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» Topic:
Higgins cut-away drawing update
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I though I'd share my progress on the Higgins cut-a-way project.
I started with the Higgins 1942 Series PT 71-94 mainly due to the available drawings that I could purchase through HQ. This series had more detailed drawings available, albeit meager at that, then the other Higgins series. However as I dove into the 18 or so purchased Higgins blueprints, I noticed descrepcies. Some of those descrpencies were noted in an earlier post. Drawings weren’t matching or corresponding with each other, even though they were all labeled PT 71-94 and dated July and August 1942.
I went to “The LOUISiana Digital Library” on the internet as suggested by Jerry Gilmartin and researched for a couple of days the hundreds of Higgins drawings with no conclusions to the issue. They unfortunately didn’t have the drawings that I needed to perform a comparison. Most all of the drawings are very specific details of individual components for a myriad of boats and/or series. This information is essential for those who are trying to restore or repair an actual PT and need detailed information on a wiring harness, as a typical example. I was really hoping they would have had bulkheads, arrangements, frames, profiles, etc. for all the various series. However, some of this information was available for PTs 5, 6 and 564 although – very interesting.
My next cause of action was to proceed with a Google & Yahoo “Image” search and again spent countless hours sorting through photos that had results from all searches with one form or another of the words and/or phrases using basic keywords such as “Higgins, PT, Boat, so on, so on” for searching input. I’m sure most of you have done similar search only to find a lot Dodge PT cruisers, some ones initials PT, Point Grove, pt. Hume, or even a porn queen called Higgins and all sorts of birthdays, dogs, cats and the whole menagerie that comes from a typical search. However, I did hit on some images from Gene Kirkland’s PT-King website on Yahoo/Geocities. His site shows several Higgins factor photos of PT boats in various forms of construction (Thanks Gene for these Archive images you discovered). Low and behold there are several shots showing boats PT-71 through PT-86 and none of those boats reflect the configuration shown on the Higgins blueprints. However they do represent some of the descrepencies I’ve been running into. The main difference center around the super structure of the boats. These boats (71-86) are very similar o the early experimental boats PT5 and PT6. The super structure is much longer then the standard or even later model Higgins we all know. The structure is more like the early 5 & 6 boats with the long cabin side. But unlike those early boats where the gun turrets were mid structure these (71-86) the gun tubs at the very aft of the structure. There is even a separate bridge area with a high rear wall with a rear oval access doorway for access to the aft deck of the boat.
It’s very interesting and hopefully Gene will let me post a couple of the images from his site.
Below is a current image of my Higgins cut-a-way drawing progress. With the finding of the actual configuration issue this boat will be illustrated as a boat in the range of PT-87 through PT-91. Later a version for other later war configurations will be done s well as the interesting 71-86 boats. Maybe even the Hellcat PT-564 a suggestion from Victor Chun. To create the drawings as shown below, there are some basic drawings required. Typically three dimensional drawings need a Top View, Side View and Front View to accurately illustrate an item. With the boats I typically require Deck and Side views, Internal Longitudal Cross Sections of inboard and out board profiles, Arrangement Plan Views, Cross Sections of typical Frames and also the very important Cross Sections of both side of each water tight bulkheads. These drawing usually give me enough information as to make a very fair representation of the boat.
Richard J. Washichek . . . . .
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Webmaster/higgins_pt_boat_71-94.jpg[/image]
Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Aug 26, 2008 - 1:39pm
Total Posts: 1417 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm
GREAT so far, Dick! I can't wait....
Will
Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Aug 27, 2008 - 8:29am
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm
As always Dick, you have done an outstanding Job..............
Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Aug 27, 2008 - 8:49am
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am
Hi there Dick.
Fantastic drawings. However I think I spotted an error. Shouldn't the bulkhead hide part of the 5th and 6th frames? As drawn it looks like those two frames start behind that bulkhead and then go in front of it.
I'll be wanting to get one of those calendars when it comes out.
BTW, did you ever do a calendar prior to the 80' Elco one?
Cheers from PeterTareBuilder
"Give me a faster PT boat for I'd like to get out of harm's way!"
Posted By: PeterTareBuilder | Posted on: Aug 27, 2008 - 11:09am
Total Posts: 494 | Joined: Jun 24, 2008 - 5:59pm
Thanks Peter, will write more tomorrow. Just now online and its pretty darn late.
Dick Washichek . . .
Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Aug 27, 2008 - 11:20pm
Total Posts: 1417 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm
I forgot to thank Jerry Gilmartin for the " PT631 Higgins Builders Photos " he had uploaded to our photo site PhotoBucket. The details in the photographs have played a great deal informing me of items that are not typically shown on drawings or items that were not clear. Also the photos posted on 658 site from him and his 658 buddies. And of course there are always those moments when you wish the camera was turn a little more that way or this way, or why there aren’t more photos.
I've included a drawing below of the Officers Head, which is squeezed between two huge 800 gallon fuel tanks. Coming later today or tonight will be the Engine Room.
All the best,
Dick . . .
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Webmaster/Officers_head_FWDfuel.jpg[/image]
Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Aug 29, 2008 - 12:59pm
Total Posts: 1417 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm
Dick
No wonder they hardley used the head inside the boat. One well placed shell and BAM!!! You and your throne would be dancing off the clouds.
Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Aug 29, 2008 - 2:46pm
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am
Hey Dick,
I had a chance to go inside our fuel tanks and the bottom is not flat, like one may infer from your drawing of it above. This may be a little too much detail to include in your drawing, but just in case here it goes....the fuel tank bottom is shaped like a tray, with the center well about 1 foot square and slanting sides on all four sides. They slant down at about a 20 degree angle. On our boat it is constructed of multiple layers of self-sealing heavy duty rubber suspended/stretched over from a framework of aluminum ribs. (Otherwise the rubber would just be a bladder!) On earlier Higgins boats, these tanks were made just of aluminum, but I think the shape of the bottom was the same. I know that Higgins had blueprints showing how to backfit and remove the aluminum tanks and install the rubber ones during the war. Anyway, on both types of tanks, there is an 18"x24" inspection manway cover on the inboard side of each tank (in the officers head) behind a wooden access cover. The manway cover is a rubber covered rectangular aluminum plate with numerous bolts holding it closed and then they are safety wired after screwing them in. The top of the fuel tank has an opening for the suction pipe, a fill pipe, and a vent and overflow pipe. The fill pipe has a pipe cap over it and it is hidden below a flush-deck screw bronze access plate just below the 50 cal gun tubs. The overflow pipe overflows out of the side of the boat through a hull fitting.
By the way, Dick, I think your drawing shows the mirror on the wrong bulkhead!
If it were placed where you have it in your picture, it would block the access to the manhole/inspection cover to the fuel tank! I think it should be placed on the aft bulkhead that it shares with the engineroom instead. (This location is shown in those PT631 photos also, by the way.) Additionally, the mirror would be more useful when shaving if it was placed directly over the sink and not off to the side.
OK so there you are, I hope this info may be of some use. Take care, Dick and I definitely want to get some of these fantastic drawings/ calendars when they are availble from you! Please let me know when they are available! Jerry
Jerry Gilmartin
Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Aug 29, 2008 - 7:47pm
Total Posts: 1473 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm
Hi Jerry . . .
Its taken much of Saturday and Sunday researching Higgins engineering drawings only to conclude the illustrations are correct for the series of Higgins boats I’m currently drawing (PT’s class 71, class 197 & class 265). According to the drawings self-sealing fuel tanks weren’t installed into Higgins boats until nearly the end of PT class 450 with PT 483 receiving the first in August of 1944 and these first self-sealing tanks were retrofit kits. The retrofit tank kits along with installation install drawings and modification instructions were also made available for all earlier class boats in August 1944. Prior to the self sealing tanks, ¼” armor plates were made as an exterior bolt-on item starting with PT 308-313 & 456-461. The kit consisted of four sets of plates, two sets on each side and bolted onto the exterior of the hull with 3” carriage bolts at Frames 22 thru 34 (Officers Qrt., Fuel Tank Area, & partial Engine Room) and Frames 42 thru 55 (Partial Engine Room, Aft Fuel Tank Area & Partial Storage Area (or Aft Crews Qrt)). I can’t imagine bolting on plates to the exterior hull. There was one install note that read: “All bolts thru sides of hull to be wound with a short piece of lamp wick or cotton soaked in caulkine compound,” I guess this keeps the 738 carriage bolts from leaking water thru the hulls side walls. The plates were mounted between the Guard Rail and Spray Rail/Chine and just above the muffler.
Starting with Higgins PT Class 625, Self Sealing Fuel Tanks became common and designed into the boats construction (including Access panels in the two Heads). Fuel Tanks prior to Class 450 were solid welded structures made of ALCLAD 72S (aluminum bonded steel).
The Medicine cabinet position seems to change from the port to starboard walls depending on the class of Higgins boats, with the later Class 625 position changing to the Engine Room Bulkhead walls.
Thanks for the info it caused me to dig a little deeper and of course develop a better understanding of the Higgins boats and also for the LDL site, it was invaluable for this research.
I did make a few changes to the drawing based on the info I dug-up and attached the revised image to this reply.
I’ll keep you posted when ( ???? ) they are hot-off-the-press!
Richard J. Washichek . . . .
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Webmaster/OfficersHEAD.jpg[/image]
Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Sep 1, 2008 - 12:58am
Total Posts: 1417 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm
Wow!
That is cool Dick! You rock! Jerry
Jerry Gilmartin
Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Sep 1, 2008 - 7:37am
Total Posts: 1473 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm
Another installment for the Higgins cut-away. This time it's the Engine Room - its mansion size compared to the 80' ELCO.
Please enjoy,
Dick . . . .
[image]http://www.gdinc.com/art-images/Engine_Room.jpg[/image]
Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Sep 1, 2008 - 11:45pm
Total Posts: 1417 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm
Another update on Higgins drawing - yeah again. . .
Completed the Aft Fuel Tank compartment, the Storage compartment and the Lazarette. Then made the below composite assembly. With all of the compartments assembled, there is a lack detail of each individual unit, but art does provide a good overall view of below deck. Like my ELCO project there will be independent views of the compartment allowing the detail of each to be readily seen.
Still having a lot of angst over the actual configuration of this series of boats. As mentioned in earlier posts, Higgins drawing don't match the great Higgins photos at Gene Kirkland's PT King website. Even though the photos show the same series of boats in various construction stages, the configuration is quit different then those shown on the drawings. Strangely one photo show PT-88 configured differently then a photo two months later (the more familiar look), ready to be launched. Oh well, I guess I'll take some Alka Seltzer for "Indecision".
Dick . . . . .
[image]http://www.gdinc.com/washichekart.jpg[/image]
Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Sep 5, 2008 - 1:58pm
Total Posts: 1417 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm
Dick
I noticed in the spacious engine room of the Higgins that I could not locate an area for the Engineer. Where did he sit while the boat was underway......
Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Sep 5, 2008 - 3:26pm
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am
Hi Frank!
The Motor Mac on watch in the engine room would stand just in front of that ladder because the reach rods for the shift levers all can be operated from that position. The Motor Mac would watch the 3 engine order telegraph arrows (located just above the gageboard on the forward bulkhead) and then shift engines according to the arrow positions. Each engine takes about 75 foot-pounds of force in order to shift it, so it may have been easier to come up with that much force when you were standing. Also, there was so much room in the Higgins Engineroom compared to the Elco, I imagine the watchstanders could keep themselves occupied by playing a quick game of horseshoes or maybe even basketball while they were down there! The center engine shifter reach rod is longest, and travels under the deck on the stbd side of the engine and then comes up right next to the ladder. Bill Maloney has posted some excellent photos of the inside of the engineroom on PT-796 [url]http://www.williammaloney.com/Aviation/Aviationindex.html[/url] and the one labeled "05TransmissionGearLever" shows what I am talking about with the lever. So to answer your implied question, NO, the Higgins MotorMacs didnt have a cushy seat to sit on like those on the Elco's! Ha ha! Jerry
Jerry Gilmartin
Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Sep 5, 2008 - 5:25pm
Total Posts: 1473 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm
Thanks Jerry
I bet those boys had some stiff legs having to stand most of the time while underway. Checked out the photo's which really do not show the spacious space afforded the engineers. Maybe you have one of your boat that has a better look at the space occupied by the massive packards. That's one thing that Elco did not do. They left a cramped engine room, but presented a wonderful living space upfront. Little did they know that most time spent would be on deck, and most of the time ( in the Pacific ) it was just too hot to sleep below. I guess that was the trade off, having more comfort for the crew.......
Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Sep 6, 2008 - 2:11am
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am
Jerry . . .
Thanks for great insight on the Higgins engine room operations.
Frank . . .
I stole these photos from Jerry and gang at the Portland Groups website - some great shots of the engine room. Sorry Jerry for stealing the photos, I hope the group doesn't mind.
Below a photo collage from Portland Oregon's Save the PT Boat (PT-685) website:
[url]http://www.savetheptboatinc.com/index.htm[/url]
Dick
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Webmaster/Higgins-Engine-Room.jpg[/image]
Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Sep 6, 2008 - 7:57am
Total Posts: 1417 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm
Dick
Thanks for the awesome shots of the engine room. Boy, it was spacious no doubt making for a happy enginer. Of course, thanks to Jerry and the gang for the pictures from the group.........
Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Sep 6, 2008 - 9:24am
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am
Yes, another one of those annoying – “Higgins Project Update” – I have just finished the below deck image and the upper deck view. Still have to draw and explode-out the charthouse detail and add all the callout description text. Still haven't made my mind up what PT boat number and upper deck armament configuration to use. It seems the older I get the more indecision creeps in, but I have to make my mind up real soon. Also haven’t decided to keep it gray or change it to green like my earlier ELCO project. Any comments are welcome.
In other post I have discussed the interior arrangement, specifically when it comes to the aft Fuel Tank and Storage Compartments. I have a version, which illustrates the center compartment between the two aft tanks as a Crew’s Head and the storage compartment as a four bunk secondary Crew area. The current Generator and Compressor Fuel tanks in the center fuel compartment move to the outer hull wing areas, starboard and port of the aft fuel tanks. The Co2 Bottle remains but moved to the aft/port corner.
I also have a Higgins 625 Series top side drawn in pencil but not yet traced and colored in Illustrator. Will get to this after finishing the first Higgins.
[image]http://www.gdinc.com/Higgins-PT-84.jpg[/image]
Just as informative note, the original art is being drawn in Adobe Illustrator as line art. Most of the artwork was first plotted in isomeric and drawn in pencil then scanned as a Pict file and opened in Illustrator as a template. Where I then trace and add color to each and every component. A component can be as simple as a hull frame, it is made up of three separate sub-components (planes – front, side & top) and each one has to drawn and colored separately. Some of the components are drawn directly in Illustrator. The actual Illustrator art size is 62” x 62".
Since the drawings are lines, I have to import the Adobe Illustrator file into Photoshop and create an image file like the attached posted image above. The saved file gets manipulated to an appropriate size for this message board saved as a medium resolution J-peg (.jpg) file. The image displays pretty good but if printed it suffers greatly from the image manipulation to be sized reasonably small enough to post and load-up within a reasonable time frame.
Dick . . . .
Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Sep 17, 2008 - 12:27am
Total Posts: 1417 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm
Dick;
You wrote: Prior to the self sealing tanks, ¼” armor plates were made as an exterior bolt-on item starting with PT 308-313 & 456-461. The kit consisted of four sets of plates, two sets on each side and bolted onto the exterior of the hull with 3” carriage bolts at Frames 22 thru 34 (Officers Qrt., Fuel Tank Area, & partial Engine Room) and Frames 42 thru 55 (Partial Engine Room, Aft Fuel Tank Area & Partial Storage Area (or Aft Crews Qrt)). I can’t imagine bolting on plates to the exterior hull. There was one install note that read: “All bolts thru sides of hull to be wound with a short piece of lamp wick or cotton soaked in caulkine compound,” I guess this keeps the 738 carriage bolts from leaking water thru the hulls side walls. The plates were mounted between the Guard Rail and Spray Rail/Chine and just above the muffler.
This is correct, PT 308 when I was on her at Franklin Timmons boatyard still had her 1/4" plates still on her sides. At the time I tought this was just some sort of patch, or something. I never realized this was part of the factory package.
Take care,
TED
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Sep 17, 2008 - 5:35am
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
Dick;
I posted photos of PT 308, which I took in October 1988. You can see the 1/4" armor plate in the one photo showing the portside very clearly.
take care,
TED
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Sep 17, 2008 - 9:54am
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
Ted . . .
Went to the PhotoBucket site and viewed your photos of the 308. At first the images were so sad they brought a large tear to the eye. But realizing these great little boats were only made of wood, the cost of constant up keep would be nearly impossible unless it was a working boat earning a living for itself. Still it’s sad to see these wonderful wooden veterans scum to nature - it seems so painful.
On a brighter note, this one shot (that I have included below) is a great sample of the installed armor plating to help protect the welded fuel tank containers. I was always under the impression that all PT boat fuels tanks were self-sealing, until Jerry Gilmartin had brought up some illustration issues and investigating the issues found that at least the Higgins boats until the Series 625 did not have self-sealing tanks.
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Ted%20Walther/PT308_withArrmorPlate.jpg[/image]
For Post readers, there are three other images that Ted Walther uploaded to our PT Boat PhotoBucket site, under his Album at:
[url]http://s130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Ted%20Walther/[/url]
Below is a link to the Higgins blueprint for Armor Plating - "PDF" file which I created (assembled) from a series of jpeg bits and pieces I downloaded from the Higgins Library :
[url]http://www.gdinc.com/PT-308_Armor_Plate.pdf[/url]
Thanks Ted, a great look of actual items we discuss on this board.
Dick . . . . .
Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Sep 17, 2008 - 11:32am
Total Posts: 1417 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm
Hi,
I think you should make the colour green and maybe a PT 295 or something in the 200 series, if thats possible. It looks pretty nice. That pt boat above thats cool, bet it was a real problem with all thosed aromor panels bolted through the hull?
SH
Posted By: Hadly | Posted on: Sep 18, 2008 - 12:21pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
Hi Dick,
Thanks for posting these wonderful drawings for our enjoyment! Now I know why some of those Elco boats say they were faster than Higgins boats! It was like they were handicapping the faster Higgins boats by putting 1/4 inch armor plates on her sides! I wonder how much all those armor plates weighed? Just like a racehorse that has to wear sandbags. Now it all makes sense to me!
No, all kidding aside, I am curious if you may know the answer to a question that i have had for several years about something on the PT658. In the aft crews quarters on the starboard side below the crews pipe rack are some very heavy wood beams and platform. You can see them in the photo through the door next to the CO2 bottle. (The photo was taken from the aft crews head looking aft and starboard into the crews quarters) The port side of the aft crew compartment has no such arrangement. Nobody that I have asked knows what they were for, I have often looked at these beams and wondered what was their purpose? Maybe you came across them in your blueprint adventures and could shed some light on the subject. Here is a picture
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/PT631%20Higgins%20Builders%20Photos/00000015.jpg[/image]
Jerry Gilmartin
Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Sep 18, 2008 - 10:12pm
Total Posts: 1473 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm
Jerry . . . too funny ! ! !
I think I might have seen something that might explain the the heavy (beefed-up) structure. I'll check it out tomorrow morning and see what conclusion I can come up with.
Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Sep 19, 2008 - 12:17am
Total Posts: 1417 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm
Its been awhile since I have had time to work on the Higgins Drawing - for some reason making a living keeps interfering with me completing the project. It’s a real shame when paying bills come first. Besides, I can’t see congress come running to bail my rear end out of trouble.
I’ve decided to, at least for the first Higgins drawing do the Portland Oregon gangs PT-658. Then probably a 200 series Higgins, not sure which one. Below is a finished section, detailing the Bridge/Cockpit (? proper descriptor ?) and chart room.
My best to all,
Dick . . . .
[image]http://www.gdinc.com/Higgins_Cockpit_&_ChartRoom.jpg[/image]
Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Oct 23, 2008 - 11:27pm
Total Posts: 1417 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm
I'd be happy to do whatever I could to have the 200 series be PT 209! Name your price Dick!
I think we're all pretty patient - we're just happy you are taking the time to do what you are doing!
Grandson of James J Stanton
RON 15 PT 209 and RON 23 PT 243
Check out: www.pistolpackinmama.net
Posted By: newsnerd99 | Posted on: Oct 24, 2008 - 1:40am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
Hi Jim . . .
Well you know, I would surely love to retire a little early. So I think the price would about $ #,@%*&,*@!$.#& . . . for starters . . . . . .
Tell me how the boat was configured, see below.
Also how the aft Storage/Crews Quarters where configured (the best I can tell by drawings and some very uninformative photograph of the rear compartments, there were three berthing configs and one storage config.): Two Pipe Berths, Two Pipe Berths with two Outbrd Berths or four Built-in Berths similar to forward crew quarters (in other words no Pipe Berths) or just Storage.
Take care and have a good one,
Dick . . . .
[image]http://www.gdinc.com/PT-200-SERIE-HIGGINS.jpg[/image]
Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Oct 25, 2008 - 12:59pm
Total Posts: 1417 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm
Hi Jim . . .
Well you know, I would surely love to retire a little early. So I think the price would about $ #,@%*&,*@!$.#& . . . for starters . . . . . .
Tell me how the boat was configured, see below.
Also how the aft Storage/Crews Quarters where configured (the best I can tell by drawings and some very uninformative photograph of the rear compartments, there were three berthing configs and one storage config.): Two Pipe Berths, Two Pipe Berths with two Outbrd Berths or four Built-in Berths similar to forward crew quarters (in other words no Pipe Berths) or just Storage.
Take care and have a good one,
Dick . . . .
[image]http://www.gdinc.com/PT-200-SERIE-HIGGINS.jpg[/image]
Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Oct 25, 2008 - 1:28pm
Total Posts: 1417 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm
Hello Dick-
Thanks for posting the drawings of the PT boat weapons and armament placements. This is a fantastic help to all of us scale PT boat modelers here on the board. Outstanding refference material, Dick. Great job!
Frank Ryczek, Jr.
Modeler/Friend RON-10 PT-169 " ZEBRA SNAFU "
HIGH TIDES ALWAYS!
YOUR FRIEND THROUGH SCALE SHIP MODELING AND PT BOAT HISTORY!
Posted By: FRANK | Posted on: Oct 25, 2008 - 4:34pm
Total Posts: 349 | Joined: Oct 7, 2007 - 2:09pm
I don't think I have that much Dick, but I'd be happy to pay you for your time (or bid on a raffle if you wanted to do just one.)
That weapons, etc. breakdown is impressive! Great work. Here is the best profile shot I have of the 209...with my alphabet breakdown. I broke it in half so it would be "larger" in a web browser format. This is how the boat would have looked on August 15th, 1944 (D-Day, Operation Dragoon). I can provide detailed photos of specific areas on the boat...I only referenced things I could prove with photos.
[IMaGe]http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e362/newsnerd99/profileofarms.jpg[/IMaGe]
The only other notes worth mentioning is that the midship .30's I have no clear photos of and the raft in every photo I have is always lashed to the starboard cabin face, blocking the window/vents. Also, I see no star or star-and-bar painted on the deck. There was a small wooden boat (not the standard issue raft) that would be strapped under the barrel of the aft 40mm, and was used on D-Day to rescue downed glider troops who ditched in the Med: [url]http://www.pistolpackinmama.net/pb/wp_c6cc427c/wp_c6cc427c.html[/url]
I looked at a profile photo of PT 210 as a cross reference, and she seemed to be outfitted identically.
Thanks Dick!
Grandson of James J Stanton
RON 15 PT 209 and RON 23 PT 243
Check out: www.pistolpackinmama.net
Posted By: newsnerd99 | Posted on: Oct 25, 2008 - 5:15pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
JIM . . . See if this plan view fits the bill, I think I got everything. I'll use these components to build the PT-209 poster art after I get the PT-658 poster done.
See the image below and/or download a "PDF" version with this link:
[url]http://www.gdinc.com/PT-209R.pdf[/url]
[image]http://www.gdinc.com/PT-209R.jpg[/image]
Dick . . . .
Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Oct 26, 2008 - 1:00pm
Total Posts: 1417 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm
Hi Dick,
All I can say is WOW! I am overwhelmed with your awesome drawings and the unsurpassed level of details they show. Also, thank you for making the decision to draw PT658. All of the veterans and crew here in Portland will be very proud and priveledged to show this masterpiece drawing alongside the real thing when and wherever we go. I will bet the drawing will garner a lot more understanding and interest in the PT boat as well from the general public and from veterans alike. Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Jerry PT658 Portland
Jerry Gilmartin
Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Oct 26, 2008 - 3:02pm
Total Posts: 1473 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm
Dick...that is incredible! Thank you so much for sharing your time and talent. I also wanted to thank you for sparking something new for me to research as far as my grandfather's boat.
I dug and dug trying to find a photo of the 209 with those two .30's...and the closest I came was this photo of MoMM Dick Kiley standing in the engine room hatch...is that a .30 hiding under the canvas tarp to the left?
[IMaGe]http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e362/newsnerd99/044recut.jpg[/IMaGe]
I found what I guess is the best view of the stern of the 209...what is that "barrell" on the port edge against the rear cleat? Is it a depth charge or something else? I never paid it any mind until having to focus on every inch of the boat for your graphics.
[IMaGe]http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e362/newsnerd99/053recut.jpg[/IMaGe]
And finally...it looks like those .30's were temporary...in photos of the boat before Pop was "in country" (pre-May 1944) don't show the guns mounted. Photos from after Operation Dragoon don't show them either (see below, TM Henry Beazley standing next to an "old" torpedo, sometime in the summer or early fall of 1944) so maybe they were added for the invasion? Maybe they were added because of the close-in fights some of the PT crews had in June and July? I dunno!
[IMaGe]http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e362/newsnerd99/023recut.jpg[/IMaGe]
The other thing is the flash hiders on the twin .50's that the 209 had...I don't ever seem to see them anywhere else (you can see them in the top right corner of the photo above). Was that just on in many mods the Navy tried during the war? Seems to me that it would only help the gunner keep his night vision...the enemy would still be able to see a good-sized flash.
Here's that profile photo of PT 210 (thanks Steve Nugent!) that was taken after the boat was repaired from its Elba shootout. You can see the hull repair under the brudge, and all the same armaments as the 209 in my previous post.
[image]http://www.pistolpackinmama.net/pb/wp_056fafca/images/img107148621fe5b8ee7.jpg[/image]
Thanks again Dick! It's given me a great reason to pour through old photos again and that PDF is fantastic! Any idea how big I can print it before there is a loss of quality? I really appreciate it!
And as one last note...this is my 209th post...how appropriate.
Grandson of James J Stanton
RON 15 PT 209 and RON 23 PT 243
Check out: www.pistolpackinmama.net
Posted By: newsnerd99 | Posted on: Oct 26, 2008 - 4:41pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
Newsy,
That cylindrical object on the stern in my opinion is most likely the 35 gallon titanium tetrachloride smoke generator tank. All you do was open the valve and it smokes for quite a while with great clouds of billowing white smoke. Jerry
Jerry Gilmartin
Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Oct 26, 2008 - 5:50pm
Total Posts: 1473 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm
Jerry, Jim . . . .
Thanks, and you guys are very welcome.
Dick
Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Oct 26, 2008 - 11:57pm
Total Posts: 1417 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm
Hi Jim,
Photo one, boy you know, it looks like the old tripod use on the forward deck of early ELCO 77's. But a closer look it appears to be on the boat next the 209. The tripod is nearly touching the aft portion of that boats' bridge structure.
Photo two, I agree with Jerry's comment, it look as if there wee two one on each aft side. photo you posted with all the identifiers clearly show one on the aft starboard side.
Photo three, the photo clearly show a clean deck, no additional machine guns. That is one of the problems when tiring to draw these boats. I've been creating an Illustrated Guide of boat configurations showing a deck plan then a Isometric view (3-D). Of course these configurations come from photos published in book and on the internet. As you know the same boat maybe shown in multiple places at different times during the war, and more then likely a different configuration can be seen in each of these photos. Instead of showing all three I usually picked the most interesting.
Back to configuration:
The photo below shows what appears to be some type of pipe support.
[image]http://www.gdinc.com/PT-209-00001.jpg[/image]
This photo I found on your site as the 209, it surprisingly shows Dual fifty's right behind the roll-off rack. I've read in the past, the erly use of 30's were replaced with 50's because the early guns were ineffective.
[image]http://www.gdinc.com/PT-209-00003.jpg[/image]
This photo I found on your site, it shows a pipe type weldment to the roll-off rack, I've this type of arrange before. It is what I'm basing the 209 on.
[image]http://www.gdinc.com/PT-209-00002.jpg[/image]
Dick . . . . .
Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Oct 26, 2008 - 11:58pm
Total Posts: 1417 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm
Thanks guys...I didn't know there were two.
Dick...thanks for pointing out things I never noticed before! I saw that picture of "Punchy" on a single machine gun, but that never stood out to me before. Is that a .30 or a .50? The bore looks pretty big in the photo; that and the spade grips...I just assumed it was a .50.
That photo of the engine change was put at that spot on the website because I was talking about engine upgrades; it was actually taken on either Samar or more likely Mindoro, PI in 1945 (Ron 23). That being said, those twin .50's on the side have the same flash hider as the 209 - very interesting!
Grandson of James J Stanton
RON 15 PT 209 and RON 23 PT 243
Check out: www.pistolpackinmama.net
Posted By: newsnerd99 | Posted on: Oct 27, 2008 - 12:27am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
I think what we have here is one awesome thing. If any of us could have are very own numbered PT BOAT CUTAWAY DRAWING, it would just be priceless. As gifts, they would certainly brighten up any of those PT BOATERS who served on a Boat.
I would love to have my very own drawing of Ron 27's PT 374. As this is the next model to be bulit for me by Alex Johnson, the drawing next to the model in an Exhibit would be super. Dick, in my opinion, you have hit a home run here. The drawings look great, and the weapons and deck equipment to choose from is spectacular. The work you have put into this project is no doubt a labor of love, which all of us here appreciate........
Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Oct 27, 2008 - 11:49am
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am
Frank J . . . .
You sly snake-oil salesman -
Thanks, you always have kind words to say, they are very appreciated as well as your friendship.
"Labor of Love", yeah, it really has been (is, I mean). It would be nice to have more time to spend on all the drawings, but sadly employment all ways seems to get in the way. However without making a living, I'd be hard press to buy all the blueprints I need to create this labor of love. It can get quit expensive overall, and my wife is sweet enough to let me indulge as long as the mortgage gets paid first (hey, maybe I can apply for a “Bail-Out” – it seem Congress is more then happy to send out checks now days.) With costs aside I think it’s more important to develop these for at least historical value if nothing else. These types of drawings just don’t exist and are really needed to show and educate others about PT Boats. On the education front Alyce (Headquarters) uses a large print of the ELCO 80’ as an education tool on her school lecture tours.
Thanks again and thanks to all message boards whom always seem to have nice words, they are always very appreciated.
Dick . . .
Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Oct 28, 2008 - 4:09pm
Total Posts: 1417 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm
Jim & Jerry
Below is an image that shows four configurations of the Aft Storage/Crew Compartment. Two are confirmed by drawings and two possibilities from photos. Please let me know which configuration will fit your boats. The Higgins like the ELCO boats probably configured the area as increase crew sizes were needed as armament increased.
[image] http://www.gdinc.com/aft-compartment-layouts.jpg[/image]
Dick . . .
Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Oct 28, 2008 - 10:42pm
Total Posts: 1417 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm
The 209, in July 1944 until it was lend-leased had two berths...TM Henry Beazley, who was a new guy on the 209 after several crew were wounded on patrols, was assigned his bunk there. He talked about how he didn't spend too much time sleeping there; fumes prevented it while the boat was underway and the Summer weather made it too hot to berth in during the day.
Grandson of James J Stanton
RON 15 PT 209 and RON 23 PT 243
Check out: www.pistolpackinmama.net
Posted By: newsnerd99 | Posted on: Oct 29, 2008 - 6:02am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
Hi Dick,
Again what a great job! The PT658 looks like the one on the Lower Left Hand side, with 2 pipe racks and 2 berths and storage below the port berth. The starboard pipe rack is located just over that heavy duty framing (the same framework that I asked you to identify earlier) which blocks any access to storage. Thanks for giving us the chance to input by the way. Jerry
Jerry Gilmartin
Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Oct 29, 2008 - 8:27pm
Total Posts: 1473 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm
[quote]The other thing is the flash hiders on the twin .50's that the 209 had...I don't ever seem to see them anywhere else (you can see them in the top right corner of the photo above). Was that just on in many mods the Navy tried during the war? Seems to me that it would only help the gunner keep his night vision...the enemy would still be able to see a good-sized flash.[/quote]
Can't offer any information on naval usage but at least in land warfare flash hiders were VERY useful.
Martin Russ was a young Marine in Korea in 1953. (Note that they were still using a great deal of WWII gear then.) He was young, courageous, and outrageous, so decided to turn his BAR into an up-close-and-personal weapon by removing the bipod and flash hider.
His first night patrol after the modification he spotted some enemy soldiers and fired on them. He was then BLIND for some minutes; thankfully the rest of the patrol fended off the enemy and hauled him away. [Story included in the book "The Last Parallel" -- while OT a very good work on combat. Was based on Russ' diaries.]
So if a BAR without a flash hider will blind the user, what will the muzzle flash of a couple of .50's do? I wouldn't want to find out the hard way.
Posted By: fredtheobviouspseudonym | Posted on: Nov 19, 2008 - 12:34am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
Update - -
Well . . . I'm close to finishing up the Higgins Poster project still have some minor tweaking to do and a couple of proof-prints before they are done. Then onto creating the detail booklet showing each section of the boat separately in Isometric (3-D), with plan views, outboard views etc., etc. . . . .
PT-658 has been done exclusively for Jerry and the Portland Oregon, Save the PT Boat Inc, gang. They will be selling it as a fund raising tool during public tours.
The 209 and the 88 show different up-top configurations and some minor changes below deck mainly in the aft interior; Aft Crew Quarters or Aft Storage room including the Aft Crew's Head or Aft fuel Tank room. The 209 has also been done in green but not shown here.
I still want to create a PT-71 version because of it's very different upper deck configuration. The first 10 to 15 boats all shared this configuration where the the bridge was walled off and the gun turrets were offset at the end of long wall housings and located nearly mid boat.
All the best,
Dick
[image]http://www.gdinc.com/PT-658.jpg[/image]
[image]http://www.gdinc.com/PT-209.jpg[/image]
[image]http://www.gdinc.com/PT-84.jpg[/image]
Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Jan 30, 2009 - 12:28am
Total Posts: 1417 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm
Dick
Great work as always. Ok, I want all three. Where can I order them and what is the cost. I think they would look great in my Exhibit, using Elco, Higgins, and one day Huckins.
Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Jan 30, 2009 - 4:00am
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am
Dick,
Am really enjoying the outstanding work you're doing with the perspective cutaways. You've mentioned several times that the turrets on the original design were offset. Do you have a set of Higgins drawings showing this configuration? If so, could you upload a copy? I'll be drawing up this configuration and would like a reliable reference.
Thanks.
Al Ross
Posted By: alross2 | Posted on: Jan 30, 2009 - 4:28am
Total Posts: 993 | Joined: Oct 30, 2006 - 8:19pm
Dick?
I wish I could do what you do.
Garth
Posted By: TGConnelly | Posted on: Jan 30, 2009 - 6:32am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
Dick;
Great work as always, I am also interested in purchasing the whole set, but did PT 658 have the swing out rocket launchers as part of its original armament package as in the photos of PT 631? Just an idea since 658 was originally to be in RON 45, or was it completed without the launchers since it was then slated to go lend lease to USSR.
Take care,
TED
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Jan 30, 2009 - 6:46am
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
Great work, Dick.
Will
Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Jan 30, 2009 - 9:24am
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm
Hey guys . . .
Thanks again for the kind words
AL,
I don't have a plan or deck view showing the configuration, just some Bulkhead Sections that were different from profile and standard Higgins deck view, which started me searching. A little later tonight I'll post up what I have and find the photo link, It be a couple of hours and I'll get it up.
TED,
You know, I’m not really sure what the final configuration would have been. I plowed through my drawing purchased from HQ and all the drawing at Louisiana Digital Library with little to none upper deck configurations, I’ve also requested Microfilm from the National Archives for Higgins with no results except for the 6 misc. content rolls on ELCO boats, the same for Huckins, they reported couldn't identify any microfilm for Huckins or Higgins.
However I did worked with Jerry Gilmartin on the 658 project and the configuration may have been more to the Portland’s group boat’s current look.
I do plan to finish off a full blow version of the 631 boat as well as a late model ELCO fully armed to the teeth.
Again guy, thanks very much, a little ego stroking never hurts.
Dick . . . .
Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Jan 30, 2009 - 3:17pm
Total Posts: 1417 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm
AL,
Gene Kirkland's PT King Site has a page of Higgins factory photo, two the photos show the completed boats PT-78 & PT-80 and another half dozen of early boats during construction. If you pay attention to the details (which I never did before this project) you'll see this unique configuration.
When starting the Higgins project, in the early days, I was having difficulty translating the detail bulkhead drawings with the inboard and outboard profile drawings. For a while I was stumped, until I did some searching and in one book either Victor's or Johnson's, found a different looking Higgins. A little further on I ended up at Gene's site and started studying the Higgins factory photos when it finally donned on me the very early boats, probably 71 thru 86 were configured in this style. I also noticed dates on Higgins drawings varied without any notice to actual drawings changes – all the various dates which clearly occurred in the early days of development a lot of changing was going on.
I've also studied the Higgins digital drawing library at Louisiana Digital Library. There I found a few drawings for the 71 class and they also present a confusing configuration. But never found a deck or plan view. I'm starting to believe maybe the first few boats were actually base on the PT-6 (primary) with the access from the bridge to below deck having a center access as shown in one of the Bulkhead Section, rather then the conventional off-center access. I've been wondering maybe the Navy didn't like the first few boats delivered and requested an upper deck change to its more familiar look.
Please see Gene's link below:
[url]http://www.geocities.com/comdesdiv1/PThigginsfactory.html[/url]
PS: Thanks for the kind words.
By the way, I think it’s been some time now since we heard from Gene, I hope everything is okay at his end.
[image]http://www.gdinc.com/19-30.jpg[/image]
Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Jan 30, 2009 - 5:49pm
Total Posts: 1417 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm
Al,
Here is an estimated deck view Based on photos shown on Gene's website.
[image]http://www.gdinc.com/PT-71-1.jpg[/image]
Dick . . .
Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Jan 31, 2009 - 9:20am
Total Posts: 1417 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm
Dick ...
From what I've been told is that the unusual configuration was the original design but the Navy did not like it and made Higgins refit PTs 71-84 to the configuration that we are all familiar with .......
Garth
Posted By: TGConnelly | Posted on: Jan 31, 2009 - 9:52am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
Thanks Garth, That was my train of though - not for any particular reason other then that configuration is hard to find photos of. Plus I have two set of engineering bulkhead views and by all the date changes, it was obvious that there was some type of issue causing all the engineering changes. In fact somewhere I saw a PT-84 photo and it appeared as the typical Higgins look, but also noted the factory photos where showing it in the early build configuration. Somewhere down the line it was obvious the boat was changed and if that one, probably all of the early boats were updated.
Once I believe you had made a comment about Higgins being late delivering the first boats to the Navy, can you elaborate a little on that story.
Thanks,
Dick . . .
Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Jan 31, 2009 - 2:17pm
Total Posts: 1417 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm
I posted a shot of the 84 boat in each configuration on Photobucket.....
Will
Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Jan 31, 2009 - 6:47pm
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm
Dick,
Thanks for posting the type sections. Although they don't show the turret placement, knowing the frame locations helps in other ways. It's an odd configuration, as the turrets are only offset by about two feet. Would be interesting to know the rationale for this.
The factory photos clearly show the turret offset and are a great source of detail. You might want to revisit your plan view. Based on these photos, the pads for the forward torpedo tube cradles are too far aft.
If we ever get volume 3 off the ground, I'd like to arrange to include your cutaways. Let's talk at some point.
Al
Posted By: alross2 | Posted on: Jan 31, 2009 - 7:23pm
Total Posts: 993 | Joined: Oct 30, 2006 - 8:19pm
Dick,
I do apologize, but ...
ALL that I can remember with any clarity was that Higgins delivered the first batch of boats with that wierd turret layout but the Navy didn't care for it and that all of that first batch of boats were sent back to Higgins to be refitted with the configuration we are all familiar with; for whatever reason.
I find it interesting that, later in the war, Higgins did move the turrets into a configuration CLOSE to that original one ...
Maybe - originally - Higgins' design team thought the staggered layout would have afforded both gunners to have a better field of fire? I don't know, ... I'm just theorizing - I'm no expert ...
Garth
Posted By: TGConnelly | Posted on: Feb 1, 2009 - 7:01am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
First of all, a great big Thanks to Dick for all of his hard work and excellent results! The whole crew of the PT658 are very excited about these posters!
Second of all Ted, While we were performing the restoration of PT658, and also going inside of PT659 (while it still existed) we never observed any of the extra strength framework that would have been installed into the overhead of the Forward Crews Quarters (outboard over the crews bunk) that would have been there if the Rocket Launchers were installed.
So I think they must have decided not to install the Rocket Launchers on the PT 657,658,659 and 660 since they were bound for USSR. You are right though, the 625 class would have had them normally installed. I kind of wish they were there myself. Jerry
Here is a PT631 builders photos showing the extra support framework I am referring to. Jerry
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/PT631%20Higgins%20Builders%20Photos/00000034.jpg[/image]
Jerry Gilmartin
Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Feb 1, 2009 - 10:10am
Total Posts: 1473 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm
Nice Dick, there's some great detail there. The flattened keel is interesting. I would guess it's flattened for faster planing?
Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Feb 1, 2009 - 11:00am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am
I read in a book about Higgins 10 years ago,( But for weeks now have been struggling to recall the books title and still can't) that the first series boats could not make the required speed of 40 knots that the Navy required. To solve the problem the Higgins PT was redesigned. The book wasn't clear about what was done but mentioned weight was removed in what was described as fittings to lighten the craft. After these changes, these Boats were then able to attain the required speed. It wasn't until Gene Kirkland sent me a number of Factory Photos the same that appear in his website and which have appeared recently on the message board, that I could now relate to what was removed and was redistributed to help the Higgins make the required speed. The redesign was accomplished on on all the earlier boats. The repositioning of the turrets however blocked the helmsmans side view especially to port and lead to the redesign of moving both turrets aft on the 450 class. If any one can remember the name of that book and the author I sure would appreciate it.
Wayne Traxel
Posted By: Wayne Traxel | Posted on: Feb 1, 2009 - 11:20am
Total Posts: 248 | Joined: Oct 11, 2006 - 5:40am
John Drain's list of books mentions "Andrew Jackson Higgins And The Boats That Won World War II", could this be it Wayne?
Google books has a preview:
[url]http://www.google.com/books?id=0uwBsrMLnXwC&printsec=frontcover[/url]
And it can be purchased here:
[url]http://www.lsu.edu/lsupress/bookPages/9780807123393.html[/url]
Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Feb 1, 2009 - 1:21pm
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am
Thank You Jeff. That's the Book! Couldn't Remember the Title but do Remember the covers appearence. It is really goood reading and now I will purchase it. Knew I should have asked sooner.
My Thanks Again.
Wayne Traxel
Posted By: Wayne Traxel | Posted on: Feb 1, 2009 - 5:33pm
Total Posts: 248 | Joined: Oct 11, 2006 - 5:40am
Dick, I was away for a while so please excuse my delayed thanks! That is awesome looking! I really appreciate it. I'll be heading over to Kinkos so I can share it with my family. Incredible job!
Grandson of James J Stanton
RON 15 PT 209 and RON 23 PT 243
Check out: www.pistolpackinmama.net
Posted By: newsnerd99 | Posted on: Feb 2, 2009 - 12:52am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
Glad to help Wayne.
One thing I noticed at [url]http://louisdl.louislibraries.org/cdm4/browse.php?CISOROOT=/HIC[/url] was that Higgins experimented with stepped hull designs also, at least on paper. I've no clue if they did any actual hull mods to test though.
Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Feb 2, 2009 - 7:41am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am
Al . . .
I have a second set of typical section, If I recall correctly at least one showed gun turrets. If any of these second set leads to additional info I'll post those cross-sections.
Dick . . . .
Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Feb 3, 2009 - 11:12pm
Total Posts: 1417 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm
Thanks all, your nice comments are greatly appreciated. I still have some minor tweaking on the Higgins, then I’ll be attempting to uncover enough technical info to start a Huckins Project, which looks very, very doubtful and also to finalize my ELCO 77' I started over ten years ago. The 77’ needs a lot of detail added, it currently look very plain.
I’ve requested from the NARA any microfilm on Huckins PT Boats, also request the same for Higgins. Awhile back I request ELCO and they provide 6 rolls which I purchased – however I think the chances for Huckins is not too promising. Anyone that has knowledge of Huckins engineering (drawing) please let me know.
We'll just have to see what 2009 brings and how early I can start a project.
All the best,
Dick . . . .
Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Feb 3, 2009 - 11:22pm
Total Posts: 1417 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm
Try contacting Huckins directly Dick. I THINK they're still in business and have an archives but if memory serves - they charge heavily.
Posted By: TGConnelly | Posted on: Feb 4, 2009 - 6:39am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
Thanks, Dick. Would be interested in seeing the other type sections. I also have some HUCKINS stuff that may be useful. Will dig it out for you.
Al
Posted By: alross2 | Posted on: Feb 4, 2009 - 7:17am
Total Posts: 993 | Joined: Oct 30, 2006 - 8:19pm
Hi Dick,
Did you ever find that set of type sections that showed the turrets? I'm drawing this weekend and could work on the GA for 71-84 if I had them... :-}.
Al Ross
Posted By: alross2 | Posted on: Mar 6, 2009 - 1:06pm
Total Posts: 993 | Joined: Oct 30, 2006 - 8:19pm
Hi Al,
I'll pull them, I'm sure I had them reduced so I could more easily scan them in pieces. I'll scan what I have and post them so you can download them. It should be two sets of WT sections ( a dozen or so views). However it won't be until later tonight (West Coast time.)
Sorry, I completely forgot - I think I'll blame it on old age creeping in.
Dick
Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Mar 6, 2009 - 2:16pm
Total Posts: 1417 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm
AL . . . .
This is in two parts . . .
Below are links you can click on and view the drawing and right click to save to your computer, or you can just right click on each link and save to your computer. Beware the files are large, hope you don't have a dial-up modem, god forbid. The bulkhead files are about 1.5MB each (roughly 10"x15" x 300 dpi resolution). The overall files are about 5MB each (30"x16" at 300 dpi resolution). The files are all Jpeg Gray Scales.
Sorry Files have been removed,
Dick
Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Mar 7, 2009 - 2:22am
Total Posts: 1417 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm
2nd Part
Files have been removed
Dick . . .
Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Mar 7, 2009 - 2:31am
Total Posts: 1417 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm
Al . . .
If you note you will see:
WT-19-01 includes the upper deck section, it shows the windscreen parallel to the horizon rather contoured to the chart house. The Search Light and Bell hanging on the exterior side of the charthouse.
WT-19-02 includes the backside of the chart house with the Companionway door in the center of the charthouse (similar, I believe, to the first Higgins Prototypes, PT-5 and PT-6. Duplicate controls on the right side. Inside the Ward Room the desk built on forward wall of the Ward Room bulkhead (instead of the typical Aft Wall.)
WT-26-01 includes a back wall of the super structure (bridge) with an exit (companion way to the aft deck.), The built in desk for the second officer. (not typical on the Higgins.) In the berth area, a watertight hatch into the engine room.
WT-30-01 Includes compartment structures/walls that run the extended length-wise into the aft deck area and stopping at the torpedo tubes (as shown in the early Higgins construction photos on Gene’s PT-King website, I tink PT-71 & PT-72.)
WT-30-02 Includes (like the above section) compartment structures/walls that run the extend length-wise into the aft deck area and stopping at the torpedo tubes (as shown in the early Higgins construction photos on Gene’s PT-King website.) Also includes ventilation and blowers into the engine room and storage opposite. Also the water-tight bulkhead hatch into the second officer’s berth area.
WT-46-02 includes a second crew’s head for the aft storage/crews quarters. Addition vertical structural components in the Aft Head, which supports the Russian Version of the 20mm Gun position. Liquid storage tanks in the port and starboard wings of the haul. One for potable water for the Head the other for fuel for the electrical generator located in the Engine room (opposite this bulkhead.)
WT-51-01 includes four fixed berth location for, I guess, secondary configuration of using the aft storage section. Two water-tight hatches into the aft Fuel Room located in the port and starboard wings of the haul.
On the Set 2 (second set of drawing for Bulkhead Sections,) you will note the charthouse/superstructure is brought more into line with the actual Higgins boats we’re use to seeing. Also notable, the Aft Fuel Tank Section doesn’t show the Aft Crew’s Head. And the Aft Storage Section no longer showing crew bunks, however there are drawings at he UNO Digital Library that do show a modification to the aft storage area to include two chain hung pipe berths and two built-in berths.
I wish I could find more Higgins engineering to dig really deep into the boat and all of its change notices and revisions to find out more detailed information.
Richard J. Washichek . . . .
Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Mar 7, 2009 - 9:40am
Total Posts: 1417 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm
I will be removing the above image file links tonight (Sunday, March 08, 2009) around 11:00 pm West Coast PDT.
Thanks,
Dick . . .
Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Mar 8, 2009 - 1:43pm
Total Posts: 1417 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm
Thanks, Dick. These are very useful drawings. Had hoped the original turret positions had been shown, but I can come up with a reasonable approximation of their locations based on the photos, these bulkhead locations, and known dimensions of the turrets. Will post when I get them done.
Al
Posted By: alross2 | Posted on: Mar 8, 2009 - 4:31pm
Total Posts: 993 | Joined: Oct 30, 2006 - 8:19pm
Hey Newsnerd?
PLEASE contact me offsite ... Thank you.
Garth
Posted By: TGConnelly | Posted on: Mar 11, 2009 - 8:26am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered