The PT Boat Forum
http://www.ptboatforum.com/cgi-bin/MB2/netboard.cgi


Forum Category: PT Boats of WWII
http://www.ptboatforum.com/cgi-bin/MB2/netboard.cgi?cid=101&fct=showf


Forum Name: PT Boats - General
http://www.ptboatforum.com/cgi-bin/MB2/netboard.cgi?fct=gotoforum&cid=101&fid=102


Topic: Revell P.T. 109 w/WEM PE
http://www.ptboatforum.com/cgi-bin/MB2/netboardr.cgi?cid=101&fid=102&tid=2488



See below.

Posted By: robtmelvin | Posted on: Feb 12, 2012 - 11:25am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered



Obviously I'm not doing something right to get the picts to show up. Any suggestions? I use Photobucket.

TIA,

Bob

Currently building: U.S.S. Buckley (Revell 1/249) and P.T. 109 (Revell 1/72). Both with PE.

Posted By: robtmelvin | Posted on: Feb 12, 2012 - 11:26am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered



See below again. Operator error geting photos posted!

Bob

Posted By: robtmelvin | Posted on: Feb 12, 2012 - 11:32am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered



One more time!

Hello. I just completed my build up of Revell's old 1/72 scale P.T. 109 with White Ensign's PE set and some scratch building. The paint is WEM's Tropical Green from their Colourcoat line. She is meant to depict the 109 at the time of her loss. I left the mast on the boat, since there is controversy as to whether or not it was there and I just think it looks better. I hope you enjoy my humble effort. Feedback is definitely appreciated.

[image]http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j325/robtmelvin/PT109/101_0008.jpg[/image]

[image]http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j325/robtmelvin/PT109/101_0014.jpg[/image]

[image]http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j325/robtmelvin/PT109/101_0018.jpg[/image]

[image]http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j325/robtmelvin/PT109/101_0021.jpg[/image]

[image]http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j325/robtmelvin/PT109/101_0020.jpg[/image]

[image]http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j325/robtmelvin/PT109/101_0019.jpg[/image]

Thanks for looking,

Bob


Currently building: P.T. 596 (Italieri 1/35); and U.S.S. Laffey (Dragon 1/350).

Posted By: robtmelvin | Posted on: Feb 12, 2012 - 11:37am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered



Two more. Thanks for your patience!

[image]http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j325/robtmelvin/PT109/101_0008.jpg[/image]

[image]http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j325/robtmelvin/PT109/101_0014.jpg[/image]

Bob

Currently building: P.T. 596 (Italieri 1/35); and U.S.S. Laffey (Dragon 1/350).

Posted By: robtmelvin | Posted on: Feb 12, 2012 - 11:39am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered



Hi Bob,
Welcome to the forum! I by no means am an expert on PT109, but I did rebuild a PT109 model last year and was faced with this same issue with securing the 37mm cannon. As a suggestion, I think you should take that godawful string off there and replace it with tan or brown colored sewing thread. The scale of the existing string looks just too large to properly represent the line they most likely would have used. I also guessed they would have tied the 37mm cannon down to more substantial anchors than the toe rails. The toe rail is not very strong and would have probably snapped the first time the gun was shot. I bet instead of the toe rails, they used the king post and the two forward cleats. I see you already used the kingpost, but I cant tell if you used the cleats. If you think about absorbing the recoil of the gun, I bet they tied it in two separate but identical triangles. Each triangle started at the axle of the gun on each side (right and left) then to the kingpost then to the cleat on that same side as the axle and then back to the axle. I dont think they would require any ropes to be tied to the trails of the gun since they would serve no purpose in absorbing recoil.

I also think maybe you would want to make the length of those 2x8 boards below the cannon a little bit longer. If you calculate the scale length, I bet they used at least 8 foot long or possibly 10 foot long boards. The ones you have just seem to be too short.

Like I said I am not an expert and there are several members of this board who are much more knowledgable than me, but for what its worth I figured I would give you my feedback! Take care and keep up the good work!

Jerry PT658 Portland OR

Jerry Gilmartin

Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Feb 12, 2012 - 12:01pm
Total Posts: 1288 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm



I have to agree with Jerry on this one. The white string you used is way to large, and would look much better by using a thinner brown or tan thread to represent the tie down of the 37mm cannon. You may also want to add some coiled rope in sections of the deck, and add some helmets in areas of the guns. I am not sure how you pained the boat, but it seems like there are many rough spots, almost like the spray was too thick on the spray gun, or if you used a spray can, the nozzle was a bit clogged. Not being a modeler myself ( I have my boats done foe my Exhibit) I am not sure how you can fix the rough spots.

I am not trying to be critical of your work, but you asked and posted the shots, so there you have it. I am not that fond of the color you choose for the boat, which seems a bit too green for my taste. I am sure some of the true model builders here can really help you, they know their business very well..............



Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Feb 12, 2012 - 2:25pm
Total Posts: 3269 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am



I have to agree that the cord I used to simulate the rope that would have held the 37 mm in place did not turn out very good. I actually found some hemp cord, which is what I used, thinking it would be a good substitute for the hemp rope used at the time. Unfortunately, the cord was a bit large to thread through the toe rails and it tended to fray, though it does not look nearly as bad in person as it does in the photos. I'm looking around for a replacement for it and if anybody has any suggestions I'd love to hear them. Also, all the other 109 models I've seen have the line securing the 37 mm do run through the toe railing.

As to the color used, I decided on WEM's Tropical Green after consulting with John at WEM. Apparently MTB Green would not be correct for a boat at that time. Since there is no reliable proof as to what color the 109 was painted at the time of her loss, I elected to defer to John's expertise, as WEM produces the only accurate line of USN World War II paints I am aware of .

As to the rough nature of the paint job, that was intentional. I wanted to depict a battle worn veteran boat operating in a hostile environment, scorched by the tropical sun, inundated by tropical rains and salt water, and not having the benefit of regular maintenance. I would assume that the 109 would have looked rather rough at the time of her loss, hardly factory fresh, and that was the look I was going for.

Bob

Currently building: P.T. 596 (Italieri 1/35); and U.S.S. Laffey (Dragon 1/350).

Posted By: robtmelvin | Posted on: Feb 13, 2012 - 1:13pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered



Hi Bob,
Thanks for sharing your work with us. I appreciate what you were trying to accomplish in the finish. I'm trying to figure something out for my current project on how to replicate a worn and sun stained deck. I've been toying with the idea of salt weathering but I'm not sure if that's going to work for me.

As the others have mentioned changing out the rope will probably improve the look a great deal. My friend Jerry has been trying to get me to change how I tied it down on my boat but honestly I'm scared to mess with it. Jerry Gilmartin (different that the other Jerry) indicated that it was tied down to the cleats. Not sure if it's right or not but that's how I did mine. If I remember right the purpose of strapping it to the timbers and lashing it to the deck was temporary. The intention was to create a more secure mounting later. I can't imagine what would have happened if they fired that thing off the way it was secured at the time of her sinking. JFK would probably have lost his legs as it passed through the chart house and through the helm. I'm being facetious of course.

Again I hope you enjoyed it and we'll look forward to your Italeri Elco model.

Take care
Dave

David Waples

Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Feb 13, 2012 - 8:14pm
Total Posts: 1637 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm



Hi Bob

I can see what you were trying to do with the weathering. I spoke to a few friends of mine, who said you can achieve those results by trying to use pastels. For the most part, PT's that were out in the Combat Zone, would have had some faded paint, more so on the tops of the cabin structures. Constant standing on the decks, rain, sun, all played a part in the wearing out process. Alex Johnson, who visits this site, did our PT-374 Memorial project and weathered the boat. Not too much, but enough so that the boat did not look like she did coming out of the Elco Factory. Another builder, who visit's this site is Frank Ryczek, who has boat loads of experience in weathering.

I admit, it is not easy to duplicate this process, but from what I was told pastels and sealing it with dull coat does a pretty good job. If you would like E mails from these guys, just E Mail me and I will be happy to share them.



Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Feb 14, 2012 - 1:49am
Total Posts: 3269 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am



Weathering can be a tough thing to duplicate and a very personal choice. Here's some examples of these boats after exposure to the tropical sun. There's a number of ways to achieve the look from pastels as Frank mentioned to lightening up panels like the guys do with airplanes by introducing white or light gray (my preference) to the base color. Trust me, you could write a book on the subject. As you can see with this particular example some brown tones are in order as well.

[IMAGE]http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n27/David_Waples/PT%20BOATS/PT-61CheifTorpedoman.jpg[/IMAGE]

Same deck and same boat with water on it.

[IMAGE]http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n27/David_Waples/PT%20BOATS/PT-61crewJuly1943.jpg[/IMAGE]

Another view showing how chalky the paint can become.
[IMAGE]http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n27/David_Waples/PT%20BOATS/PT-109colorreference-1.jpg[/IMAGE]

Again I think it's a personal preference and like any artist it's up to the modeler to choose which method they are comfortable with and provides the results they find pleasing.
Dave



David Waples

Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Feb 14, 2012 - 5:20am
Total Posts: 1637 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm



Duplicate post. See below. Thanks for your patience.

Bob

Posted By: robtmelvin | Posted on: Feb 14, 2012 - 6:19am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered



David, thanks for your kind comments. First, let me express my thanks to you for your unknowing help on this build. I used your P.T. 109 in the modelwarships gallery as my guide and inspiration in this build. While my 109 is not up to the standards of yours, you did provide me with much guidance and no small amount of inspiration in my build. Particularly, your work on the shielding around the cockpit was a great help to me in modifying the kit parts to reflect the correct configuration.

Unfortunately, my scratch building and weathering skills are pretty basic at this point. I came back to the hobby about 3 years ago after over 35 years away and I still have so much to learn. I felt that, within the limits of my skills, the best way to show the weathered deck, considering that the 109 was a battle scarred veteran even when Kennedy took command, and that she was subjected to the harsh climate of the Solomon Islands, including exposure to salt water, and a lack of maintenance that would have been common to boats in advanced areas like Tulagi and Rendova, was to shoot the paint in such a way as to give it a rather rough appearance. It may not have been the best approach, but we have to work with the skills we have.

As to the paint color, I selected WEM's Tropical Green after consulting with the folks at White Ensign. Since they produce the most accurate line of paints for USN World War II colors, I was inclined to defer to their suggestions. Also, there is really no hard evidence as to the colors she wore at the time of her loss, a subject that has been heavily debated on this and other forums.

My biggest disappointment in the way she turned out was the way the cord securing the 37 mm turned out. I actually found some hemp cord, which I felt would be a good representation of the hemp rope used at that time. The main problem is that it is just too large for the scale and I would like to replace it with something more appropriate. May I ask what you used to replicate this on your build as shown on the modelwarships gallery?

Like you, I can only imagine what would have happened if they had tried to fire that thing the way it was lashed down. I suspect you are right about the significant remodeling of the chart house, at a minimum.

Thanks again for your nice comments. They mean a lot to me coming from you! Any advice you could give me on a replacement for the cord securing the 37 mm will be greatly appreciated.

Bob

Currently building: P.T. 596 (Italieri 1/35); and U.S.S. Laffey (Dragon 1/350).

Posted By: robtmelvin | Posted on: Feb 14, 2012 - 8:56am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered



I'm not sure that the 37mm was lashed to the 109 with the intent of being able to fire. More like an anti-theft measure. Geary Sims of pt108lilduck.com researched the gun mounting and is the reason I think this. Per Geary:

[green]Reference the 37mm gun: Doing extensive research on PT 108 which also had the same 37mm gun, I found there are some myths. One, the 37mm anti-tank wasn't found, in fact there were 8 to 10 boats that had/were to have this mounting. It was an experimental mounting to see if the 37mm gun was effective against the Daihatsu barges. The guns came from and were mounted by members of the US Army 25th Infantry Division. From conversations with Dick Keresey and some of the 108 crew, Kennedy may have been the one who came up with the idea for the mounting.[/green]

[green]Secondly, the newer mountings were not salvaged from P-39's. They were adapted by the Navy and the Elco plant to fit the PT Boats. The 108 received one plus the roll-off torpedoes.[/green]

[green]The 109 was slated for the mounting of the 37mm on her return from that mission. That is why she had the lumber lashed to the deck. Didn't want to leave on the dock for it might not be there when they got back.[/green]

This page lists some good model ship rigging sources Bob:
[url]http://www.mysite.verizon.net/ELLshipmodeler/thread.htm[/url]




Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Feb 14, 2012 - 10:21am
Total Posts: 2042 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am



Hi Bob,
I used some Manila Hemp ships rigging that I bought from Model Expo. It's a little stiff but if you wash it and break it down a little it's very workable. A tip I got from my friend Jerry Beasley. I don't remember which size I used though.

http://www.modelexpo-online.com/search.asp?SKW=cat1_MR%20cat2_3@

David Waples

Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Feb 15, 2012 - 5:13am
Total Posts: 1637 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm



Hi Bob,
I used some Manila Hemp ships rigging that I bought from Model Expo. It's a little stiff but if you wash it and break it down a little it's very workable. A tip I got from my friend Jerry Beasley. I don't remember which size I used though.

http://www.modelexpo-online.com/search.asp?SKW=cat1_MR%20cat2_3@

David Waples

Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Feb 15, 2012 - 6:02am
Total Posts: 1637 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm



David, thanks for the tip. I'll check into getting some of the hemp you used and replace the stuff that's on there now. I think the biggest problem with what I used is that it is simply too big. It was also pretty stiff.

Bob

Currently building: P.T. 596 (Italieri 1/35); and U.S.S. Laffey (Dragon 1/350).

Posted By: robtmelvin | Posted on: Feb 15, 2012 - 7:00am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered



Ahoy there Robert-

I have to agree with ol' Frankie Andruss, the "string" that you used to secure the 37 to the bow is way oversized. That looks like a hauser rope for a tug boat. I would go with a smaller type of tan thread, wax it first, then add to the finished model.

As for the weathering, it's an art in itself. Put on too much and it's overbearing, too little and it's hardly noticeable. Can I make a suggestion to you! Pick up a Micro Mark catalog and order yourself a set of DOC BROWN'S weathering powders.

I have used these powders on the PT 374 project vehicles for Frank Andruss's museum quality model. You can find pictures of the project bylooking through the back pages of the message board.

The neat thing about these weathering powders, is that it's almost foolproof. If you make a mistake, the powders wash off with sudsy warm water. You can apply the powders with a a "blunt" brush, a brush with rounded bristles or wet with water for a washed and streaked effect. A little goes a long way.

For wood models I use a product called WEATHER-IT also available from Micro Mark or a really good hobby shop might stock it as well. You'll find it with the model railroad stuff. Once again the Weather-It is foolproof BUT you can only use it on unpainted wood.

Check out the shots of the PT-374 project and you'll see my custom made shacks which were weather with this stuff.

Lot's of luck modeling, and I hope these tips help you out some what!

Frank Ryczek, Jr.
Modeler/ Friend PT-169 " ZEBRA SNAFU" RON 10 Base Tulagi

HIGH TIDES ALWAYS!

YOUR FRIEND THROUGH SCALE SHIP MODELING AND PT BOAT HISTORY!

Posted By: FRANK | Posted on: Feb 18, 2012 - 11:03am
Total Posts: 349 | Joined: Oct 7, 2007 - 2:09pm