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» Forum Name: PT Boats - General
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» Topic: 37 mm. Stern mounted guns
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Our boat P.T. 242 and I believe all Squadron 19 boats were outfitted with Army artillery type 37mm guns mounted on the stern. They were two man operated like the 40mm. These guns required a different cartridge than the Aircraft type 37mm. we had on the bow. I know most of the later squadrons were equipped with the 40 mm which I think was a much more powerful and better gun. I was wondering how many boats were equipped with this Army Artillery type gun?

C. J. Willis

Posted By: CJ Willis | Posted on: Apr 8, 2008 - 11:32am
Total Posts: 464 | Joined: Nov 5, 2006 - 5:02pm



Are you referring to the 37mm M3 anti-tank gun? It was a single shot gun originally mounted on a carriage with wheels and it had an armour shield. ALEX



Posted By: Alex Johnson | Posted on: Apr 8, 2008 - 2:23pm
Total Posts: 70 | Joined: Mar 2, 2007 - 12:07pm



Hello CJ,

There was a M-9 37mm and I believe the mount was M1A2. From what I can recall of the drawing It was a tubular framed mount with seats and foot pedals and hand cranks similiar to the 40mm Bofors, only not as big. The feature noted about the gun is that it was belt fed. Had the manual in my hand 6 years ago but never purchased it. Have always wondered since if this mount could ever found its way on a PT.

Is this what you had on 242, CJ?

Wayne Traxel

Posted By: Wayne Traxel | Posted on: Apr 8, 2008 - 5:39pm
Total Posts: 248 | Joined: Oct 11, 2006 - 5:40am



Wayne: That sounds like the gun. Yes, it had seats , foot pedals and hand cranks and I believe it was belt fed. It was pretty rapid fire. One guy operated the horizontal and another the vertical movement. We had one guy as loader. I never fired or had much to do with the gun. I was a twin fifty turret gunner. I always thought it was an Army field artillery gun. I was not aboard when this gun was mounted but crew members told me that they were put on when they got off the tankers at New Hebrides. The 20 mm was removed from the stern and placed midships and these guns were mounted on the stern. Our boat also got the aircraft 37 mm on the bow at the same time. I believe Squadron 20 also had these guns.

C. J. Willis

Posted By: CJ Willis | Posted on: Apr 8, 2008 - 7:22pm
Total Posts: 464 | Joined: Nov 5, 2006 - 5:02pm




testing...

[image]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/37mm_Gun_M1[/image]



Posted By: comcardiv1 | Posted on: Apr 9, 2008 - 3:22pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered




Dagnabbit...

Here's a Wikipedia link--think that this may be the gun in question?

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:37mm_Antiaircraft_gun_in_Solomons.jpg[/url]

Gene K.




Posted By: comcardiv1 | Posted on: Apr 9, 2008 - 3:35pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered



Hello CJ, Rats.!!! Knew I should have purchased that manual. Hind site strikes again. But did purchase the manual featuring the gun portion of the mount and it is the M-9, 37mm. The M-9 had a slower rate of fire than the M-4 37mm off the P-39 Air Cobra. The M-9 did have more punch than the M-4 and a slightly lower rate than the 40MM Bofors. The M-9, 37mm gun became the standard bow gun on PT's late in the war.

Have enclosed some scans of the M-9 form the manual that was purchased.

[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/M-937MM.jpg[/image]

[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/M-937MMBeltfedAmmunition.jpg[/image]

[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/M-937MMBeltFedRoundsinM-9Breech.jpg[/image]

Wayne Traxel

Posted By: Wayne Traxel | Posted on: Apr 9, 2008 - 6:31pm
Total Posts: 248 | Joined: Oct 11, 2006 - 5:40am



Gene and Wayne: The barrel and gun sights certainly look the same. The photo doesn't show the cranks and seats but they must be there. I believe our barrel had a flash shield on the end. Wayne was the cartridge for the Aircobra gun bottle shaped or was it just straight sides?

C. J. Willis

Posted By: CJ Willis | Posted on: Apr 9, 2008 - 7:05pm
Total Posts: 464 | Joined: Nov 5, 2006 - 5:02pm



Hello CJ, That's a good question. I'm not an expert, but have seen pictures of M-4's with shells that appear straight and have viewed other photos of M-4' with shells having the tapered bottle shaped appearence shells. My take on all of this is that the M-4 salvaged from the P-39's may have been an earlier model and was chambered different from the M-4's that appeared later.

[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/scan0035.jpg[/image]
Scanned this from Frank Johnson book page 75 shells appear to be straight.

[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/37mmPT-331.jpg[/image]
37MM M-4 on PT-331 in summer of 1944 has what appears to be all tapered shells

[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/37MMM-4.jpg[/image]
37MM M-4 on PT-361 Spring 1945 appears to have a mixture of straight and tapered shells.

You really have my attention with the 37MM aft mount you had on 242. By chance would you have any pictures of it?

I have an unfinished 1/24th Higgins and at this point PT-242 looks like an excellent Modeling Subject.

Wayne Traxel

Posted By: Wayne Traxel | Posted on: Apr 10, 2008 - 10:40am
Total Posts: 248 | Joined: Oct 11, 2006 - 5:40am



The image from Gene's post above:

FROM: Wikipedia.org link above . . . .

Description: 37mm Antiaircraft gun manned by soldiers of Battery F, 70th Coast Artillery, is one of many such weapons emplaced for the protection of Wickham Anchorage and Viru Harbor. Friendly small craft pushing between Rendova and supply bases to the rear found sanctuar from enemy air attack under the protection of these and other antiaircraft weapons.
Source: ibiblio.org a collaboration of the centerforthepublicdomain.org
Post-Work: W.Wolny

[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/37mm_Antiaircraft_gun_in_Solomons.jpg[/image]





Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Apr 10, 2008 - 10:55am
Total Posts: 1417 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm



Wayne: I do not have any pictures showing the gun. There is a picture of our boat on page 223 of Buckley's "At Close Quarters" but the rear tarp has the gun covered. As I mentioned earlier I do not believe the 37 mm ammunition was interchangeable between the bow gun and the stern gun.

C. J. Willis

Posted By: CJ Willis | Posted on: Apr 10, 2008 - 1:05pm
Total Posts: 464 | Joined: Nov 5, 2006 - 5:02pm



Here's a shot of RON 36 Boats nested with the 37mm gun mounted astern

[IMaGe]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Gary%20Szot/Nested.jpg[/IMaGe]



Posted By: Gary Szot | Posted on: Apr 10, 2008 - 6:09pm
Total Posts: 193 | Joined: Feb 12, 2007 - 1:00pm



I enlarged a section of Gary's photo for a better look at the aft armament:

[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Ron36_NestedEnlarged.jpg[/image]

Dick . . . . .



Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Apr 10, 2008 - 7:18pm
Total Posts: 1417 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm



[IMaGe]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Gary%20Szot/37mm.jpg[/IMaGe]

Here's a shot of the gunners positions. My dad is on the left.

2nd GEN RON 36





Posted By: Gary Szot | Posted on: Apr 10, 2008 - 8:30pm
Total Posts: 193 | Joined: Feb 12, 2007 - 1:00pm



Hello CJ,
While talking to fellow modeler, Alex Johnson over the phone last night, Alex mentioned having an Army M-4 37MM Tech manual "vintage 1942". First question I asked him was about the shells shape. Shell casings on this gun are indeed straight and range in length from 12 7/8" to 12 5/8'' depending on the type of round . It also appears that this gun also could also be fitted with a 15 round belt fed clip.

It does appear your aft mount on PT-242 was a M1A2 with an M-9, 37MM, a more robust gun with the tapered shells that are not interchangeable with 242's bow mounted M-4.



Wayne Traxel

Posted By: Wayne Traxel | Posted on: Apr 11, 2008 - 8:00am
Total Posts: 248 | Joined: Oct 11, 2006 - 5:40am



The really interesting thing here that CJ brought to our attention is the fact that PT BOATS used this type of weapon as a stern mount. I must admit, I never knew they used this weapon on the stern. I have seen this type on the Bow before. Certainly not as hard hitting as the 40MM Bofors, I wonder if the boats at some point changed to the heavier weapon, and were the 37MM guns installed at the HIGGINS FACTORY or in the field. Interesting topic no doubt.



Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Apr 11, 2008 - 8:23am
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am




Were these 37mm's converted to a top feed breech, like the Bofor's 40mm. The enlarged photo show guns with top mount ammo guide rails just like the 40mm's.

Does anyone know about this modification?

Dick . . .



Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Apr 11, 2008 - 11:41am
Total Posts: 1417 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm



Frank, you raise a great point. It's easy to assume that all boats replaced their factory-mounted 20mm stern guns directly with the 40mm mounts. Indeed, as CJ has brought to our attention, other mounts were used. I know PT 190 carried an M4 37mm gun aft on the Mark 10 stand and PT 155 carried an M4 37mm gun on the original Mark 4 mount on the stern. Very interesting information and discussion - thanks for sharing, everybody! ALEX



Posted By: Alex Johnson | Posted on: Apr 11, 2008 - 1:01pm
Total Posts: 70 | Joined: Mar 2, 2007 - 12:07pm



Frank: I am sure our boat was outfitted with this gun at Espirto Santo. Bill Metcalf Gm 1/c was elevation operator and Chas. McIntosh MM1/c was the tracker. They said they practiced firing for the first time at Espirto Santos which was the main overhaul base at the time, October 1943. The gun was on the boat when we were relieved from duty in November 1944. The new crew took the boat to the Philippines shortly after that. I assume the gun was on the boat until it was burned at the end of the war.
C. J. Willis

Posted By: CJ Willis | Posted on: Apr 11, 2008 - 6:48pm
Total Posts: 464 | Joined: Nov 5, 2006 - 5:02pm



I am hoping that someone here can comment on this. My dad told me that when they were barge busting the crew decided they needed more punch so they scavanged a 37mm gun from the Army and jury rigged it to the bow of the boat. This picture seems to show that they have an artillery piece placed on the bow with palm tree logs to hold it in place. If you look close on this picture you will see it pretty clearly.

Was this prevalent in mostt RON's ? I've seen all kinds of armament on these boats so nothing will really surprise me.

[IMaGe]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/12DeckGun.jpg[/IMaGe]



Posted By: Gary Szot | Posted on: Apr 11, 2008 - 8:10pm
Total Posts: 193 | Joined: Feb 12, 2007 - 1:00pm



This is a very interesting discussion on the 37mm. I always assumed that anything back there with 2 seats was a 40mm. This is a 37mm antiaircraft gun different than the 37mm we're accustomed to on the bow of the boat. Looking around on the web there are some of these posted and they have top feed magazines like the 40mm Bofors. Amazing!

Gary, there were a few boats with the single shot 37mm anti tank gun mounted on the foredeck. PT-109 was famous for having one lashed to the deck. But even this was only to be a temporary solution. PT-169 has a single shot 37mm anti tank gun on a swivel mount on the bow. All of these are mounted close to the deck. I can't quite tell from your picture just what that is on the deck. But it's tall whatever it is! Do you have any more pictures?

Dave

David Waples

Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Apr 12, 2008 - 12:19pm
Total Posts: 1679 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm



David;

This is the only shot I have of the gun on the bow. The way they have it rigged I wonder if they were worried the first time they shot it.



Posted By: Gary Szot | Posted on: Apr 12, 2008 - 1:34pm
Total Posts: 193 | Joined: Feb 12, 2007 - 1:00pm




While searching the web, I found this photo of a 37mm Army mount--the gun is on display at Fort Nellis, Nevada.

Gene Kirkland


[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/id_aaa_37mm_nellis_700.jpg[/image]






Posted By: comcardiv1 | Posted on: Apr 13, 2008 - 8:39am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered



If you check my entry that says Ron 19 photo's. you will see those 37MM guns on picture 2 which shows 2 Higgins PT BOATS from Ron 19.



Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Apr 13, 2008 - 9:15am
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am



[IMaGe]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Gary%20Szot/August201.jpg[/IMaGe]

Is this a 40mm BOFOR?



Posted By: Gary Szot | Posted on: Apr 21, 2008 - 3:54pm
Total Posts: 193 | Joined: Feb 12, 2007 - 1:00pm



Yes, that is.

Gene K.



Posted By: comcardiv1 | Posted on: Apr 21, 2008 - 4:03pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered