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» Forum Name: PT Boats - General
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» Topic: The real Todd City
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Greetings all,

I don't know how many of you have a subscription to Naval History magazine (published by the Naval Institute), but I have written an article that is published in the latest edition. [Just came out.]

The topic: The Real Story of Todd City. We had this discussion on here a few years ago about who was Todd City, the PT Base at Rendova, really named after. I've thought about this topic for many years and our latest discussion pushed me to write this, get it published and set the record straight. And what better avenue than Naval History.

Spoiler alert: it wasn't Leon.

I am thrilled and excited to get published in this magazine. I'll see about posting or linking the article here without violating any copyright rules.



Charlie

Posted By: 29navy | Posted on: Oct 23, 2020 - 11:21am
Total Posts: 598 | Joined: Dec 28, 2006 - 3:02pm



Great, Charlie...

Will

Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Oct 23, 2020 - 1:57pm
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm



Well done Charlie! I hope they let you post it here, I would really enjoy reading it. [:-cheers-:]



Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Oct 24, 2020 - 2:06am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am



Okay, going to try this. A link to the article:

[url]https://www.usni.org/magazines/naval-history-magazine/2020/december/true-story-todd-city?fbclid=IwAR3-hAz8jFQmKcYQApfYK_IEVYKv0NpcHUZ-wBB8uuPkVku7OCDz5TuVRk0[/url]


Charlie

Posted By: 29navy | Posted on: Nov 23, 2020 - 1:51pm
Total Posts: 598 | Joined: Dec 28, 2006 - 3:02pm



Great job Charlie and a piece of history solved.



Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Nov 23, 2020 - 7:06pm
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am



Nice Charlie, thanks. I love that painting.



Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Nov 24, 2020 - 9:18am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am



Couldn't read the entire article, it was blocked by a subscription square.



Posted By: Drew Cook | Posted on: Nov 25, 2020 - 6:59am
Total Posts: 1306 | Joined: Oct 19, 2006 - 10:44am



Yes, I know. Strange. I pulled the link from a facebook page that showed the whole article, Then later back at the same link, it was blocked with the subscriber block.

Sorry.

Charlie

Posted By: 29navy | Posted on: Nov 25, 2020 - 8:24am
Total Posts: 598 | Joined: Dec 28, 2006 - 3:02pm



I look forward to reading the article w/o the pay block someday. Online there is a photo from the article showing some PT pods. What is really interesting (for me), is the how far down that stretch of harbor these boats were located. I always reckoned they all were further out in the deep(er) water of the harbor. Using GE compared to the online photo- one can see almost exactly (within reason) where these particular boats might have been located.

I believe I found a mooring base which consisted of a circle of seemly weighted large size multi-gallon fuel drums that appeared to have once been serving a purpose -this while scuba diving . That is on some of the dives we found the PT boat dorade vent.

Just like the beaching on Lumbari of the 164/117 the direction of the flags shows one some additional probability of which motu they are grounded on by (usual) prevailing winds. In the article photo one can see some of the wind effect on those PT boats also, however due to their proximity to the pass this can also be of some tidal effect.

I crossed into Rendova Harbor in 2008/2009 and 2012, using the reef water area to the north of Lumbari, aboard either a small dive launch or much smaller motor canoe. Having been through reefs and pass's all throughout the South Pacific in my youth I was left wondering why the PT boats could not also use this crossing area(?) -- now, I suspect they may have been able to use that same area- as there would be sufficient depth and just a few coral heads to run around/dodge at high(er) water.

The painting photo is neat also. Notice the wires strung across from tree to tree. Iin the islands you can still find many, many, coconut trees from the WW-II war era. In the 1980's on Guadalcanal you can see shrapnel/bomb damage on some. In other island areas where there was a US base, or presence, you can see the holes in the trunks where the Americans would insert support(s) for the wires ---this still existed on my last visits. I also was shown one tree where a US service member carved his name- this was shown to me by locals.

Also, interesting to note from the painting, is of the tree trunks & how some have white stripes, or markings, this is probably for vehicle transit/direction reasons and low light situations, and also for people walking...the blackness at night in the Solomons has a particular ominousness/dark that is hard to fully describe.

Some items like danforth anchors, ships anchors, the mooring setup etc., I may have mentioned in old posts & someday I reckon they will be "discovered" by some overseas seagoing research group, one whom I already told areas where they should to look, sooooo someday hopefully they let you all know of *their discoveries* and give you some photos to look at lol...

On Lumbari Island in 1981, there were two US jeeps and a US amphibious jeep body which still had USA painted on the side, but they are no longer there now.

In 2009 on a dive break/interval I was shown that you can sit in the sand (on Lumbari) and reach your hands down into the sand and come up with dime/nickel size steamer clams- we gathered some & one local got: 117 clams and the other 164 clams...ok, just kidding about the division of the spoils, but not finding the clams.

Post covid/wuhan coronavirus panic, some of you researching etc., better get out to the islands there-- people are picking over, scrapping, gathering for later sell on E-bay, or moving stuff all around for local personal "museums" etc., and pretty soon there will be nothing left to see, or you will pay a kastom fee & get to see an old bullet and a beer bottle.

Good Luck- sorry about the spelling, bit tired from some riding and the reply box is a bit small. Hope you all had a good Thanksgiving considering everything.



Posted By: Shaneo2 | Posted on: Nov 28, 2020 - 6:37pm
Total Posts: 147 | Joined: Apr 17, 2008 - 10:19pm



Thank you Shaneo, you've had some awesome adventures in life! I remember the Elco vent you found, very cool and still in good shape.



Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Nov 29, 2020 - 5:00am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am



Thanks Jeff,

The dorade vent was last seen by me in 2012. It was sitting outside the dive shop next to Agnes Lodge as sort of a "nautical prop display"- much like a garden gnome in a garden. The shop had yet to explain what it was for the visiting tourist.

The 2009 scuba dive I organized (and paid for)- came across many things- including the debris area for the one PT boat in shallow water- lots of bits and pieces, wood parts deep in sand, monel and SS screws in the wood, items from the galley, .45 rounds (live), metal bits, face boards for gauges, insulated wire, some wooden frames, some of these items I saw previously in 2008 also- while visiting with Aussie Paul. What might be of some interest is this shallow debris area is apparently still being "discovered"-even in 2019.

I also found out why this debris stuff was all in bits and pieces just by chance and probably mentioned here b-4.

After the war a ex-pat went over and blew the PT boat remains apart with explosives etc. "salvaging". I told this to another research group in an email, so when/if they *discover* that little factoid, people here might become re-informed to it again...lol.

Incidentally, it was Brian Diva the Dive Master (in rashy in pic) who noticed just the rim (of the vent) barely sticking out of the sand and pointed it out to me. I gently moved my hand back and forth exposing what it was.The dive shop gathered it for display. I like to credit all Solomon locals in the islands- as sometimes people going out there for history -do not- and the locals are the reason for many of my successful finds.

Last I seen Brian still works at thedive shop, so if visiting Munda on New Georgia ask him the story of the vent find.

I have sent some of my PT/aircraft wreck info and photos to Justin over at Pacific Wrecks and hope to encourage him to post some of my info about Rendova Harbor on there too, so hopefully someday you guys can see more. Justin has been a "huge" help with aircraft remains I came across and posted some of them there @ the PW site.

I am always glad to see many here are still working to keep PT history alive and look forward to the article on Todd City.

Cheers-



Posted By: Shaneo2 | Posted on: Nov 29, 2020 - 12:27pm
Total Posts: 147 | Joined: Apr 17, 2008 - 10:19pm



Shaneo,

You say "online there is a photo of ...PT pods" in Rendova harbor.

Where online?



Posted By: Drew Cook | Posted on: Nov 29, 2020 - 1:15pm
Total Posts: 1306 | Joined: Oct 19, 2006 - 10:44am



Hi Drew,

I just googled "Todd City" and went over to images section- there it shows a BW photo from 6 days ago along with the painting in the article.


Further note: I wish I had this photo when I visited the Solomons. I am not formerly trained in photo work, nor have acedemic papers on the wall etc, but some things some of you all may help with and I find interesting myself:

LP = Left PT Pod (Port)
RP = Right PT Pod (Starboard)
Motu = small barrier reef island in background

On the RP one can see the water discoloration line in the background and further on exposed reef. Also on the RP the boat closest to the camera almost appears to have a different paint scheme- or maybe this is just optics?

In between the two pods looks to be another vessel(?) If so is the slight blurring exhaust fumes, or possible debris, or water on the camera lens?

The first thing I noted (not being of PT boat study myself), is the motu in the background. I believe I went ashore there in 2009 briefly to talk with an old man- he lived on the island with two others. From him I learned Rendova Harbor also had PBY's during the war. Anyway, I did not wander around the small island- now from seeing the photo I wish I had. Also, I think from the Rendova Harbor chart this island had the benchmark, or survey mark point.

Notice when you enlarge the photo and the motu--see the straight line shadow that goes left to right (start at the LP to help reference) across the background light through the trees - this tells me there may have been some facility on this motu. Then moving further right on the motu a more obscured straight line exists I'm almost thinking Quonset hut, or other type of building?

Anyway, one photo-- and if I would've had it- I would have changed about my whole areas of search to some extent..





Posted By: Shaneo2 | Posted on: Nov 29, 2020 - 1:29pm
Total Posts: 147 | Joined: Apr 17, 2008 - 10:19pm



Interesting. I got out my notebook from 2009 Solomons trip and page on/about the scuba dive- and then I compared the photo angles from the BW photo and my GE lat/long of what I suspected may have been an mooring (?)

This BW photo is possibly taken from the area of my GPS note: "big Moor"---from which I did the GPS hit on with air bag to the surface, so "possibly" another pod location?

Again, great thanks to the author!





Posted By: Shaneo2 | Posted on: Nov 29, 2020 - 4:07pm
Total Posts: 147 | Joined: Apr 17, 2008 - 10:19pm



Thanks again Shaneo, sorry to hear that the cowl vent is MIA... I think the Elco cowls are exceptionally attractive with their smooth curve blends and the total lack of a lollipop on a stick look. It took me many frustrating hours trying to duplicate it in 3D until I found a rather complicated way to do it. Ah yes simple minds simple pleasures.

Is this the photo you mentioned finding?:

jFjfs.jpg

PT 117 after the Todd City attack:

jFpFH.jpg

PT 164 with a LCM on the left, she really took a hit:

jFQ74.jpg




Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Dec 1, 2020 - 6:58am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am



Thanks, Jeff (and Shaneo)!

I've never seen that great photo before of the 80' Elcos moored together in Rendova harbor. Its pretty interesting, with two boats having the SCR-517A "beehive" radars, and none showing the original "A"-frame mast, with the possible exception of one maybe peeking up at the extreme right on an unseen boat.

I can't help but think one of those 80' Elcos moored together may be the famous/infamous 109, and those radar-equipped boats were two of the four section leaders the night of August 1-2 1943.

Is that speck of land behind them Lumbari, supposedly?

Thanks again. I can't get enough of photos of PTs "in the area." in almost 60 years of reading about and casually researching WWII PT boats, I've never seen that great photo.



Posted By: Drew Cook | Posted on: Dec 1, 2020 - 10:43am
Total Posts: 1306 | Joined: Oct 19, 2006 - 10:44am



Jeff,

Thanks for the photos, yes that is the one (photo) I saw online. In regards to the vessel next to the beached 164- I reckon that is a LCVP. I have located what I suspect to be one (sunken) in the Solomons also.





Posted By: Shaneo2 | Posted on: Dec 1, 2020 - 12:10pm
Total Posts: 147 | Joined: Apr 17, 2008 - 10:19pm



Drew,

LP = Left PT Pod (Port)
RP = Right PT Pod (Starboard)
Motu = small barrier reef island in background (I will call OBS Motu)

The motu in there near background is probably this barrier island located on GE:

08 23 970 S 157 18 640 E

From the copy of the British chart c1893 of Rendova Harbor this is where the OBS spot was noted, same with the US chart from WW-II. The British chart gives some soundings across the reef in 1893, the US chart just shows "foul ground" and a solid reef- between Lumbari island and OBS Motu there.

So again I suspect in daylight one could actually run a PT boat across this area of "foul ground". This would be much more convenient in a quick exit and to get to Kiru Kiru where I believe they kept fuel (?), from other readings.

In the past I noted LCVP craft bringing what appeared to be sand/coral fill when constructing the new PT base from photo's. I suspect (thinking out loud) that they simply went over to the area between Bau and Pau island and dredged in the inlet there. There is a large square cement block over there the locals showed me- that may be a mooring?

That being said maybe they dredged the foul ground between Lumbari and OBS Motu also.

Notice the RP PT's and look "beyond" the bows of the vessels and exposed reef etc. See that vague outline of the island in the distance? That would be across the channel and over on the New Georgia side.

I found a photo I took of our airbags we sent to the surface on the dive- using the "eyeball" method, as mentioned one bag seems to be where the Pod photo is taken "from", and the other (which I don't think I noted for some reason), almost looks to be in the area of that mooring line extending sharply to the right direction on the far right boat from the LP.

I was looking for boat debris and items on the dive so what I thought were maybe makeshift mooring weights would have only gotten bare attention then..

On can use simple eyeball and GE ruler triangulation against the photo tell one almost exactly where these boats are located in the harbor.

One must remember that the bottom sand is always shifting, so what some people see one year, may not be there 5-10 years later, as it may be covered in sand.



Posted By: Shaneo2 | Posted on: Dec 1, 2020 - 12:53pm
Total Posts: 147 | Joined: Apr 17, 2008 - 10:19pm



I used the picture of the anchored boats with my article. I scanned it from the National Archives.

Here's a something I scanned from the PT Boat HQ archives showing the layout of Lumbari.

jFZyM.jpg

To refresh everyone's memory, here is something that was posted here in a earlier conversation about Rendova Harbor.

jFhDJ.jpg

Charlie

Posted By: 29navy | Posted on: Dec 1, 2020 - 1:26pm
Total Posts: 598 | Joined: Dec 28, 2006 - 3:02pm



Charlie,

Great mud map! The channel area between Lumbari and Kuru Kuru is the deep water Western entrance. I don't recall of any US Destroyer loss in the harbor, so that is somewhat perplexing?

Also, in the US 1944 chart of Rendova Harbor there is no note of sunken vessels in that area. From the mud map in the direction of "Munda".. is the way to the photo PT pods posted here on the topic.

In your overhead shot of Renedova Harbor the: "unnamed island" is what I call "OBS Motu" in my text/replies previously here on the topic.

Now, as it is well known to locals even when I was there in 2008, and possibly mentioned to me in 1981. What you have drawn as the: "Mitsubishi bomber" is also the general area of the boat debris field. I suspect the the two are co-mingled - first maybe done in war to just move junk around from active use areas- then latter (post war) whoever salvaged items probably consolidated the debris for scraping purpose's- which would make sense.

In going through that debris area in 2008/2009, it seemed odd that some of the aluminum bits seemed to be from a aircraft- not what I would assume to be on a PT boat. In 2009 some of the locals I was with also showed me a small bit of what they said was human bone seen among the U/W debris while we were looking. I asked if they were sure, and all were certain it was.

I talked to Ronnie Day several times on the phone while he was still alive, some was about the PT's, but also the B-24 wreck inland- really nice gentleman RIP. His book is on Amazon.



Posted By: Shaneo2 | Posted on: Dec 1, 2020 - 2:04pm
Total Posts: 147 | Joined: Apr 17, 2008 - 10:19pm



I know. The only Destroyer I found that sunk in that area was the USS Gwin (DD-433) but that was on the rother side of Munda and Kolumbangara. So I don't know what this it.

Charlie

Posted By: 29navy | Posted on: Dec 1, 2020 - 4:28pm
Total Posts: 598 | Joined: Dec 28, 2006 - 3:02pm



Charlie,

Also to note: is the Kula Gulf loss of the USS Strong DD-467- interesting to read about the torpedo run that hit it.


Sometimes the stories get a bit mixed up in details...there was the grounding of PT's across the channel on New Georgia side and then from that actual time of the mud map was the "USS Zane" which briefly stuck and sat on reef/shoals-- again over/across on the New Georgia side of the channel.

The US did run some large vessels into RH apparently. I cannot recall the name as I found it by chance, but a seaplane tender was in there for awhile. The LCI's and LST's made easy work of the harbor transits it seemed.

The biggest harbor passage appears to be at the south (SW Passage) and by 1944 there were ATON's all the way down there that the US put in. The reasoning to have a DD go inside the harbor in July of 1943 escapes me due to lack of facilities/maneuver room/proper charting etc., however I was not there..

Any DD sinking would be well documented also. Just another mystery I reckon.



Posted By: Shaneo2 | Posted on: Dec 1, 2020 - 6:37pm
Total Posts: 147 | Joined: Apr 17, 2008 - 10:19pm



Quoting from my post on page #2:

"From the copy of the British chart c1893 of Rendova Harbor this is where the OBS spot was noted, same with the US chart from WW-II. The British chart gives some soundings across the reef in 1893, the US chart just shows "foul ground" and a solid reef- between Lumbari island and OBS Motu there.

So again I suspect in daylight one could actually run a PT boat across this area of "foul ground". This would be much more convenient in a quick exit and to get to Kiru Kiru where I believe they kept fuel (?), from other readings.

In the past I noted LCVP craft bringing what appeared to be sand/coral fill when constructing the new PT base from photo's. I suspect (thinking out loud) that they simply went over to the area between Bau and Pau island and dredged in the inlet there. There is a large square cement block over there the locals showed me- that may be a mooring?

That being said maybe they dredged the foul ground between Lumbari and OBS Motu also."

-end

I took a screen shot from GE and looked at my charts and the 1893 British chart mentions of sounding ~ 1.5 fathoms-- the US wartime chart shows reef and foul ground. I think the PT boats could have transited this channel also.

jFDA3.jpg



Posted By: Shaneo2 | Posted on: Dec 31, 2020 - 10:18pm
Total Posts: 147 | Joined: Apr 17, 2008 - 10:19pm



One thing I forgot to mention in the previous posts here in regards to the scuba dives.

I had not been scuba diving for some time so I was up ~ 40-60' feet level, but some of the locals with me were in better shape and had better air consumption, so they were near the seabed.

There was one object that I did not investigate on the seabed that they saw & that was partially embedded in the sand. It was a long object at least 3(x) length of the locals height right next to it -and maybe ~ 2-3' feet wide...??

From my vantage above them I would liken it to a I-beam they use in construction (to gauge in ones mind length and width from my detail above), but it was not an I beam.

I did not drop down to look closer, however in hindsight I should have. If, in the "highly unlikely" event I ever get back out there- I would go look for this object again because I was heading and close to those PT pods in the photos.

On another dive I found long bits of SS wire that was coral encrusted and maybe the circumference of ones index finger lets say. I think the metal was exposed and the coral knocked off because of tidal/storm damage, otherwise it would not be noticed. This was on the inside harbor reef wall to the north of Lumbaria island.

Off fLumbaria we also found brown beer bottles in the sand. It was a beer name that started with an "S" (name escapes me right now), and from somewhere back east USA. I did look it up years ago, but forgot he details as I write this. Have to look around again. These were WW-II era bottles

I hope they can dive survey Rendova Harbor oneday before it is ruined by tourism- it would be amazing what would turn up. Other locals told me that some years back that a plane was found with two skeletons in it on the harbor bottom somewhere in the harbor.

This has still not been noted by other divers to my knowledge. I did pass that tidbit to JPAC (then called) some years ago, but one cannot act on a rumors of a plane. I would bet it is probably Japanese.

For the interest of some I posted a photo of two soda bottles I found near Henderson Field on Guadalcanal in 1981. There was Yank war stuff everywhere then. The Coke bottle has: "PORTLAND ORE." on the bottom, the other is a Pepsi bottle from 1945 I believe.

I was told with bottles to check the mold seams of the glass ones from that era as the seams are usually imperfect compared to today's bottles.

jFIAg.jpg





Posted By: Shaneo2 | Posted on: Jan 16, 2021 - 5:48pm
Total Posts: 147 | Joined: Apr 17, 2008 - 10:19pm



Looking at this site just surfing online:

[url]https://evanskaren.wordpress.com/2015/11/11/a-fathers-service-pt-161/[/url]

Going down the list one can see his (the writers) photo of Lt. Kennedy with Lt. McElroy

- the caption mentions the 161 is in the background-

I believe the little island there is the same motu I pointed out in this post showing PTs in Rendova Harbor & the higher island behind it is Roviana Island across the straight/channel on the New Georgia side.

If Lt Kennedy is on the PT-161 for the photo with Lt McElroy. That may be where the 161 was moored that day right next to the little motu.

Also, looking at some photos from Dive Munda I saw a photo from their Facebook just a couple years ago with the dorade vent that I identified on a scuba dive after being spotted in the sand by Brian Daga (between Lumbari and the little motu to the north). It now appears to be located in the dive shop. So some history is preserved and (hopefully) not MIA.





Posted By: Shaneo2 | Posted on: Jul 23, 2022 - 6:51pm
Total Posts: 147 | Joined: Apr 17, 2008 - 10:19pm



The vent in the Dive Munda shop apparently in the last couple years... From the Dive Munda Facebook page.

pwYUo.jpg



Posted By: Shaneo2 | Posted on: Jul 23, 2022 - 6:54pm
Total Posts: 147 | Joined: Apr 17, 2008 - 10:19pm



Cool Shaneo, I'm glad to see that the Elco cowl you found is still around. I think they are the most graceful looking on the water. Unfortunately model kits usually have the "bowl on a stick" look to them...



Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Jul 24, 2022 - 12:41pm
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am



Shaneo;
Was it Schaffer Beer?



Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Jul 26, 2022 - 7:45am
Total Posts: 3058 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am



Shaneo;
Was it Schaefer Beer?



Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Jul 26, 2022 - 7:47am
Total Posts: 3058 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am



Hi Ted,

After a decade(+) my memory is bit. What I do recall is that they were in good condition like much I recovered from the Lumbari area, this is probably due to the "shifting sands" preventing growth.

- The bottles were of the stubby shape short and rotund -sort of like me-...lol.
- The name of the beer brand was written on the glass and where from...
- Where from? Somehow Pennsylvania keeps coming up in my mind?
- WWII era--- yes, like almost everything you would find in that area of the harbor, bottle seams/mold were imperfect of that era
- The color of the bottle(s) was brown
- if there was a second letter after the first being "S" maybe a "T"? The lettering on the bottle was very good, however my exact memory is not. Maybe I wrote it down, but don't recall seeing it
- It was not: local beer, nor Aussie/Kiwi. It was from America

As there was still plenty of items to find in 2008/2009 diviing there, these just got a passing glance. I do remember thinking that someone must have enjoyed a few beers many, many, years ago, and I hoped they made it back home to have a few more.



Posted By: Shaneo2 | Posted on: Jul 26, 2022 - 11:44am
Total Posts: 147 | Joined: Apr 17, 2008 - 10:19pm



pwlP6.jpg



Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Jul 26, 2022 - 2:23pm
Total Posts: 3058 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am



That might be it Ted. The "S" in a certainty, same with the Pennsylvania, so that would explain why the "T" came to mind. Pretty sure you are correct. The bottles where right off where the dock would have probably been on Lumbari.

Most likely usually covered with sand. Great work-- I do remember also the name sounded German like. The bottles were not "long neck" and had the brand and where from actually on the bottle itself.



Posted By: Shaneo2 | Posted on: Jul 26, 2022 - 2:56pm
Total Posts: 147 | Joined: Apr 17, 2008 - 10:19pm