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» Forum Name: PT Boats - General
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» Topic:
sleeve rank placement
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Hello Guys
Can anyone tell me which side the PT BOAT PATCH went on the DRESS BLUE UNIFORM. This man was a Pharmacist Mate having served with Ron 31, and his 1/c rank is on the left shoulder. Will Day thought it was on the same side as the Rank. I checked my 1943 Blue jacket Manual and did not find that info ( unless I missed it, there are 1 million pages in the thing )Thanks for any information..........
Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Aug 8, 2008 - 11:07am
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am
The official PT Patch (Blue with the Torpedo) went on the left sleeve at the shoulder.
Charlie
Posted By: 29navy | Posted on: Aug 13, 2008 - 11:37am
Total Posts: 600 | Joined: Dec 28, 2006 - 3:02pm
charlie, did this always hold tru no matter what the rank was on the sleeve. I have seen some with the PT BOAT PATCH on the right sleeve. It gets confusing I guess............
Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Aug 13, 2008 - 12:14pm
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am
Hi Frank! Here's what my grandfather's uniform looks like...this was taken of the back of the uniform, as if you were standing behind the sailor, so left is left and right is right.
[IMaGe]http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e362/newsnerd99/DSCN5480.jpg[/IMaGe]
Grandson of James J Stanton
RON 15 PT 209 and RON 23 PT 243
Check out: www.pistolpackinmama.net
Posted By: newsnerd99 | Posted on: Aug 13, 2008 - 3:09pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
mine was on the left shoulder earl
earl richmond
Posted By: EARL RICHMOND | Posted on: Aug 13, 2008 - 3:23pm
Total Posts: 319 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 1:50pm
The picture of the navy uniform is incorrect. The quartermaster rating is a right arm rate. How in heck did it get put on the left arm ?
I believe the right arm of the unifrom is placed across rhe jumper to show the flap on the back and the rate at the same time.
I had the same rate as shown in this picture.
Russ
Posted By: Russell Pullano | Posted on: Aug 13, 2008 - 4:32pm
Total Posts: 131 | Joined: Oct 23, 2006 - 7:31am
In the picture, the rate patch definitely appears to be on the left sleeve. Quartermaster was a right arm rate until some time after WII. Was the picture accidentally printed with the negative reversed?
Regarding the PT patch, I do not believe that it was an officially authorized uniform part. We still attached them. I had a right arm rate with the PT patch at the left shoulder seam or a little below.
Posted By: QM | Posted on: Aug 13, 2008 - 6:37pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
Upon further examination of the picture, if the negative had been reversed, the PT on the patch would be reversed.
Is this a right arm rate that was later sewed on the left sleeve? Should the eagle,'s head face forward on the rate patch? I have no pictures or uniforms to refer to.
Posted By: QM | Posted on: Aug 13, 2008 - 6:52pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
I have found out that which ever way the Eagle is facing is the placement of the rank on the sleeve. Eagle faces right ( right sleeve placement) eagle faces left, left sleeve placement.Now that's all well and good, but does not answer the question as to where the PT BOAT PATCH gets placed, as some original uniforms I have show the placement on both sleeves. Some have the rank on left side, with PT BOAT patch on the same side, some have rank on one side, with PT BOAT patch on the other..........
Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Aug 13, 2008 - 7:20pm
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am
I don't know about whatever the eagle is facing, but i do know that above deck rates go on the right arm and below rates go on the left arm
Posted By: Russell Pullano | Posted on: Aug 13, 2008 - 7:38pm
Total Posts: 131 | Joined: Oct 23, 2006 - 7:31am
THIS IS FROM THE NAVAL HISTORY WEBSITE: (Department of the Navy, Naval Historical Center)
[b]Petty Officer Rating Badge Locations and Eagle Designs[/b]
Related Resources: Ratings (Jobs) of Enlisted Personnel in the U.S. Navy
The uniform regulations of 19 February 1841 introduced a sleeve mark for the uniforms of petty officers consisting of an eagle facing left (from the wearer's perspective) with wings pointed down, while perched on a fouled anchor. It was to be worn half way between the elbow and shoulder on the front of the sleeve. Boatswain's Mates, Gunner's Mates, Carpenter's Mates, Masters at Arms, Ship's Stewards and Ship's Cooks wore it on the right sleeve while [b]Quarter Masters, Quarter Gunners, Captains of the Forecastle, Captains of Tops, Captains of the Afterguard, Armorers, Coopers, Ship's Corporals and Captains of the Hold wore it on [red]the left sleeve.[/b][/red] It was difficult to distinguish between different ratings using this system.
The uniform regulations of 1 December 1866 introduced a system of rating badges, with eight specialty marks. Depending on design and where these badges were worn, thirteen ratings could be identified.
A petty officer rating badge incorporating an eagle, specialty mark and chevrons with points down was introduced in the uniform regulations of 1886. The eagle faced left with its wings pointed horizontally to the sides. The regulations specified that petty officers of the starboard watch were to wear rating badges on their right sleeves. The left sleeve was to be used for those on the port watch.
General Order 431, dated 24 September 1894, changed the eagle's wings to point upward, though the eagle continued to face to the left.
The uniform regulations of 25 January 1913 changed the location of rating badges so that ratings badges were no longer worn on the sleeves corresponding to assigned watches. Right arm rates were to signify men of the Seamen Branch; left arm rates were to be used by personnel of the Artificer Branch, Engine Room Force, and all other petty officers. The eagle continued to face left on all rating badges.
The uniform regulations of 31 May 1941 specified that the eagle was to face to the left in the rates comprising the Seaman Branch: Boatswain Mate, Turret Captain, Signalman, Gunner's Mate, Fire Controlman, Quartermaster, Mineman and Torpedoman's Mate. All other rating badges were to have an eagle facing to the right.
Right arm rates were disestablished 2 April 1949, after having been eliminated by Change #1, dated 24 February 1948, to the 1947 uniform regulations. All rating badges were to be worn on the left sleeve with the eagle facing to the right.
Dick . . .
Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Aug 14, 2008 - 12:12am
Total Posts: 1417 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm
It's possible that was the uniform my grandfather wore for his brief time in 1950...and added the PT patch to it later? That would account for the discrepencies.
Grandson of James J Stanton
RON 15 PT 209 and RON 23 PT 243
Check out: www.pistolpackinmama.net
Posted By: newsnerd99 | Posted on: Aug 14, 2008 - 12:22am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
OK, here's the official poop on the PT PTpatches:
On August 11, 1943, the Navy authorized, via Bureau of Personnel Circular Letter (BPCL) 153-43 as a change to the Uniform Regulations, the Patrol Torpedo Boat distinguishing mark consisting of the block letters “PT”. Enlisted men serving aboard PT Boats were authorized to wear this mark on the left sleeve of their blue and white uniform jumper, halfway between the wrist and elbow. The letters are to be embroidered in silk or rayon, in white on blue clothing and in blue on white clothing. Although not documented as authorized, the “PT” mark is also seen embroidered inside a diamond and a circle. It was also available in gray for the Chief Petty Officer grey uniform.
The block “PT” mark was replaced by the PT Boat shoulder insignia authorized September 14, 1944 via BPCL 265-44. This insignia was circular with a rope-design around the edge, inside were the letters “PT” and a torpedo with one line coming off the top and three coming off the bottom to signify the wake as the torpedo goes through the water. It is specified as being white on a Navy blue background. There is no white version for the white uniform as this is a shoulder patch signifying a special branch. It is very rare to see this patch on a white uniform. This insignia is to be worn on the left sleeve, the top to be ½-inch below the shoulder seam. While this was authorized for enlisted men, there was no special insignia or other badge for the PT Officers.
In the Circular Letter, it defines the wearers’ qualifications as “enlisted personnel regularly attached to motor torpedo boat squadrons. Enlisted personnel of the motor torpedo boat squadrons are considered to be those who have been designated as qualified to serve in motor torpedo boats and who are assigned to motor torpedo boat duty.” Personnel who were assigned to base components or tenders were not authorized to wear this insignia unless they were qualified and authorized to wear it from a previous assignment. The Navy only authorized four shoulder sleeve patches during WWII: Seabees, Amphibious Forces, Minecraft, and PT Boats.
The Disney Moquito patch was unauthorized, but tolerated.
Charlie
Posted By: 29navy | Posted on: Aug 14, 2008 - 6:07am
Total Posts: 600 | Joined: Dec 28, 2006 - 3:02pm
Thank You Charlie very much for the information. I will put it to good use.....
Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Aug 14, 2008 - 6:28am
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am
I am pleased to learn that we were wearing an authorized PT patch.
I located some old pictures. My PT patch is on the left shoulder as described above.
Posted By: QM | Posted on: Aug 14, 2008 - 8:17am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
James, it appears your grandfather's uniform is correct according to the above posts.
Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Aug 14, 2008 - 8:23am
Total Posts: 1417 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm
This is a good thread...but I'm still all over the place. I figured I go to the photographic evidence to see what's what. Here we go:
Boston, December 1943:
[image]http://www.pistolpackinmama.net/pb/wp_736ee9c6/images/img3069946de63e4ae664.jpg[/image]
Boston, between January and April, 1944:
[image]http://www.pistolpackinmama.net/pb/wp_736ee9c6/images/img227146f25baa84124.jpg[/image]
Norfolk, VA April 1944:
[image]http://www.pistolpackinmama.net/pb/wp_00c851d2/images/img24571471ccb06b7b73.jpg[/image]
Miami, February 1946:
[image]http://www.pistolpackinmama.net/pb/wp_509746b5/images/img31403470f489314aa9.jpg[/image]
Miami, 1947:
[image]http://www.pistolpackinmama.net/pb/wp_1f5df4c3/images/img19327470f61574eb23.jpg [/image]
It looks like it is opposite of what is on the uniform now? Again, it is highly likely this uniform is from his naval reserves time from 1947-1950.
Grandson of James J Stanton
RON 15 PT 209 and RON 23 PT 243
Check out: www.pistolpackinmama.net
Posted By: newsnerd99 | Posted on: Aug 14, 2008 - 1:19pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
I appreciate seeing the picture of the two with beers, one a right arm rate and the other a left arm rate. It appears that the eagle's head is facing forward on both. I could not find a picture of any left arm rates in my files and I was uncertain if my memory was correct until seeing this picture. The eagle always looks forward.
In the picture posted earlier, the QM patch is on the left sleeve, with the eagle's head facing back. It appears that the right arm patch has been moved to the left arm. I believe that would have been changed on post 1948 patches.
I really enjoy seeing the many pictures posted here.
Posted By: QM | Posted on: Aug 14, 2008 - 2:19pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
I had a right arm rating - Torpedoman. Although I was a gunner at general quarters. My PT patch is on the left sleeve. I have my marriage photo to prove it.
C. J. Willis
Posted By: CJ Willis | Posted on: Aug 14, 2008 - 2:26pm
Total Posts: 464 | Joined: Nov 5, 2006 - 5:02pm
If you look at photo number 5, you will see one eagle facing left, and one facing right to indicate what I had said in an ealier post that which ever way the eagle was facing indicates which arm the rate was sewn onto. Also, you can clearly see the man on the left has the PT BOAT PATCH sewn on his opposite shoulder, which again proves what I had said about some uniforms I have in my Exhibit, with the PT BOAT PATCH on the other shoulder. This still leaves me back to square one. What side would the PT BOAT PATCH have been on if this man was a Pharmacist Mate?
Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Aug 14, 2008 - 4:06pm
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am
The Pharm. Mate patch would be worn on the left sleeve.
Regarding the picture of the QM 1/c patch on the left sleeve, consider switching it back to the right sleeve. That would restore the uniform to the WW II configuration. The PT patch is correct on the left shoulder. An earlier posting has quoted the applicable regulation.
Posted By: QM | Posted on: Aug 14, 2008 - 5:25pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
I gave an incomplete answer regarding the Pharm. Mate. Both the PT patch and the Pharm. Mate patch would be worn on the left sleeve, with the PT patch near the shoulder where you have seen it in other pictures.
Posted By: QM | Posted on: Aug 14, 2008 - 5:34pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
Thank You QM. I can now hit the sack with this burning question answered.............
Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Aug 14, 2008 - 6:24pm
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am
Not so fast Frank, get your old ass out of bed and wipe he sleep from your eyes - now is the Department of the Navy wrong or am I missing something here or am I just really missing something right in front of my eyes. As Detailed in an earlier post:
[b]Petty Officer Rating Badge Locations and Eagle Designs[/b]
Boatswain's Mates, Gunner's Mates, Carpenter's Mates, Masters at Arms, Ship's Stewards and Ship's Cooks wore it on the [b]right sleeve[/b] . . . .
while [b]Quarter Masters[/b], Quarter Gunners, Captains of the Forecastle, Captains of Tops, Captains of the Afterguard, Armorers, Coopers, Ship's Corporals and Captains of the Hold wore it on the [b]left sleeve. . . .[/b]
It was difficult to distinguish between different ratings using this system.
Then later added: all - Right arm rates were disestablished 2 April 1949 -
Now searching the web I found WWII images with the Quartermaster rating on the left sleeve as well as on the right sleeve as if the rules were loose and fast. See the dress White below and the display case of a USS Texas crew member's uniform:
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Webmaster/uniform-01.jpg[/image]
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Webmaster/uniform-02.jpg[/image]
(I don't pretend to suggest these uniforms above are Quarter Masters uniforms - just a sample - one appears to be a Ship Fitter/Metalsmith and a Gunner's Mate.)
Okay, Frank you can go ahead and hit the sack now - just some thoughts
All the best,
Dick . . . .
Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Aug 15, 2008 - 12:14am
Total Posts: 1417 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm
This is great! There are more opinions and posts here than on whether or not Ballard found the 109!
Grandson of James J Stanton
RON 15 PT 209 and RON 23 PT 243
Check out: www.pistolpackinmama.net
Posted By: newsnerd99 | Posted on: Aug 15, 2008 - 12:45am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
Ok, the sleep is removed from my eyes, and now I hope your happy because I am more confused then ever. Here we go again, God lets not mention Ballard and PT 109 because that will no doubt open up the flood gates............
Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Aug 15, 2008 - 5:15am
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am
HAHAHAHAHA!
Grandson of James J Stanton
RON 15 PT 209 and RON 23 PT 243
Check out: www.pistolpackinmama.net
Posted By: newsnerd99 | Posted on: Aug 15, 2008 - 8:09am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
Frank, You should know better then to think something will really be resolved on this message board. Whenever you think it is, some one pokes a finger in your eye - 
However its always in good fun, at least I hope ! ! ! ! !
Have a good one . . . .
Dick . . . .
Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Aug 15, 2008 - 8:54am
Total Posts: 1417 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm
I love it, even if we all have differnt opinions. That's what makes the world go round. NOW BACK TO THE BURNING QUESTION,DID BALLARD FIND PT 109? JUST KIDDING...............
Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Aug 15, 2008 - 10:39am
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am
The gunners mate patch on the Texas is not a WWII patch. It is on the left sleeve with the eagle's head turned forward. On the earlier pictured QM patch on the left sleeve, the eagle's head is turned to the rear. That indicates that the QM patch was a WWII patch designed to be on the right sleeve where the eagle's head would be turned forward. It may have been permissible to use the old patch on the left after the change made to all left arm patches. On the newer patches the eagle's head is turned forward.
There is also a picture posted here with a right sleeve rate [QM] and a left sleeve rate [aviation]. The eagle's head on both is turned forward.
For the WWII rate patches an easy way to determine left or right, but probably not one hundred percent, is the skills used. Left arm rates involved skills which could be used in civilian life. Right arm rates were generally of no use in civilian life.
Posted By: QM | Posted on: Aug 15, 2008 - 11:05am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
Doesn't matter what rate it is. The PT Patch is supposed to be on the left sleeve.
Charlie
Posted By: 29navy | Posted on: Aug 15, 2008 - 1:36pm
Total Posts: 600 | Joined: Dec 28, 2006 - 3:02pm
Not so fast Frank, get your old ass out of bed and wipe he sleep from your eyes - now is the Department of the Navy wrong or am I missing something here or am I just really missing something right in front of my eyes. As Detailed in an earlier post:
[b]Petty Officer Rating Badge Locations and Eagle Designs[/b]
Boatswain's Mates, Gunner's Mates, Carpenter's Mates, Masters at Arms, Ship's Stewards and Ship's Cooks wore it on the [b]right sleeve[/b] . . . .
while [b]Quarter Masters[/b], Quarter Gunners, Captains of the Forecastle, Captains of Tops, Captains of the Afterguard, Armorers, Coopers, Ship's Corporals and Captains of the Hold wore it on the [b]left sleeve. . . .[/b]
It was difficult to distinguish between different ratings using this system.
Then later added: all - Right arm rates were disestablished 2 April 1949 -
Now searching the web I found WWII images with the Quartermaster rating on the left sleeve as well as on the right sleeve as if the rules were loose and fast. See the dress White below and the display case of a USS Texas crew member's uniform:
(I don't pretend to suggest these uniforms above are Quarter Masters uniforms - just a sample - one appears to be a Ship Fitter/Metalsmith and a Gunner's Mate.)
Okay, Frank you can go ahead and hit the sack now - just some thoughts
All the best,
Dick . . . .
Dick, you're mixing the 1841 regs quote with 1941. The 1941 regs is what matters here.
Charlie
Posted By: 29navy | Posted on: Aug 15, 2008 - 1:44pm
Total Posts: 600 | Joined: Dec 28, 2006 - 3:02pm