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Forum Category: PT Boats of WWII
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Forum Name: PT Boats - General
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Topic: Interior color of .50 Cal Turrets
http://www.ptboatforum.com/cgi-bin/MB2/netboardr.cgi?cid=101&fid=102&tid=2225



Hi guys!

I've been working on the turrets on my 1/72 revell boat and was wondering about the interior color of the .50 cal turrets.

On this webpage the modeller shows the interior being gray.

http://www.pt103.comPT_Boat_Components_Browning_50_Cal_M2_Twin_Mount_Mark_17.html

But, he may have done that just to highlight the different components of his 3D model.

Would the actual boats have been painted this way?

Thanks,

GregB



Posted By: GregB | Posted on: Jun 18, 2011 - 10:44am
Total Posts: 32 | Joined: May 12, 2011 - 9:08am



Insides of the turrets are usually painted in which color you are using for the boat. It would make no sense to paint the boat, say forest green and make the insides gray. At 1/72 scale it is pretty tough to see inside the gun tubs, so green, if you choose this would be the way to go. If making the boat gray, then go with gray as well.



Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Jun 18, 2011 - 10:48am
Total Posts: 3269 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am



Well, when I copy and paste the link I provided it doesn't seem to work.

The web page is http://www.pt103.com/index.html. Hope that works.

Then select - . 50 Cal Twin Mount Mark 17





Posted By: GregB | Posted on: Jun 18, 2011 - 10:49am
Total Posts: 32 | Joined: May 12, 2011 - 9:08am



Frank,

Thanks. I suspected as much but really liked the idea of the gray interior. Gives things a bit of contrast on an all green boat.

GregB



Posted By: GregB | Posted on: Jun 18, 2011 - 11:18am
Total Posts: 32 | Joined: May 12, 2011 - 9:08am



Greg

There is no stopping you from painting it say a darker gray color, which would not stick out as much as say a lighter gray. I have seen them black, and I have seen them Gray, but mostly painted as the same color of the boat..........all of my museum models done by Master model builder, Stan Pienkowski, and Alex Johnson are done in the same color as the boat.



Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Jun 18, 2011 - 1:43pm
Total Posts: 3269 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am



OK, I'll play my usual cynical self. From what credible primary source does this color answer come????????[:-devil-:]

Al Ross



Posted By: alross2 | Posted on: Jun 18, 2011 - 2:48pm
Total Posts: 920 | Joined: Oct 30, 2006 - 8:19pm



No source Al, other then all of the models I have seen over the years. I have shots of the insides of the turrets as do others, but nothing in color. I base my comments only on what I have seen in model building and not Elco, Higgins, or Huckings drawings or specs.



Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Jun 18, 2011 - 3:06pm
Total Posts: 3269 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am



The pt103.com site is mine Greg, but I'm not sure what the interior color of the turrets was as manufactured or after repainting in the field. I made it the same as the exterior.

The only color information I've found was from a build manual for the 565-624 boats which can be viewed at [url]http://www.hnsa.org/doc/pt/specs/index.htm#pg13[/url]:

[green]Superstructure shall be primed and finished with three coats formula 511 special haze gray, final coat in accordance with latest camouflage instructions. Decks shall be primed, fastening holes filled with Navy formula 62 smoothing cement Navy Dept. Spec. 52C25 and finished with two coats nonskid deck paint, in accordance with latest camouflage instructions.[/green]

The only color photo of a turret interior I've seen shows an earlier series Elco with the limiting stop interior painted the same as the exterior. It can be seen at [url]http://www.ptboats.org/cgi-local/sitenetbbs/netboardr.cgi?fid=102&cid=101&tid=567&sc=20&pg=1&x=0[/url]

Hopefully a veteran can help us out.




Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Jun 18, 2011 - 5:26pm
Total Posts: 2044 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am



My understanding is that anything you can see (aside from things like the guns, radio antenna rod, helm instrument panel, etc ) was to be painted. There would be no reason to leave out the turret interior in a paint program. However for accuracy I'll ask Liebenow and West of the PT-157 on Monday and ask them if nothing definitive from anyone else shows up today on the Board.

My thought is that the reason for painting PT was help the PT's blend into the overhanging brush under which they frequently stayed along rivers during the day (where they would be after the previous night's missions) and/or to better blend in the sea when they did travel during the day... to avoid, in both cases, aerial attack. So the whole boat, turrets and all, inside as well would make sense. Having two gray turrets (inside) wouldn't be what these guys wanted.

For model making purposes I would, as I did on the 157 model, make the inside of the turret a slightly darker shade of the PT's green as it gives more 'depth' as the indies of turrets are,by the nature, an area into which not much light gets into. The green shade of your model is not 'technically' accurate but in modeling terms it is.

BTW, for what its worth about 'hiding' a PT....As I listen to Captain Liebenow and his frequent helmsman Welford West talk, a major consideration when traveling about in a PT was the WAKE the boat left behind. They become pointer's to the boat's location even if the boat is not visible (from the air) The best way to 'hide' was to cut engines and make the wake go away. After that, from the air, a PT is very hard to spot.

Bridge



Posted By: TheBridge | Posted on: Jun 19, 2011 - 7:45am
Total Posts: 302 | Joined: Nov 22, 2009 - 3:04pm



My understanding is that anything you can see (aside from things like the guns, radio antenna rod, helm instrument panel, etc ) was to be painted. There would be no reason to leave out the turret interior in a paint program. However for accuracy I'll ask Liebenow and West of the PT-157 on Monday and ask them if nothing definitive from anyone else shows up today on the Board.

My thought is that the reason for painting PT was help the PT's blend into the overhanging brush under which they frequently stayed along rivers during the day (where they would be after the previous night's missions) and/or to better blend in the sea when they did travel during the day... to avoid, in both cases, aerial attack. So the whole boat, turrets and all, inside as well would make sense. Having two gray turrets (inside) wouldn't be what these guys wanted.

For model making purposes I would, as I did on the 157 model, make the inside of the turret a slightly darker shade of the PT's green as it gives more 'depth' as the indies of turrets are,by the nature, an area into which not much light gets into. The green shade of your model is not 'technically' accurate but in modeling terms it is.

BTW, for what its worth about 'hiding' a PT....As I listen to Captain Liebenow and his frequent helmsman Welford West talk, a major consideration when traveling about in a PT was the WAKE the boat left behind. They become pointer's to the boat's location even if the boat is not visible (from the air) The best way to 'hide' was to cut engines and make the wake go away. After that, from the air, a PT is very hard to spot.

Bridge



Posted By: TheBridge | Posted on: Jun 19, 2011 - 8:45am
Total Posts: 302 | Joined: Nov 22, 2009 - 3:04pm



Well,

If one goes by the photo alluded to by Jeff, I'd say that the interior would be the same color as the rest of the boat. I said that based on what I saw in that photo and nothing more. Essentially, going by PHOTOGRAPHIC EVIDENCE ...

That said, I have NEVER seen a photo of the interior so, understandably, I don't know what to say. I can only comment and only feel confident in commenting on what I saw and gleamed from that color photo.

Take my comment for what it's worth and in the SPIRIT of which I made it. I'm just trying to help.

Garth


The pt103.com site is mine Greg, but I'm not sure what the interior color of the turrets was as manufactured or after repainting in the field. I made it the same as the exterior.

The only color information I've found was from a build manual for the 565-624 boats which can be viewed at [url]http://www.hnsa.org/doc/pt/specs/index.htm#pg13[/url]:

[green]Superstructure shall be primed and finished with three coats formula 511 special haze gray, final coat in accordance with latest camouflage instructions. Decks shall be primed, fastening holes filled with Navy formula 62 smoothing cement Navy Dept. Spec. 52C25 and finished with two coats nonskid deck paint, in accordance with latest camouflage instructions.[/green]

The only color photo of a turret interior I've seen shows an earlier series Elco with the limiting stop interior painted the same as the exterior. It can be seen at [url]http://www.ptboats.org/cgi-local/sitenetbbs/netboardr.cgi?fid=102&cid=101&tid=567&sc=20&pg=1&x=0[/url]

Hopefully a veteran can help us out.







Posted By: TGConnelly | Posted on: Jun 19, 2011 - 10:04am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered



Bridge: As for "hiding a PT." Most of the time we never knew enemy planes were around until they would drop a bomb on you. You cannot see a unlighted plane at night unless they are between you and the moon and the Japs made sure they didn't get between you and the moon. We were bombed several times while patroling up around Rabaul. Fortunately they all missed the boat. Our proceedure was to get underway full speed and zig zag to a rain cloud in the area if one was around. I recall being bombed one morning leaving the patrol area. We
had just gotten underway cruising. I had laid down on my life jacket on the bow to get a little sleep. The bomb hit off the starboard bow close enough to splash water over the bow and get me wet. We never heard or saw the plane. I never did get my nap in that morning.

I believe the inside of my turret and ammunition boxes were painted green. That was the color that came from Higgins. We never repainted the inside of the turrets while I was aboard 242.

C. J. Willis

Posted By: CJ Willis | Posted on: Jun 19, 2011 - 10:49am
Total Posts: 464 | Joined: Nov 5, 2006 - 5:02pm



So, Mr. Willis?

You're saying that the interior of the turrets were the same color of the boats, sir?

Garth



Posted By: TGConnelly | Posted on: Jun 19, 2011 - 11:02am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered



Garth: Our boat was two shades of green camoflage. I believe the turrets were the darker shade.

C. J. Willis

Posted By: CJ Willis | Posted on: Jun 19, 2011 - 12:17pm
Total Posts: 464 | Joined: Nov 5, 2006 - 5:02pm



Hey wait a minute!
I thought they painted the interior of the gun turrets the same color green as the PT109? Can we please have another pointless arguement that will go on forever like that one did? Please? Maybe Day-Glo Orange would work best. I think the gunner would stand out as a target really good that way. Safe to assume they were same inside and out, whether or not you have photographic evidence of it. Sheesh. Modelers. Jerry

OK maybe I am venting just a little bit. Sorry

Jerry Gilmartin

Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Jun 19, 2011 - 3:48pm
Total Posts: 1290 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm



Hey wait a minute!
I thought they painted the interior of the gun turrets the same color green as the PT109? Can we please have another pointless arguement that will go on forever like that one did? Please? Maybe Day-Glo Orange would work best. I think the gunner would stand out as a target really good that way. Safe to assume they were same inside and out, whether or not you have photographic evidence of it. Sheesh. Modelers. Jerry

OK maybe I am venting just a little bit. Sorry

Jerry Gilmartin

Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Jun 19, 2011 - 3:48pm
Total Posts: 1290 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm



Oh come on, Jerry! If we don't know what color the turret interiors are, how are we going to coordinate the gunners' outfits?

Will

Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Jun 19, 2011 - 5:04pm
Total Posts: 1954 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm



Just shoot me......................




Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Jun 19, 2011 - 8:40pm
Total Posts: 3269 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am



LOL!

Will

Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Jun 19, 2011 - 10:53pm
Total Posts: 1954 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm



I tend to agree with Jerry ...

BUT ... There are modelers out there who do want 110.9999999% accuracy ...

Mr. Willis, I just want to thank you for answering my question.

It's my opinion, and it's ONLY an opinion ...

In regard to things like the interior colors of the turrets, I think modelers should use a common sense rule of them. Consider how much of the object is visible, would/could be visible and strive to get it as accurate as you can, ....

If you or others can't see it without the use of a microscope or microcamera ... don't worry about it ...

Though ... I am sure that SOME here will blast me for that opinion because as a published author, I'm purported to be an "expert" ... All I'm saying is don't go overboard ...

Garth



Posted By: TGConnelly | Posted on: Jun 20, 2011 - 6:42am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered



I trust you Jerry. I've changed my turret graphic to Day-Glo Orange inside and out. I must say it looks real good and blends well under a canopy of citrus. The aft section could also use some color so I may go with the red-as..., er, stern, painted hull also.




Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Jun 20, 2011 - 8:18am
Total Posts: 2044 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am



Thanks you guys. Hey Will , I think I am going to go out and get a day-glo orange jumpsuit for next time I manthe 50 cal turret on PT658. I just hope the local Police Officers dont get the wrong idea! Jerry

Jerry Gilmartin

Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Jun 20, 2011 - 11:31am
Total Posts: 1290 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm



Here Jerry, try my Elco on for size:

[image]http://www.pt103.com/images/asst/orangeTurretTest.jpg[/image]




Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Jun 20, 2011 - 1:17pm
Total Posts: 2044 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am



Say Jeff,
I think we may have something here! Kind of like the Red Baron idea, paint the whole boat outlandish colors then just dare somebody to shoot at our boat! Yeah thats the ticket! Jerry

Jerry Gilmartin

Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Jun 20, 2011 - 1:43pm
Total Posts: 1290 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm



Hi Greg,
If you're still with us, and who would blame you if you weren't, I'll try to help. I'm looking at a photo of an aft turret interior in Victor Chun's book. It's dark (not white) which is all we can tell from the black and white photo. Al Ross' book shows a 77' Elco where the turret walls are white. PT interiors were painted white. This before the turret ring was dropped in. So even if the interior was white it would be hard to see once the turret ring is dropped in. So depending on the boat, the time, and the color I suspect you could have numerous options. Before the 109 was green she was most probably dark gray and who knows, they could have just left the turret interior dark gray after painting the rest of the boat green. It's just something we will never know unless somebody who was there can educate us.

For your model I would recommend either going with a dark gray or darken up your turret color considerably. Me personally, I would go with the latter. If you look at photos of these turrets light is trapped in there and you will want it to be much darker that it was actually painted on the exterior anyway.

I hope that helps. I hope you will share your finished model with us.

Dave

David Waples

Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Jun 20, 2011 - 8:20pm
Total Posts: 1637 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm



Dave,

I'm still here, just didn't see the need to reply to the smart-a$$ replies. As for your answers, this part of your reply here is what I was thinking.

(Before the 109 was green she was most probably dark gray and who knows, they could have just left the turret interior dark gray after painting the rest of the boat green. It's just something we will never know unless somebody who was there can educate us.)

Also, I really wasn't talking about deep inside the turret, although my question was a bit vague. I was thinking more about the interior part that can be seen. Where the ammo was stored for the .50 cals. I don't have a camera so I can't really post a pic of what i'm talking about.

Anyway, I'm doing one of the early 80-foot boats. So it's quite possible that the boat was painted gray then overpainted green in the field.

Since it's my model and no one really has a definite answer I'll probably paint it the way I want it.

Just thought I would ask here first before deciding on a course.

Also, I will try to post pictures of the model here when it's done. I'll have to
borrow a camera. However, I am a very slow builder so who knows when
the thing will be completed.

The more I modify/change/correct the more things I find that need to be
modified/changed/corrected. It's like a never ending story.

Thanks,
GregB



Posted By: GregB | Posted on: Jun 21, 2011 - 9:27am
Total Posts: 32 | Joined: May 12, 2011 - 9:08am



Sorry Greg,
I was not trying to be a smart a$$. Just having a little fun. Jerry

Jerry Gilmartin

Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Jun 21, 2011 - 11:14am
Total Posts: 1290 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm



Jerry,

No offense taken. I realize one has to have thick skin posting on a message board these days. I just choose to ignore the ones that aren't related to my original question. Life is too short to get uptight about these things.

Thanks,
GregB



Posted By: GregB | Posted on: Jun 21, 2011 - 11:24am
Total Posts: 32 | Joined: May 12, 2011 - 9:08am



Hi GregB,
A little while ago number of colour photos were posted of the PT 61, two of these photos show the top interior visible area of the gun tubs, I know this is a 77' Boat but she is shown alngside an 80 ' and is painted green as is the 80' Boat, hope this helps a little.

D.buck

Posted By: David Buck | Posted on: Jun 21, 2011 - 5:27pm
Total Posts: 332 | Joined: May 4, 2008 - 2:59am



Greg,
Was there a specific boat you wanted to model? Here's some information that was included in my 1:48 PT-103 class instructions curtesy of Dr. Ross. South Pacific color schemes for early Elcos....

1. Standard Gray - Everything from the deck up Dark Gray 5D. The hull excluding the deck Light Gray 5. You see this on early boats coming out of the factory.

2. Measure 1 - Dark Gray 5D throughout. There's color photos supporting this.

3. Tropical Green - This was a field created green color which is similar to 5NG but different. It looks to me like it has a hint of turquoise but understand that there is probably some color shifting that has occurred. The color photo referred to earlier of the 77' Elco's next to the green 80' Elco is attached. The green boat on the starboard side was reported to be PT-109 by Mr. Prescott who served on this 77' Elco. This is very controversial but if you go with a green similar to 5NG I think you'll be happy with your results... if you want a green boat. You be the judge.

Note: The photos as originally posted are more clear than my copies below. Worth a look to find them in the forum.

I hope that helps. Have fun with your build.
Dave



[IMAGE]http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n27/David_Waples/PT%20BOATS/PT-61crewJuly1943.jpg[/IMAGE]
[IMAGE]http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n27/David_Waples/PT%20BOATS/PT-61Prescottphotos.jpg[/IMAGE]
[IMAGE]http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n27/David_Waples/PT%20BOATS/PT-61crewJuly1943.jpg[/IMAGE]
[IMAGE]http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n27/David_Waples/PT%20BOATS/PT-61CheifTorpedoman.jpg[/IMAGE]
David Waples

Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Jun 21, 2011 - 7:15pm
Total Posts: 1637 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm



David,

I have seen those pictures. I have not decided on a specific boat number. But it will
be green (a faded green). Hopefully when finished, this boat will look combat used.
I plan on showing it in the water.

I will probably make it one of the squadron 6 boats with the SO radar, torpedo tubes,
an a 37mm automatic on the bow.

But I'm a long way from the end.

GregB



Posted By: GregB | Posted on: Jun 21, 2011 - 8:00pm
Total Posts: 32 | Joined: May 12, 2011 - 9:08am



Have you seen the video on youtube of the PT-109 build? I thought he did a nice job with that one. We'll look forward to seeing your build.
Take care
Dave

David Waples

Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Jun 21, 2011 - 8:54pm
Total Posts: 1637 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm



GregB - can you send me your email address to bridge@PT-157.com

Thanks




Posted By: TheBridge | Posted on: Jun 21, 2011 - 9:43pm
Total Posts: 302 | Joined: Nov 22, 2009 - 3:04pm