The PT Boat Forum
http://www.ptboatforum.com/cgi-bin/MB2/netboard.cgi
» Forum Category: PT Boats of WWII
http://www.ptboatforum.com/cgi-bin/MB2/netboard.cgi?cid=101&fct=showf
» Forum Name: PT Boats - General
http://www.ptboatforum.com/cgi-bin/MB2/netboard.cgi?fct=gotoforum&cid=101&fid=102
» Topic:
Question regarding small arms aboard PTs
http://www.ptboatforum.com/cgi-bin/MB2/netboardr.cgi?cid=101&fid=102&tid=991
If this has been covered before I apologize; I have done a search of the site but have not found any suitable set of topics.
I have, then, a few questions for the veterans and other informed folks on this board.
The PT familiarization pamphlet (referred and linked to by posters on this board) noted that deck crewmen normally wore a .45 holstered when at sea in the combat zone.
Were all PT sailors issued with .45s?
Was there a "standard" issue of small arms for PTs? If so, does anyone know what it was or can refer me to such information?
Where were such small arms kept? Was access restricted (keys, etc.) or were the crew sufficiently trusted to have access to small arms and ammunition? [Note that I do not intend any insult to the courageous and skilled sailors who manned the PTs during the Second World War; I have in the past worked for the federal government (civilian) and know that often the "higher ups" issue restrictions that make no sense.]
What was the "standard" or common issue of ammunition for such small arms? Where was such ammunition kept aboard a PT?
Were there . . . "unofficial" additions to the small arms lockers? If so, what were the desired "additions" and from where (and how) did the PT sailors obtain the same?
Were any non-American (esp. British or Japanese) small arms acquired by PT sailors and kept on board?
IIRC there were cases in which small arms aboard PTs were used in actions against Japanese barges. Do any of the readers on this board know any accounts of such? [IIRC John Bulkeley once boarded a Japanese barge while armed with a .45, for example.]
Did PT sailors ever conduct landing parties in Japanese-held or uncontrolled territory? What would have been the standard equipment for such landing parties? Are there any stories about same?
I know I'm asking quite a bit -- I'd rather ask too many questions (with the sure knowledge that these might well not get or justify an answer) than too few.
Thank you for considering these questions; I shall express additional thanks later.
Posted By: fredtheobviouspseudonym | Posted on: Sep 16, 2008 - 8:29pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
Fred: Check out Bulkley's book AT CLOSE QUARTERS, for starters. Lots of anticdotes in what is considered the "PT Bible". Also, I'm sure you'll get a lot of replys here on the MB.
Will
Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Sep 16, 2008 - 8:58pm
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm
Fred in answer to one of your Questions,
Did PT sailors ever conduct landing parties in Japanese-held or uncontrolled territory? What would have been the standard equipment for such landing parties? Are there any stories about same?
Im reading the Book,HELL ON KEELS at the moment,kindly lent to me by a member of Ron 12,which is what the book is about.
Just today i read a chapter where a PT Boat Crew went ashore to investigate a Japanese Base,gladly they came out alright.
HELL ON KEELS
The Saga of Motor Torpedo Boat Squadron 12
A Story of Wooden Boats And Iron Men
by Rick Desloge
Cheers
Michael
Posted By: Michael | Posted on: Sep 16, 2008 - 11:53pm
Total Posts: 218 | Joined: Aug 6, 2007 - 7:25pm
No doubt that PT BOAT CREWS were scroungers. Any good Chief Gunner Mate certainly made sure there were plenty of small arms kept on the boat. I had a conversation with one Gunners Mate on PT 374, not 10 minutes ago.
PT 374 of Ron 27 was one boat that carried extra ammo for all of the 50 caibers guns, 37MM Cannon, 40MM Cannon, 20MM Cannon, and the 30 caliber stinger. According to Mickey McNeish ( Chief Gunners Mate 0n PT 374) he felt that by having extra ammo he insured the boat would never run out in a fire fight. In the small arms locker were kept no less then 15 .45 caliber hand guns, several M-1 Garands, 2 Tommy Guns, Flare Pistols, and of course, ammo for those guns. I would guess that each boat was different in what they had. Here, Iam only speaking for PT 374. Mickey's boat also had a Mortar on the Bow, so rounds of star shells were also caried. Stored below, were several cases of Hand grenades as well. PT 374 also carried out several foraging raids using a Dingy they had, as several crew members went ashore, decked out with rifles, tommy guns, and side arms. This is where Mickey found a Jap Rifle and other things he brought back to the boat. I have that rifle in my Exhibit.
As PT Boats operated so close to the enemy, weapons for those close encounters were certainly needed. PT Boats operated with the scouts, and OSS personel, bringing them to certain spots for drop off. Many photo's exsist showing PT BOAT CREWMEMBERS with side arms, and a variety of weapons, not part of the Factory set up.
Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Sep 17, 2008 - 3:08pm
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am
Hi there Frank.
You mentioned a crew member bringing back a Japanese rifle to the boat. I wonder if it was an Arisaka rifle? If it was I have yet another idea for a PT boat diorama or vignette. You see I happen to have a few Arisaka rifles in 1/35 scale from the old Tamiya 1/35 scale Japanese Infantry set of four figures.
Cheers from Peter
"Give me a faster PT boat for I'd like to get out of harm's way!"
Posted By: PeterTareBuilder | Posted on: Sep 17, 2008 - 8:53pm
Total Posts: 494 | Joined: Jun 24, 2008 - 5:59pm
Lots of the Pacific guys came home with Arisakas...Frank, you have one or two in your collection, right? I though I remember seeing a late war Type 99 with a spliced stock in the corner of the exhibit. I know PT Boats has several - there were three or four at the museum.
As for the original question - I have seen photos of Thompsons, M1 Carbines, 1911/1911A1's and M1 Garands. Frank was right about the scrounger part - I imagine it was whatever they'd get their hands on.
What did JFK have, a S+W .38 special? Victory model maybe?
My grandfather was issued a Remington-built 1903A3 when he shipped out of Norfolk - but the rifle "went away" shortly after arriving in North Africa. I think it's in Russ Hamachek's book about tossing a 1903 over the side of the boat because it wasn't needed.
I'd imagine short, handy auto-loading weapons ruled the day. The Garand must have felt like a spear on a PT boat...and I though someone mentioned a BAR...Jeez, what a cannon to have for close quarters stuff. If you've ever fired either you know what I mean.
Grandson of James J Stanton
RON 15 PT 209 and RON 23 PT 243
Check out: www.pistolpackinmama.net
Posted By: newsnerd99 | Posted on: Sep 18, 2008 - 2:44am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
Fred, after reading your post further, there were landing parties in the Mediterranean where PT boats from Ron 15 would land on small islands and check in with the locals, arranging a "surrender." From what I read there were no large armed parties, just sailors (and I assume) whatever they had on the boat. That being said, there weren't any shootouts or conflicts that required more. All the other landings were for the purpose of putting other armed parties on beaches so they could do the shooting!
Grandson of James J Stanton
RON 15 PT 209 and RON 23 PT 243
Check out: www.pistolpackinmama.net
Posted By: newsnerd99 | Posted on: Sep 18, 2008 - 2:48am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
if i remember correctly we had,aboard the 108; m1,s///carbimes/// -we also had 1 thompson sub-machine gun. 1-12 ga shotgun///all had a .45(mine had a hair trigger)//a deck mortar at one time(we removed it )i personally had a double edged -leather handled belt knife(i learned to throw it very effectivaly),that was sent to me by my brother.at one time i obtained a japanese tripod machine gun.sold it for 80.00 before i shipped home at end of war.
earl richmond
Posted By: EARL RICHMOND | Posted on: Sep 18, 2008 - 6:47am
Total Posts: 319 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 1:50pm
Wow Earl...I wish you still had that MG - I'd loved to buy it from you!
Grandson of James J Stanton
RON 15 PT 209 and RON 23 PT 243
Check out: www.pistolpackinmama.net
Posted By: newsnerd99 | Posted on: Sep 18, 2008 - 8:36am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
I believe on 242 we had 4-5 carbines, 2 Thompson sub-machine guns 4-5 45 Automatics and a box of hand grenades. Small arms on our boat was kept on a bulhead near the entrance to the officers quarters. They were not locked up. Our officers were issued 45 Automatics. The crew members were not issued hand guns however they were available to us anytime we wanted to practice or shoot flying fish from the bow. I personally had a 45 (army issue) given to me by the quartermaster of PT 59 when they were going back to the States from Vella La Vella. I carried it until I was relieved of duty and I gave it to my replacement when I came home from Green Island..
C. J. Willis
Posted By: CJ Willis | Posted on: Sep 18, 2008 - 10:19am
Total Posts: 464 | Joined: Nov 5, 2006 - 5:02pm
Peter Tare Builder,
Yes, the Rifles I have are the ones you described in your post. Not sure of the thought you have on using the rifles, but good luck. I spoke to Huck Wood tonight, XO, then Skipper on PT 124. He says that side arms were only handed out to the crew on few occassions, but were available for target practice ( on gooney birds ) or other targets. Huck says that the 124 had sevral Tommy Guns, .45 Pistols, M1- garands, and a few old .303 Springfield Rifles. They picked up a few cases of hand grenades, which on a few missions were used to blast a few fish to kingdom come. Some guys even had a contest on who could drop the most birds, using a rifle.
Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Sep 18, 2008 - 3:36pm
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am
newsnerd99 i also wish i still had the MG.would be worth a lot more than 80.00 now.
hi CJ hope you are doing ok now.my best earl
earl richmond
Posted By: EARL RICHMOND | Posted on: Sep 18, 2008 - 4:18pm
Total Posts: 319 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 1:50pm
There seems to be many variations in the Colt 45's. We had enlisted men with permanent possession of a Colt 45. There were not enough for every man. Assignment of a gun was usually based on seniority on the boat. When a man left the boat his 45 was passed on to another crew member. We also had a Tommy gun, a 12 gage shotgun or two, and several bolt action 30 caliber rifles which were mounted in the charthouse. They were not locked.
Posted By: QM | Posted on: Sep 18, 2008 - 6:24pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
Thanks to all -- informative.
Basically, it seems that there was no "standard" issue of small arms -- ship's arms locker was whatever the crew could scrounge, including on at least two occasions Japanese weapons.
Lots of .45s; most other weapons fast-firing and fairly handy (in both terms of being to-hand and being easy to maneuver on a bouncing, crowded PT.)
Not too many shore parties LOOKING for trouble (i.e., action vs. enemy troops) but lots armed in case of trouble.
Thanks again.
Posted By: fredtheobviouspseudonym | Posted on: Sep 18, 2008 - 6:50pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
Hi Fred the obvious!
I saw this photo at the PT Boats Inc reunion in Spokane August 2006 and photgraphed it. I believe it is from a boat in RON30 in the English channel just before D-day. I believe this is the crew of PT461 a 78 foot Higgins boat, (just like the PT658) Higgins boats have a small arms rack just as you step through the watertight door connecting the Forward Crews Quarters to the Officers Quarters. The rack is mounted to the bulkhead of the ammo magazine. The ammunition for the small arms must have been kept in the ammunition magazine right beside it. As you can see, every man is armed. I count 2 Thompson SMG's 3 M1 Garands, 3 .45 auto pistols and 2 machetes! So I imagine most of the boats had at least these items. I have also heard that being the "scroungers" they were, several PT boaters were able to obtain a BAR (Browning Automatic Rifle) If you look on the HNSA website [url]http://www.hnsa.org/doc/pt/doctrine/index.htm[/url] and read the "Motor Torpedo Boats, Tactical Orders and Doctrine, July 1942" book posted there, I believe they spell out the normal complement of small arms provided on 80 foot Elco Boats. Here is what it says: (in Article 1107 on page 2)
MILITARY CHARACTERISTICS
1107 (1) PT 20 type-PTs 20-68 (Elco Boatworks). Length 77 feet; beam 20 feet; maximum draft 5 feet; displacement 95,000 pounds.
(a) GUNS:
Four .50-caliber air-cooled B. A. machine guns in two twin, hand-operated scarf ring mounts.
One 20-mm. Oerlikon mount. (Not carried by all squadrons.)
One .45-caliber Thompson submachine gun.
One or two Lewis machine guns mounted forward. (Not carried by squadrons having Thompson gun.)
Two .30-caliber Springfield rifles.
Thirteen .45-caliber Colt pistols.
I hope this photo is helpful. Jerry (PT658 crew)
Jerry Gilmartin
Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Sep 18, 2008 - 9:48pm
Total Posts: 1473 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm
Jerry,
Interesting photo of the 461 crew, thanks for posting it.
I wonder what all the little dark spots are around each of the forward ports on the charthouse -- small fittings for canvas cover ties?
Posted By: Drew Cook | Posted on: Sep 19, 2008 - 2:37am
Total Posts: 1306 | Joined: Oct 19, 2006 - 10:44am
Hi Frank.
The idea I had for using the model Arisaka rifle on one of my PT boat models was to have some of the crew gathered around examining war booty on the way back to base or shortly after arrival back at base.
Cheers from PeterTareBuilder
"Give me a faster PT boat for I'd like to get out of harm's way!"
Posted By: PeterTareBuilder | Posted on: Sep 19, 2008 - 4:10pm
Total Posts: 494 | Joined: Jun 24, 2008 - 5:59pm
Thanks, Mr. Gilmartin.
Outstanding photo -- both for the details of the armament & boat and of the attitudes of the crew. My father would have smacked me silly if I had ever handled a firearm the way some of the crew did. Apparently, if I remember the PT familiarization pamphlet, there was some concern over "friendly fire" casualties due to carelessness in handling small arms aboard PT boats. This implies that sometimes these incidents happened.
One minor note -- the rifles are versions of the US Magazine Rifle Model of 1903 (the so-called "Springfield".) It makes sense -- these were usually issued to servicemen who needed to be armed but were less likely to engage the enemy than infantrymen, marines, combat engineers, etc. IIRC in Kirk Douglas' autobiography, "The Ragman's Son," there was a photograph of Mr. Douglas during his naval service on a minesweeper holding a 1903 Springfield.
Once more, thank you for your E-letter and letting me see that photo.
Posted By: fredtheobviouspseudonym | Posted on: Sep 19, 2008 - 7:20pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
Frank:
What is the .30 stinger that you referred to in an earlier post on this subject? I am unfamiliar with this, unless it is sometimes called something else. Is it a tripod mounted air cooled machine gun?
For the board members:
My research into the Division 17 boats indicates that Colt .45 pistols were assigned to every man on the boat and they carried them most of the time in the dispersal areas and all of the time while on patrol. They were assigend to and each man was repsonsible for his own .45, all the time. I have first hand accounts of the men resorting directly to the .45's in combat situations but they weere also regarded as a survival tools if they needed to abandon the boat. Operating in enemy waters of New Guinea presented multiple opportunities to reef a boat- some say it was a nightly occurance. The guys carried pockets full of .45 ammo so as to be instantly ready to abandon the boat and then to survive until they could be recovered. The psitols were assigned by the CO's of each boat, usually upon leaving Cairns. The boys knew that they would soon be in for the fight of their lives and reports coming back of enemy atrocities only strengthened that thinking. Further, the natives were rumored to be canabals and none were to be trusted. Later, this thinking was revised, but only to a certain extent. So, it can be concluded that the .45's were sometimes used offensively at close quarters and also relied upon as a defensive weapon if they were forced to survive ashore while awaiting recovery. The pistols were turned over to replacement crew members as they came aboard but it became obvious that there was a shortage of the .45 pistols because by the time crews had been replaced, man for man, by the third time, there were few pistols to go around and the officers began retaining them for their own use and protection.
Each of these six boats had at least two 12 ga. shotguns for close combat but the Thompsons were preferred over all other small arms. These Div 17 boats had the drum magazines and could really belch fire. An added feature was that they used the same ammo as their pistols, which helped with the logistics of procuring ammo.
It will all be in the book- with pictures one day- I hope. The thought process among these Div 17 guys was very interesting. They felt abandoned, alone, unsupported and, therefore, expendable. But they defied and conquored the odds. The enemy was not their only problem, for sure.
Allan
Posted By: Allan | Posted on: Sep 19, 2008 - 9:45pm
Total Posts: 161 | Joined: Sep 18, 2007 - 7:07pm
Hi Allan.
My understanding is tha the Stinger refrred to earlier was indeed a .30 caliber machine gun.
I noticed in reading one of the booklets issue to PT crewmen that there were also .45 caliber rounds loaded with tracer to be used for signalling.
Cheers from PeterTareBuilder
"Give me a faster PT boat for I'd like to get out of harm's way!"
Posted By: PeterTareBuilder | Posted on: Sep 19, 2008 - 11:05pm
Total Posts: 494 | Joined: Jun 24, 2008 - 5:59pm
That would absolutely make sense because I know that some of those very early PT's in Div 17 had .30 machine guns, tripod mounted and air cooled, that they operated from the foredeck. They were acquired sometime after receiving their original compliment of armaments at Norfolk- they may have traded for them from the Australian or New Zealand units. Any ideas as to maufacturer and model name, etc.? Thanks.
Allan
Posted By: Allan | Posted on: Sep 20, 2008 - 5:23am
Total Posts: 161 | Joined: Sep 18, 2007 - 7:07pm
Allen
Browning made a Heavy .30 caliber machine gun called the M1919A4, which was roughly 31 pounds. Spitting out lead at 400 RPM, they were an effective weapon against troops. Colt also made an aircraft version of the .30 which was an M2. It weighed less then the ground pounder at 21 pounds, and could split lead out at an incredible 1000 rounds per minute. I would guess both versions made their way onto the boats. I will contact Mickey from PT 374 to see if he remembers which version they used.
Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Sep 20, 2008 - 2:39pm
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am