The PT Boat Forum
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Forum Category: PT Boats of WWII
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Forum Name: PT Boats - General
http://www.ptboatforum.com/cgi-bin/MB2/netboard.cgi?fct=gotoforum&cid=101&fid=102


Topic: RON 5 PT 105
http://www.ptboatforum.com/cgi-bin/MB2/netboardr.cgi?cid=101&fid=102&tid=4888



Recently while doing some research for my PT 105 build I come across an article where Dick Keresey skipper of the 105 stated all the RON 5 boats were painted a shade of grey, possibly gunship grey, I know colour pics are very scarce, so does anyone have any more thought on this ? Also on the engine room companion way 103 class boats was there handles or latches on the lid ? any help ,advise would be great



Posted By: Grady | Posted on: Jan 6, 2020 - 3:39am
Total Posts: 36 | Joined: Oct 2, 2018 - 8:04am



Are you asking about the factory delivery color or in service? The 103 class boats were factory painted in Navy Gray (No. 5) hull with Dark Gray (No. 5-D). Later, Measure 13 paint scheme.



Former crew member of the Big Blue Sightseer ex-PT 486

Posted By: Gerry McGovern | Posted on: Jan 6, 2020 - 6:10am
Total Posts: 69 | Joined: Oct 7, 2016 - 1:47pm



jtSrI.jpg


Former crew member of the Big Blue Sightseer ex-PT 486

Posted By: Gerry McGovern | Posted on: Jan 6, 2020 - 6:14am
Total Posts: 69 | Joined: Oct 7, 2016 - 1:47pm



jtzsn.jpg

Former crew member of the Big Blue Sightseer ex-PT 486

Posted By: Gerry McGovern | Posted on: Jan 6, 2020 - 6:17am
Total Posts: 69 | Joined: Oct 7, 2016 - 1:47pm



thanks Gerry, looking for in theater paint scheme, I know there were allot of variations as you use what ever you can get your hands on at the time. There's no mention of colour in Dick Kersey's book, so I don't know the time frame he said the boats were Grey. anyway good advise thanks



Posted By: Grady | Posted on: Jan 6, 2020 - 9:03am
Total Posts: 36 | Joined: Oct 2, 2018 - 8:04am



Grady,
Some boats were repainted in overall ocean grey 5-0 which was darker than the factory greys. Below the waterline they retained the copperoyd coating.
The engine room hatch had two latches which were locked by turning them 90 degrees similar to a door handle.

Try here http://pt103.com

Stu






Posted By: Stuart Hurley | Posted on: Jan 6, 2020 - 1:46pm
Total Posts: 237 | Joined: Mar 19, 2013 - 3:32am



Here are some details of the hatchway showing the handle placement, from Dick Washichek's collection. He has generously decided to put them up for free download, see the "Documents" link. The first shows where the holes should be drilled in the forward cover for the handles:

j9p6f.jpg

j9jVa.jpg




Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Jan 6, 2020 - 3:38pm
Total Posts: 1806 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am



Thanks Stu, The paint is a real Grey area, no pun intended the hatch hinges and latch's was something I could not find
Jeff D has been a great help during my build, The outstanding information on his site has been the main stay of my work. I kind of feel guilty emailing him all the time with simply questions, however as in his last post he's always there to help Thanks Jeff




Posted By: Grady | Posted on: Jan 7, 2020 - 3:44am
Total Posts: 36 | Joined: Oct 2, 2018 - 8:04am



Grady,
The greys are certainly variable depending on the time frame. The paints issued at the time were not always pre-mixed and utilised a tinting colour which could be added to produce the various shades. Personally i think 5-D is too dark tonally looking at period photos, and i think 5-0 is more likely. 5-D was reckoned to be too contrasty . The use of 5-0 on small craft was known as measure 14 IIRC

Best Regards,
Stu.






Posted By: Stuart Hurley | Posted on: Jan 7, 2020 - 4:50am
Total Posts: 237 | Joined: Mar 19, 2013 - 3:32am



lol thanks Grady it's always nice to be appreciated!

I forgot about the hinges. The covers were attached with a full length 1 1/4 - 1 1/2 piano hinge with a rubber strip inderneath that appears to stick out a little past the ends of the hinge. Photo (cropped) of PT 127's Motor Mac Hank Amority courtesy of [url]http://pt127.org/[/url]. It looks like they added an air scoop to the hatchway's forward cover:

j9oCY.jpg




Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Jan 7, 2020 - 8:18am
Total Posts: 1806 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am



Oops, the scoop was added to the rear cover not the front...



Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Jan 7, 2020 - 3:02pm
Total Posts: 1806 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am



I was fortunate enough to have a discussion with Mr. Keresey about the 105 boat. He told me it was "Battleship Gray". I think that's buried somewhere in the forum. According to the reference I have from Dr. Ross the color should be Measure 1, overall 5D. This is how she was painted in Panama and it carried over into theatre. Under his command it was not green. Later photos show her in camouflage. That's the boat I'm going to finish one of these days!
Dave

David Waples

Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Jan 10, 2020 - 2:41pm
Total Posts: 1591 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm



Looks like they had a U-shaped pipe/bar that fit in a clip on the underside of the aft engine room hatch door to hold it open.

Wonder if all the early 80' Elcos with the original small, two-door engine room hatches had this hold-open device?

I've always thought of the 105 under Mr. Keresey as being 5D Gray.

Posted By: Drew Cook | Posted on: Jan 11, 2020 - 8:07am
Total Posts: 1243 | Joined: Oct 19, 2006 - 10:44am



Thanks Dave & Drew
Now I can check off the color search , each step more research, more pictures , more plans to follow. Starting to learn my way around the boat.



Posted By: Grady | Posted on: Jan 11, 2020 - 10:55am
Total Posts: 36 | Joined: Oct 2, 2018 - 8:04am



According to the drawing they all had it Drew. It's actually the forward door, the aft one was traded in for an air scoop. I also see the attachments for the short-lived canvas air scoop on the sides of the base.




Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Jan 12, 2020 - 4:21am
Total Posts: 1806 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am



I found this shot of the 114 Drew, you can see the holdopen bar and it looks like the 127 wasn't the only boat to add a scoop to the small early hatchway:

j91uZ.jpg




Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Jan 12, 2020 - 3:54pm
Total Posts: 1806 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am



Great Pic Jeff, looks like they are being scrapped , sad So moving on Does anyone have pictures/drawings of 103 class boats 20 mm ammunition box’s I have a few, but would like have a few more for reference.
Thanks Grady




Posted By: Grady | Posted on: Jan 13, 2020 - 4:02am
Total Posts: 36 | Joined: Oct 2, 2018 - 8:04am



Yep sad indeed. I sent you some partly legible drawings, hope they help.



Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Jan 13, 2020 - 12:08pm
Total Posts: 1806 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am



The site has been a godsent for me stepping into the world of the PTs, however with a background in building rigged ships, I limited my posts to asking questions & research for my first PT build, I have been reluctant to post any photos of my build on the site, mainly because there’s a lot of PT experts here . I’m learning more about the boats so I guessed it was time I'm further along than this, however to pics of the deck keep in mind I’m not a professional builder & very little experience with Pts

jAWRo.jpg

jAqhI.jpg



Posted By: Grady | Posted on: Jan 19, 2020 - 11:08am
Total Posts: 36 | Joined: Oct 2, 2018 - 8:04am



Nice Grady, it's going be a shame to paint that deck! What kind of wood is that?




Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Jan 20, 2020 - 2:40am
Total Posts: 1806 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am



Thanks Jeff, its mahogany, same as the hull, except the hull has about 6 coats of primer on it. I have been working on an outside the box plan for the deck. This is the outcome of the plans you sent

jAyHn.jpg

jABXZ.jpg

jANGa.jpg

jAJ5f.jpg



Posted By: Grady | Posted on: Jan 20, 2020 - 3:08am
Total Posts: 36 | Joined: Oct 2, 2018 - 8:04am



Hey cool, the same wood the real ones were planked with! [:-cheers-:]



Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Jan 20, 2020 - 11:38am
Total Posts: 1806 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am



I know the old saying “there are no stupid questions” so I will ask a simple one Does the 20 mm ready ammo lockers open inboard or out board on the early 103 class boats ?



Posted By: Grady | Posted on: Jan 29, 2020 - 4:37am
Total Posts: 36 | Joined: Oct 2, 2018 - 8:04am



The latches were inboard, hinges outboard on the 109. Note the 20mm signal horn hiding between the boxes:

jAljg.jpg




Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Jan 29, 2020 - 10:36am
Total Posts: 1806 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am



Are the heater units on the Elco 80’s all the same type? And does anyone if some of the boats removed them once in the Pacific theatre ?.



Posted By: Grady | Posted on: Feb 1, 2020 - 5:25am
Total Posts: 36 | Joined: Oct 2, 2018 - 8:04am



Unless destined for a cold climate, most likely the boat carried a very similar looking rubber boat stowage locker which was usually removed early on. It was located in the same place as the heater. See these 2 threads:
[url]http://www.ptboatforum.com/cgi-bin/MB2/netboardr.cgi?fid=102&cid=101&tid=3993&pg=23&sc=20&x=0[/url]
[url]http://www.ptboatforum.com/cgi-bin/MB2/netboardr.cgi?fid=102&cid=101&tid=3110&st=20&nd=30&pg=36&sc=20[/url]

Here's the drawing for it:

jAsNy.jpg




Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Feb 1, 2020 - 11:57am
Total Posts: 1806 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am



Thanks Jeff
I went back and looked at the links, about same size and shape as a heater unit, but no visible heating duct. Also I go along with if we don’t need it lose it theory, weight & space are critical. So if not a heater or raft locker, did anything go there??




Posted By: Grady | Posted on: Feb 2, 2020 - 2:31am
Total Posts: 36 | Joined: Oct 2, 2018 - 8:04am



Exactly, one thing PT crews weren't was pack rats! You'd have to check photos of specific boats but I've noticed nothing there for the most part except for the occasional ammo locker.

One thing that I found interesting on the early boats with heaters, the 103 - 162, was that they used the throttle rod housing that ran along the starboard coaming as a duct for heated air:

jAxd8.jpg




Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Feb 2, 2020 - 3:12am
Total Posts: 1806 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am



Thanks Jeff I think I will go without the heater unit on the 105, Ok I see what your talking about that’s the duct flange cover on the throttle rod housing Aft end of the day room right. Would you listen to me I’m becoming one of you?



Posted By: Grady | Posted on: Feb 2, 2020 - 4:07am
Total Posts: 36 | Joined: Oct 2, 2018 - 8:04am



lol you have fallen into the whirlpool and are being sucked down. Welcome!



Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Feb 2, 2020 - 7:23am
Total Posts: 1806 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am



Grady,
105 certainly had the raft box in photos of her refueling en-route to the Galapagos Is. from Panama.

Best Regards,
Stu.






Posted By: Stuart Hurley | Posted on: Feb 4, 2020 - 12:37am
Total Posts: 237 | Joined: Mar 19, 2013 - 3:32am



Here is the photo Stu mentioned along with a few others. The series of photos taken July 1942, probably at Melville, shows her with depth charges in place of the aft torpedo tubes:

jAULk.jpg

jA0bo.jpg

jA8an.jpg

jAkTA.jpg

jATWO.jpg

jAI8i.jpg

jA2KI.jpg





Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Feb 4, 2020 - 6:59am
Total Posts: 1806 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am



Thanks Jeff & Stu.
A couple of the pics I did not have. Ok I’m looking at the box right behind the day cabin aft side correct ?




Posted By: Grady | Posted on: Feb 4, 2020 - 7:35am
Total Posts: 36 | Joined: Oct 2, 2018 - 8:04am



The first couple of pictures of being loaded on a ship are not at Melville. Melville didn't look like that. I believe it's the Brooklyn Navy Yard (technically the New York Navy Yard in Brooklyn). That's what Dirk Keresey says in his book PT 105 as they shipped out to Panama.


Charlie

Posted By: 29navy | Posted on: Feb 4, 2020 - 7:43am
Total Posts: 499 | Joined: Dec 28, 2006 - 3:02pm



Grady,
Right behind the day cabin starboard side, in place of the heater unit. In thr refuelling photo the rear corner is visible.

Best Regards,
Stu.






Posted By: Stuart Hurley | Posted on: Feb 4, 2020 - 2:23pm
Total Posts: 237 | Joined: Mar 19, 2013 - 3:32am



Thanks Charlie.

I believe it is Mike, don't know what the odds and ends are around the lockers of both boats are though. Here's a closeup:

jASpZ.jpg

Here's the locker (PT 117) compared to the heater (PT 141):

jAzNa.jpg





Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Feb 4, 2020 - 2:37pm
Total Posts: 1806 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am



Here's a detail that's often overlooked. The forward most starboard side window on the Day Cabin is the same frame as that on the forward side of the Chart House. This window is the non opening type because it is located behind the ladder and hatch. I've yet to see a modeling company get that right.

When I spoke with Mr. Keresey about his boat he told me that the life raft was often on top of the Chart House or they threw it on the Day Cabin. They wanted it out of the way.

Dave

David Waples

Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Feb 4, 2020 - 2:45pm
Total Posts: 1591 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm



Thanks guys , this is really good info. Dave dead light frame with no rain guards on the forward starboard window of the day cabin,. totally missed it. Looks like I will be going back and correcting.
also same type on forward window correct ?



Posted By: Grady | Posted on: Feb 5, 2020 - 3:02am
Total Posts: 36 | Joined: Oct 2, 2018 - 8:04am



Grady,
No, there was a rain strip on the forward window and drain to port. Aft window, rain strip and drain to stbd. Welcome to the can of worms.

Best Regards,
Stu.






Posted By: Stuart Hurley | Posted on: Feb 5, 2020 - 3:12am
Total Posts: 237 | Joined: Mar 19, 2013 - 3:32am




Thanks guys , this is really good info. Dave dead light frame with no rain guards on the forward starboard window of the day cabin,. totally missed it. Looks like I will be going back and correcting.
also same type on forward window correct ?



No. The forward and aft windows on the Day Cabin are the same as all the others. The only exception is the one behind the ladder which you can see in the attached photo. Note that the black out panel behind the ladder slides up and down instead of hinging in.

[image]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49491761338_39bee2646f_o.jpg[/image]

David Waples

Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Feb 5, 2020 - 5:56am
Total Posts: 1591 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm



Thanks all, The new guy is a little slow at picking up the finer points, however you don't get it right if you don't ask
Grady



Posted By: Grady | Posted on: Feb 5, 2020 - 8:31am
Total Posts: 36 | Joined: Oct 2, 2018 - 8:04am



One other detail about the day cabin windows, the stbd fwd fixed window was mounted against the outside while the others were inset quite a bit:

jLEgT.jpg




Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Feb 6, 2020 - 8:31am
Total Posts: 1806 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am



Jeff, my first try at making the 20mm horn, using the pics you sent, close I think, maybe a little short on the support post, still at this scale the simple is patience test thoughts if I should rework ?
Grady

jLcro.jpg

jLelI.jpg



Posted By: Grady | Posted on: Feb 13, 2020 - 2:38am
Total Posts: 36 | Joined: Oct 2, 2018 - 8:04am



Sheesh that thing is tiny! Looks good to me Mike.



Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Feb 13, 2020 - 3:55am
Total Posts: 1806 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am



Thanks Jeff, passing muster is important, you once told me what AMS was, know I got it thanks for adding to the "Fun " of details matter



Posted By: Grady | Posted on: Feb 13, 2020 - 4:15am
Total Posts: 36 | Joined: Oct 2, 2018 - 8:04am



Grady;
Charlie posted:
"The first couple of pictures of being loaded on a ship are not at Melville. Melville didn't look like that. I believe it's the Brooklyn Navy Yard (technically the New York Navy Yard in Brooklyn). That's what Dirk Keresey says in his book PT 105 as they shipped out to Panama.


Charlie"

PT 105 and the rest of RON 5 ran down from the Brooklyn Navy Yard to Norfolk Virginia. They are being loaded at what is called Norfolk Naval Shipyard in Portsmounth Virginia. The ship is at pier 5. I worked there for 3 years.

Take care,
TED



Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Feb 13, 2020 - 5:30pm
Total Posts: 2873 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am



The mast frame for the 103 class boat, looking for a good way to put, this from the pics and drawing for Jeff D’s site it’s not round, yet it’s not square looking either , if that makes sense. Can anyone help the shape of the frame parts. ?



Posted By: Grady | Posted on: Feb 15, 2020 - 8:35am
Total Posts: 36 | Joined: Oct 2, 2018 - 8:04am



I have the cross sections on the mast drawing, they're hard to notice but they are to the left of the side view. The legs are an airfoil shape and they taper towards the top. Here's one to the left of the base socket:

jLaoS.jpg




Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Feb 15, 2020 - 8:53am
Total Posts: 1806 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am



Thanks Jeff, When you look hard at it, I see what you mean. My best guess for getting the material would be Aero or streamline tubing .

Great , once I get the close size so I can order the tube, Let the mast building began. .



Posted By: Grady | Posted on: Feb 15, 2020 - 9:46am
Total Posts: 36 | Joined: Oct 2, 2018 - 8:04am



Fit checking parts on the engine house cover, still some clean up to do, smooth out some of the wood, more primer, but getting there. Did I miss anything in the detail?



Posted By: Grady | Posted on: Feb 16, 2020 - 6:38am
Total Posts: 36 | Joined: Oct 2, 2018 - 8:04am




I guess this part would help, age is great


jLRVc.jpg

jLT63.jpg

jLT63.jpg

jLUST.jpg



Posted By: Grady | Posted on: Feb 16, 2020 - 6:41am
Total Posts: 36 | Joined: Oct 2, 2018 - 8:04am



Grady;
Why did you paint the dead light on the engine room hatch? The amount of detail you are adding, why take this short cut? I don’t really remember a photo where they painted over these, because, as Jeff has shown on his factory blueprint based 3D schematics, these all had “inside shutters “ , so light would not be seen on the outside. They had a strict no paint direction in one of the guidebooks or blueprints I read. Otherwise you are doing great.
Take care,
TED



Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Feb 16, 2020 - 8:49am
Total Posts: 2873 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am



*****FFM Duplicate message*****



Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Feb 16, 2020 - 9:39am
Total Posts: 2873 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am



Thanks Ted, what's the reason I put it out there, because I will miss or misinterpret things like this. I simply don't have the depth of knowledge about the boats. As long as things keep getting pointed out , I will do my best (skill level ) to fix them and get them right
Mike



Posted By: Grady | Posted on: Feb 16, 2020 - 10:06am
Total Posts: 36 | Joined: Oct 2, 2018 - 8:04am



👍🏻



Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Feb 16, 2020 - 12:01pm
Total Posts: 2873 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am



Ted,
Once I get the frame removed, what is the background? a frosted plastic, or a blackout shade?
& are they all this way on the engine cover Also some pictures show the side frames without bars, the Elco blueprints are hard to read, but it looks like they say only the #7 frames have bars which looks to be the hatch & the Aft frame? I just want to clarify this.
As always, your input is valued.
Mike




Posted By: Grady | Posted on: Feb 17, 2020 - 4:18am
Total Posts: 36 | Joined: Oct 2, 2018 - 8:04am



Clear plastic. here are some photos on even showing the back side of the hatch with shutter.

jLvqt.jpg
PT171 RON 10

jL0iw.jpg
PT127 RON 7 and RON 12. Early engineroom hatch with later style vent added on top.

jL2ks.jpg

jLPCH.jpg
Early series ELCO 80 at Melville. Engineroom hatch open.



Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Feb 17, 2020 - 8:52am
Total Posts: 2873 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am