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» Forum Category: PT Boats of WWII
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» Forum Name: PT Boats - General
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» Topic:
As Requested an Enlargement of unknown ELCO 77'
http://www.ptboatforum.com/cgi-bin/MB2/netboardr.cgi?cid=101&fid=102&tid=665
As requested, an enlargement of a posted image. Image pixels have started to blow-out because the heavy enlargement of low resolution posted image - resulting in poor quality.
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Unknow-77-offload-01.jpg[/image]
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Unknow-77-offload-02.jpg[/image]
Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Mar 20, 2008 - 9:01am
Total Posts: 1417 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm
Hello Dick,
Thank you for the enlargement. Put YC700 barge "Mystery PT" picture on my photo program and lightened the photo at the stern. This craft does have an overhang which was featured on PT's 59 through 68. These boats also had turret lockers ( box like structure aft of turrets). Its not 59 as she had SO Radar mounted in the location where the lockers were and she had shed her torpedo tubes when converted to a gun boat. the boat on YC700 is not 47 or 48 as they were not built with lockers or overhangs and had radar mounted behind turrets like 59. PT-48 also shed her torpedo tubes for had aerial torpedos and racks. As Ted mentioned six boats were normally shipped at a time. Early 77 footer series PT's 39 and 40 we know came back and now we see 38 for a total of six. So what is the number of that boat on YC700? And is it the same boat featured in Franks dock side photo?
Thanks again for these great photos.
Wayne Traxel
Posted By: Wayne Traxel | Posted on: Mar 20, 2008 - 2:06pm
Total Posts: 248 | Joined: Oct 11, 2006 - 5:40am
Wayne;
Look at what is going on in the full photo in the previous post, this boat being lifted is probably PT 40, but it might be a different day so it might be PT 38 or 39, check out the notch behind the cockpit. It is definatly a first series boat. What we need Dick to do is enlarge the photo of the boat being lifted off YC 700, not this photo.
Thanks,
TED
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Mar 20, 2008 - 2:25pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
Thanks, Frank, for these great photos and Dick, for their detailed enlargements. Keep 'em coming!
Posted By: Drew Cook | Posted on: Mar 20, 2008 - 5:26pm
Total Posts: 1306 | Joined: Oct 19, 2006 - 10:44am
Let's try this:
[image]http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm86/29navy/PT%20Boats/combatboatsarriveatmtbstccrop.jpg[/image]
Charlie
PS: I corrected the link, Dick . . . . .
Posted By: 29navy | Posted on: Mar 20, 2008 - 5:37pm
Total Posts: 600 | Joined: Dec 28, 2006 - 3:02pm
Hello Ted,
I agree, the first photo that Dick scanned is clearly an early series 77 footer being lifted off a barge, and as Charlie indicated, it is PT-40 being unloaded.
However, my comments were directed at the second photo Dick scanned showing a boat sitting on barge YC700. This second picture is clearly a later 59 to 68 series 77 footer. The rear portion of this charthouse flows unbroken into the turret section. Behind the turrets is the rectangular storage bin/turret locker that was origionally designed for the 45-68 class but was not installed on PT's 47 and 48. In time SO radar was installed behind the turrets of 47 & 48. I have no pictures of 45 or 46 so I can't say if they ever had the structures. PT 59's storage bin was removed to accomodate the SO radar. The boat on Barge YC700 has the aft oval hatch off center to port found on the later 45-68 series boats. When I lightened the photo of barge boat, I could see the overhang/Stern Guard which was fitted on 59-68 only. PT's 47 and 48 did not have this structure and their sterns appeared as the 20-44 series boats. This seems to be taking the long way around describing why I don't believe the boat on Barge YC700 is 47,48 or 59. And they are not 38,39 or 40 either. I still think another 77 footer sneaked in.
But you know, as Frank said, someone who was there will have to esplain this.
Wayne Traxel
Posted By: Wayne Traxel | Posted on: Mar 20, 2008 - 6:05pm
Total Posts: 248 | Joined: Oct 11, 2006 - 5:40am
I've Copied Charlie's photo above - I'll see what I can do with it. I'll posted it when I get done.
Dick . . .
Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Mar 20, 2008 - 6:43pm
Total Posts: 1417 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm
Check out the 58 foot PT-4 styled boat In the background with an SO Radar installed ! ! ! ! !
Dick . . . .
Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Mar 20, 2008 - 6:46pm
Total Posts: 1417 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm
Check out the 58 foot PT-4 styled boat In the background with an SO Radar installed ! ! ! ! !
Dick . . . .
I noticed that and was more interested in that one than the others. I know that they used some of those early prototype boats up there as testing platforms. I was wondering if that was ex-PT-1 becasue I know it was up there. Don't think I've ever seen a photo of PT-1 to compare it to.
Charlie
Charlie
Posted By: 29navy | Posted on: Mar 21, 2008 - 5:08am
Total Posts: 600 | Joined: Dec 28, 2006 - 3:02pm
The cabin/bridge looks too short for any of the early PT's 1-4 and -8
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/58footPT.jpg[/image]
Enlargement of PT ? ? ? ? ? ?
Dick . . .
Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Mar 21, 2008 - 12:14pm
Total Posts: 1417 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm
Here is another enlargement of Barge Y700 off-loading
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/YC700Enlargement.jpg[/image]
Enlargement of Barge Y700 Off-Loading unknown 77' ELCO PT
Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Mar 21, 2008 - 12:24pm
Total Posts: 1417 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm
Here's a picture looking over the north side of MTBSTC. Note the 77-footer to the left. I think it is the one that is on the YC-700.
[IMAGE]http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm86/29navy/PT%20Boats/ThePoint.jpg[/IMAGE]
Here's a close-up (I hope).
[IMAGE]http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm86/29navy/PT%20Boats/point77cropcopy.jpg[/IMAGE]
Charlie
Charlie
Posted By: 29navy | Posted on: Mar 21, 2008 - 5:33pm
Total Posts: 600 | Joined: Dec 28, 2006 - 3:02pm
Hello Dick,
Once again thank you for taking the time to lighten up the enlarged Mystery 77 footer. It does resemble the latest picture provided by Charlie
Found these photos one is a PT40 something underway. Can't distinguish what the second number is, looks like a 6 to me but might be an 8 . At any rate this boat closely resembles the mystery boat on barge YC700.
The is second photo is also a second series boat that has the storage bin and the unique depth charge rack found on the mystery boat and the under way PT. Also PT-38 appears to have the same type of depth charge rack. Could you enlarge the underway boat to see if you can to identify this craft.
Thanks again for all the time you are putting in on this message board.
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/77Elcoscan3.jpg[/image]
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/77Elcoscan1.jpg[/image]
Wayne Traxel
Posted By: Wayne Traxel | Posted on: Mar 22, 2008 - 10:05am
Total Posts: 248 | Joined: Oct 11, 2006 - 5:40am
Wayne
I noticed in the photo you scanned of PT 40 with the sailor in the 50 mount. I see the old style ammo cans on both sides of the 50's. I thought they had changed that style by then to the ammo boxes on the inside of the turett. When did they change over to the more advanced type ammo feed on the 77 footers, and did some of them keep the original ammo boxes on the sides of the guns.....
Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Mar 22, 2008 - 10:15am
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am
Hi Wayne . . .
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/77Elcoscan1-enhanced.jpg[/image]
PT-46 or PT-48 that is the $64,000.00 question. Best I can do with out having my grubby little hands on the actual photograph and scan the number area only at about 600 DPI and at 1000 percent.
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/77Elcoscan3-Enhanced.jpg[/image]
Best I can do with low resolution images. Looks to be long steel rails running from the stiffening beam to the outboard edge of the deck. Maybe intended for two cans???
Dick . . .
Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Mar 22, 2008 - 2:34pm
Total Posts: 1417 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm
Hello Frank,
This mount was on Ron 3(2) PT's 36, 37, 38, 39 and 40 of the 20-44 series 77 footers and PT's 45, 46, 47 and 48 of the second series when they were shipped to Guadalcanal in the fall of 1942. I've also seen this mount on PT's 30 and 42. And I'm sure other 77 footers had them as well.
Until I viewed your photos featuring a stack of these stripped down mounts I never knew how well they made. Made from welded tubular frame with a small back rest and no counter weight they were designed to accept the gun cradles from the Dewandre mount.
PT's 59, 60 and 61 also of Ron 3 (2) had the Bell Mk-17 mounts when shipped to the Solomons. PT's 62 through 68 also received the Bell MK-17 mount.
I do know that PT 47 & 48 retained these earlier mounts when they were brought back to the US in August of 1944. Judging from your excellent Melville photos featuring that stack of stripped down mounts and the photo of PT-38, it seems that other 77 footers retained these mounts too.
I want to thank you Frank, for sharing those marvelous Melville Photos. It was very enlightening to see photos I had never seen before.
My thanks to Dick featuring Franks photos and for granting our many requests for photo enlargements.
I also want to thank Charlie for his photos and enlargments.
This has really been great.
Wayne Traxel
Posted By: Wayne Traxel | Posted on: Mar 22, 2008 - 6:30pm
Total Posts: 248 | Joined: Oct 11, 2006 - 5:40am
Guys. these pictures are great--thanks again.
There is a fuzzy photo of PT 38 in the photo section of my website that shows that same depth-charge setup. I believe that it was a field-modification, made for a single charge. I also believe at least one Elco 80-footer had this setup installed too--basing that on a photo I saw at PT Boats HQ years ago--wished I had scanned it...memory's too fuzzy these days.
Those twin .50 mounts were manufactured by Colt (according to a statement in Norman Friedman's "Small Combatants") as a replacement for the Dewandre mounts. Apparently there were two problems that surfaced way early in the PT program with the Dewandre turrets--their hydraulic mechanisms (which were too slow) and the small ammo boxes (it was said the early ones only carried 27 rounds per gun, enough for one burst.) The PT officers wanted a better gunnery system, and the Colt mounts were the interim result until the Bell turrets we are all familiar with were introduced. The Colt mounts were installed mostly in the Squadron Two 77-footers that were at the New York Navy Yard fitting out between September-November 1941, but as Wayne pointed out, PT's 30 and 42 of Squadron One also had them fitted. Ihave been looking for technical info on this mounting system for years, but so far nothing (save these excellent pictures) has turned up.
Gene K.
Posted By: comcardiv1 | Posted on: Mar 22, 2008 - 7:33pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
Wayne;
That photo is of PT 48, taken October 8, 1943. I recieved this same photo from Ken. It is a photo in a series of four or five(of which I have four) that I know of. The other boats sailing next to her in this series which you don't see in this photo are PT 59(JFK) as a Gunboat and PT 171(LT. Arthur Berndtson) from RON 10. Ken told me he took these photos from a PB4Y-1 out of Henderson Field. Probably VB 104. Anyway Ken told me they took aerial these photos to familiarize local pilots with the look of PT Boats underway. They had a number of "friendly fire" incidents between PT's and our aircraft (ie: PT 164, 166, and 168, attacked by Army B-25's on 20 July 1943 in Ferguson Passage, 30 September 1943 PT 126(Lt Craig Smith) was damaged by F4U-1 piloted by 1st Lt Robert Alexander USMC VMF -214 BLACKSHEEP in another tragic "friendly fire" incident, off Ropa Point, Kolombangara Island. PT 116 and Huck Wood in PT 124 were also on this mission.), and this was supposed to hopefully put an end to all of this. I also have heard that pilots were "invited" to go on familiarization rides on the PT's.
Take care,
TED
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Mar 22, 2008 - 8:50pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
Ted,
Can you send me a scan of the four photos you have?
Thanx,
Gene K.
Posted By: comcardiv1 | Posted on: Mar 22, 2008 - 10:16pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
Thanks Gene,
Excellent! Now I know that Colt made the replacement twin 50 mounts for the 77 footers.
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/ColtPTMounts.jpg[/image]
Wayne Traxel
Posted By: Wayne Traxel | Posted on: Mar 23, 2008 - 12:15am
Total Posts: 248 | Joined: Oct 11, 2006 - 5:40am
Ted, can you scan the four photos you mentioned to this website?
I'd love to see a photo of PT 59 underway as a gunboat that Dick could enlarge!
Thanks again to all you guys for these historic and fascinating photos and the enlargements of same.
Posted By: Drew Cook | Posted on: Mar 23, 2008 - 11:04am
Total Posts: 1306 | Joined: Oct 19, 2006 - 10:44am
Drew;
If Dick can send me his e-mail via my personal email. I will send them to him for posting.
Take care,
TED
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Mar 23, 2008 - 6:22pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
Ted . . .
It's webmaster@ptboats.org
Dick . . .
Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Mar 23, 2008 - 9:27pm
Total Posts: 1417 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm
Wayne . . .
I took your 5"x7" Photo and scanned it at various setting, including 1000 dpi @1600 percent. It was at the point that continuous tone photograph became extremely grainy. Almost to the point of being useless. As you can see in the photos below, it is still to hard to definitively decide if the boat is 40, 46, and 48. It will have to be left to individual interpretation and opinion. Evidently the original photo was shot at a great distance and the photo itself doesn't contain the image data.
Well it was fun trying, I tried many techniques, but just couldn't pull the image out - to bad the technology that TV's CSI programs use isn't really available or even exist. The two photos below were created using different methods. The final posting size was change to 72 dpi (standard internet resolution) at 1200 pixels per inch wide.
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/PT-40-46-48.jpg[/image]
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/PT-48orPT46.jpg[/image]
Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Mar 27, 2008 - 9:40am
Total Posts: 1417 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm
Can't be 40. This one has the V shaped charthouse front, which started with 45.
Al Ross
Posted By: alross2 | Posted on: Mar 27, 2008 - 12:38pm
Total Posts: 993 | Joined: Oct 30, 2006 - 8:19pm
Hello Dick,
Thank you for the attempt. It was worth a shot at any rate.
Al is right though, this is a later series 45-68 series boat.
My Thanks again Dick.
Wayne Traxel
Posted By: Wayne Traxel | Posted on: Mar 27, 2008 - 5:04pm
Total Posts: 248 | Joined: Oct 11, 2006 - 5:40am
Wayne . .
I found this great shot of depth charge rack discussed in earlier post under this subject. I barrowed it from the pt_king website at Geocities. Hope he doesn't mind. The site has great collection of photos and info, but because the photo are so large and so many, it doesn't take to many visits or viewings for Geocities to temporarily suspend the site because of the amount of download traffic.
Geocities only allows so much traffic before it suspends a site for an hour or two, then reopens it until the limit is reached and shuts down again. I haven't been able to find out who runs the site, there is no name or email. If anyone knows let me know.
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/pt_king_PT38-2.jpg[/image]
PT_King's site is:
[url]http://www.geocities.com/pt_king/PTboats[/url]
Dick . . . .
Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Mar 28, 2008 - 12:01am
Total Posts: 1417 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm
Dick,
That would be me--and no, I don't mind the use of the photo at all.
Gene Kirkland
Posted By: comcardiv1 | Posted on: Mar 28, 2008 - 10:54am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
Dick,
Almost forgot my e-mail address: pt_king@yahoo.com
Gene K.
Posted By: comcardiv1 | Posted on: Mar 28, 2008 - 10:56am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
Hi Gene,
Welcome, the photos on your site are great, as well as Research tips. Glad to see you didn't mind the photo theft . . .
Dick . . .
Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Mar 28, 2008 - 11:32am
Total Posts: 1417 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm
No sweat--I'm glad to contribute in any small way about the history of the boats. As far as the bandwith, I hope to transfer everything to a better website host this summer. It all depends on who has the most economical (e.g., cheap) plan. Free is good, but as the site gets bigger, I'm quickly finding what my limitations are...
Gene K.
Posted By: comcardiv1 | Posted on: Mar 28, 2008 - 2:33pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
Thank You Dick,
Now that is a good shot of 38 with the unusual depth charge set up.
I Remember Gene mentioning having this shot of PT-38 several posts back but was unable to find this shot when I went on his website.
You are correct on Gene's website, it is well written, very informative and has been on my favorites list for almost two years.
Thank you again,
Wayne Traxel
Posted By: Wayne Traxel | Posted on: Mar 28, 2008 - 4:55pm
Total Posts: 248 | Joined: Oct 11, 2006 - 5:40am
In going thru some of my PT BOAT ARTIFACTS today, I came across one of my SKEETER NEWSPAPERS from December 14, 1944. In scanning thru the photo's shown from the MTBSTC, it shows the barge off-loading one of the 77 Footers. The caption reads, Several Melvillites welcome their old boat, where she returned from her pacific Duties. The boat is is the cradle and is being loaded onto the Main Pier. The large caption on top of the photo says "PT 40 HOME AGAIN"
Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Apr 4, 2008 - 6:53am
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am
Gene
You might try using multiply.com for your new website. It's free and you can put tons of stuff on it. Or, what's so bad with photobucket? Both are primarily oriented to display of photos, but multiply has more flexibility with narrative, links, etc, even music! Might be cool to listen to the roar of Packards while viewing photo albums, if you could get a good track!
Might be worth it to experiment. Good luck!
Posted By: Ed B | Posted on: Apr 4, 2008 - 8:54am
Total Posts: 91 | Joined: Oct 26, 2006 - 5:31am