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» Forum Name: PT Boats - General
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» Topic:
Color Photos
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Hi All,
I realize that these are rare as hens' teeth, but do any of you have any?
I am going to request that I'd be allowed to upgrade my PT boat book and I've recently learned that Squadron now include color photos.
I think that color photos would definitely greatly help modelers.
You can contact me at PTConsultingNHR@aol.com.
Thank you,
Garth
You've got a question, I've got an answer.
Posted By: TGarth Connelly | Posted on: Dec 30, 2007 - 1:37pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
T. Garth,
I'd sure loan you any if I had, but I don't.
I think a lot of us are waiting with baited breath for Ted Walther to return from overseas, and possibly make the color photos he has of PT 61 available for us to view...
Other wise, I found three government color photos of PTs 332 and 333 "Underway off New York, 20 August 1943" on the internet.
They're photos # 80-G-K-3911 (PT 332) and # 80-G-K-3913 and # 80-G-K-3914 (PT 333). Can't remember what the actual source I grabbed 'em from was...
Good luck in your search, your PT book(s) are neat...
Posted By: Drew Cook | Posted on: Dec 30, 2007 - 6:57pm
Total Posts: 1306 | Joined: Oct 19, 2006 - 10:44am
Oh, yes I know of those two color shots you have mentioned. They're on the Naval Historical Center's website, right? Thank you, I will bear that in mind.
Ted has color shots of the 61 boat? Are they of her in service or are they post-war?
Garth
You've got a question, I've got an answer.
Posted By: TGarth Connelly | Posted on: Dec 31, 2007 - 7:42am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
Ted has mentioned before on this message board he has access to several color photos of PT 61 during the war, tied up next to an unknown 80' Elco that he believes may be the 109.
I think Ted has mentioned he believes the color photos of the 61 may have been taken in the Russells or at Rendova, possibly at the same time as the one on page 89 of Robert Ballard's book "Collision With History - The Search for John F. Kennedy's PT 109" (which is captioned as "A view taken from PT 109...").
The 61 was the 77' Elco tied up to port of the 109 in those famous "JFK in the cockpit" photos we've all seen for years, pretty much proven by that photo of the 61 in Ballard's book, which was almost certainly taken from the 109's foredeck.
That photo should be interesting for fans of the 109, as it shows the 109's port depth charge VERY close ahead of the port forward torpedo tube, not way up forward along the toe rails as usually sketched/drawn/modeled.
Posted By: Drew Cook | Posted on: Dec 31, 2007 - 6:42pm
Total Posts: 1306 | Joined: Oct 19, 2006 - 10:44am
T Garth,
Did you ever contact Don Brown to see about using his color photos of his Dad's boat, 493?
Do you need his e-mail?
Ed
Posted By: ducati650 | Posted on: Jan 1, 2008 - 4:18am
Total Posts: 450 | Joined: Feb 19, 2007 - 10:01am
Hi Drew,
I always thought that the 77 footer in those shots was the 59?
Ducati, I lost his email, can you email me it please?
Garth
You've got a question, I've got an answer.
Posted By: TGarth Connelly | Posted on: Jan 1, 2008 - 8:13am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
T,
Check mail.
Ed
Posted By: ducati650 | Posted on: Jan 1, 2008 - 12:01pm
Total Posts: 450 | Joined: Feb 19, 2007 - 10:01am
HI HAPPY NEW YEAR
I AM ON AOL .I TYPED INTO UK SERVICE AND CLICKED ON IMAGES AND ENTERRED PT BOAT PHOTOS.CAME UP WITH MANY OF THEM.YOU MIGHT LIKE TO SEARCH THRU THEM AND HOPEFULLY COME UP WITH A COLOR PHOTO? WORTH TRYING
EARL PT 108 RON 5
earl richmond
Posted By: EARL RICHMOND | Posted on: Jan 1, 2008 - 12:23pm
Total Posts: 319 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 1:50pm
I have 16 color pix of PT 150 and 7 more of the base at Ormoc. I'll try and send some to you as time permits, but I'm really busy with several projects and it may take awhile.
Posted By: DD | Posted on: Jan 2, 2008 - 12:11am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
Back in 1984 I was doing a model of PT-48 and contacted the former skipper, Ken Prescott, who was also skipper of PT-61 and an avid photographer. Ken sent color slides showing the color of PT-61 and indicated that when he took over command of 48 he used the same paint formula used on 61 to repaint
his next boat consisting of 2 parts Navy Blue, 10 parts Grey.
Took color slides to a photo processing place and had these made up + another set for Ken in appreciation of the loan of the slides. Ken eventually donated the color slides to PT boats Inc.
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/KenattheWheelPT-61.jpg[/image]
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/EngineeringDeptPT-61.jpg[/image]
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/COKenPrescott.jpg[/image]
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Chiefandstudentgunner.jpg[/image]
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/PT-61CheifTorpedoman.jpg[/image]
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/PT-61Prescottphotos.jpg[/image]
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/PT-61crewJuly1943.jpg[/image]
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/PT-61Cockpit.jpg[/image]
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/PT-61shower.jpg[/image]
Wayne Traxel
Posted By: Wayne Traxel | Posted on: Jan 2, 2008 - 8:31pm
Total Posts: 248 | Joined: Oct 11, 2006 - 5:40am
Hi Guys;
Drew is right that photo of 61 alongside of 109 was taken, at Searlesville, Russel Islands( I believe during May 1943) at the same time as my color photos. For some reason i can't view Wayne's photos but since Wayne did his research with Ken Prescott, and i have been in contact with Ken constantly since 1994, the same photos Wayne posted here probably are the same photos I have since Ken sent me the same color slides, and I sent them back to him after having them duplicated.
Take care all of you
TED
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Jan 3, 2008 - 4:02pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
Wayne:
Thanks so much for sharing these wonderful color photographs. I can't wait to hae them made up. They answer not only questions about the boats colors, but the clothing worn by those who served on the boats. So many models are made with white numbers, but this shows the boat as having black numbers on the chart house. You can tell how the colors of the clothing have faded and changed after many washings in salt water. Notice the dark tans of those on deck. These answer many questions and I think seeing them is very exciting for sure. Thanks again Wayne for sharing them.........
Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Jan 3, 2008 - 4:47pm
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am
Thanks for posting those photos, Wayne. They are fascinating, particularly for what they show color-wise.
Interesting to note that while the 61 is clearly gray, the depth charges/cradles, ventilators, smoke generator, ammo box, torpedo tube (and the charthouse?) on the 77' Elco to port of her are clearly green. The gold-colored torpedo warhead on the boat to starboard in the 61 crew photo is interesting, too.
And although you can't really see much of her, maybe that 80' Elco to starboard of the 61 (in that shot from the port side front corner of the 61's charthouse) is the 109. Even the little you can see of that boat shows an interesting detail - the canvas splash shield on the port twin-.50 turret appears to go behind (inside) one of the gun stop rail uprights, instead of over it, as usually seen.
Thanks again.
-- Drew
Posted By: Drew Cook | Posted on: Jan 3, 2008 - 6:44pm
Total Posts: 1306 | Joined: Oct 19, 2006 - 10:44am
Great stuff, Wayne. My thanks also.
Will
Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Jan 3, 2008 - 6:50pm
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm
These are some great photos! Great observation Drew about the canvas cover. It clearly is on the inside of the detention rails. The other thing I noticed is that there are paint cans everywhere on the 80' Elco and the green 77 footer next to the 61. Were they in the process of painting their boats green?
Does anyone have any thoughts about the tube covers? They look like they are brass? I noticed that the same color is on the ignitor as well. It also looks similar to the ends of the depth charges. I'm assuming this is paint? Even the wing nuts and inspection plates are brass or whatever natural metal that is.
I took a look at the photo of 109 under way because the canvas around the after .50 would be some pretty good evidence since that is an unusual arrangement. Unfortuantely I can't tell for sure but there is a shadow that gives a hint that the rail may be on the exterior. I wonder how they secured it that way.
Are there any other photos? These are just priceless.
Thanks for posting!
Dave
David Waples
Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Jan 3, 2008 - 7:52pm
Total Posts: 1679 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm
Hi Again guys;
I have read all your posts. The boat to starboard is the 109. I have determined this through research , mainly CDR Jack Searles (MTB RON 3(2) CO) personal log a copy of which he has sent me. He used this to write Tales of Tulagi. Also Gene Kirkland has come to the same conclusions as I have, it is not "it might be 109", it is 109! You ask how do I know? because through all the PT logbooks Gene has copied, and CDR Searles log that I have, we have determined that PT 109 is the only 80' Elco that was operational in the Russells during May 1943. The other RON 2 80'ers were either sunk, transferred, or damaged and being repaired at Tulagi.
I also believe that the other 77'ELCO in the photos is Ken's later command PT 48, which LT.jg John ILES was the skipper at the time of the photos. As skipper of PT 48, it was he who towed JFK and PT 109 back to Searlesville the night the depth charge went through the deck in heavy seas. During this night LT. Al Cluster was the patrol officer and he was aboard PT 48.
Yes 61 did have black numbers, so did PT 59 when Ens. David Levy was Skipper of her, during the tokyo express days and just afterwards. Levy and Jack Searles crew from 60, took 59 out on patrols on alternating nights(after 60 was run aground and damaged extensively).
Take care,
TED
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Jan 3, 2008 - 11:16pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
Oh I almost forgot Frank; I also have photos of PT 38(Bob Searles) and PT 39(Len Nikoloric/Joe Atkinson) at Tulagi Late 1942-early 1943 and they both have black numbers on the charthouse. As you will see on Gene's website, most of the RON 2 and 3(2) boats had single numbers in Panama. It seems they sort of kept the thing going a little bit, by painting low visability black numbers when heading to Tulagi.
David: The canvas spray shields were lashed to the gun tub railings with 1/4 inch- 1/2 inch line. They had grommets all the way around the top of the canvas and in certain places on the bottom.
Hope this helps,
TED
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Jan 3, 2008 - 11:31pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
Thanks for the information Ted. Odd that the canvas was hung on the interior of the rails. That may be the only time I've seen that done.
I've listened to a lot of opinions about paint color for the 109 boat over the years. Most of the information I got from Al Ross, Snyder & Short. I experimented a lot with the paint colors but the one that seems to come closest to the 109 in this photo is about 4-5 parts of the WEM Tropical Green and 2 parts black. Substituting dark gray for black may work just as well. There's something very distinctive about that color that is picked up in the Tropical Green paint The boat next to the 61 also looks very similar to that color but a little lighter. I have some chips of 5NG and their is something not quite right about that color. Maybe John Snyder from WEM will jump in and explain the difference after looking at the photos.
The other thing that is striking to me are the covers of the torpedo tubes. They look like they are natural brass. This is replicated on the ends of the depth charges. I sent these photos off to a few different people to get opinions. Does anyone know what the covers were made of? Are they in fact brass? Were they coated with something to protect the metal from the elements? This to me was maybe the biggest surprise from the photos.
Thanks again guys.
Dave
David Waples
Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Jan 4, 2008 - 5:01am
Total Posts: 1679 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm
Dave,
I'm pretty sure the brass-colored (or "gold," as I called them in a previous post) objects in the torpedo tube we're talking about isn't a cover, but is the actual torpedo itself - that is, the warhead of the torpedo, showing inside the uncovered tube. I'm speaking specifically about the one seen just over the sailor with the mop's hand in Wayne's photo of the crew in front of the 61's charthouse.
Notice the way the "brass" object is INSIDE the circumference of the tube - if it was the tube cover, it wouldn't look this way. The cover would, well, cover the warhead and the edge of the tube, and be somewhat flush with the rest of the tube. Also, the covers had two securing bolts at either side of their tops. The boats in the forward areas are usually seen with the small triangular metal plate-and-cables "positive lock" device to secure the fish inside the tubes.
Good photos of the tube covers (page 72, bottom) and the positive lock device (page 73, top) can be seen in Frank D. Johnson's book "United States PT-Boats of World War II In Action."
Furthermore, what reason would there have been to paint the tube covers brass or gold? I would think they'd mostly have been painted the same color as the rest of the tube(s).
Posted By: Drew Cook | Posted on: Jan 4, 2008 - 11:56am
Total Posts: 1306 | Joined: Oct 19, 2006 - 10:44am
Just had the photo's made up into 5x7 pictures and they are just great. You can clearly see many things when having them blown up. I really enjoy seeing the worn out areas of the boat, which makes for important research when doing a boat. The blue-jeans that the guys have on really have taken a beating in this heat, not to mention the boots they are wearing. You can clearly see the type of green color used on the boats when viewing the zdepth charges and Ventilators of the other boat. The 61 sports an interesting grey color, made from exposure to the Sun, Humidity, Salt Water and everyday use from having the crew climb all over her.
For those interested in doing a Diorama, you can clearly see the type trees and vegatation on those small inlet water ways. Just a great Historical find. Hope we can get more of these fantastic photo's. Does the Navy Archives have color pictures of the boats?
Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Jan 4, 2008 - 12:26pm
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am
Ted -
Thank you for the clarafication about what boat's next to the 109. Can you contact me offsite?
Garth
You've got a question, I've got an answer.
Posted By: TGarth Connelly | Posted on: Jan 4, 2008 - 3:32pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
Hi Drew,
I really think those are covers. The Mark VIII sits much further back in the tube. As an example look at the tube on page 80 of Frank's book. The tube doesn't have the cover on it but is instead covered with canvas and the torpedo does not pertrude out the end of the tube. Also look at the 61 boat. It too has a cover that look to be a little longer than the ones seen on 80' boats. It looks like it is brass with a nice patena forming on it. The front end of the tubes on the 80' boat look like they were either just painted or just cleaned. But they are very bright looking and they seem to match the plates on the ends of the depth charges.
If you go back and look at Frank's book again some tubes have covers that are held in place with knobs and others are held in place with the method you described which is the triangular plate and wire. Others don't seem to have anything. Perhaps one of our vets can explain how they were held in place where we don't see the knobs and plates.
The triangular "positive lock" Frank describes is that piece mounted on the deck and matched at the bottom of the tube. It is locked into place when retracted and then when extended. I'm not sure what holds it in place but there is a hole in both pieces so it's probably a bolt or pin of some sort. I defer to our vets on this point as well. A nice photo of the tube in the locked out position is in Frank's book on page 103.
Also look at some of the early 103 class boats like the 107 in Frank's book. The ends of the tubes are often covered with canvas. I wonder what that's about.
Here's something else pretty cool. While you have Frank's book out look at PT-61 on page 87. Notice that it has a loop antena on the starboard side of the cabin and a ships bell is located under the spot light. Both are gone as well as the mast in this later color photo.
This is just great stuff. I'm hoping we can get some feedback from some of the vets to confirm what we're looking at.
Dave
David Waples
Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Jan 4, 2008 - 10:02pm
Total Posts: 1679 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm
Dave,
I stand corrected about my mention of the small triangular plate-and-cables torpedo-restraining gizmo as a "positive lock" device.
I misspoke, because the positive-lock device is clearly the deck-mounted plate with the chain-attached pin that was stuck through the corresponding hole in the plate under the torpedo tube, to lock it when the tubes were cranked into firing position. My mistake!
Despite your argument to the contrary, I still respectfully disagree on the brass-colored "cover" vs. torpedo-warhead question.
I still think the brass-colored object in the aft port tube on the boat (the 109?) tied up to starboard of the 61 in the crew-in-front-of-the-charthouse photo is the actual torpedo warhead. It appears the warhead-ends of the torpedo tubes on the 61 in that photo are darker in color than the lighter "brass" color of the other boat's torpedo, whatever that implies (were they in the shade?).
I also don't think whatever color the depth charge fuse plates are in the photos has anything to do with the torpedoes (or tube covers).
Posted By: Drew Cook | Posted on: Jan 5, 2008 - 9:24am
Total Posts: 1306 | Joined: Oct 19, 2006 - 10:44am
Hey Drew,
No worries. That's why we share ideas here.
It's okay we don't agree on what I think are tube covers. I was looking at Frank Johnson's book and there is a photo of the tubes used to ship torpedos. It has a cover that looks a lot like the cover on the 61 boat. I'm convinced that it's a natural metal such as brass and and has a nice petena from being exposed. I'm thinking that this is the same case on the 109 boat. What else would they have made these out of? I've also noticed from looking at photos of the 105 boat they covered the ends with canvas. Why? What are they protecting? Also some covers seem to be half domes and others seem to be shallower and covered with canvas. Sometimes there is nothing but canvas covering the end. That's why I really want to hear from some vets about these covers. I'm sure there are some stories to tell and information to share.
I'm going to start a new post! :-)
Dave
David Waples
Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Jan 5, 2008 - 3:43pm
Total Posts: 1679 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm
By the way, the new photo is hysterical. Thanks for adding.
Dave
David Waples
Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Jan 5, 2008 - 3:47pm
Total Posts: 1679 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm
David;
Yes the loop antenna was removed by the time the photos were taken. Also note the broken plexiglass wind shield. Ken stated he did not remember how this happened. but Ken in 61 was on patrol one night out of Searlesville, along with Bill Kriener in 60 I believe, close to midnight they were strafed and bombed by Rufe float planes which flew up there wake and Kriener was wounded. Ken still has nigthmares about this night. I believe this might have happened that night, but it is just a weak guess.
The Bell of 61 according to Joe Kernal's daughter was in the families backyard when she was growing up. He used it to call the kids in for dinner. She did not know if it was really the actual bell from the boat, but she said her Dad always said it was. I later asked Ken about this and he could not imagine how Joe got it off the boat and shipped it home, but, he agreed with me, Iam sure bigger things than a PT Boats Bell made it back home. My Dad, who was a LTjg for example, brought back an M-1 carbine from the ETO in the center of his duffle bag. He also brought back an Arisaka rifle with bayonet and an Officers Samuri sword from the PTO.
Talk to you guys later, I got to hit the Rack!
Take care
TED
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Jan 6, 2008 - 5:30pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
Hey Drew and David,
I was reading all the posts and I agree with the idea that the objects in question on the front of the torpedo tubes are the torpedo warhead itself, which was made from Phosphor Bronze (not brass). Same goes for the depth charge depth setting dials. They would not be painted if the fish stays inside the tube. The photo looks like a bare bronze warhead to me and not some type of cover. I think those canvas covers seen in Johnsons book were to keep salt spray from mixing with the grease inside the tube. I obtained this info from a USN Ordnance Tech manual from 1944. Just in case you didn't know the warheads were made of bronze. Jerry PT658 Oregon
Jerry Gilmartin
Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Jan 7, 2008 - 12:40am
Total Posts: 1473 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm
Hi Jerry,
Thanks for the information. What made me think that they were covers is that in the case of the 61 boat they don't look like they are inside a tube but rather something pressed on the front. It has such a strong petena on it too.
The photos I have of PT-107 have the half dome covers that seem to be held in place by knobs. These look like they were modified later to have a triangular piece of metal held in place by three wires. This method allows only one release to be made to free the tube covers. Then there are a bunch that use the canvas to cover the tube.
Maybe I'll just model it with the 109 with knobs or canvas. I'll have to stew on that one for a while.
Dave
David Waples
Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Jan 7, 2008 - 5:17am
Total Posts: 1679 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm
the second photo posted earlier on this subject shows the top deck at the stern of two boats. The depth charges on the boat on the right side of the picture show a green paint that is well lighted . It may be a good one to match.
Posted By: QM | Posted on: Jan 10, 2008 - 6:12pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
HI GUYS I AM HOME!!!
I WAS JUST LOOKING AT THE PHOTO OF PT 61(LOOK AT PHOTO #6), THE GUY STANDING IN THE BACKROUND ON THE PT 109, SURE LOOKS A HELL OF ALOT LIKE TM2/C ANDREW JACKSON KIRKSEY! COMPARE THIS PHOTO TO PHOTO OF PT 109 CREW(USE GENE'S WEBSITE IF YOU DON'T HAVE THE PHOTO), KIRKSEY IS THE THIRD FROM LEFT IN THE FRONT ROW.
IF YOU ENLARGE THE PHOTO YOU CAN SEE THE LIKENESS IN HIS FACIAL STRUCTURE.
TAKE CARE
TED
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Feb 13, 2008 - 2:37pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
Welcome back home from wherever you were!
I honestly can't tell myself. In the color photo he looks much younger and not smiling. The black & white makes him look older and he's got a big smile on his face.
That's the color I'm shooting for on my boat though. I'm glad these photos came along when they did.
Dave
David Waples
Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Feb 14, 2008 - 4:10am
Total Posts: 1679 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm
David;
Thanks it is great to be back home!
I have a few other people looking at the photos and I am waiting for there replies. If you look closely, the man has two paint cans in front of him, I believe these have what is called "aircraft" grease in them and he is working on cleaning the .50's.
Take care
TED
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Feb 14, 2008 - 5:25am
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
Hi Ted,
Great observation. I notice that the breach is open on the aft .50's on the 80' Elco so it stands to reason he's working on them. I noticed in the picture of the gent with the oversized helmet (I'm sure there's a proper name for it) that it looked like the guy in the background was painting using similar buckets. But who knows what he's really doing back there. It's funny how you see different things every time you look at these photos. Thanks for the input! If you have access to any other information we'd love to hear it.
Take care
Dave
David Waples
Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Feb 14, 2008 - 5:36am
Total Posts: 1679 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm
David;
In the photo of the guy with the oversized helmet; that is a helmet that wa mostly used on ships. this hemet was known as the Mark 2 andwas large enough to allow the wearer to have sound powered phones which allowed the crew to talk to each other. Most PT's did not utilize this equiptment, but some PT boats used them also, especially the later 77' ELCO gunboats such as of PT 59, 60 and 61, for use in talking to the 40mm gun crews. In the photo of JFK bringing PT 59 into Lambu Lambu cove, you can see the 40mm crew is using the S/P phone helmet.
Take care,
TED
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Feb 14, 2008 - 5:50am
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am