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Topic: Color photos of PT-103, 105, 107 |
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David Waples
TOP BOSS
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Posted on: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:57pm
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Does anyone have or know where to find color photos of these boats? I'm especially interested in their color once the boats transferred to Rendova.
There seems to be a lot of confusion about the actual color. I've been told "Battleship Gray", "Forest Green", "MTB Green", "Tropical Green" etc. In the photos I've seen published during this transition to Rendova the boats look much darker than they were when transferred to this area.
I've been working on PT-105 for many years now and I'm stuck on the color because I really want to get this right, or as close to right as I can get.
Any help is very much appreciated.
Thank you
Dave
David Waples |
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TGarth Connelly
Advanced Member
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 Posted on: Jan 3, 2007 - 4:20am
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David,
That's opened for debate sir.
Like you - I've been told the same array of colors. I've even been criticized for taken a vet's assertion that his boat was Olive Drab. The way I look at it is this; you're in a forward area, you need to get your boat painted, maybe the quartermaster doesn't have ample amounts of Green 2, Green 3, MTB Green, Tropical Green or Navy Green and he "borrows" some Olive Drab paint from a nearby Marine or Army unit and gives it to you.
My suggestion is; paint it in either Tropical Green or Navy Green with a Norfolk 65-A Anti-fouling Red bottom and maybe, just lighten the green (whichever green) to simulate bleaching by the sun.
Garth
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Will Day
New Member
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Posted on: Jan 3, 2007 - 9:38am
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David: I concur with Garth's assessment on the boat colors. There is ample evidence that the Solomons PTs were painted (and repainted) with whatever greens were available or could be concocted. They were used hard and were at the end of an awfully long supply line.
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Russell Pullano
Advanced Member
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Posted on: Jan 3, 2007 - 11:22am
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Garth, I hate to be critical of you , but being a quartermaster on a pt boat, I sort of feel humiliated to think that someone thinks that a quartermaster hands out paint, or any other supplies. That's the job of a quartermaster in the army
In the navy, a QM is sort of an assistant to the navigator, he signals, he attends the helm, he keeps a log,etc. His duties are carried out in the bridge of the ship,
On a PT boat, we signaled,kept the log, boxed the compass,navigated, were aware of moonrise, moonset, high tide, low tide , attended the radar,etc. During patrols we alternated on watches, with the radioman ,contacted the base, other boats, aircraft. So you see, if we wanted paint we got it from the storekeeper.
This is not meant to be sarcastic, but to give you some idea of what a quartermaster is. I hope you accept this as helping you increase your knowledge of the boats that you seem to treasure.
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TGarth Connelly
Advanced Member
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Posted on: Jan 3, 2007 - 11:48am
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Mr. Pullano,
I meant no disrespect of your Rank sir. I was using the term that my father used to say where they acquired paint. My father was the Bosun on SC-699 in 1944-46 and he said, "We'd go up to the Quartermaster Shack and picked up the paint."
From the way he used the term - I took it as being a base personnel rating. I apologize.
Garth
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David Waples |
TOP BOSS
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Posted on: Jan 3, 2007 - 6:47pm
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Hey Garth,
Thanks for the reply. At some point I need to give in and just go for it. I just can't buy the Tropical Green color from looking at the photos of these boats. Clearly these boats were painted about the same color when transferred from Panama. These are the photos that show the boats with depth charges in place of the stern torpedoes. They seemed to stay this color up until some point before they relocated to Rendova. At that point they were painted another color. If you look at PT-103 and PT-107 they are the same color again but clearly much darker than when they originally arrived in the theatre.
So that's my dilemma. I thought I would give it one more shot to see if maybe one of the veterans recalls what was done with the paint at this specific point in time, or maybe a photo has surfaced in the last couple of years since I posted questions on the subject.
Your point about the paint is well taken. Looking at the photos of PT-109 on the foredeck you would almost think that the port torpedo tube is painted differently than the rest of the boat. Maybe so since they had a misfire incident with this tube in high seas. It could be quite a mutt at this point and it's hard to say if she was ever painted like the 103 and 107 boats before going to Rendova and ultimately sunk. I know that Donovan wrote in his book that the 109 was painted "forest green" and a veteran that was involved in repainting these boats recalls stripping off "forest green" paint from the boats in this squadron.
As always thanks for your input and insight on this issue. Happy New Year to you.
Dave
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David Waples
TOP BOSS
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Posted on: Jan 3, 2007 - 7:05pm
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Let's give this photo business a go....
My goal is to determine the color of the boats in these images...If I were just looking at them I would have said Dick Keresey was right, they're battleship gray. But are they really dark green??? Hopefully there's a veteran that can add some light... or in this case color.
Thank you
David Waples |
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C Marin Faure
New Member
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Posted on: Jan 3, 2007 - 11:11pm
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FWIW I have a video copy of a film that was produced by Elco during the war. I'm sure many other people in this group have the same video, which is called "Giant Killers." It's a color film about how Elco built the boats. At the end of the video they show completed boats being run through their sea trials. There is no copyright date in the open or closing titles of the film so I have no idea when it was made. However at least one of the boats being shown in sea trials has the aft-mounted 40mm instead of the earlier 20mm. One of the boats displays the number 466. At least the second two numbers look like sixes-- the first number is definitely a "4."
With one exception all of the boats in this film are grey with dull red antifouling paint on the bottoms. The exception is a boat that has a camoflage scheme of battlship gray with white splotches breaking up the gray.
In the film the boats exhibit a number of different shades of gray, but I believe this is due to the differences in lighting, the exposures used by the cameramen, and the film processing and printing. I suspect that the color gray used by the factory was pretty standardized.
In the begining of the film there are scenes of Elco executives and engineers at work. Some of the scenes show large PT models on the desks, All the models are painted battleship gray with dull red bottoms.
C. Marin Faure
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TGarth Connelly
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Posted on: Jan 4, 2007 - 4:06am
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David -
Just between you, me and the bedpost, I think the 109 was either Navy Green or Olive Drab. But, I normally get criticized for holding that believe.
Garth
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David Waples
TOP BOSS
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Posted on: Jan 4, 2007 - 5:50am
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Garth
Here are a couple of other photos of the 107 boat and 109 boat. These were taken at Panama. It is my understanding that they were painted green here by mixing red and yellow paint. True? I don't know for sure but I'm told this was relayed by a crew member that was there when they were painted.
Compare that to the later photos of the 107 boat in route to Rendova. Same paint with different lighting? Look at the 103 boat too. Black and white photos can play tricks, and printing in books can make the issue more confusing. To me the photos taken in roue to Rendova in my earlier post look darker and with different shading. Close inspection of the 107 deck shows heavy weathering to the point where you can see primer coats or bare wood. So I doubt this was fresh paint but it could just be black and white photos playing tricks.
I've experimented mixing black and yellow paint and that can certainly give you an olive drab color or "MTB Green". And like you I've been called out about this.
When taking it to the model level one also has to account for giving the subject a scale look. In other words I wouldn't use the same paint used on the real subject on the scale subject because the color wouldn't look right in a reduced size. Or another way of saying it is what would the color look like if viewed from a distance. Much different than when you're right next to it. Hope that makes sense.
Anyway, a color photo of these boats would be huge.
Thanks everyone.
David Waples |
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