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» Forum Name: PT Boats - General
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» Topic:
WHAT WAS THE TRUE COLOR PAINT JOB ON THE 109
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AHOY THERE ONE AND ALL!
FIRST OF ALL i'M VERY HAPPY TO BE REGISTERED WITH THE PT BOATS MESSAGE BOARD. I EXPECT TO BE USING THIS BOARD AS A MAJOR REFFERENCE POINT IN MY MODEL WORK AND PT BOATS HISTORY. I HAVE USED THE BOARD IN THE PAST AND YOU GUYS ARE "THE BEST"!!
RIGHT OUT OF THE GATE LET ME SAY THAT I'M A SCALE SHIP MODELER AND HAVE 1/32 SCALE MODELS OF THE 169 IN RON 10 ZEBRA STRIPE CAMO, THE 176 AND THE 196! THESE THREE MODEL ARE ALL RADIO CONTROLLED!
CAN ANYONE OUT THERE TELL ME THE REAL HONEST TO GOD COLOR 'MEASURE' OF THE 109? I'M PRETTY SURE THAT THE BOAT WAS OD GREEN AND NOT HAZE GRAY!
THERE ARE A TON OF BEAUTIFUL SCALE RADIO CONTROLLED 109'S OUT THERE ON THE HOBBY MARKET AND ON E-BAY, BUT EVERY SINGLE ONE IS PAINTED GRAY OVERALL. HORIZON HOBBIES IS COMING OUT WITH A 1'24TH SCALE VERSION IN NOVEMBER. SHE'S 40 INCHES LONG AND DETAILED TO THE MAX. I PEEKED AT THE WEB PAGE OVER AT HOBBY TOWN USA SHOP. SHE GET UP ON A PLANE, TWIN MOTOR DRIVE AND WATER COOLED TO BOOT. ABOUT $350 FOR ALL WITH THE RADIO. NOT A BAD DEAL! BUT SHES PAINTED OVER ALL HAZE GRAY!!
I SAY THIS IS THE WRONG COLOR FOR A BOAT THAT SERVED IN THE SOUTH PACIFIC! WHO'S RIGHT AND WHO'S WRONG HERE. IT WOULD BE A SON OF A GUN TO HAVE TO REPAINT THAT ENTIRE MODEL OD GREEN!!
THANKS FOR LETTING ME BLOW MY RELIEF VALVE! ANY BODY HAVE ANY COMMENTS TO OFFER? LET'S GET THIS STRAIGHT OFF TO THE HOBBY SHOPS AND TO THE MAKERS OF THESE MODELS AND TELL THEM IF WERE GONNA PAY THROUGH THE NOSE FOR A MODEL, AT LEAST GET THE COLOR RIGHT!
FRANK RYCZEK
FRIEND MODELER RON-10 169 "ZEBRA SNAFU'
HIGH TIDES ALWAYS!
YOUR FRIEND THROUGH SCALE SHIP MODELING AND PT BOAT HISTORY!
Posted By: FRANK | Posted on: Oct 11, 2007 - 4:56pm
Total Posts: 349 | Joined: Oct 7, 2007 - 2:09pm
Ah, Frank, you've asked one of the most-speculated-about questions in all of WWII-PT boat research history!
The answer, in short, is still not known for dead-solid-certain, but MOST PT boat historians/enthusiasts who have studied the topic believe the 109, at least at the time of her ramming/sinking on August 2, 1943, to have been some shade of green, as were many PTs in the Solomons at that time. The Japanese didn't call the PTs "Green Dragons" for nothing.
The most compelling evidence for the boat having been green is a sentence in Robert J. Donovan's best-selling book "PT 109 - John F. Kennedy in World War II," an exhaustively-researched work published in 1961, for which Donovan had interviewed all the surviving crew members.
In Chapter III of the book, Donovan writes: "When her turn came PT 109 went into drydock, and Kennedy donned shorts and worked with the men in scraping the bottom, cleaning the bilge, sandpapering and putting on a fresh coat of paint. For camouflage in the waterways among the islands the boat was painted forest green." This would have been in late April or early May of 1943.
There remains some speculation among historians/enthusiasts whether the 109 had been gray before this drydock painting, had already been overpainted green before this time - or, was still gray from her days as a member of MTB Squadron 5 (Donovan's "forest green" color being in error). The 109 had arrived in the Solomon Islands as a member of MTB Squadron 2 in late November of 1942, so she had been in combat for five months when JFK took command.
One of the members of this site, Frank Andruss, spoke with four surviving veterans who served on the 109 under JFK about the 109's color -- two remembered the boat as being green, while the other two remembered her as being gray! Make of that what you will.
So, to recap -- the consensus among historians and enthusiasts seems to be that the 109 was most probably some (unknown) shade of flat green. It is much less likely the boat was still gray. It is unknown for certain.
Posted By: Drew Cook | Posted on: Oct 11, 2007 - 6:24pm
Total Posts: 1306 | Joined: Oct 19, 2006 - 10:44am
Ahoy there, Drew-
Many thanks for your compelling overviews on the subject of the true coloration of PT 109. I do remember seeing a colorized shot of her in a magazine some time ago. I think it might have been in an Sea History magazine. That shot showed her in a faded out "green". I wish I could have saved that photo!
Many thanks for your thoughts on this subject!
Frank Ryczek
Friend/Modeler Ron 10 PT-169
HIGH TIDES ALWAYS!
YOUR FRIEND THROUGH SCALE SHIP MODELING AND PT BOAT HISTORY!
Posted By: FRANK | Posted on: Oct 11, 2007 - 6:42pm
Total Posts: 349 | Joined: Oct 7, 2007 - 2:09pm
Bear in mind also that "Out In The Area" at that time, the shades of green used were whatever could be cobbled together; therefore you've got some latitude as to the exact hue....probably something in the forest green neighborhood, dulled down and most likely hand-painted.
Will
Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Oct 12, 2007 - 10:12am
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm
AHOY THERE WILL-
THANK YOU KINDLY FOR YOUR INPUT ON THE COLORATION OF THE 109. I HAVE SEEN SOME DROP DEAD BEAUTIFUL MODELS OF THE 109 DONE UP IN BOTH ' GREEN ' AND ' HAZE GRAY '. I GUESS AT THIS POINT EVERYBODY'S RIGHT ABOUT THE COLORS OF THE 109.
SMOOTH SAILIN'
FRANK RYCZEK, JR
MODELER/ FRIEND RON 10
HIGH TIDES ALWAYS!
YOUR FRIEND THROUGH SCALE SHIP MODELING AND PT BOAT HISTORY!
Posted By: FRANK | Posted on: Oct 13, 2007 - 3:13pm
Total Posts: 349 | Joined: Oct 7, 2007 - 2:09pm
Guys:
My father was in all probability the very first modeler of a PT Boat, He served on the 113 Boat in '42 and '43 and was surveyed to shore duty thereafter as a result of injury. By 1949 he had "modeled" his 113 Boat which I have now. It is entirely of wood and is painted a very attractive green that would NEVER qualify as "forest green". It is a low lustre green the shade of old fashioned pea soup- something between OD and forest green. Did he paint it the "original color"? Given the amount of work and detail that he put into this I would assume so! But the 109 Boat? I don't know. My father claims that they were actually canabalizing that boat in New Guinea before Kennedy got it. Nothing definitive here- but something to ponder.
Allan
Posted By: Allan | Posted on: Oct 15, 2007 - 8:35pm
Total Posts: 161 | Joined: Sep 18, 2007 - 7:07pm
Hey Allen,
I have had access to the memiors of Bud Larsen, who was the original XO of the PT109 when it was commisioned, and took over as CO of the boat during its operational time up to the point of 5 days (April 20 1943) before JFK arrived on the boat on April 25, 1943. Larsen was there and a lot of the info is available to read on one of the better PT Boat websites around Gene Kirklands PT King website. On there, seen in the excerpt below, the PT109 was [red]never[/red] in New Guinea in order to be cannabalized. It was in the Solomons at the Sesapi PT Base on Tulagi, and then for a short time at the Russel Islands/Rendova. Just by the way, the Movie PT109 shows the boat is in dilapidated shape when JFK first showed up which couldnt be farther from the truth. The boat according to Larsen was one of the best boats available, and that was why the Squadron Commander Rollin Westholm always chose it as the boat to ride on. It was a relatively modern 80 footer, compared to the older and more worn 77 footers. Remember, this was in April of 1943. The first 80 foot Elcos didnt show up there until October-November 1942. So read the text below and draw your own conclusions...Jerry PT658 Portland OR
This is from Gene Kirklands wesite PT King
[url]http://www.geocities.com/pt_king/[/url]
The night of February 20/21, 1943 PT 109 and the other boats of Squadron Two screened the transport force headed to the Russells; there- after the PT’s made nightly patrols, but aside from the usual contretemps with floatplanes, the boats had no contact with the Japanese. One bright, moonlit night, [red]As CO of PT109, Ensign Bryant Larson[/red] was leading a two-boat section in PT109; it was a typical patrol for the boats working out of the Russells, a “milk run”. Then Cactus Control sent a coded message to the PT’s that meant action was imminent. As Larson decoded the message, the first words were “two DD’s (destroyers) sighted”; then a position was given that placed them very close to the PT’s. The position reported was so close that Larson ran out of the charthouse to the cockpit to see if he could spot the enemy vessels visually. On such a moonlit night a PT boat tangling with Japanese warships was tantamount to a suicide mission. After sweeping the sea with binoculars, it dawned on Larson and his crew that the coastwatcher that had sent the initial report to Cactus Control had spotted the two torpedo boats in the moonlight and had identified them as the “two destroyers”.
As it turned out, this would be Larson’s last combat patrol in the Solomons; the [red]Squadron Two boats were pulled out of the Russells in March 1943, shortly after Larson’s moonlight escapade, and were relieved by boats of Squadron Six.[/red] Squadron Two returned to Tulagi to have their boats overhauled; the original PT base was now fast becoming a quiet backwater of the war, save for the occasional nuisance raid from Washing Machine Charlie or Louie the Louse. One of these raids, on the night of March 5, “the Louse” dropped four bombs on Sesapi. The first three landed in the water while the fourth hit the PT operations shack, killing one officer and three enlisted men and seriously wounding another officer and another enlisted man. The hull of PT 118 moored nearby was riddled with shrapnel. [red]Some of 109’s days in March were spent in dry dock; her mufflers were changed, and the boat’s bottom was scraped of the green marine growth that accumulated there.[/red] Another test involving a radar set was made on March 15, but this one proved to be a bust; the set’s power supply was quite unreliable and was prone to fail at any given moment, and it was removed shortly afterwards. On April 1st XO Sam King was transferred to another boat; replacing him was Leonard J. Thom, a big, blond haired native of Sandusky, Ohio. Described as “a capable and warmhearted giant, who looked like a Viking who had lost his way and sailed into the South Pacific by mistake”, “Lenny” Thom personified the new breed of officer coming into the torpedo-boat corps at that time—former collegiate athletes that possessed the rough, tough, robust physiques to match; and PT109’s new exec still looked like the football player he had been before the war when he played left tackle at Ohio State in 1939 and 1940.
The Guadalcanal-Tulagi area was subjected to another air raid on April 7, 1943; it was the heaviest aerial bombardment staged by the Japanese since they were run off the island in February, 1943. 177 enemy aircraft were over the area, with one flight of dive-bombers hell-bent on attacking anything that moved in Tulagi Harbor. The New Zealand corvette Moa was hit by two bombs, and rapidly sank in four minutes. Of the twenty-five Japanese aircraft shot down in this raid, PT tender Niagara claimed seven; another enemy aircraft was shot down in flames by one of 109’s twin fifty-caliber mounts manned by Seaman James Bartlett. At the same time, under attack by nine Japanese dive-bombers was a small convoy approaching Tulagi that included tank landing ship LST 449; on board as passengers were a group of transient Navy officers bound for various assignments in the combat zone. One of these was a lieutenant j/g headed to Tulagi with orders to report to Squadron Two as a replacement. The new officer was a quiet young man with an unassuming manner who possessed a mop of brown hair that seemed to resist combing, spoke with what some called “that funny Boston accent”, and was incredibly lean—looking at him one would think he was far too frail for the slam-bang demands of the PT boat service. Fresh from Stateside PT duty with the training center at Melville, the bombs falling around the ship bringing him to the area quickly acquainted the young officer to the ways of Pacific warfare. Arriving at Sesapi several days later, the replacement served briefly as a temporary exec on George Wright’s PT 47, learning the rules of PT life in the Solomons. After riding a few patrols to get accustomed to the nightly routine, Wright informed the PT brass that the newcomer was ready for a boat of his own. Flotilla operations officer Rollin Westholm (now a lieutenant commander) chose the boat the new man would take over. Bud Larson and most of his crew were due for rotation home, so Westholm decided that the PT109—his old squadron flagship—would be assigned to the new skipper. By now, only Larson, quartermaster Guy Manning, and torpedoman Jack Edgar remained of the boat’s original crew; on the evening of [red]April 20[/red] these three, along with Roy Dunkin, George Lewis, William Jackson, James Bartlett, and William McMillan—were detached from duty, destined for two weeks rest and relaxation in Australia. Lenny Thom was left in temporary command with a skeleton force aboard. For the next five days, the PT 109 spent most of the time moored in the bushes along the banks of the Maliali River on Florida Island, occasionally shifting berths to take on water or fuel. On the morning of [red]April 25[/red], Ensign Thom took the boat to Sesapi to pick up 109’s new CO—a twenty-six year-old Harvard grad who introduced himself to Thom as Jack Kennedy. That same day, the men who would make up the nucleus of the 109’s new crew—Firemen Edmund Drewitch and Leon Drawdy, and Gunner’s Mate Charles Harris—also came aboard. The rest of the new crew—men with names like Maguire, Kirksey, Galeweski, Kowal, Mauer, Burchheit, and McMahon—reported for duty within the next two weeks. A few of these men would only stay for a short time, being transferred to other boats, or wounded in action and sent to hospital; those who remained would sail with the boat throughout the late spring and summer until the 109 met her ultimate fate one dark night in August 1943. But that was in the future—for now, the boat was in need of major maintenance after five months in the combat area—[red]the engines needed to be replaced, and the entire boat needed to be camouflaged in green to match the surrounding jungle,[/red] a job the previous crew had no time for when they originally brought the boat to the Solomons the previous November. Mr. Kennedy, Mr. Thom, and 109’s new crew set to the task of refurbishing the now-veteran torpedo boat; and in the process, the boat’s officers had the additional duty of forging the new men into an efficient team for the campaigns to come. With the departure of the remnants of the boat’s original crew, this little known phase of PT 109’s career was over; a new and much more heralded chapter was about to begin
Jerry Gilmartin
Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Oct 15, 2007 - 11:33pm
Total Posts: 1472 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm
Allen and all,
In all my years of casual PT boat research, I've seen only one brief clip of color film footage of a PT (I believe it was PT 149, in the Solomons), and its color was a very washed-out light green, very similar to Haze Green, a color that could be described as a "pea-green."
Posted By: Drew Cook | Posted on: Oct 16, 2007 - 5:28pm
Total Posts: 1306 | Joined: Oct 19, 2006 - 10:44am
Jerry:
Thanks for the refernce and I'll certainly check it out for any info related to the 113 and 114 boats. As to the 109- there was no real reason for anyone to attach any particular significance to the 109 at that particular time, I would think. My father was busy trying to survive and, in his much later years, probably substituted in his mind the 109 for another boat- his main contention was that they were constantly taking from one boat or another to get one or two out on patrol for that night. Torpedoes, ammo and fuel were all in short supply where he was. He constantly referred to being "up in there" meaning up into one of the many rivers- many times just one or two boats. His recollectiomns- not mine. Thanks for correcting the record.
Allan
Posted By: Allan | Posted on: Oct 16, 2007 - 7:35pm
Total Posts: 161 | Joined: Sep 18, 2007 - 7:07pm
AHOY THERE, ALAN, DREW & JERRY-
I AM TRULY THANKFUL FOR THE RESPONSES THAT I HAVE RECEIVED CONCERNING THE COLOR ' MEASURE ' OF THE PT 109. IT TRULY IS A TOUCHY SUBJECT, TO SAY THE LEAST!
THANKS AGAIN MY FRIENDS!
FRANK RYCZEK, JR.
MODELER/FRIEND RON-10 PT 169
HIGH TIDES ALWAYS!
YOUR FRIEND THROUGH SCALE SHIP MODELING AND PT BOAT HISTORY!
Posted By: FRANK | Posted on: Oct 17, 2007 - 6:47pm
Total Posts: 349 | Joined: Oct 7, 2007 - 2:09pm
You mentioned that you have footage of what you believe is PT149 underway? Is there any way that I could get a copy from you? Or could you point me in the right direction for acquiring this footage? My grandfather served on PT149 and would love to see this.
Jenni
Posted By: tngapch | Posted on: Nov 13, 2007 - 3:16pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
Jenni,
The piece of color film footage I mentioned that I think may be a green PT 149 underway is about a 10-second clip on a The History Channel series titled "History's Raiders," the particular segment of which is titled "PT Boats in the Pacific 1942-1945."
I've seen it broadcast only once, when I taped it onto VHS video tape. I've played that part of the tape so many times that the tape now glitches badly when the green PT comes onscreen. It would be useless to try to get it copied, the quality is so bad.
I tracked down the parent company that provides these documentaries to THC. They quite handily have a list of all their programs, and also quite enthusiastically state that you can purchase the programs on DVD, and give the email of their contact person to get in touch with to buy the DVDs.
Unfortunately, when I emailed the contact person, I found that "History's Raiders: PT Boats in the Pacific 1942-1945" apparently wasn't one of their many programs available for purchase on DVD. When I sent another email to this contact person, stating how valuable this program was with it's piece of color PT footage, and requesting it be made available on DVD, she did not reply at all - refusing to address my request, in essence.
Here's their website address -- good luck.
historytvdocumentaries.com
Posted By: Drew Cook | Posted on: Nov 14, 2007 - 5:52pm
Total Posts: 1306 | Joined: Oct 19, 2006 - 10:44am
Thanks!
If anything I wonder if I could get a petition going with some of the vets in my area - I can think of others (besides my grandfather) who would love to view this. There are a plethora of retired servicemen (and a few women) nearby. Living near an air force base does have its uses.
Thanks again for the information!
Jenni
Posted By: tngapch | Posted on: Nov 15, 2007 - 6:05am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
Jenni: I have a History Channel VHS called "PT-RAIDS". I'll take a look and see if it is the same one Drew is talking about.
Will
Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Nov 15, 2007 - 7:53am
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm
Jenni: I have three PT-themed shows released at various times by The History Channel, including PT RAIDS. There is some color footage in all of them, but the quality of the original footage is so poor that it is really impossible to draw much of a conclusion at to specific colors other than "gray" or "green". I guess that just reinforces the idea that we will never have a definitive answer as to what exact shades were used on some of the early boats.
I have seven or eight additional PT tapes; I'll check them when I get the chance. Interestingly enough, some of the best color reproduction seems to be in shots of the really early Ron 1 and 2 boats.
Will
Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Nov 18, 2007 - 10:48am
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm
FRANK;
FROM MAY 1943 ON PT 109 WAS NAVY GREEN. I HAVE COLOR PHOTOS OF PT 61 (TAKEN BY THEN PT 61 SKIPPER ENS. KEN PRESCOTT)AT SEARLESVILLE, RUSSELL ISLANDS, AND THE BOAT NEXT TO HER IS AN ELCO 80 FOOTER, THE COLOR OF BOTH BOATS IS THE SAME IN THE PHOTO(JFK'S SECOND BOAT, PT 59 WAS ALSO THE SAME COLOR). I ESTIMATE THE PHOTO TO HAVE BEEN TAKEN AROUND JUNE- JULY 1943, AS 109 DID PATROLS OUT OF THE RUSSELLS DURING THIS TIME FRAME BEFORE MOVING UP IN LATE JULY-EARLY AUGUST 1943 TO RENDOVA. I AM ALMOST POSITIVE(95%) THE BOAT IN THE PHOTO IS 109. SHE WAS THE ONLY RON TWO 80 FOOTER OPERATIONAL IN THIS AREA DURING THE TIME FRAME OF THE PHOTO. PLUS KEN HAS TOLD ME HE USUALLY MOORED NEXT TO JFK AND 109.
ANOTHER PHOTOGRAPHIC POINT, IN THE FAMOUS JFK IN THE COCKPIT PHOTO, IF YOU LOOK YOU WILL SEE THE CABIN OF AN ELCO 77 FOOTER IN THE BACKROUND. WELL IF YOU COMPARE THAT PHOTO, WITH MY COLOR ONES OF 61, AND NOTICE THINGS LIKE THE POSITION OF THE 77 FOOTER AS OPPOSED TO JFK'S 109(LOOK AT DECK FITTINGS, CABIN POSITION, ETC) YOU WILL COME TO THE CONCLUSION THAT PT 61 IS THAT BOAT IN THE BACKROUND OF THE JFK PHOTO. WITH THAT IN MIND, THE JFK PHOTO WAS TAKEN AT SEARLESVILLE, NOT TULAGI AS THE BOOK STATES. I AM CURRENTLY ON DEPLOYMENT AND THE PHOTOS ARE AT HOME
AS FOR HOBBY PAINTS, LOOK FOR FS 34102 IS CLOSE TO NAVY GREEN NG-5. TESTORS MODEL MASTER B-1713 /S-1913(B FOR BOTTLE/S FOR SPRAY. .
TAKE CARE AND HAPPY THANKSGIVING,
TED
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Nov 18, 2007 - 3:01pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
Will: Thanks again. It isn't so much to see the color of the boats as it is to have something that my grandfather would greatly enjoy. And the 149 was his boat, so that seemed an added bonus. 
I've sent an email to the lady mentioned in the post above and seem to be getting some sort of asssitance from her - doesn't seem to keen to help me but I keep pestering so I'm making a bit of headway.
Thanks again for the info - it is greatly appreciated!
Jenni
Posted By: tngapch | Posted on: Nov 19, 2007 - 6:49am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
AHOY THERE TED-
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THE DETAILED REPLY TO MY ORIGINAL QUESTION CONCERNING THE COLOR OF PT 109.
MANY THANKS ALSO FOR THE FS NUMBERS ON THE MODEL PAINTS AS WELL. WELL DONE!
FRANK RYCZEK, JR.
MODELER/FRIEND RON 10 PT-169 "ZEBRA SNAFU"
HIGH TIDES ALWAYS!
YOUR FRIEND THROUGH SCALE SHIP MODELING AND PT BOAT HISTORY!
Posted By: FRANK | Posted on: Nov 19, 2007 - 7:34am
Total Posts: 349 | Joined: Oct 7, 2007 - 2:09pm
Greetings Ted,
1st best of luck with your deployment wherever you may be. When you return we would love to see that photo. It may resolve one of our great PT mysteries.
Dave
David Waples
Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Nov 19, 2007 - 8:07pm
Total Posts: 1679 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm
Here's a site I found with what claims to be a photo of PT-109 prior to Kennedy. Guess what, no mast. For those of you who know me I've made this observation for some time now through previous known photos of this boat. Give it a look....
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.geocities.com/pt_king/PT109Tassafaronga2.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.geocities.com/pt_king/PT109-3.html&h=318&w=492&sz=33&hl=en&start=2&sig2=TOomsPvsXg-3zjatH757aQ&tbnid=OsNj3XBiH_A3jM:&tbnh=84&tbnw=130&ei=Zr9DR-aGL9DCiwHc0d2zCw&prev=/images%3Fq%3DPT-109%26ndsp%3D20%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26rls%3DGGLG,GGLG:2005-43,GGLG:en%26sa%3DN
David Waples
Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Nov 20, 2007 - 9:20pm
Total Posts: 1679 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm
David . . . .
Taking a quick look at the boat's armament configuration makes me believe that it's not the 109. The boat only has a forward torpedo tube on the front port side and what appears to be several depth charges or empty depth charge racks aft. Published photos of the 109 being shipped to the Pacific shows the 109 having four torpedo tubes with no depth charges. This is just an observance not a forgone conclusion.
Early photos of the 103, 105, 107, 108 operating in the Panama zone prior to shipment to the Solomons show the boats configured with forward torpedo tubes and aft depth charges and ammo lockers. Photos showing the boats rigged on transport ships heading for the Salomons (like the 109) and photos of the same boats operating in the Salomons, show four torpedo tubes in lieu of depth charges. It appears this group/squadron was reconfigured prior to heading out to the Pacific war zone.
A note of interest: Two of the actual Elco factory drawings show two typical 80 footer profiles, with the 103 labeled boat with aft depth charges while 109 labeled boat drawing with aft torpedo tubes.
Dick . . .
Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Nov 21, 2007 - 1:48pm
Total Posts: 1417 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm
Greetings Dick,
Thanks for the input. It might be interesting to reach out to the person who posted this web site to see why he believes this is the 109.
The arrangements on these boats are fascinating to me. The crews were very creative with what they had. The 109 is the only one I've seen at the time Kennedy had her that had dept charges. Photos I've seen of the 103 and 107 boat didn't have them and Mr. Keresey wrote me and said he didn't have them on the 105 either.
I'm anxious to see if Ted is able to get back to us with the photo he's referring to. A color photo from Kennedy's squadron would be huge and answer a lot of questions.
Dave
David Waples
Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Nov 21, 2007 - 6:32pm
Total Posts: 1679 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm
Dear Dick and Dave,
I'm Gene Kirkland, owner of the site in question. To comment on your replies and queries:
I'm currently in the process of researching the PT squadrons that fought at Guadalcanal; some of the fruits of that research I have posted on my website, while others I have filed away for use in a manuscript that I'm writing. As to why I believe the photo in question is of PT 109, I offer in evidence notations from PT 109's log. (I'm not at home at the moment, so most of this is from memory--when I get home, I will consult my files for confirmation.)
At any rate, the first boats of Squadron Two--including the 109--arrived at Tulagi in November 1942. At this time, only two Elco 80-footers arrived with the squadron--the 109 and PT 110. The 110 was rammed by PT 59 during their approach to Tulagi; the damage from this ramming would leave the 110 out of commission until early January 1943. This left PT 109 as the only operable Elco 80-footer in the Guadalcanal-Tulagi area from 25 November 1942 until the arrival of MTB Div 16 (PT's 111-112 of Ron Two and PT's 115, 116, 123, and 124 of Ron Six) on 31 December 1942.
Now, to the PT in the picture. This photo was taken from the crusier USS Pensacola on the morning of 1 December 1942, after the Battle of Tassafaronga. In that battle, the crusier USS Northampton was sunk, while cruisers Pensacola, Minneapolis, and New Orleans were heavily damaged. PT 109's log states that the boat was called out for rescue duty about 1.30 am and had picked up 94 of Northampton's men out of the water that morning. Remember, PT 110 is in dry-dock and out of comission at this time...and the only other force of Elco 80-footers won't arrive until the end of the month.
Re: 109's torpedo tubes. After arrival at Tulagi (again, according to the boat's log) but before the Tassafaronga action, the 109 had her two aft tubes removed. The tubes were not replaced until sometime in March 1943. I have no answer as to why this was done, just the notations in the boat's log. If any one is interested, I will be glad to scan and e-mail passages of the log (which was copied by me at the National Archives a few years ago) to anyone who asks. I mostly copied portions of the log from July 1942 (when 109 was placed in service) to April 1943 when JFK took over. This is my primary source material for the PT 109 article currently on my website.
All the best,
Gene K
Posted By: comcardiv1 | Posted on: Nov 24, 2007 - 7:09pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
Thanks for the background on the photo. What caught my interest while looking at this photo was that the mast was missing. Looking at the 109's sister ships during this period they all sported their traditional A frame masts that all the early 80 footers had prior to radar installation. It seems clear from all of the 109 photos I've seen that the 109 lost her mast at some point. This photo would indicate that this took place well before Kennedy took command.
I'm interested to see the color photo mentioned earlier. I have a 109 model ready to paint and I'm tempted to hold off until I have a peek.
Standing by patiently.
Dave
David Waples
Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Nov 25, 2007 - 6:30pm
Total Posts: 1679 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm
David,
I think the mast is able to be folded down. Maybe rather than being removed it was just folded down in that photo. Pretty simple I know but that is what was most likely the case. Jerry
Jerry Gilmartin
Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Nov 25, 2007 - 7:34pm
Total Posts: 1472 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm
Hi Jerry,
Yes, these masts could be folded. You can see it in the folded position on the 109 when it was transported to Panama. However once JFK had the 109 it was definately gone. There is one photo of the boat taken broadside and it is clear there is no mast, folded or otherwise. It is not evident in the few other 109 photos taken at this time. I just thought it was interesting that in this new photo there is no mast. Another reason I'm interested to see the color photo.
It was not unusual for these masts to be removed but it is not common to see this in photos. I've only seen one 80' Elco without radar other than the 109 boat and that is in Frank Johnson's book on page 129. If you have this book note the national ensign in the post behind the cockpit instead of on a mast. Every other non radar equiped boat has the mast in the upright position.
Dave
David Waples
Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Nov 25, 2007 - 8:07pm
Total Posts: 1679 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm
To make an educated guess on the subject, it was possible that PT 109, probably PT 110, as well as the boats of MTB Div. 16 mentioned in my earlier reply were stripped of all unnecessary weight upon arrival at Tulagi...and one of the items deemed unecessary was their masts.
There's a photo on my website of PT 116 running at speed off Tulagi, taken in July 1943; this boat also is not sporting a mast. I also have a photo of some of the early Ron Six officers standing around the cockpit of PT 124--and the mast is gone from this boat as well.
Gene K.
Posted By: comcardiv1 | Posted on: Nov 25, 2007 - 9:41pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
With Radar in its infancy stages, it is possible that PT 109 had its Mast removd to make way for Radar at some point. I find it hard to believe that it was a weight issue, being as the Mast was made of light weight construction. Maybe the Mast gave way and the boat was set to have it repaired at some point. Unless you speak with someone from the boat, most of what we say here will be guessing.
Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Nov 25, 2007 - 10:11pm
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am
Gene & Frank,
Looking at the logbook notes from the Guadalcanal PT's, for PT109 there is a note Dec 18-22 1942 that a radar set was installed. I had read somewhere (can't remember where now) that prior to the behive style radar seen on PT-149 that there was a failed radar experiment with the PT's. It could be that the 109 was one of those boats that had it installed and then removed. There is certainly no sign of radar in any known photo of the 109. But that would be a very good explanation as to why there is no mast on this boat.
Gene, copies of the log book would be great to share with the community. And by the way, thanks for putting all this information together.
Dave
David Waples
Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Nov 26, 2007 - 5:13am
Total Posts: 1679 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm
Hi David,
I have posted this before, it is straight out of Gene Kirklands website from Chapter 5 of "The unknown history of the PT109". I also have another manuscript written by Bud Larsen the PT109's CO/XO which confirms that PT109 did indeed have an aircraft radar set taken from a PBY. According to Larsen the Power supply was unreliable and the antennae were mounted up on the bow, and the Tokyo Express passed right in front of them and they never saw anything on their radar. But in both of these accounts it was done in March 1943 not in December 1942. I hope this is useful! Jerry
The following is from Gene Kirklands website "PT KING":
"As it turned out, this would be Larson’s last combat patrol in the Solomons; the Squadron Two boats were pulled out of the Russells in March 1943, shortly after Larson’s moonlight escapade, and were relieved by boats of Squadron Six. Squadron Two returned to Tulagi to have their boats overhauled; the original PT base was now fast becoming a quiet backwater of the war, save for the occasional nuisance raid from Washing Machine Charlie or Louie the Louse. One of these raids, on the night of March 5, “the Louse” dropped four bombs on Sesapi. The first three landed in the water while the fourth hit the PT operations shack, killing one officer and three enlisted men and seriously wounding another officer and another enlisted man. The hull of PT 118 moored nearby was riddled with shrapnel. Some of 109’s days in March were spent in dry dock; her mufflers were changed, and the boat’s bottom was scraped of the green marine growth that accumulated there. [blue]Another test involving a radar set was made on March 15, but this one proved to be a bust; the set’s power supply was quite unreliable and was prone to fail at any given moment, and it was removed shortly afterwards.[/blue] On April 1st XO Sam King was transferred to another boat; replacing him was Leonard J. Thom, a big, blond haired native of Sandusky, Ohio. Described as “a capable and warmhearted giant, who looked like a Viking who had lost his way and sailed into the South Pacific by mistake”, “Lenny” Thom personified the new breed of officer coming into the torpedo-boat corps at that time—former collegiate athletes that possessed the rough, tough, robust physiques to match; and 109’s new exec still looked like the football player he had been before the war when he played left tackle at Ohio State in 1939 and 1940. "
Jerry Gilmartin
Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Nov 26, 2007 - 7:29am
Total Posts: 1472 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm
Hi Jerry,
Thanks for the information. When I was reviewing the log excerpts from PT-109 on Gene's web site there was a notation that for a week in December they were installing radar on the 109. I'm not sure if it is the unit you're referring to or not. Certainly they were trying to take advantage of this technology and trying to use a system from a PBY isn't at all surprising. I'm trying to imagine what a radar from a PBY would look like on the bow of a PT Boat. What a modeling subject that might be!
Gene's log book does not cover March, 43 so perhaps he'll be able to shed some ight on this. Gene, do you have any information to add?
Thanks everyone
Dave
David Waples
Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Nov 26, 2007 - 8:31pm
Total Posts: 1679 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm
Hi David,
If you go to Gene Kirkland's PT King website again, under "Articles" there is a section called "Early PT Radar" and it has photos of PT28 up in Dutch Harbor, Alaska with the same type of radar that PT109 had installed on its bow. Those 3 railroad track antennae mounted on PT28's Charthouse were mounted on the PT109 bow according to the transcripts I have by Bud Larsen. I must commend Gene for having posted these fantastic photos. Thanks Gene! OK well there you go.
Jerry
PT658 Portland OR
Jerry Gilmartin
Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Nov 26, 2007 - 9:35pm
Total Posts: 1472 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm
Thanks for pointing that out. I had a completely different vision based on photos of PBY's equipped with radar. No wonder it didn't work, they used the wrong antenna! :-)
So if there is evidence that there was a radar intallation in December and later again in March, are we looking at two different configurations?
Actually this would make a great modeling subject. Drop the rear torpedo tubes and add these three radar antennas on the bow. A very unique 109 model for sure.
Dave
David Waples
Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Nov 27, 2007 - 5:22am
Total Posts: 1679 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm
I don't know why it seems to come as such a shock to some folks that the 109, as well as other early 80' Elcos, didn't have their "A"-frame masts up or even on board in the forward combat areas. Although that nifty little mast kind of completed the "look" of the boats, it could also certainly be considered as completely superfluous and unnecessary to the function of the boat in combat. The savings in weight would have been minimal -- the masts and their bracings were probably just "in the way." Their removal would have facilitated better movement around the boat topsides, particularly over the day room canopy.
To me, the period photographic evidence is rather obvious that some of the early 103-class boats in the Solomons, including the 109, didn't have their masts up.
In Donovan's "PT 109" there is a photo of seven PTs in Tulagi Harbor, four 77' Elcos and three 80' Elcos, and not one of the three 80-footers has a mast up. The photo of the 109 running at sea in the same book, a larger version of which was published in Robert Ballard's "Collision With History," clearly shows no mast up on the boat. Gene Kirkland has mentioned the photo of the mast-less PT 116 running at sea on his website, and there are other examples.
While I'm on the subject of Gene Kirkland, let me say that not only does Gene have a great PT website, he is also an excellent researcher and writer (as are others who post on this site, of course). Gene, as he mentioned, is in the process of writing a manuscript on the history of the early PTs at Guadalcanal. I've been privileged to read some of his writing on this, and it is absolutely fascinating. Very, very good stuff, and historically important, too. We PT buffs will eat it up. I hope he finds a publisher, because it will make a great book!
Ted, I hope your deployment goes well, and, like Dave and others, hope you can eventually post those color photos you have of the 61 (and maybe, the 109 alongside). As you and I discussed previously, I realized the 61 was the 77' Elco to port alongside the 109 in those famous "JFK in the cockpit" photos when I saw the photo of the 61 published in Ballard's "Collision With History," obviously taken from the foredeck of the 109 at the same time as the other photos. We'd all love to see those color photos, brother. It just may solve the question of the 109's color once and for all!
Posted By: Drew Cook | Posted on: Nov 27, 2007 - 6:21am
Total Posts: 1306 | Joined: Oct 19, 2006 - 10:44am
I think at this point I am getting a Headache about all this talk on PT 109. I have listened for years about PT 109 and her different colors of grey and or green. You guys know that I have a passion for PT Boats, so I know this may come as a surprise when I say this, "MOVE ON TO ANOTHER SUBJECT".
We are beating this subject into the ground. My goodness, would you really be wrong if you made PT 109 in Grey or Green and would anyone outside of this message board know the difference or really care. I understand the importance of trying to be Historically correct when doing a model and the ones I have in my Exhibit are beautiful. Are they the correct color? From what I was told yes. Are they exact to the real ones? Maybe not. It is difficult to match any PT BOAT to what it was 60 years ago, so you guys that keep asking about PT 109's color, PICK ONE, you won't be wrong. I know you guys are going to beat me up on this, and I am not being snotty, but PLEASE, there are other PT Boats that did more for the PT Boat Service then PT 109, how about making them, or getting the colors of another boat that made a difference. I do not mean to be negative. It is not intended to be that way. I am just sick of PT 109. If Kennedy did not become President PT 109 would never have been mentioned. Sorry guys, I can feel the daggers headed my way...........
Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Nov 27, 2007 - 7:36am
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am
No sweat, Frank. I hear your frustration and acknowledge it. I'm sure others feel as you do, also.
Obviously, the 109 is the most famous WWII PT boat, regardless of its combat record (or lack of), so obviously, it will be continually discussed - ad infinitum.
I'm sure similar discussions (and frustrations) have taken place among aviation and modeling historians and enthusiasts regarding the exact colors and markings of President Bush's WWII Avenger torpedo bomber, so...
Posted By: Drew Cook | Posted on: Nov 27, 2007 - 9:18am
Total Posts: 1306 | Joined: Oct 19, 2006 - 10:44am
Hi Frank and everyone else,
No daggers coming from me and I would hope that they come from nobody on this forum.
Here's my story. My initial interest in PT's came when my dad took me to the movies to see PT-109. From that day forward I was hooked on PT's and the story of the 109 and her crew. You have to admit it's a great story about a great man and a great crew.
My interest in PT's and especially the 109 only grew after I read Donovan's book. Over the years I probably built the Revell kit a couple of times. I watched what others had done and wondered if anyone was getting it right. Then I started collecting books on PT's. My copy of Frank Johnson's book has completely come apart. I can't begin to guess how many times I've been through that thing studying the pictures and reading the text.
I came across a Bluejacket kit of the 103 class Elco and picked that up. About the same time I read Mr. Keresey's book PT-105 and decided that this boat would be the 105. I exchanged a number of letters with Mr. Keresey and I think when done I'm going to have a very special model. This project stalled when it came to decide what color to paint the boat. Mr. Keresey said his boat was "battleship gray". Experts told me it was various shades of green. Then what shade of green? You would think that there would be a color photo out there somewhere that would solve the mystery. So far I've yet to see one and I'm hoping that we're about to see it soon as discussed earlier in this thread. To me it's worth the wait to make sure I get this right, or as right as the body of evidence out there will provide.
I've been posting modeling tips for the 109 for a long time. I had no intention of building this boat but I had written so much about it to help other modelers that I decided to put up or shut up. So I built what I think is a very accurate PT-109 at the time of her sinking. Call me crazy but it's very important for me to as I said, get this right.
Now I have PT-596 on the shelf for a future project. I'm collecting bits and pieces to upgrade her and I'm leaning towards an Atlantic version of this boat just to do something different. In the next week or so I'm hoping to be able to visit with one of the officers from PT-115.
So yes like many others I'm obsessed with the 109. But I'm also very interested in other boats as well and I'm really enjoying uncovering the mystery and sharing what I've learned with other modelers and people who have interest in these wonderful boats.
Dave
PS. I don't know who makes these little happy faces but I would love to see one giving a snappy salute.
David Waples
Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Nov 27, 2007 - 7:15pm
Total Posts: 1679 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm
Hello message board!
Frank, as usual, I agree with you. I think we should be talking about Higgins Boats mostly, especially since I have a prejudice for these 78 foot PT boats (like PT658) of which no decent off-the-shelf model exists. (After all, they are much faster, maneuverable, and better looking!) I wish somebody would make a model (similar to the Italieri PT596 model) of a 78 foot Higgins! Oh well, I guess I will just have to go down and work some more on restoring the real thing...PT658. We are supposed to take her out of the water in December to do some much needed hull repairs. I feel that everyone is drawn to the PT109 because thats where all the publicity is, (what with a 1st run movie and a US president, no less) and not to mention 90% of all PT boat model kits are of the 109 boat. But you are right, there were many other PT boats in the war that actually were in the thick of things and would make a great subject for a model. Like Bulkleys PT41 or Kelly's PT28? in the Phillipines sinking that Jap cruiser!. Or LCDR Murray Prestons boat, the one he was on in Wasile Bay Halmahera and was awarded the MOH for rescuing a downed pilot. Or how about some of the boats in the Med fighting against the Germans? Like when PT205 liberated a town all by itself? (Bastia I think) Or Hal Nugents PT208? that ran into a German F-Lighter where his binoculars were shot in two and was saved by his boat losing power and drifting in the fog while the Germans shot at each other in the confusion? Or maybe some of the boats in RON13 up in the Aleutians? How about my freind Dick Lowe's boat PT323 in the Phillipines that got cut in two by a Kamikaze on Dec 10, 1944? Or another Kamikaze victim, PT300? How about PT321 shooting all its weapons up under the bow into the bridge of the Jap battleship Kirishima at the battle of Surigao straights? All of these would be great subjects for a good modeler, and not just good ole PT109. So yes, I agree we do focus on PT109 a lot, but it is understandable due to the large amount of publicity that boat has always had. I guess we just need to move on but I am glad you brought it up, Frank. Im not mad Im just expressing my own opinion. Jerry
Jerry Gilmartin
Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Nov 27, 2007 - 8:48pm
Total Posts: 1472 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm
I'm not sure we'll see anything other than another version of an 80' Elco out of Italeri. They seem to be bogged down on their 1/35 S boat because of production problems.
The best scales for these boats would be either 1/48 or 1/35. In both cases there are enough after market materials to customize. I wouldn't be surprised to see Trumpeter do something like that. They build some interesting subjects that nobody else seems to want to touch. But if we're building a wish list for future kits here's mine....
77' Elco. Wouldn't PT-59 be a great subject. I know it's another JFK boat but what an interesting subject. That boat is bristling with guns.
Higgins. Mid to late war model would be another great subject. PT-313 would be a good choice. It's a nice Atlantic based boat.
Special request. A 1/35 Thunderbolt gun for my 596 kit would be terrific. Either that or a good set of plans so I could scratch build one. Maybe Italeri will put out a PT-559 which sank a German Corvette by torpedo.
I could go on all night. Lots of possible subjects for sure... but please... no Huckins boats. :-)
Don't hold your breath though. I'm not sure the demand is there. White Ensign Models hardly had any takers on their offer to build after market parts for the Italeri kit. It's very expensive to put these big kits out on the market.
Dave
David Waples
Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Nov 27, 2007 - 9:24pm
Total Posts: 1679 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm
Some years ago, I wrote a draft of a letter to Revell in an attempt to convince them to make a 1/72 scale 77' Elco PT 59, with extra parts to customize the boat into a PT 59/60/61 gunboat.
The angle of the pitch was to market it as a two-in-one kit, one that could be built as either a "Guadalcanal Veteran" stock 77-footer or a "JFK's Second Command" gunboat. The kit would be a companion to Revell's venerable old 1/72nd scale PT 109, which has been in existence since 1963.
After finding out how incredibly expensive it was (and is) to develop, manufacture, and market a new plastic model kit, I kind of gave up hope that Revell would ever give my idea any serious consideration, and I never sent the letter.
If any new PT kit were to be put out, my vote would be for a Guadalcanal-era 77' Elco (sorry, 78' Higgins fans - although an accurate 1/72 scale 78' Higgins would be nice).
Posted By: Drew Cook | Posted on: Nov 28, 2007 - 1:36am
Total Posts: 1306 | Joined: Oct 19, 2006 - 10:44am
Drew,
We've probably talked about this before but Frank's Mosquito Boat Hobbies makes a pretty nice 1/20 scale 77' Elco. You can order as PT-65 or PT-59. He has some photos on his web site of finished models. That's a pretty big model though unless you're planning on doing R/C.
I'ts probably worth suggesting to Trumpeter again.
Dave
David Waples
Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Nov 28, 2007 - 5:00am
Total Posts: 1679 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm
The color issue of the 109 has jumped to a new posting about 3 pages ahead titled "Color Photos". There you will find what appear to be photos containing the 109 boat in color.
Dave
David Waples
Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Jan 4, 2008 - 5:07am
Total Posts: 1679 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm
She was Tropical Green..............
You've got a question, I've got an answer.
Posted By: TGarth Connelly | Posted on: Jan 4, 2008 - 3:33pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
I don't disagree that the boat was painted "Tropical Green". As I understand it this is a color created in the field by mixing certain tints. John Snuder can better explain how the formula was mixed. Looking at the photos in the "Color Pictures" post this color looks different than the product WEM sells as Tropical Green. However if you take that tropical green and darken it with black or maybe better yet dark gray, you come very close to the pictures in these color photos.
Dave
David Waples
Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Jan 4, 2008 - 10:15pm
Total Posts: 1679 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm
GOOD GOD. PAINT THE DAM BOAT ALREADY. SHE WAS GREEN SHE WAS BLUE SHE WAS RED SHE WAS BLACK, GET OVER IT AND PICK A SADE. THERE MUST BE MORE TO TALK ABOUT THEN THE COLOR OF PT 109. IF YOUR OFF A TOUCH AND IT IS TOO GREEN OR NOT ENOUGH GREEN, WHO THE HELL CARES. AS I SAID IN AN EARLIER POST, NO ONE EXCEPT YOU MODELERS CAN TELL THE DIFFERENCE OR REALLY CARES. STOP BEING SO CRAZY ABOUT THIS. THIS IS NOT ROCKET SCIENTISIT STUFF. THE COLOR PICTURES JUST PUT ON THIS SITE SHOULD END THIS CONVERSATION FOR ALL ABOUT THE COLOR OF PT 109. NOW GET TO MIXING YOUR COLORS AND PAINT PAINT PAINT.
Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Jan 5, 2008 - 5:22am
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am
You know, guys.....There probably will never be a "right" shade for any model of the boats which were Out In The Area; weather, saltwater, length of exposure to the sun, vageries of local paint mixes and methods of application (especially in the early days) - combine these with the state-of-the-art of color photography in those days and I don't see any way of getting the "absolutely perfect match".
Will
Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Jan 5, 2008 - 5:55am
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm
Dave,
That's a GREAT point. I agree with you 100%.
Will, you are also correct as well. But, you might find that some historians - not me though - will tell you that if a regulations says that a boat was this color or that color, then you MUST paint your model in that color no matter what and that you're not interested in having a terribly accurate model.
I say, use the regulation as a guide, and then do what you think is correct. Yeah, the sun, weather and wear and tear DOES have an effect on a paint job and its hue. It's only logical ...
And another thing? Forward bases might not have had the correct paint for a scheme and paints might have been cobbled together to get a close enough match. But, I'm sure that they'd be admonished by some historians for not being accurate.
Garth
You've got a question, I've got an answer.
Posted By: TGarth Connelly | Posted on: Jan 5, 2008 - 7:07am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
The bottom line is that I put a lot of hours into this project. It's important for me to get it right. I value the information I get from the vets that take their time to share their stories and memories, and historians such uas Al Ross and John Snyder who have spent a lot of time sorting this stuff out.
We now have what may be color evidence of what PT-109 looked like. It's not going to get any better than that. Are we going to get an exact match? No. But if we have a record based on good quality color photos. For me, I'm going to take the time to get it right. Getting the details as correct as possible honors the vets who servced on these fine boats. From a selfish point of view it also gives me great satisfaction to know that I gave it my best shot.
It's time to paint.
Dave
David Waples
Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Jan 5, 2008 - 7:16am
Total Posts: 1679 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm
Hello there everyone-
It is my understanding that I opened a big can of "worms" when I first posted "WHAT IS THE TRUE COLOR OF PT-109".
However I was just trying to seek out some information from those in the "know", that's all!
Frank, first and formost, I thought that this board was for those "seeking" out information on the subject and history of something near and dear to all who use this board as a refference point, either historians or like myself, scale modelers. I understand that you are a knowing fellow and monitor this board from time to time and a lot of us look up to you, as do I.
Lately, I have noticed a lot of negative remarks about the color of the 109. What with over 1300 folks looking at the post and with over 40 responses to that post, I sure do feel that it is in fact an issue that is important to a lot of folks out there.
Frank Ryczek, Jr.
Modeler/friend of Ron 10
HIGH TIDES ALWAYS!
YOUR FRIEND THROUGH SCALE SHIP MODELING AND PT BOAT HISTORY!
Posted By: FRANK | Posted on: Jan 5, 2008 - 8:31am
Total Posts: 349 | Joined: Oct 7, 2007 - 2:09pm
I certainly knew full well that I was going to take a little heat for my Negative remarks on this subject. First, let me say that as a rule I do not come on the message board to be negative. I like many of you out here have a passion for the History of the PT Boats. I do not have to prove that, as I am sure you all know about my Exhibit and the work I do.
I should have realizd that many of you modelers do your best to get it right the first time. Being Historically correct is very important and I should have been a bit moe sympathectic to what you and others were trying to accomplish. Doing this for so many years, I have had that burning question in my head about the color of PT 109, like she was the only PT BOAT in the Navy. I guess I just got tired of the banter on a subject that was being beaten into the ground for so long. I now understand that like me, there are others out there that have the same love for the boats and their exploits during WWII. Above all, I should have known that doing things right the first time is the only way to go. I have several models in my Exhibit that were built by guys that take the time to research them and when finished are pretty sure they are about as accurate as they can be.
In closing, let me state that I sorry for sending out such a negative response on this message board. Thanks to those of you who gave me a kick in the pants, I NEEDED IT.............
Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Jan 5, 2008 - 10:26am
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am
Dave,
Ah, using vets as references? To historians (not me by the way), that's a mortal sin.
They claim that veterans aren't good sources for data. I disagree. Whereas it is true that their memories do fade and mingle into each other as they get older, I have found that some of their memories are dead on and can be verified through photographs and other documentation.
But, I've been heavily criticized for advocating the use of veterans as information sources ...
But, what do I know?
Garth
You've got a question, I've got an answer.
Posted By: TGarth Connelly | Posted on: Jan 5, 2008 - 10:54am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
No worries Frank. I can't help being anal about my models. It's just the way I am. I love these boats because so much was done to them in the field. There were so many interesting field modifications done. I didn't even want to do the 109 because it has been done to death. But in my opinion it hadn't been done correct yet. So that's why I'm stuck on it and determined to get it done correctly.
As I mentioned before I have 3 different boats in the pipeline and I just completed a 1/700 scale diorama of 2 80' Elco boats at full speed. That nearly killed me by the way but I was very pleased with the way they came out.
Garth, you'll like this. After I finish an airplane to regain my sanity I'm doing a 1/700 scale APA, the USS Geneva for my wife's Uncle. He served on this boat in 1945. Fortunately there's a lot of good references for this ship so it's pretty easy to finish. But he insists that the markings on the boat were "APA 86". Well, the photos all show "PA 86". The Navy dropped the first "A". I'm going to have to bring the photos to show him. But that's how human memory goes. What he might lack in accuracy is made up for in experience. He's shared many stories on how the boat functioned. I swear if we could get our hands on an APA and a Higgins boat he could lower it to the water, drive it, and repair it when we returned.
At the end of the day you have to gather the evidence and formulate your conclusions as best you can and get'er done.
Now somebody tell me about these darn torpedo covers. :-)
Dave
David Waples
Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Jan 5, 2008 - 3:27pm
Total Posts: 1679 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm
Indeed, indeed. Exactly my point. One MUST take everything in and then, do what they think is correct.
You've got a question, I've got an answer.
Posted By: TGarth Connelly | Posted on: Jan 6, 2008 - 8:19am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
I do not believe there was any standard color for the PTs in New Guinea. Most were a "camo" style with two shades of green, or black and green. The green tints were made by mixing with whatever paint could be found. It is possible that no two were identical in camo pattern or shades of green. I also doubt that a color picture could be relied upon for the actual colors. Film may not capture the true color, and color can be lost in printing. A picture, color or black and white, could disclose the pattern
My suggestion would be to find two shades of green that you like, one dark and one light, and start painting.
Posted By: QM | Posted on: Jan 8, 2008 - 12:41pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
My point exactly. No two boats were alike, and many were painted in the Combat Zone with whatever green paint they could muster from the Supply Boys. Even those wonderful color pictures that we were so happy to see, could in fact be a different shade then what is being seen in the final print. I had said all along that whatever shade of green used to try and match the boats in the War Zone would not be wrong. Although I can fully understand doing as much research as possible can make or break a model, there comes a time when you must just pick a color and start painting the boats. There are many guys out here that have done enough boats to give you the almost as close colors as one can get. I hope when you are done painting, you will show us what you have come up with. I am sure it will be just fine.....
Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Jan 8, 2008 - 1:43pm
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am
I failed to mention that the deck, charthouse and dayroom were painted a solid color, usually a dark green.[:-devil-:]
Posted By: QM | Posted on: Jan 8, 2008 - 6:33pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
I'm very close to what I hope is the right mixture. I'm going to shoot some samples and then go for it. I will certainly share the finished results with you guys unless I really mess it up somehow.
Dave
David Waples
Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Jan 8, 2008 - 6:41pm
Total Posts: 1679 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm
Like I've quoted, what seems like a long time ago now, from Robert J. Donovan's "PT 109 - John F. Kennedy in World War II:"
"For camouflage in the waterways among the islands the boat was painted forest green."
Wayne's posted photo of the boat alongside PT 61 in the inlet at Searlesville certainly shows it to have been a very dark green in color.
A historical mystery solved, once and for all!
Posted By: Drew Cook | Posted on: Jan 8, 2008 - 8:01pm
Total Posts: 1306 | Joined: Oct 19, 2006 - 10:44am
There is a long story involved-but I actually met the Capt of PT 361-he was stationed with the 109 for a bit and he recalls the boat was painted Green.
More on the 361 to follow.
Posted By: VCR | Posted on: Mar 3, 2008 - 2:48pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
VCR,
Was the skipper of PT 361 a veteran who had previously been in combat in the Solomons?
The reason I ask is that the official history of the PT boats, "At Close Quarters," has PT 361 as a member of MTB Squadron 27, which was commissioned (in the States) on July 23, 1943, with the 361 itself being "placed in service" on July 27, 1943 -- hardly in time to have been "stationed with" PT 109, which was rammed and sunk on August 2, 1943.
Posted By: Drew Cook | Posted on: Mar 6, 2008 - 7:04am
Total Posts: 1306 | Joined: Oct 19, 2006 - 10:44am
Your right-Randel said he was stationed with JFK and we talked about the boats-I assumed it was the 109.
I have pictures of the 361 in:
New Guinea
Subic Bay
Phillipine Islands
Solomon Islands
polou Islands
Manilla bay
My comment was not meant to be anything other than info received from a conversation. I never did the math on the years and or boat numbers.
Posted By: VCR | Posted on: Mar 6, 2008 - 4:09pm
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Actually what strikes me as a bit weird is that Randel went on to talk about JFK being stationed for a bit with Ron 27, but after giving myself a refresher on history-was JFK even given another boat after the wreck?
I'd hate to think I was in some way duped, just doesn't seem like something Randel would do?
Posted By: VCR | Posted on: Mar 6, 2008 - 4:16pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
VCR,
Yes, JFK was given command of another boat after the 109 was sunk.
He was made skipper of PT 59, a 77' Elco that along with PTs 60 and 61 (also 77' Elcos) were being converted into gunboats to deal with the increasing Japanese troop and resupply barge traffic among the islands.
JFK oversaw the conversion during September of 1943, which consisted of the removal of the torpedo tubes and stern 20mm gun, and the installation of 40mm guns on the stern and foredeck, six single .50 caliber guns behind armor shields (three along each side), radar, and some additional armor plating around the cockpit and other areas of the boat.
After the refit, JFK commanded PT 59 (or "GB 1" - Gunboat 1, as it was sometimes referred to), for about two months before he left the combat area, with the boat's most notable action being the rescue of the remnants of a Marine patrol off Choiseul Island while under fire on November 2, 1943, three months to the day after PT 109 was lost.
I read somewhere that the 59 under JFK was painted green, and since the 109 was green, I've thought most boats in that area must have been painted green. But since we now have photographic evidence that the 61 was gray in July of '43 (before her refit to the gunboat configuration, granted)...?
Posted By: Drew Cook | Posted on: Mar 7, 2008 - 6:56am
Total Posts: 1306 | Joined: Oct 19, 2006 - 10:44am
Maybe that makes a bit more sense-I have a picture of ron27 lined up with a note that they were fitted as gunboats and a note for the radar masts.
Thank you for the clarification-I feel better
Posted By: VCR | Posted on: Mar 7, 2008 - 5:31pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
Just in case this is helpful, I have spoken to LCDR (then LT) Russ Hamachek, who was CO of PT150 and is one of our Save the PT Boat (PT658) crewmembers and benefactors. After his tour on PT150 he was sent back to the PT training base in Miami FLA for training to become a Squadron Commander. He did become the Squadron Commander of RON39. During that time, I think 3 to 5 months (late 43 and early 44) he was working in Miami with JFK and 2 other senior LT's, who were all being trained together to become Squadron Commanders of new PT Squadrons. Russ said that JFK had this really nice convertable (a Packard? I think) and he would go out on the town with a lot of the PT Boaters in Miami to enjoy the nightlife. He was there with Russ until JFK was called up to Bethesda Naval Hospital to get his back looked at since his back pain was pretty severe. Once at Bethesda, the Navy Doctors classified him as unable to continue service and so JFK was Medically Discharged shortly after that. Maybe those boats you are talking about were in Miami at the training base at the time, and were painted Green. I am pretty sure most of the Elco boats stopped in Miami for at least some short time to conduct training as a unit before going overseas. I am proposing that there is a possibility for their paths to have crossed while JFK was assigned to an entire Squadron of boats during the training as its CO. As an aside, it seems to me that it is pretty common to hear from PT boaters that many claim in some way to be connected to JFK. Association with him has obtained some type of magical quality it seems in the PT Boat circles. I think I heard Dick Keresay (PT105 CO) quoted as saying at a PT Boats Inc reunion/convention that if all the guys that now claim to have been involved in rescuing JFK and the crew of PT 109 were actually there, there would have been 50 boats involved instead of 2 or 3 (or something to that effect). But there you have it. Also from reading this message board, it is amazing how many times I have read people claiming they have some type of connection to JFK, and then when you check into it does not pan out. Sorry if I seem jaded, but this subject is very well worn and maybe I have become a little incredulous when I hear something like that.
Jerry PT658 Portland Oregon
Jerry Gilmartin
Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Mar 8, 2008 - 7:56pm
Total Posts: 1472 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm
Jerry, I appreciate the information, Like I said, I was talking to a vet-and he spun a tale about JFK, the boat color came up because at the time, I loved PTs but all the info I had was from scrapes I could get in books ww2 and Mc Kales Navy-this all transpired 9+ years ago.
Posted By: VCR | Posted on: Mar 12, 2008 - 4:17pm
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