The PT Boat Forum
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Forum Category: PT Boats of WWII
http://www.ptboatforum.com/cgi-bin/MB2/netboard.cgi?cid=101&fct=showf


Forum Name: PT Boats - General
http://www.ptboatforum.com/cgi-bin/MB2/netboard.cgi?fct=gotoforum&cid=101&fid=102


Topic: RON 5 PT 105
http://www.ptboatforum.com/cgi-bin/MB2/netboardr.cgi?cid=101&fid=102&tid=4888



Recently while doing some research for my PT 105 build I come across an article where Dick Keresey skipper of the 105 stated all the RON 5 boats were painted a shade of grey, possibly gunship grey, I know colour pics are very scarce, so does anyone have any more thought on this ? Also on the engine room companion way 103 class boats was there handles or latches on the lid ? any help ,advise would be great



Posted By: Grady | Posted on: Jan 6, 2020 - 3:39am
Total Posts: 73 | Joined: Oct 2, 2018 - 8:04am



Are you asking about the factory delivery color or in service? The 103 class boats were factory painted in Navy Gray (No. 5) hull with Dark Gray (No. 5-D). Later, Measure 13 paint scheme.



Former crew member of the Big Blue Sightseer ex-PT 486

Posted By: Gerry McGovern | Posted on: Jan 6, 2020 - 6:10am
Total Posts: 70 | Joined: Oct 7, 2016 - 1:47pm



jtSrI.jpg


Former crew member of the Big Blue Sightseer ex-PT 486

Posted By: Gerry McGovern | Posted on: Jan 6, 2020 - 6:14am
Total Posts: 70 | Joined: Oct 7, 2016 - 1:47pm



jtzsn.jpg

Former crew member of the Big Blue Sightseer ex-PT 486

Posted By: Gerry McGovern | Posted on: Jan 6, 2020 - 6:17am
Total Posts: 70 | Joined: Oct 7, 2016 - 1:47pm



thanks Gerry, looking for in theater paint scheme, I know there were allot of variations as you use what ever you can get your hands on at the time. There's no mention of colour in Dick Kersey's book, so I don't know the time frame he said the boats were Grey. anyway good advise thanks



Posted By: Grady | Posted on: Jan 6, 2020 - 9:03am
Total Posts: 73 | Joined: Oct 2, 2018 - 8:04am



Grady,
Some boats were repainted in overall ocean grey 5-0 which was darker than the factory greys. Below the waterline they retained the copperoyd coating.
The engine room hatch had two latches which were locked by turning them 90 degrees similar to a door handle.

Try here http://pt103.com

Stu






Posted By: Stuart Hurley | Posted on: Jan 6, 2020 - 1:46pm
Total Posts: 241 | Joined: Mar 19, 2013 - 3:32am



Here are some details of the hatchway showing the handle placement, from Dick Washichek's collection. He has generously decided to put them up for free download, see the "Documents" link. The first shows where the holes should be drilled in the forward cover for the handles:

j9p6f.jpg

j9jVa.jpg




Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Jan 6, 2020 - 3:38pm
Total Posts: 1928 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am



Thanks Stu, The paint is a real Grey area, no pun intended the hatch hinges and latch's was something I could not find
Jeff D has been a great help during my build, The outstanding information on his site has been the main stay of my work. I kind of feel guilty emailing him all the time with simply questions, however as in his last post he's always there to help Thanks Jeff




Posted By: Grady | Posted on: Jan 7, 2020 - 3:44am
Total Posts: 73 | Joined: Oct 2, 2018 - 8:04am



Grady,
The greys are certainly variable depending on the time frame. The paints issued at the time were not always pre-mixed and utilised a tinting colour which could be added to produce the various shades. Personally i think 5-D is too dark tonally looking at period photos, and i think 5-0 is more likely. 5-D was reckoned to be too contrasty . The use of 5-0 on small craft was known as measure 14 IIRC

Best Regards,
Stu.






Posted By: Stuart Hurley | Posted on: Jan 7, 2020 - 4:50am
Total Posts: 241 | Joined: Mar 19, 2013 - 3:32am



lol thanks Grady it's always nice to be appreciated!

I forgot about the hinges. The covers were attached with a full length 1 1/4 - 1 1/2 piano hinge with a rubber strip inderneath that appears to stick out a little past the ends of the hinge. Photo (cropped) of PT 127's Motor Mac Hank Amority courtesy of [url]http://pt127.org/[/url]. It looks like they added an air scoop to the hatchway's forward cover:

j9oCY.jpg




Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Jan 7, 2020 - 8:18am
Total Posts: 1928 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am



Oops, the scoop was added to the rear cover not the front...



Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Jan 7, 2020 - 3:02pm
Total Posts: 1928 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am



I was fortunate enough to have a discussion with Mr. Keresey about the 105 boat. He told me it was "Battleship Gray". I think that's buried somewhere in the forum. According to the reference I have from Dr. Ross the color should be Measure 1, overall 5D. This is how she was painted in Panama and it carried over into theatre. Under his command it was not green. Later photos show her in camouflage. That's the boat I'm going to finish one of these days!
Dave

David Waples

Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Jan 10, 2020 - 2:41pm
Total Posts: 1625 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm



Looks like they had a U-shaped pipe/bar that fit in a clip on the underside of the aft engine room hatch door to hold it open.

Wonder if all the early 80' Elcos with the original small, two-door engine room hatches had this hold-open device?

I've always thought of the 105 under Mr. Keresey as being 5D Gray.

Posted By: Drew Cook | Posted on: Jan 11, 2020 - 8:07am
Total Posts: 1267 | Joined: Oct 19, 2006 - 10:44am



Thanks Dave & Drew
Now I can check off the color search , each step more research, more pictures , more plans to follow. Starting to learn my way around the boat.



Posted By: Grady | Posted on: Jan 11, 2020 - 10:55am
Total Posts: 73 | Joined: Oct 2, 2018 - 8:04am



According to the drawing they all had it Drew. It's actually the forward door, the aft one was traded in for an air scoop. I also see the attachments for the short-lived canvas air scoop on the sides of the base.




Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Jan 12, 2020 - 4:21am
Total Posts: 1928 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am



I found this shot of the 114 Drew, you can see the holdopen bar and it looks like the 127 wasn't the only boat to add a scoop to the small early hatchway:

j91uZ.jpg




Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Jan 12, 2020 - 3:54pm
Total Posts: 1928 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am



Great Pic Jeff, looks like they are being scrapped , sad So moving on Does anyone have pictures/drawings of 103 class boats 20 mm ammunition box’s I have a few, but would like have a few more for reference.
Thanks Grady




Posted By: Grady | Posted on: Jan 13, 2020 - 4:02am
Total Posts: 73 | Joined: Oct 2, 2018 - 8:04am



Yep sad indeed. I sent you some partly legible drawings, hope they help.



Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Jan 13, 2020 - 12:08pm
Total Posts: 1928 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am



The site has been a godsent for me stepping into the world of the PTs, however with a background in building rigged ships, I limited my posts to asking questions & research for my first PT build, I have been reluctant to post any photos of my build on the site, mainly because there’s a lot of PT experts here . I’m learning more about the boats so I guessed it was time I'm further along than this, however to pics of the deck keep in mind I’m not a professional builder & very little experience with Pts

jAWRo.jpg

jAqhI.jpg



Posted By: Grady | Posted on: Jan 19, 2020 - 11:08am
Total Posts: 73 | Joined: Oct 2, 2018 - 8:04am



Nice Grady, it's going be a shame to paint that deck! What kind of wood is that?




Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Jan 20, 2020 - 2:40am
Total Posts: 1928 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am



Thanks Jeff, its mahogany, same as the hull, except the hull has about 6 coats of primer on it. I have been working on an outside the box plan for the deck. This is the outcome of the plans you sent

jAyHn.jpg

jABXZ.jpg

jANGa.jpg

jAJ5f.jpg



Posted By: Grady | Posted on: Jan 20, 2020 - 3:08am
Total Posts: 73 | Joined: Oct 2, 2018 - 8:04am



Hey cool, the same wood the real ones were planked with! [:-cheers-:]



Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Jan 20, 2020 - 11:38am
Total Posts: 1928 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am



I know the old saying “there are no stupid questions” so I will ask a simple one Does the 20 mm ready ammo lockers open inboard or out board on the early 103 class boats ?



Posted By: Grady | Posted on: Jan 29, 2020 - 4:37am
Total Posts: 73 | Joined: Oct 2, 2018 - 8:04am



The latches were inboard, hinges outboard on the 109. Note the 20mm signal horn hiding between the boxes:

jAljg.jpg




Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Jan 29, 2020 - 10:36am
Total Posts: 1928 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am



Are the heater units on the Elco 80’s all the same type? And does anyone if some of the boats removed them once in the Pacific theatre ?.



Posted By: Grady | Posted on: Feb 1, 2020 - 5:25am
Total Posts: 73 | Joined: Oct 2, 2018 - 8:04am



Unless destined for a cold climate, most likely the boat carried a very similar looking rubber boat stowage locker which was usually removed early on. It was located in the same place as the heater. See these 2 threads:
[url]http://www.ptboatforum.com/cgi-bin/MB2/netboardr.cgi?fid=102&cid=101&tid=3993&pg=23&sc=20&x=0[/url]
[url]http://www.ptboatforum.com/cgi-bin/MB2/netboardr.cgi?fid=102&cid=101&tid=3110&st=20&nd=30&pg=36&sc=20[/url]

Here's the drawing for it:

jAsNy.jpg




Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Feb 1, 2020 - 11:57am
Total Posts: 1928 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am



Thanks Jeff
I went back and looked at the links, about same size and shape as a heater unit, but no visible heating duct. Also I go along with if we don’t need it lose it theory, weight & space are critical. So if not a heater or raft locker, did anything go there??




Posted By: Grady | Posted on: Feb 2, 2020 - 2:31am
Total Posts: 73 | Joined: Oct 2, 2018 - 8:04am



Exactly, one thing PT crews weren't was pack rats! You'd have to check photos of specific boats but I've noticed nothing there for the most part except for the occasional ammo locker.

One thing that I found interesting on the early boats with heaters, the 103 - 162, was that they used the throttle rod housing that ran along the starboard coaming as a duct for heated air:

jAxd8.jpg




Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Feb 2, 2020 - 3:12am
Total Posts: 1928 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am



Thanks Jeff I think I will go without the heater unit on the 105, Ok I see what your talking about that’s the duct flange cover on the throttle rod housing Aft end of the day room right. Would you listen to me I’m becoming one of you?



Posted By: Grady | Posted on: Feb 2, 2020 - 4:07am
Total Posts: 73 | Joined: Oct 2, 2018 - 8:04am



lol you have fallen into the whirlpool and are being sucked down. Welcome!



Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Feb 2, 2020 - 7:23am
Total Posts: 1928 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am



Grady,
105 certainly had the raft box in photos of her refueling en-route to the Galapagos Is. from Panama.

Best Regards,
Stu.






Posted By: Stuart Hurley | Posted on: Feb 4, 2020 - 12:37am
Total Posts: 241 | Joined: Mar 19, 2013 - 3:32am



Here is the photo Stu mentioned along with a few others. The series of photos taken July 1942, probably at Melville, shows her with depth charges in place of the aft torpedo tubes:

jAULk.jpg

jA0bo.jpg

jA8an.jpg

jAkTA.jpg

jATWO.jpg

jAI8i.jpg

jA2KI.jpg





Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Feb 4, 2020 - 6:59am
Total Posts: 1928 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am



Thanks Jeff & Stu.
A couple of the pics I did not have. Ok I’m looking at the box right behind the day cabin aft side correct ?




Posted By: Grady | Posted on: Feb 4, 2020 - 7:35am
Total Posts: 73 | Joined: Oct 2, 2018 - 8:04am



The first couple of pictures of being loaded on a ship are not at Melville. Melville didn't look like that. I believe it's the Brooklyn Navy Yard (technically the New York Navy Yard in Brooklyn). That's what Dirk Keresey says in his book PT 105 as they shipped out to Panama.


Charlie

Posted By: 29navy | Posted on: Feb 4, 2020 - 7:43am
Total Posts: 512 | Joined: Dec 28, 2006 - 3:02pm



Grady,
Right behind the day cabin starboard side, in place of the heater unit. In thr refuelling photo the rear corner is visible.

Best Regards,
Stu.






Posted By: Stuart Hurley | Posted on: Feb 4, 2020 - 2:23pm
Total Posts: 241 | Joined: Mar 19, 2013 - 3:32am



Thanks Charlie.

I believe it is Mike, don't know what the odds and ends are around the lockers of both boats are though. Here's a closeup:

jASpZ.jpg

Here's the locker (PT 117) compared to the heater (PT 141):

jAzNa.jpg





Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Feb 4, 2020 - 2:37pm
Total Posts: 1928 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am



Here's a detail that's often overlooked. The forward most starboard side window on the Day Cabin is the same frame as that on the forward side of the Chart House. This window is the non opening type because it is located behind the ladder and hatch. I've yet to see a modeling company get that right.

When I spoke with Mr. Keresey about his boat he told me that the life raft was often on top of the Chart House or they threw it on the Day Cabin. They wanted it out of the way.

Dave

David Waples

Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Feb 4, 2020 - 2:45pm
Total Posts: 1625 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm



Thanks guys , this is really good info. Dave dead light frame with no rain guards on the forward starboard window of the day cabin,. totally missed it. Looks like I will be going back and correcting.
also same type on forward window correct ?



Posted By: Grady | Posted on: Feb 5, 2020 - 3:02am
Total Posts: 73 | Joined: Oct 2, 2018 - 8:04am



Grady,
No, there was a rain strip on the forward window and drain to port. Aft window, rain strip and drain to stbd. Welcome to the can of worms.

Best Regards,
Stu.






Posted By: Stuart Hurley | Posted on: Feb 5, 2020 - 3:12am
Total Posts: 241 | Joined: Mar 19, 2013 - 3:32am




Thanks guys , this is really good info. Dave dead light frame with no rain guards on the forward starboard window of the day cabin,. totally missed it. Looks like I will be going back and correcting.
also same type on forward window correct ?



No. The forward and aft windows on the Day Cabin are the same as all the others. The only exception is the one behind the ladder which you can see in the attached photo. Note that the black out panel behind the ladder slides up and down instead of hinging in.

[image]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49491761338_39bee2646f_o.jpg[/image]

David Waples

Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Feb 5, 2020 - 5:56am
Total Posts: 1625 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm



Thanks all, The new guy is a little slow at picking up the finer points, however you don't get it right if you don't ask
Grady



Posted By: Grady | Posted on: Feb 5, 2020 - 8:31am
Total Posts: 73 | Joined: Oct 2, 2018 - 8:04am



One other detail about the day cabin windows, the stbd fwd fixed window was mounted against the outside while the others were inset quite a bit:

jLEgT.jpg




Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Feb 6, 2020 - 8:31am
Total Posts: 1928 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am



Jeff, my first try at making the 20mm horn, using the pics you sent, close I think, maybe a little short on the support post, still at this scale the simple is patience test thoughts if I should rework ?
Grady

jLcro.jpg

jLelI.jpg



Posted By: Grady | Posted on: Feb 13, 2020 - 2:38am
Total Posts: 73 | Joined: Oct 2, 2018 - 8:04am



Sheesh that thing is tiny! Looks good to me Mike.



Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Feb 13, 2020 - 3:55am
Total Posts: 1928 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am



Thanks Jeff, passing muster is important, you once told me what AMS was, know I got it thanks for adding to the "Fun " of details matter



Posted By: Grady | Posted on: Feb 13, 2020 - 4:15am
Total Posts: 73 | Joined: Oct 2, 2018 - 8:04am



Grady;
Charlie posted:
"The first couple of pictures of being loaded on a ship are not at Melville. Melville didn't look like that. I believe it's the Brooklyn Navy Yard (technically the New York Navy Yard in Brooklyn). That's what Dirk Keresey says in his book PT 105 as they shipped out to Panama.


Charlie"

PT 105 and the rest of RON 5 ran down from the Brooklyn Navy Yard to Norfolk Virginia. They are being loaded at what is called Norfolk Naval Shipyard in Portsmounth Virginia. The ship is at pier 5. I worked there for 3 years.

Take care,
TED



Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Feb 13, 2020 - 5:30pm
Total Posts: 2906 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am



The mast frame for the 103 class boat, looking for a good way to put, this from the pics and drawing for Jeff D’s site it’s not round, yet it’s not square looking either , if that makes sense. Can anyone help the shape of the frame parts. ?



Posted By: Grady | Posted on: Feb 15, 2020 - 8:35am
Total Posts: 73 | Joined: Oct 2, 2018 - 8:04am



I have the cross sections on the mast drawing, they're hard to notice but they are to the left of the side view. The legs are an airfoil shape and they taper towards the top. Here's one to the left of the base socket:

jLaoS.jpg




Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Feb 15, 2020 - 8:53am
Total Posts: 1928 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am



Thanks Jeff, When you look hard at it, I see what you mean. My best guess for getting the material would be Aero or streamline tubing .

Great , once I get the close size so I can order the tube, Let the mast building began. .



Posted By: Grady | Posted on: Feb 15, 2020 - 9:46am
Total Posts: 73 | Joined: Oct 2, 2018 - 8:04am



Fit checking parts on the engine house cover, still some clean up to do, smooth out some of the wood, more primer, but getting there. Did I miss anything in the detail?



Posted By: Grady | Posted on: Feb 16, 2020 - 6:38am
Total Posts: 73 | Joined: Oct 2, 2018 - 8:04am




I guess this part would help, age is great


jLRVc.jpg

jLT63.jpg

jLT63.jpg

jLUST.jpg



Posted By: Grady | Posted on: Feb 16, 2020 - 6:41am
Total Posts: 73 | Joined: Oct 2, 2018 - 8:04am



Grady;
Why did you paint the dead light on the engine room hatch? The amount of detail you are adding, why take this short cut? I don’t really remember a photo where they painted over these, because, as Jeff has shown on his factory blueprint based 3D schematics, these all had “inside shutters “ , so light would not be seen on the outside. They had a strict no paint direction in one of the guidebooks or blueprints I read. Otherwise you are doing great.
Take care,
TED



Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Feb 16, 2020 - 8:49am
Total Posts: 2906 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am



*****FFM Duplicate message*****



Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Feb 16, 2020 - 9:39am
Total Posts: 2906 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am



Thanks Ted, what's the reason I put it out there, because I will miss or misinterpret things like this. I simply don't have the depth of knowledge about the boats. As long as things keep getting pointed out , I will do my best (skill level ) to fix them and get them right
Mike



Posted By: Grady | Posted on: Feb 16, 2020 - 10:06am
Total Posts: 73 | Joined: Oct 2, 2018 - 8:04am



👍🏻



Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Feb 16, 2020 - 12:01pm
Total Posts: 2906 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am



Ted,
Once I get the frame removed, what is the background? a frosted plastic, or a blackout shade?
& are they all this way on the engine cover Also some pictures show the side frames without bars, the Elco blueprints are hard to read, but it looks like they say only the #7 frames have bars which looks to be the hatch & the Aft frame? I just want to clarify this.
As always, your input is valued.
Mike




Posted By: Grady | Posted on: Feb 17, 2020 - 4:18am
Total Posts: 73 | Joined: Oct 2, 2018 - 8:04am



Clear plastic. here are some photos on even showing the back side of the hatch with shutter.

jLvqt.jpg
PT171 RON 10

jL0iw.jpg
PT127 RON 7 and RON 12. Early engineroom hatch with later style vent added on top.

jL2ks.jpg

jLPCH.jpg
Early series ELCO 80 at Melville. Engineroom hatch open.



Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Feb 17, 2020 - 8:52am
Total Posts: 2906 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am



Ted, Jeff D or who ever can help
Was the lights on the fair head & stern mast removed in theater??
Did the boats post the jack staff when dock side in theater?
Being a Ret Vet from one of those "other" services I really don't know
Mike



Posted By: Grady | Posted on: Feb 28, 2020 - 10:24am
Total Posts: 73 | Joined: Oct 2, 2018 - 8:04am



Grady;
For the most part, those items disappeared(ie: removed, stored below, etc), they were really not used in the Pacific.
Take care,
TED



Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Feb 28, 2020 - 3:36pm
Total Posts: 2906 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am



In addition to the the port and starboard lights, there is one on the stern flagstaff. It's just a slit for projecting white light. Here's a photo I borrowed from a post here showing the hardware.

[image]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49632761372_b58dba72ac_o.jpg[/image]

David Waples

Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Mar 7, 2020 - 4:23pm
Total Posts: 1625 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm



Thanks Dave,
I will add the light cover to the stern mast, Also about done with the engine hatch, did a compete restart. Have started to build the throttle control box , Jeff D sent the plans. again given the scale its a challenge, working on getting the right length of the 3 throttles in 1/30 is allot of trial & error. Again thanks for all the advise



Posted By: Grady | Posted on: Mar 14, 2020 - 4:05am
Total Posts: 73 | Joined: Oct 2, 2018 - 8:04am



Let's see, an 8'' wide x 6 5/8'' x 2 7/8'' tall throttle works out to about 0.267 x 0.221 x 0.096. Sheesh you'd better get some microsurgery equipment!



Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Mar 14, 2020 - 6:11am
Total Posts: 1928 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am



First my hopes & prayers go out to everyone during theses unsure times. The craft new all love seems rather secondary. One of my suppliers is from Spain which is closed for shipping, I’m still able is get deliveries from Cornwall boats for now, will stock up from them and work from back stock for the rest.
Started laying out the control panel area, the test fit went well, Made the throttle control box, Ok following the plans from Jeff D I took my shot, again being so small scale is tough to get exact overall
it’s still rough, needs some smoothing but its close, with a little rework It should fit in.
Search light, I think it came out ok, possibly the knob on the bracket needs to sized down, but I happy so far, the lens & background will go in after final paint.

Question does anyone know where I can get a Ron 5 patch??

jewGc.jpg

jeb53.jpg

jeoYT.jpg

jeC2t.jpg



Posted By: Grady | Posted on: Mar 16, 2020 - 12:13pm
Total Posts: 73 | Joined: Oct 2, 2018 - 8:04am



The only word I can think of is, WOW!



Posted By: Stearman | Posted on: Mar 17, 2020 - 2:01am
Total Posts: 49 | Joined: Nov 1, 2017 - 9:38pm



Question does anyone know where I can get a Ron 5 b2322 WW2 US Navy PT patch Patrol Motor Torpedo Boat Squadron 5
[url]https://www.ebay.com/itm/b2322-WW2-US-Navy-PT-patch-Patrol-Motor-Torpedo-Boat-Squadron-Ron-5-MTB-PB11/380661634416?hash=item58a1339570:g:rbYAAOSw3Sla1Nro:sc:USPSFirstClass!23462!US!-1[/url]



Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Mar 22, 2020 - 12:34pm
Total Posts: 2906 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am



contact PTboats inc. for a patch and help support the org. that preserves PT boat history. P.O box 38070 Germantown tn. 38183-0070 901-755-8440. all be safe and stay well. scott

Scott Campbell 2nd gen,PT 248
Ron 20


Posted By: Scott C | Posted on: Mar 22, 2020 - 1:14pm
Total Posts: 63 | Joined: Nov 20, 2019 - 4:34pm



only part of post was posted ?? patch can be had at PT boats Inc P.O. box 38070, Germantown, TN 38183-0070 901-755-8440. they help to preserve PT history. stay safe and well. scott.

Scott Campbell 2nd gen,PT 248
Ron 20


Posted By: Scott C | Posted on: Mar 22, 2020 - 1:21pm
Total Posts: 63 | Joined: Nov 20, 2019 - 4:34pm



Good point Scott👍🏻😎🇺🇸



Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Mar 22, 2020 - 7:11pm
Total Posts: 2906 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am



thank you all for the info, the build is keeping me busy during these troubled times. Like many Vets of this site we have seen hard times before, and know how to count to the folks on either side of you. Thanks to you all this fascination turned obsession is becoming a great journey.



Posted By: Grady | Posted on: Mar 23, 2020 - 3:27am
Total Posts: 73 | Joined: Oct 2, 2018 - 8:04am



I hope all are being safe.
Scratch Built the mast, took 3 weeks & 68 fabricated parts, After final paint I will add the light & cover & the power cord.

jeWRH.jpg

jeqw4.jpg



Posted By: Grady | Posted on: Mar 31, 2020 - 11:06am
Total Posts: 73 | Joined: Oct 2, 2018 - 8:04am



Made the foot rails from Mahogany, with guidance from Jeff D pt103.com I followed a cross of his drawings & Dumas patterns. Given the fragile scale here I will soak in water then heat bend them in place. Being very careful not to snap them.

jeNj7.jpg



Posted By: Grady | Posted on: Apr 3, 2020 - 11:23am
Total Posts: 73 | Joined: Oct 2, 2018 - 8:04am



Smoke generator/w hold down straps& base

Need some advise 1) the foot stand on the bridge , from Jeff D the later boats after 123 had rubber mats , what did the early 103 class boats have , if anything ?? 2) control panel gauges again I know the type from Jeff, however its sizing a color image down to 1/30 scale to print that's the problem, I got with Gene Berger how he got a great result, he said copy ,resize , print very simple, OK Genes a professional builder, and kind of Tech smart, two things I'm not. Does anyone know what I'm missing here ? I know it's got to be a simple thing, At this point I'm down to I guess I need a very simple how to lesson. Thanks Grady .

jeeNZ.jpg



Posted By: Grady | Posted on: Apr 11, 2020 - 2:47am
Total Posts: 73 | Joined: Oct 2, 2018 - 8:04am



Hope all are well
Working on the window drain scoops, fabrication almost complete. Question If I’m reading Jeff Ds plans right there is not a drain on day cabin window starboard forward ??
Advise would be great




Posted By: Grady | Posted on: May 3, 2020 - 8:38am
Total Posts: 73 | Joined: Oct 2, 2018 - 8:04am



Correct Grady, the drains were only on the windows that could be opened. The smoke gen looks good!




Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: May 4, 2020 - 4:13am
Total Posts: 1928 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am



That window is unique because there is a ladder there. Correct me if I'm wrong but it's the same window as the two on the forward side of the Chart House.
Dave

David Waples

Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: May 5, 2020 - 11:48am
Total Posts: 1625 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm



Lanyard pullies for the mast and start of cockpit rework , and my first shot at making the drains

jilrk.jpg

jissA.jpg

jiIQo.jpg



Posted By: Grady | Posted on: May 7, 2020 - 3:32am
Total Posts: 73 | Joined: Oct 2, 2018 - 8:04am



Hello all, I hope everyone is staying safe , Looking at Jeff D site ABO MK 18 drawing provided by Al Ross, allot of great plans to sort thru, is there anything else out there I can also reference for working on the tubes, starting with the pads & turntables ??



Posted By: Grady | Posted on: May 10, 2020 - 4:38am
Total Posts: 73 | Joined: Oct 2, 2018 - 8:04am



Dick has made his wonderful Elco drawing collection available for free download. You can get lost in them for months! Or years in my case. [url]http://ptboatforum.com/documents.html[/url] There are detailed drawings showing pad dimensions, angles of tubes on the boats, etc. There is a text file list by subject that will help you find the drawing you are looking for.

The turntable should be in Al's tube drawing collection.

Have fun Mike and stay well.



Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: May 10, 2020 - 5:10am
Total Posts: 1928 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am



Just wanted to take a moment to thank Dick Washichek, for allowing the use of his Elco engineer drawing. When I first decided to take a break from masted sailing ships I could never have imagined just how hooked I would become by the world of the PT boat, from the special breed of men who servered on them to beautiful decks the walked . I guess you could say the new guy is all in. Jeff D was right about the Dicks drawing, it’s like a kid at Xmas . Anyway just thought this needed to be said not only to Jeff, Ted, Dave and Dick, but to all who generously contribute there vast knowledge to the forum.
Mike




Posted By: Grady | Posted on: May 13, 2020 - 3:07am
Total Posts: 73 | Joined: Oct 2, 2018 - 8:04am



Without Dick, the knowledge of American PT boats we enjoy today would be a small fraction of what it is. For decades he has run this forum and footed the bill so we would have a stable place to call home. The drawings alone were well over a $1,000 that came right out of his pocket. My site for one of the PT types would not have been possible, at least not with the accuracy it now has thanks to his drawings. He even sent me a very expensive computer after learning of the issues I was having trying to render out my work. The list of all he has done to keep the memory of PT boats alive could go on for pages. What a guy! People like Dick make the world a better, and more knowledgeable, place. Every time I see a member like Charlie help someone looking for information on a family member with ties to PT service, I get a warm fuzzy feeling in my heart when I see how much it means to them.




Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: May 13, 2020 - 4:28am
Total Posts: 1928 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am



AMEN, BROTHER...

Will

Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: May 13, 2020 - 10:49am
Total Posts: 1920 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm



I'll chime in and add my continual thanks to Dick, our great webmaster (who has always put up with my photo-posting requests)!




Posted By: Drew Cook | Posted on: May 13, 2020 - 11:37am
Total Posts: 1267 | Joined: Oct 19, 2006 - 10:44am



Did a Paint scheme trial on this piece . according to Dave Maples conversion with Dick Keresey , first skipper of the 105 he thought she was Battleship Grey, , Al Ross had her with measure 1 overall 5D , according to the fine folks at Vallejo 5D is very close to their Black Grey . I don’t know if the picture is clear enough to tell , but this how the black grey came out

jD4zc.jpg

jDZy3.jpg



Posted By: Grady | Posted on: May 21, 2020 - 10:29am
Total Posts: 73 | Joined: Oct 2, 2018 - 8:04am



While waiting for supplies, worked on the wiring plugs for the Nav horn, port spotlight bracket. There small, hard to shape, but I think they will add to the effect, when the cables are connected, also added the mounting brackets for the cabin vents and running lights. Test fitted the reworked 20MM mount
Question on the wiring for the mast, horn, spot lights. It’s a small thing but are wires painted or were they left black??

jDc0f.jpg

jDiEj.jpg

jDD96.jpg

jDYI5.jpg

jDgZS.jpg



Posted By: Grady | Posted on: Jun 8, 2020 - 11:39am
Total Posts: 73 | Joined: Oct 2, 2018 - 8:04am



Coming right along Mike!

Good question, I have no real clue but the general rule was If it don't move, paint it. It looks like the searchlight cable (right below the kill marks) was painted on this boat:

jD1uY.jpg

Your color looks pretty close to these shots of PT 134 (top) and 107:

jLzsM.jpg

jD6Mm.jpg




Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Jun 9, 2020 - 3:36am
Total Posts: 1928 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am



Jeff great pics, they really helped, So while I'm running cables, does the spotlight cable plug into the plug on top of the Aldis locker ?
thanks
Mike



Posted By: Grady | Posted on: Jun 11, 2020 - 11:10am
Total Posts: 73 | Joined: Oct 2, 2018 - 8:04am



The one on the Aldis locker aft of the aft armor plate was for the Aldis light. The cable shown in the photo goes to the side mounted cone shaped bracket with the builtin on / off switch. Another cable ran from there to the searchlight mounted either on the port cone or aft pipe bracket:

jDM70.jpg

jDXBc.jpg




Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Jun 11, 2020 - 12:41pm
Total Posts: 1928 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am



Got it , totally missed the second plug , again Jeff so grateful for all the help and advise



Posted By: Grady | Posted on: Jun 12, 2020 - 3:02am
Total Posts: 73 | Joined: Oct 2, 2018 - 8:04am



You're very welcome Mike.



Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Jun 12, 2020 - 6:25am
Total Posts: 1928 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am



Interesting to note that the 124, in that photo, doesn't have the half-ball-like (rain guard?) device over the bottom of the antenna where it goes into the base...

Posted By: Drew Cook | Posted on: Jun 14, 2020 - 10:10am
Total Posts: 1267 | Joined: Oct 19, 2006 - 10:44am



Deck Hatch ladder, I know a ladder will not be hard to fabricate, 2 legs & some rungs, however just for the sake of comparison does anyone know what they looked like ??



Posted By: Grady | Posted on: Jun 17, 2020 - 11:05am
Total Posts: 73 | Joined: Oct 2, 2018 - 8:04am



For which hatch?



Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Jun 18, 2020 - 3:24am
Total Posts: 1928 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am



Sorry Jeff I did not know there was a difference , still a new guy you know. Just in case I want to show the hatches open , want to do three both forward, 1 Aft , also the hatch opening it has just a slight lip above the deck correct,




Posted By: Grady | Posted on: Jun 18, 2020 - 4:20am
Total Posts: 73 | Joined: Oct 2, 2018 - 8:04am



Here's what the hatch looked like both closed and open: [url]http://www.pt103.com/PT_Boat_Components_Deck_Hatch.html[/url]

I didn't know either but thought I'd narrow it down before looking into them. They are close to the same. Dick's drawing names are ELCO_Roll_5535-2_72SCAN_00151.pdf and ELCO_Roll_5535-2_72SCAN_00152.pdf if you need a better view to see the numbers or whatever:

jYOLj.jpg




Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Jun 18, 2020 - 5:04am
Total Posts: 1928 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am



Thanks Jeff, getting old I guess, I keep forgetting to give the film rolls a look



Posted By: Grady | Posted on: Jun 18, 2020 - 5:15am
Total Posts: 73 | Joined: Oct 2, 2018 - 8:04am



Made some progress in in the odds & ends areas Life ring with rope grab, added the mast light cable , the mast is aluminium & brass so it will take a few coats to cover, or I might just leave the used look, reworked the training gear cranks on the day room cabin, added the port search light cable, placed items on the engine hatch cover & gave a coat of paint, missing the engine hatch ( work in progress)

jYqw5.jpg

jYyHS.jpg

jYNjm.jpg

jYJ50.jpg



Posted By: Grady | Posted on: Jun 19, 2020 - 11:30am
Total Posts: 73 | Joined: Oct 2, 2018 - 8:04am



Thanks to Jeff D at pt103.com for the advise on the hatch ladders, made a simple jig for soldering , shaped and framed the deck hatch opening

jYVdc.jpg

jYf83.jpg

jYHOT.jpg

jYKLt.jpg



Posted By: Grady | Posted on: Jun 19, 2020 - 11:32am
Total Posts: 73 | Joined: Oct 2, 2018 - 8:04am



Hi,
Following your build and enjoying the progress. Sorry to say I am pretty sure 105 did not have the speed cranks on the daycabin roof as she was not fitted with the 90 degree gearboxes for them, certainly not early on anyway.

Best Regards,
Stu.






Posted By: Stuart Hurley | Posted on: Jun 19, 2020 - 1:25pm
Total Posts: 241 | Joined: Mar 19, 2013 - 3:32am



Thanks Stu, I did not know about the cranks, However I do use your Italeri 109 build as part of my reference guides, so I went back to Jeffs site and looked at your notes . I will remove the cranks, do the mounts stay?? I have no idea what a 77 horizontal type gear box looks like any help here would be great, I will also reach out to Jeff D, last question the hatch ladders which way do they face ? to bad about the cranks I really had a tough time getting the bends to look right.
Thanks Mike




Posted By: Grady | Posted on: Jun 20, 2020 - 3:00am
Total Posts: 73 | Joined: Oct 2, 2018 - 8:04am



Mike,
I believe the mounts were absent Have a look at the photos taken just prior to shipping out on the Stanton. 105 features among the shots and i don't see the mounts. The gearboxes were still in design so not fitted at that time so i doubt any provision was made to cater for them. I made the same effort to fit them on my model but discovered they were not fitted to the 109 either. Ladders were fitted to port in the forward hatchways and lazarette and over the stbd forward window of the daycabin. The engine room ladder was fitted forward. Note, the daycabin hatch opened to port on these early boats. The tube training gear screwjacks are featured amongst the pdfs linked to Jeffs torpedo tube drawings. They were just a square drive and shaft held in a u shaped mount. I was still learning (still am) when i built my 109 model and was continually refining it. I have changed a couple of little details since the article, notably the rounded off daycabin rear corner and some other very small things. I missed the z shaped stiffeners between the lower tube frames but decided not to fit those as i would have caused more damage than they were worth as they are pretty much invisible anyway. Jeff helped me along the way with many photos and drawings. I am sure you will get all the help you need on this board, everyone here is most generous. Keep up the good work.

Best Regards,
Stu.






Posted By: Stuart Hurley | Posted on: Jun 20, 2020 - 6:07am
Total Posts: 241 | Joined: Mar 19, 2013 - 3:32am



Added the foot rails, had to soak & heat bend them into place, always run the risk of snapping or splintering long single pieces when shaping the curve. luckily I took it slow and easy, they turned out the way it should. Thanks again Stu, When I started this build I knew nothing about PTs ( still don’t know much, but learning) All I knew I was fascinated by the boats and there crews, that has evolved into being horribly hooked, Jeff D said I was joining the nut club. Also attempted to round off the starboard Aft corner of the day cabin, not to sure how much it needs.
Thanks for all the support
Mike

jYnTw.jpg

jYtws.jpg

jY9KH.jpg

jYAa4.jpg



Posted By: Grady | Posted on: Jun 20, 2020 - 11:29am
Total Posts: 73 | Joined: Oct 2, 2018 - 8:04am



The edge rounding of the day cabin stbd aft corner is hard to see in photos. It took me a while to verify exactly where this F-F section view was showing:

jYcjM.jpg

You can see the early tube training gear in a few images here: [url]http://www.pt103.com/PT_Boat_Components_Torpedo_Tube_Images_Elco.html[/url] The PT 107 view from the fwd deck should be of help. It shows this bracket from Al's torpedo tube drawings well:

jYeNJ.jpg




Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Jun 21, 2020 - 5:25am
Total Posts: 1928 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am



Thanks Jeff, the gear box looks pretty straight forward to make, The day cabin aft corner curve looks to be a slight round at the roof corner ???
your right it does not really stand out much so easy to miss.
again thanks Mike



Posted By: Grady | Posted on: Jun 22, 2020 - 2:04am
Total Posts: 73 | Joined: Oct 2, 2018 - 8:04am



It's mostly just on the straight vertical part and ends / blends in before it reaches the aft roof molding:

jYig7.jpg




Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Jun 22, 2020 - 4:34am
Total Posts: 1928 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am



Hey Mike, Dick rescued a good discussion we had about the torpedo tubes and fixed all the broken images (thanks PHOTOBUCKET). There's some good info on the earlier parts like what the 105 had: [url]http://www.ptboatforum.com/cgi-bin/MB2/netboardr.cgi?fid=102&cid=101&tid=3708&st=0&nd=10&pg=1&sc=20[/url].




Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Jun 22, 2020 - 4:51am
Total Posts: 1928 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am



Jeff , hope all is well your way
Anyway 2 questions, the 20mm did the early boats use the spent cartridge bag , and or the gunners belt ? can find pics of the 20mm in trials, training , but not many pics of the aft section in theatre. 2. The 77 training gear box , guessing here but it looks like it did not set on the rail pad ?
Once again your help is always appreciated .
Mike




Posted By: Grady | Posted on: Jun 24, 2020 - 2:40pm
Total Posts: 73 | Joined: Oct 2, 2018 - 8:04am



I do not have an answer for your 20mm question but here's some shots of the early 80 Elco training gear, the type without the right angle adapter. It's hard to see the little spuds in photos especially for the aft tubes:

jY1Ti.jpg

jYdWy.jpg

jYD8g.jpg

For comparison, PT 149 with the right angle adapter:

jYgL8.jpg




Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Jun 25, 2020 - 6:13am
Total Posts: 1928 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am



Great CUs.....

Will

Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Jun 26, 2020 - 1:34pm
Total Posts: 1920 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm



The refueling at sea operation looked like a tricky, dangerous business.



Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Jun 27, 2020 - 4:43am
Total Posts: 1928 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am



Jeff;
It is.
Take care,
TED



Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Jun 27, 2020 - 9:15am
Total Posts: 2906 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am



First may you all have and enjoyable 4th. The strength of our nation will always shine thru.
I know this is a small, however was the inside of the deck hatches painted the same as the deck ? the inside lip of the hatch frame what color was it painted ?




Posted By: Grady | Posted on: Jul 4, 2020 - 6:46am
Total Posts: 73 | Joined: Oct 2, 2018 - 8:04am



The drawing states that they were to be painted gray on the outside and white on interior surfaces (note 1) but several photos of boats in theater show that the interior was painted dark / maybe deck color. The 2 photos below may be deck colored but unfaded. The lower frame rim that seals against the hatch gasket looks to be unpainted:

jYlpo.jpg

jYXaA.jpg

jYsNI.jpg




Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Jul 4, 2020 - 11:11am
Total Posts: 1928 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am



Thanks Jeff great pics , I really didn't think they left them white, but I always like that second look from the experts In my group we changed every surface before entering the theater, thanks Grady



Posted By: Grady | Posted on: Jul 5, 2020 - 3:35am
Total Posts: 73 | Joined: Oct 2, 2018 - 8:04am



Finished the 20mm Oerlikon, pretty happy with it

jYxgn.jpg

jYIPZ.jpg

jYTWa.jpg

jYUcf.jpg

jYUcf.jpg

jYkUj.jpg



Posted By: Grady | Posted on: Jul 5, 2020 - 6:59am
Total Posts: 73 | Joined: Oct 2, 2018 - 8:04am



Good job on the 20mm Mike. You sure are productive!

What does this mean, in your previous post?:

[green]In my group we changed every surface before entering the theater[/green]




Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Jul 6, 2020 - 5:23am
Total Posts: 1928 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am



Jeff D do you have any drawing for the 50 Cal Gun tub? Allot of good info on the guns & mounts, having trouble with the basic tubs.
Grady




Posted By: Grady | Posted on: Jul 10, 2020 - 6:15am
Total Posts: 73 | Joined: Oct 2, 2018 - 8:04am



In Dick's Elco drawing collection, the turret plan is ELCO_Roll_5535-2_72SCAN_00528.pdf / ELCO_Roll_5535-2_72SCAN_00527.pdf. The machine gun mount brackets is ELCO_Roll_5535-2_72SCAN_00522.pdf. I used them on my drawing here: [url]http://www.pt103.com/PT_Boat_Components_Turrets.html[/url]. I also have the layout for the limiting stops on it which should come in handy. The Elco drawings for them are not accurate above the support pieces and mentions that they are to be constructed from full scale templates that were. Note that the 105 would not have had the door shown here:

[image]http://www.pt103.com/images/PT_Boat_Elco_103_Class_Turret_Forward_Perspective.jpg[/image]




Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Jul 10, 2020 - 1:59pm
Total Posts: 1928 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am



Torpedo tube training gear, rope locker hatch

jdmmg.jpg

jd5oi.jpg

jdNrO.jpg



Posted By: Grady | Posted on: Jul 13, 2020 - 11:15am
Total Posts: 73 | Joined: Oct 2, 2018 - 8:04am



LOL, the hatch cover is about 3/8". Ffinerr work than I could do! What did you do, train ants to cut file and solder??? [:-laughing-:]



Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Jul 14, 2020 - 1:50am
Total Posts: 1928 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am



turrets ,and foot stands still very much a work in progress

jdJlk.jpg

jdf4A.jpg



Posted By: Grady | Posted on: Jul 26, 2020 - 10:52am
Total Posts: 73 | Joined: Oct 2, 2018 - 8:04am



Torpedo tubs cut ready to fabricate Also Jeff D do you know the roll number's for the tube plans on Dicks film ?? i

jdtea.jpg



Posted By: Grady | Posted on: Aug 6, 2020 - 3:39am
Total Posts: 73 | Joined: Oct 2, 2018 - 8:04am



It's not in the Elco plan set, you can grab them on Dick's web site here: [url]http://www.pt103.gdinc.com/drawings/21inchAWTorpedoTubeMark18.zip[/url]. A big thanks to Dr. Al Ross for sourcing and sharing them! I'll take some credit also for scanning scaling straightening and stitching them together.

Be aware of some minor changes in the different Mods included in the set.




Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Aug 6, 2020 - 5:44am
Total Posts: 1928 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am



Thanks Jeff, and always a big thanks to Al Ross. New guys like me would be nowhere without all much valued expertise provided here.



Posted By: Grady | Posted on: Aug 6, 2020 - 9:03am
Total Posts: 73 | Joined: Oct 2, 2018 - 8:04am



Test fitting the control panel before cleaning it up

jd9kf.jpg

jdLCj.jpg



Posted By: Grady | Posted on: Aug 10, 2020 - 10:44am
Total Posts: 73 | Joined: Oct 2, 2018 - 8:04am



Starting to show a little progress , attempting to scratch build the torpedo tubes, learning from plans & pictures . its fun but trying to get it right is slow work. fit tested parts of the of the superstructure, and cleaned up the control panel

j1BXk.jpg

j1NjA.jpg

j1JNo.jpg

j1f8n.jpg



Posted By: Grady | Posted on: Aug 29, 2020 - 8:44am
Total Posts: 73 | Joined: Oct 2, 2018 - 8:04am



First stage building the components for the torpedo tubes, ready to be cleaned up. Been tough going trying to get all the repeated parts a close match,

j6E1Y.jpg



Posted By: Grady | Posted on: Sep 16, 2020 - 2:48am
Total Posts: 73 | Joined: Oct 2, 2018 - 8:04am



Nicely done, all these little details x 4 must be an exercise in patience! Keep up the good work Mike.



Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Sep 17, 2020 - 4:15am
Total Posts: 1928 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am