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» Forum Category: PT Boats of WWII
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» Forum Name: PT Boats - General
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» Topic: Elco 80' model 1/48 scale
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Since this is becoming a modeler's haven, I thought I'd show off my other model - an 80' Elco (sorry about the shadows). Like my Thunderbolt, this was also made by Don Rosencrantz. It's numbered #25 of 48. I once had a list of the 48 recipients, don't know if he made more of these as well. Unlike my Thunderbolt, this one never saw an attic, and has always been encased. The only problem was, many years ago, juvenile hands got a hold of this toy and ... If that sounds like a confession, it is. Fortunately, Rosencrantz restored it in the 60's to its original glory. It's 20 long, and all metal.

[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/80PTModel002.jpg[/image]

[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/80PTModel001.jpg[/image]

Posted By: Ed B | Posted on: Dec 3, 2007 - 5:57pm
Total Posts: 91 | Joined: Oct 26, 2006 - 5:31am



Ed:

This is the same as my Rosencrantz Elco 80 Footer in the previous Thunderbolt Post. When you think of the massive time and workmanship that went into these all metal models, it is no wonder Rosencrantz had time to perform his other duties at Elco. For the longest time, I thought these were made of wood until I was lucky enough to have one donated. When I inspected it, I was shocked to learn they were machined metal pieces from the guns, to the Radar. I have many original Elco Office memo's and documents and I recall one memo from Rosencranz sent to Mr.Irwin Chase in regards to a a model for the New York Yacht Club. In the memo he tell chase that the model is half done and will require 1500 hours more time, including about 200 hours in the xperimenal Shop, with the remander to be completed at home. Total cost in 1945 was $2,600.00 figured at $2.00 per hour.



Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Dec 3, 2007 - 6:17pm
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am



Frank, I thought yours was a larger scale than my 1/48, camera angle I guess. The estimate for the NYYC model, 3000 hours at completion, seems staggering, though I'm unfamiliar (and surely underestimate) the effort involved. That must have been one fine model. You have to believe something like that still exists somewhere today, hopefully on display. Now that would be a real showpiece for your exhibit!

Posted By: Ed B | Posted on: Dec 4, 2007 - 4:33am
Total Posts: 91 | Joined: Oct 26, 2006 - 5:31am



Nice looking model. It reminds me of the Elco sold by Varney way back when.....

Will

Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Dec 4, 2007 - 7:00am
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm



You know Will, it does seem as though some of the models were used as templates for other ones. The Varney Kit in my Exhibit certainly does resemble the Rosencrantz model, and I believe that one of the Lindberg kits was patterned after the varney model because the parts for the Lindberg will fit the Varney model. Ed, you are correct in that several of the models made by Rosencantz went to many different Venues during the War.

I know that Bulkeley's PT 41 made by Rosencrantz is with the Bulkeley Family. Rosencrantz had 2 daughters and I was lucky enough to talk with one of them, who said that they do not have one PT BOAT MODEL made by their Father. Rosencrantz made many other models as well after his time with Elco, including many Sailing Ships, which I believe are in the Smithsonian Museum. Over the years I have come across 2 of Rosencrant's PT BOAT MODELS in 1/48th scale. Both were for sale and both went out of my price range............



Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Dec 4, 2007 - 7:58am
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am



(Frank, don't read any further...)

Sorry to bring up PT 109 again, but this model is identical to one JFK had in the White House while he was President. It was kept in a glass case in a bookcase in the wall, to the right side (as you look at it) of the President's desk. Of course, this is obviously a model of a late-war 80' Elco and not a 103-class boat, but it's identical to the one JFK had in the Oval Office.

There's a photo of JFK using the model to point to his position in the cockpit at the wheel when the boat was rammed, in Robert J. Donovan's book "PT 109 - John F. Kennedy in World War II."




Posted By: Drew Cook | Posted on: Dec 4, 2007 - 4:27pm
Total Posts: 1306 | Joined: Oct 19, 2006 - 10:44am



Ed,

I found the original Elco Office Memo from Don Rosencrantz to Irwin Chase about finishing the model for the NYYC. I thought you would appreciate seeing the total cost for this wonderful model. I wonder of the NYYC still has one in their possesion.

[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/FrankAndruss/Rosecrantz-01.jpg[/image]




Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Dec 4, 2007 - 10:37pm
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am



Wow! At 1/24 scale, this model would be over 3' long, truly impressive. And while I'm still amazed by the number of manhours dedicated to Elco's modeling efforts, there of course wasn't much else going on at Elco at that time. I seem to recall the memo listing recipients of my size model was also post-war, dated sometime in 1948 when Elco was preparing to close the doors.

Posted By: Ed B | Posted on: Dec 5, 2007 - 4:56am
Total Posts: 91 | Joined: Oct 26, 2006 - 5:31am



In re-reading the Elco memo, I notice it's not specific at all about what the model is of. It may well have been a model of an Elco yacht, not a PT, hence the interest from NYYC. The fact that the memo originated from the Naval Division rather than the Yacht Division might only have denoted Rosencrantz's employment status. If it really was a PT model, go find it for your exhibit!

Posted By: Ed B | Posted on: Dec 5, 2007 - 5:09am
Total Posts: 91 | Joined: Oct 26, 2006 - 5:31am



According to my Employee List from Elco, Rosencrantz served in the Hull Department. He was there during the War and continued on in that Department until Elco closed in 1949. Actually, Elco did some pretty good business in 1946 and had increased sales to an almost satisfactory level in 1947. Too bad that it was too late, as the overhead of such a large assembly plant and Elco's refusal to cut down on maerials cost's for making the boats, did them in. I doubt Elco would have been making such models if they were in such financial troubles, and who knows, maybe Rosencrantz never got the go ahead to finish this product for the NYYC. You are correct in that maybe it was a Crusiser or some other Elco design he was building, but being as it was a MEMO from the Naval Division side of the business, I would have to guess it was a PT BOAT. At that size, it certainly would be something to obtain a model of that magnatude for my Exhibit. Maybe I will check it out.............



Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Dec 6, 2007 - 12:42am
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am



Frank,

You have a Rosencrantz built model?

Garth

You've got a question, I've got an answer.

Posted By: TGarth Connelly | Posted on: Dec 15, 2007 - 1:55pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered



Hi Frank,
I enjoyed looking at your model by Don Rosencrantz of Elco. I remember seeing a similar model also in 1/48 scale made by Comet Metal Product. I
read that there were 5 such models commissioned by Elco in 1945. My question is why did Elco farmed out the job while Don was working for them?
You notice all these boats were done in detail except the turrets. There
were no fire limit railings for one thing and the machine guns are kind of
amateurishly made. Any light you can shed on this will be greatly
appreciated.
Victor

Victor K Chun

Posted By: victorkchun | Posted on: Jan 14, 2009 - 9:52pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered



The most amazing thing about the models Victor was that they were made using metal (the Rosencrantz ones a least) All he parts are machine turned. For many years, until I got one, I thought they were made from wood. Elco did farm out some of the models, because Rosencrantz could not keep up with the orders. Elco made many to pass out as gifts to dignitaries and others. Rosencrantz did not only do the boats, but he made other models for Elco, including the Thunderbolt sysytem, and cruisers and yachts........



Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Jan 15, 2009 - 12:03am
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am



Hi Frank,
I remember seeing a picture you posted somewhere showing PT 41
model being presented to Lt. John D Bulkeley by Henry Sutphen at
Elco Plant. I cannot find it in the message board. Can you help?
Victor

Victor K Chun

Posted By: victorkchun | Posted on: Mar 4, 2009 - 5:50pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered



Victor

I have that original photo in my Elco Files. I will post it for you as soon as I get a chance.



Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Mar 4, 2009 - 8:25pm
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am




Victor, Here is photo of Lt. John D Bulkeley being presented with a model of PT 41 by Henry Sutphen at the ELCO Plant.

Frank


[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/FrankAndruss/Bulkeley.jpg[/image]



Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Mar 5, 2009 - 8:17am
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am



Does anyone know what has happened to that PT-41 model in that photo? Is that guy Rosencrantz?



Posted By: TGConnelly | Posted on: Mar 5, 2009 - 11:56am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered



Hi Garth,
I read a book written about Bulkeleys wife Alice by their oldest daughter Joan B Stade, called "Twelve Handkerchiefs" and in that book is a photo of the model boat in their House. I am pretty sure that the Bulkeley Family still owns the model. Jerry PT 658

Jerry Gilmartin

Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Mar 5, 2009 - 12:57pm
Total Posts: 1469 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm



Garth

The model is still owned by the family according to Peter Bulkeley, the Admirals son. No one in the photo is Mr. Rosencrantz. The man with the white hair is Henry R. Sutphen, Executive Vice President of Elco. Someone sent me a picture last year of the boat in his house and darn if I can find it.



Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Mar 5, 2009 - 1:34pm
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am



Frank/Jerry,

Really? WOW!

But .... if they still have that one, then why did Peter have Charlie Jones build them four PT-41 models back in '95?

Garth



Posted By: TGConnelly | Posted on: Mar 5, 2009 - 1:54pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered



Hello Victor,

If you go back to page 36 in past messages Frank has some black and white pictures of Rosencrantz built PT-10, 41 and a row of the 80 footer models.

Also within this post 29Navy has a site showing John Bulkeleys, Rosencrantz's 41 model in color.

[url]http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2948253910087453692wNtkLy[/url]

Hope this helps.

Wayne Traxel

Posted By: Wayne Traxel | Posted on: Mar 5, 2009 - 2:00pm
Total Posts: 248 | Joined: Oct 11, 2006 - 5:40am



Garth - I bet it was for the next generation of family. Since everyone can't have that one, multiple models can be had instead.

My family experienced a little "jockeying" for items as my grandfather got older and then passed. I can only imagine what it would have been like if Pop had resuced Mac!

Grandson of James J Stanton
RON 15 PT 209 and RON 23 PT 243
Check out: www.pistolpackinmama.net


Posted By: newsnerd99 | Posted on: Mar 5, 2009 - 8:30pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered



That must be it then.



Posted By: TGConnelly | Posted on: Mar 6, 2009 - 6:28am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered