The PT Boat Forum
http://www.ptboatforum.com/cgi-bin/MB2/netboard.cgi
» Forum Category: PT Boats of WWII
http://www.ptboatforum.com/cgi-bin/MB2/netboard.cgi?cid=101&fct=showf
» Forum Name: PT Boats - General
http://www.ptboatforum.com/cgi-bin/MB2/netboard.cgi?fct=gotoforum&cid=101&fid=102
» Topic:
PT 515 Cherbourg
http://www.ptboatforum.com/cgi-bin/MB2/netboardr.cgi?cid=101&fid=102&tid=4771
Hi, last week I happened across a pic of PT 515 (if I read the number correctly) with a jeep strapped to its foredeck. I assume the location is the port of Cherbourg 1944. Does anyone know the story behind this jeep ? I wonder if jeeps were normally allocated to PT squadrons ? I found the pic here :
[url]http://www.aheroamongmillions.com/[/url]
I also wonder about the airfoil wind deflectors installed on Ron 35 PT boats. What if any was the advantage of these over normal wind screens ?
Thanks in advance.
Regards,
Arjan
Posted By: Arjan Wiskerke | Posted on: Dec 22, 2018 - 12:35pm
Total Posts: 162 | Joined: Dec 22, 2018 - 12:04pm
Not sure this is Cherbourg. Think it may be when they were still in England; Portland?
Charlie
Posted By: 29navy | Posted on: Dec 24, 2018 - 6:30am
Total Posts: 600 | Joined: Dec 28, 2006 - 3:02pm
Hi Charlie, you may be right. After all the Germans carried out extensive demolitions in the port before they left Cherbourg.. So the port in question may well have been in England (Portland, Portsmouth) or perhaps even Rosneath in Scotland. Navsource has an interesting pic of PT 515 and in its caption it is mentioned the boat may have been carrying spares to a forward area. The large object strapped to the foredeck in this particular pic looks like a bench or something . The pic is of an earlier date though :
[url]http://www.navsource.org/archives/12/05515.htm[/url]
[image]http://www.navsource.org/archives/12/120551502.jpg[/image]
Regards,
Arjan
Posted By: Arjan Wiskerke | Posted on: Dec 24, 2018 - 6:51am
Total Posts: 162 | Joined: Dec 22, 2018 - 12:04pm
The photo was taken in Portsmouth. They took the jeep to Cherbourg for transportation purposes..
TED OUT!
.
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Dec 24, 2018 - 10:24pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
The photo was taken in Portsmouth. They took the jeep to Cherbourg for transportation purposes..
TED OUT!
.
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Dec 24, 2018 - 10:24pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
Much obliged Ted ! I'm going to make a 1/35 model of PT 515 with its remarkable cargo. Merry Christmas and best wishes to all of you for the new year
[:-cheers-:]
Arjan
Posted By: Arjan Wiskerke | Posted on: Dec 24, 2018 - 11:28pm
Total Posts: 162 | Joined: Dec 22, 2018 - 12:04pm
Arjan;
MERRY CHRISTMAS!!
Those boxes aft Port and Starboard are additional 40MM ready service lockers, just like the two forward are dedicated to the 20MM.
The "bench" looking thing, I have seen on a few England based boats.
PT 515 and PT 518 RON 35 Portland Bill June or July 1944.
Take care,
TED
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Dec 25, 2018 - 1:46pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
Thanks a lot for posting this nice pic Ted ! Today I noticed (top view of PT 513 in a canal/ lock) that at least some of the Ron 35 boats had a cylindrical object (locker?) in front of the port spray shield. These are also present on PT 518 and PT 515 in the photo you posted. Were these indeed lockers and if so what was contained in them ?
Regards,
Arjan
Posted By: Arjan Wiskerke | Posted on: Dec 25, 2018 - 2:06pm
Total Posts: 162 | Joined: Dec 22, 2018 - 12:04pm
Not quite sure how to post a pic here, hope it works :
On the subject of England based Elco PT boats, I was struck by the fate of PT 509. This is a nice site :
https://www.jerseybunkertours.com/pt509
I was interested in info from a German perspective but there was none :
[url]https://www.forum-marinearchiv.de/smf/index.php/topic,30619.0.html[/url]
Regards,
Arjan
Posted By: Arjan Wiskerke | Posted on: Dec 26, 2018 - 2:17am
Total Posts: 162 | Joined: Dec 22, 2018 - 12:04pm
Arjan;
the object you mentioned in front of the port spray shield is a line locker. This was later incorporated into the spray shield, (The later version is represented on the Italeri 1/35th scale PT 596 model).
Looking through the photos, I can only find this style on England based boats(RON 34 and RON 35).
Great overhead photo of PT 519, where did you find it? I don't remember ever seeing this photo. It is obvious that this photo was taken on the transport ship to England. Does the photo description mention the ship it is on?
Take care,
TED
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Dec 26, 2018 - 11:13am
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
Hi Ted,
Thanks a lot for your reply, I really appreciate this. The photo can be found here (and quite a few other ones) :
https://www.ww2online.org/image/deck-pt-519-england-or-france-circa-1944
There are some pics showing the transport ship. As far as I know this must be Landing Ship Dock HMS Oceanway but maybe other transport ships were also involved.in ferrying the PT boats to Britain.
edit: the pics of the transport vessel definitely do not show HMS Oceanway, in the caption an attack transport ship is mentioned carrying four PT boats :
https://www.ww2online.org/image/us-attack-transport-ship-carrying-four-pt-patrol-torpedo-boats-europe-circa-1944
Regards,
Arjan
Posted By: Arjan Wiskerke | Posted on: Dec 26, 2018 - 11:49am
Total Posts: 162 | Joined: Dec 22, 2018 - 12:04pm
Arjan;
Some years ago I started a list titled PTs Transported via Ship.
RON 34 boats were transported to the UK several ships according to the RON 34 War Diary.
RON 34: 26 April 1944: DIVISION A was divided up between 3 ships, DIV A Group A (PT 498, PT 499) hoisted aboard SS BENJAMIN HOYT. DIV A GROUP B (PT 500, PT 502) hoisted aboard SS BILLY SUNDAY. DIV A Group C (PT 501, PT 503) hoisted aboard SS CYRUS T. BRADY, they departed with a convoy on 1 May 1944. 3 May 1944: DIVISION B was divided into two groups, DIV B Group A (PT 504, PT 505, PT 508, and PT 509) was hoisted aboard SS MCCELLAND CREEK, and the DIV B Group B (PT 506 and PT 507) was hoisted aboard SS BILLY MITCHELL. They arrived in Liverpool on 14 May 1944, and off DIV B Group A was loaded at Langham Docks. PT 501 and PT 503 on SS CYRUS T. BRADY, arrived a few days earlier and were already in the water moored in Liverpool. 16 MAY 1944; SS BILLY SUNDAY offloaded DIV A Grp B (PT 500 and PT 502) at Prince’s Dock Glasgow, Scotland. 17 MAY SS BENJAMIN HOYT off loaded and DIV A Grp A (PT 498 and PT 499) were waterborne and moored at Gladstone Dock, Liverpool. 1600 23 MAY 1944 all RON 34 Boats are moored to East Pens HM Dockyard Portland England.
This is from the RON 35 War Diary:
RON 35; SS BENINGTON, DIVISION A (PT 510, PT 511, PT 518, PT 512), SS STONEY POINT, DIVISION B (PT 513, PT 514, PT 517, PT 521), and SS SAN DIEGO, DIVISION C (PT 515, PT 516, PT 519, PT 520). 0825 May 21, 1944 departed Brooklyn Navy Yard for Scotland with convoy CU 25, arrived Scotland on May 31, 1944. Finally, 2020 4 June 1944, all RON 35 Boats moored at East Pens HM Dockyard Portland.
Take care,
TED
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Dec 26, 2018 - 2:15pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
Thanks for your trouble Ted ! I have been building a 1/35 lend lease Vosper (MTB 378, built at the Annapolis Yacht Yard) which is finally nearing completion. I hope to get started on a model of PT 515 this week :
[url]https://modelshipwrights.kitmaker.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=SquawkBox&file=index&req=viewtopic&topic_id=227342&ord=&page=5[/url]
Regards,
Arjan
Posted By: Arjan Wiskerke | Posted on: Dec 27, 2018 - 1:25am
Total Posts: 162 | Joined: Dec 22, 2018 - 12:04pm
I've just found some short footage showing a Higgins PT boat (probably Ron 2(2)) and some Elco PT boats (probably Ron 34) just prior to the invasion. Location is Portland Bill, footage starts at 1.03 :
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKn1z3PtyXY[/url]
Stills can be found here :
[url]https://www.criticalpast.com/video/65675069837_preparation-for-Normandy-invasion_Allied-troops_invasion-craft_anchored-in-harbor[/url]
Arjan
Posted By: Arjan Wiskerke | Posted on: Dec 28, 2018 - 2:24am
Total Posts: 162 | Joined: Dec 22, 2018 - 12:04pm
Hi Arjan, I live on Jersey and have done much research into the action which took place on that fateful day. Let me know what info you would like and I will try to assist you. I have details on the German convoy and the commander, troops etc. Awesome pic by the way !
Posted By: JerseySandy | Posted on: Dec 28, 2018 - 11:25am
Total Posts: 12 | Joined: Dec 25, 2018 - 3:50pm
Hi, are you one of the people behind the section on PT 509 on The Jersey Bunker Tours site ? Really nice site, the artifacts of PT 509 are also very impressive.
I was especially interested in the impact the engagement had on the Germans. Apparently all the people of the German Historisches Marine Archiv could find is that it was considered a " fierce engagement" by the Germans :
"Jacques Mordal (Handstreich auf Granville) schreibt nur kurz "Am 9. August war die 46. M.S.F. vor Jersey in hartem Kampf gewesen."
I wonder if you know whether there were any casualties on the German side ?
Regards,
Arjan
Posted By: Arjan Wiskerke | Posted on: Dec 28, 2018 - 12:46pm
Total Posts: 162 | Joined: Dec 22, 2018 - 12:04pm
Look at the pages for A Hero Among Millions. Towards the end, there is a shadow box with LtCdr Sherertz's awards. I cannot find any reference for the awarding of a Navy Cross to him.
At Close Quarters lists his highest award as a Bronze Star.
Am I missing something?
JBG
Posted By: JBG327 | Posted on: Dec 28, 2018 - 7:59pm
Total Posts: 74 | Joined: Sep 29, 2012 - 2:40pm
Thanks for your reply.
To return to a subject I raised earlier, the park bench like racks on the foredeck keep puzzling me. Could it be that these had been specifically designed for rescue operations ? Perhaps carrying out rescue operations was one of the roles that had been envisaged for the Channel PTs ? I wonder if there are any references to these "cradles" in the war diaries of the Rons in question.
Regards,
Arjan
Posted By: Arjan Wiskerke | Posted on: Dec 29, 2018 - 12:36am
Total Posts: 162 | Joined: Dec 22, 2018 - 12:04pm
Hi Arjan, I run Bunkers in Jersey Facebook page and I am a member of the Channel Islands Occupation Society. I have been able to collect quite a significant amount of research on this subject. I undertake a ceremony on or around the annual anniversary of the action to tell the story at the site of the memorial on the island. So, to answer your question as to the German side, 4 were killed including one Army engineer, 1 missing (German Army), 41 were wounded. 3 German minesweepers, which formed part of the convoy on that fateful day, the M4621, 22 and 26 were so severely damaged that they were taken out of service.
The German dead were as follows:
M4626
Chief Boatswain Hans Buchhoilz, Leading Machinist Heinz Hildebrandt
M4622
Leading Seaman Herman Reinhardt
Engineer Battalion 319
Lance Corporal Herman Schwen
All were buried at St Brelade's Military Cemetery, Jersey. In 1962 their remains were transferred to the large German cemetery at Mont-des-Huisnes, near Mont St Michel, Normandy, France.
As you know it was the M4626 which was rammed by the PT-509.
Let me know if you require any more information.
Posted By: JerseySandy | Posted on: Dec 29, 2018 - 6:11am
Total Posts: 12 | Joined: Dec 25, 2018 - 3:50pm
Thanks a lot for this detailed info ! Strange that no detailed mention of the German casualties and damage appears to have been made in German war diaries (it is merely mentioned that 4 ships were damaged and that the losses were light). Or perhaps the people of the German forum just didn't look in the right places. I will pass on the info you've provided.
Regards,
Arjan
Posted By: Arjan Wiskerke | Posted on: Dec 29, 2018 - 6:47am
Total Posts: 162 | Joined: Dec 22, 2018 - 12:04pm
I believe Chip Marshall told us the structure on the starboard bow was to hold a rescue net, possibly on the boats used for OSI operations. I am not positive about this though.
The locker in front of the port bridge wing may have been for a rubber boat, A drawing for slightly later boats shows a similar locker and that is what it was for.
Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Dec 30, 2018 - 1:40am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am
Much obliged Jeff. I read parts of the "Secret Flottillas" book and I was surprised to learn how often PT boats (especially PT boats/MTBs in the Med) were used for covert operations. A rather well-known one was operation "Ginny".
Regards,
Arjan
Posted By: Arjan Wiskerke | Posted on: Dec 30, 2018 - 1:52am
Total Posts: 162 | Joined: Dec 22, 2018 - 12:04pm
I noticed there is quite a bit of newsreel footage of the Channel PT boats on Critical Past. One clip was shot from PT 515 :
Crew members of PT 515 in the twin Browning turrets apparently also wore the oversized helmets used for earphones :
PT 504 :
One of the boats had a shark mouth :
A Higgins PT boat with similar cradles discussed earlier:
I read in the Coastal Forces book that the 20mm Oerlikon on PT 515 was exchanged by a 37mm gun at a certain point. I think the pic with the Jeep shows PT 515 with the latter gun (although it's not easy to see).
Arjan
Posted By: Arjan Wiskerke | Posted on: Dec 30, 2018 - 12:55pm
Total Posts: 162 | Joined: Dec 22, 2018 - 12:04pm
Arjan:
You are correct, there were several cameras and "reporters", around. Once CDR. JDB invited John Ford into the fold. cameras were everywhere.
TED
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Dec 30, 2018 - 4:19pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
This roll must have been made on Commander John Bulkeley's boat (O.S.S.- USN) . It also has some good shots of PT 504 which ,at that time at least, didn't have the special rubber boat locker::
https://www.criticalpast.com/video/65675049263_Allied-battleship_invasion-of-France_patrol-boats_life-jacket_coming-alongside
[url]https://ethoslive.wordpress.com/2015/07/30/origin-of-the-first-special-boat-
team-pt-squadron-2/[/url]
This is the roll showing PT 515 :
[url]https://www.criticalpast.com/video/65675049262_Patrol-boats_invasion-of-France_torpedo-boats_signaling-semaphore[/url]
This one shows the Higgins boat with two cradles :
[url]https://www.criticalpast.com/video/65675049893_Landing-Craft-Infantry_patrol-boat_shell-hit_APs[/url]
Regards,
Arjan
Posted By: Arjan Wiskerke | Posted on: Dec 30, 2018 - 11:17pm
Total Posts: 162 | Joined: Dec 22, 2018 - 12:04pm
Arjan;
This one is an 80' ELCO, not a Higgins. I have never seen a RON 34 or RON 35 boat with a Sharks mouth painted on it!!!!
https://i.imgur.com/HwG3uDN.jpg
Learn something new everyday!
Thanks,
Take care,
TED
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Dec 31, 2018 - 9:36am
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
I wonder about the function of the square lid/small hatch ahead of the foremost port dead light on the foredeck. Could this have been for the anchor line ? Ron 34 and 35 boats also had an object that looks like a roller in between this square lid and the toe rail. Perhaps for hoisting the anchor ? These two objects are shown in the third from last photo posted by David Waples (Mr. Frank's photo collection) .
Regards,
Arjan
Posted By: Arjan Wiskerke | Posted on: Jan 4, 2019 - 1:26pm
Total Posts: 162 | Joined: Dec 22, 2018 - 12:04pm
Arjan;
Yes that is the chain locker hatch. The other item is s float. you can see another in the photo 7th from end (crewman wearing flak vest).
Take care,
TED
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Jan 4, 2019 - 1:57pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
Thanks once more Ted ! By the way, Al Ross mentions that the port 20mm Oerlikon on PT 509, 515, 517, 519 and 520 was later exchanged by a 37 mm gun. The Critical Past footage shows that PT 504 could also be added to this list.
Regards,
Arjan
Posted By: Arjan Wiskerke | Posted on: Jan 4, 2019 - 2:39pm
Total Posts: 162 | Joined: Dec 22, 2018 - 12:04pm
Here is the PT-502 entering Cherbourg. Photo Credit National Museum of the US Navy 11 July 1944
[image]https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4871/46615916772_fe0d1cc658_/image]
Posted By: JerseySandy | Posted on: Jan 8, 2019 - 1:47pm
Total Posts: 12 | Joined: Dec 25, 2018 - 3:50pm
Here is the PT-502 entering Cherbourg. Photo Credit National Museum of the US Navy 11 July 1944
[image]https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4871/46615916772_fe0d1cc658_k.jpg[image]
Posted By: JerseySandy | Posted on: Jan 8, 2019 - 1:51pm
Total Posts: 12 | Joined: Dec 25, 2018 - 3:50pm
Thanks for posting this nice pic ! There is definitely no shortage of good pics and footage of Ron 34 and 35 boats [:-happy-:].
Regards,
Arjan
Posted By: Arjan Wiskerke | Posted on: Jan 8, 2019 - 2:54pm
Total Posts: 162 | Joined: Dec 22, 2018 - 12:04pm
I usually make rc conversions of my Italeri 1/35 boats . Some pics of my progress on my PT 515 build (I promise I won't bother you with updates [:-happy2-:].).
Arjan
Posted By: Arjan Wiskerke | Posted on: Jan 16, 2019 - 6:32am
Total Posts: 162 | Joined: Dec 22, 2018 - 12:04pm
I've noticed that the windows in the sides of the charthouse of the Italeri late PT kit are sitting much too high. I already suspected this but once I test fitted a running light it became quite obvious. I wonder about other details of these Italeri window frames as well. If I interpret the following pics correctly there was no raised rim around the window frame like those present on the Italeri PT 596 parts ?
Perhaps someone could post a closeup of the windows of the Elco series the Channel boats belonged to ? I noticed that there seem to be very few clear photos of the side windows (torps and crew members often obscure these in pics).
edit: I also get the impression these side windows of the Channel boats did not have the same height as those of late PT boats. Or perhaps they were the same height but Italeri made them too big on the 596 kit ?
Regards,
Arjan
Posted By: Arjan Wiskerke | Posted on: Jan 21, 2019 - 6:27am
Total Posts: 162 | Joined: Dec 22, 2018 - 12:04pm
Arjan;
Check out Jeff's website www.pt103.com
Take care,
TED
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Jan 21, 2019 - 7:59am
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
Thanks Ted, so I take it then that the chart house side windows of the 486-563 series were pretty much the same as those of the 103-196 and 314-367 series. I wish I had noticed this earlier (back to the drawing board ....).
Regards,
Arjan
Posted By: Arjan Wiskerke | Posted on: Jan 21, 2019 - 8:36am
Total Posts: 162 | Joined: Dec 22, 2018 - 12:04pm
Here's a couple that show the window
Charlie
Posted By: 29navy | Posted on: Jan 21, 2019 - 1:05pm
Total Posts: 600 | Joined: Dec 28, 2006 - 3:02pm
Thanks a lot for posting these pics Charlie . I must say that converting the Italeri PT 596 kit into a Channel PT boat requires more work than I had anticipated [:-rdo-:].
Regards,
Arjan
Posted By: Arjan Wiskerke | Posted on: Jan 21, 2019 - 3:08pm
Total Posts: 162 | Joined: Dec 22, 2018 - 12:04pm
Your model is looking good Arjan!
There was a very slight rim around the windows from the frame itself sticking out slightly. It was about 1/8 x 1/8. All the Elco 80 boats used the same windows so those depicted on my site should be OK to use as a reference for your later boat. The 1st drawing on this page details the windows: [url]http://www.pt103.com/PT_Boat_Components_Day_Room_Cabin_Trunk.html[/url] Note that the starboard forward window of the day cabin was the unlike the others and was the same as those on the front of the chart house.
Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Jan 21, 2019 - 3:33pm
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am
Much obliged Jeff ! Your site is invaluable for modellers like me, wish I had reference material like this when I was building my Annapolis Vosper. So from what you are saying I gather the windows in question of Italer's PT 596 kit are simply completely wrong.
Regards,
Arjan
Posted By: Arjan Wiskerke | Posted on: Jan 22, 2019 - 12:58am
Total Posts: 162 | Joined: Dec 22, 2018 - 12:04pm
Thank you Arjan!
Yep the Italeri windows could use some work if you want them right, I'm happy to see you do! Another thing they arguably got wrong is the raised object on top of the day cabin that goes from the mast to the back. It seems they used a reference photo that had a rope laying on the roof and faithfully recreated it. The same with the late model Merit 1/48th kit which is pretty much a copy of Italeris.
Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Jan 22, 2019 - 1:54am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am
Thanks for warning me about the rope, I built the PT 596 kit out of the box some 10 years ago and never noticed this. It's always a bit of a downer to learn about these mistakes after having finished one's build [:-happy-:]. The 1/35 Italeri S100 Schnellboot was a copy of the 1/72 Revell one and also shares most of the mistakes of the latter.
Regards,
Arjan
Posted By: Arjan Wiskerke | Posted on: Jan 22, 2019 - 4:07am
Total Posts: 162 | Joined: Dec 22, 2018 - 12:04pm
Arjan;
i have two early 1980's 1/72nd Airfix S-10 class Schnellboats that I converted to S-100 class. Because I like the up-gunned version, I took it a little farther. Mine are armed with 20mm forward, 4x20mm midships and 37mm on stern. Needless to say, it was ALOT of work.
Take care,
TED
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Jan 22, 2019 - 6:58am
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
Hi Ted, I also built the Airfix 1/72 Schnellboot kit some 30 years ago. I like the fact that these kits are still around and are still being built. Since I'm always trying to convert people to building rc models here are some pics of my 1/35 rc flotilla :
My Schnellboot made its maiden voyage some months ago but still isn't quite finished :
My Vosper should make its maiden voyage in the spring :
Regards,
Arjan
Posted By: Arjan Wiskerke | Posted on: Jan 22, 2019 - 7:51am
Total Posts: 162 | Joined: Dec 22, 2018 - 12:04pm
Hi Arjan ,
Nice looking boats.
The PT makes a good bow wave and she looks stable in the water.
But you do give me extra work with your remark about the windows in the radioroom.
I'm now getting up the courage to start cutting the new windows.
If posted some photos on my topic were I am now.
Any other things you think are wrong?
thanks
Tom
Posted By: Tom dK | Posted on: Jan 22, 2019 - 10:25am
Total Posts: 48 | Joined: Dec 27, 2018 - 7:09am
Nice models Arjan! I'm also partial to R/C models.
Hey just paint the rope on top of the day cabin tan, after all there's photographic evidence of it. Call it an added detail.
Tom, one big error on the Italeri / Merit PTs is the flat topped deck that should be a gentle S when viewed from the side. But that requires major surgery... also the 109 kit has forward and aft day cabin bulkheads at a right angle to the deck / cabin roof, they should be at right angles to the water line. I seem to remember that their 596 kit is the same. This image shows what the gentle S of the sheer line should look like: [url]http://www.pt103.com/images/PT_Boat_Elco_103_Class_Hull_Profile_Stitched.jpg[/url]
Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Jan 22, 2019 - 11:19am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am
Thanks gentlemen, I won't bother attempting to improve the shape of the deck but I'm certainly going to overhaul the window frames of the day room.
Regards,
Arjan
Posted By: Arjan Wiskerke | Posted on: Jan 22, 2019 - 12:02pm
Total Posts: 162 | Joined: Dec 22, 2018 - 12:04pm
Jeff thanks for the tip but I'm with Arjan in this.
to much of a hassle to try
windows coming along okay
cheers, Tom
Posted By: Tom dK | Posted on: Jan 23, 2019 - 9:09am
Total Posts: 48 | Joined: Dec 27, 2018 - 7:09am
Hi Tom, the navigation horn you built looks impressive ! I ordered some parts at Shapeways today .Jeff's vents and running lights , the airfoil wind deflector and the Oerlikon magazine cradles. I had built some navigation lights myself but I also wanted to put leds in these so I needed some clear lenses. The transluscent 3d printing material should be ideal.for this purpose.
Groet,
Arjan
Posted By: Arjan Wiskerke | Posted on: Jan 23, 2019 - 9:55am
Total Posts: 162 | Joined: Dec 22, 2018 - 12:04pm
Dear Arjan, you have inspired me to start a build. I got hold of the Italeri PT-596 kit and want to build the PT-509. We are also planning a separate build for a diorama of the action she saw on August 9th. You mention Shapeways - could you kindly advise please as I am totally new to all of this.
Posted By: JerseySandy | Posted on: Jan 30, 2019 - 12:16pm
Total Posts: 12 | Joined: Dec 25, 2018 - 3:50pm
Hi, good to hear you are also going to build a Channel PT model. Of course I'm quite willing to help you , perhaps you could drop me an email or private message (I'd rather not provide my email address online here).
Shapeways offers a rather wide range of 1/35 PT parts. These are the parts available :
https://www.shapeways.com/marketplace/miniatures/ships/?tag=1%2F35
https://www.shapeways.com/shops/pt103dotcom?section=1%2F35th+Scale&s=0
Shapeways resides in Eindhoven (Holland) and the US I believe. To order articles you have to register to the Shapeways site.
Yesterday I installed Jeff''s running lights (I painted the lenses in transparent red and green). I hope to wire up some leds today to see if it works out the way I had hoped.
Regards,
Arjan
Posted By: Arjan Wiskerke | Posted on: Jan 31, 2019 - 12:17am
Total Posts: 162 | Joined: Dec 22, 2018 - 12:04pm
I've just tried out the port navigation light. I didn't have the proper resistor for this red led in stock so it's about half the brightness that could be achieved. I must say I'm quite pleased with the result. I haven't got a green led in stock so I couldn't try out the starboard light yet .
Led off :
Port led turned on :
I haven't fixed the running lights permanently yet so I can remove them when the model is sprayed. Constructing a working search light will be more challenging. Fortunately, the Channel boats had the early style search lights which were a bit bigger than those of late PT boats.
Arjan
Posted By: Arjan Wiskerke | Posted on: Jan 31, 2019 - 5:33am
Total Posts: 162 | Joined: Dec 22, 2018 - 12:04pm
Arjan;
Light up the Stbd and lets see what it looks like.
I made a 1/32 PT 48 77' ELCO(Circa 1942) and put LEDs in the running lights, also battle lighting(RED LED's) in the cabin/2nd helm(I didn't paint the windows and scratchbuilt an interior) and Engine Room(scratchbuilt interior).
Take care,
TED
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Jan 31, 2019 - 6:23am
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
Hi Ted, that sounds interesting . Perhaps you could post some pics of your build ?
Regards,
Arjan
Posted By: Arjan Wiskerke | Posted on: Jan 31, 2019 - 8:58am
Total Posts: 162 | Joined: Dec 22, 2018 - 12:04pm
Arjan;
Light up the Stbd and lets see what it looks like.
I made a 1/32 PT 48 77' ELCO(Circa 1942) and put LEDs in the running lights, also battle lighting(RED LED's) in the cabin/2nd helm(I didn't paint the windows and scratchbuilt an interior) and Engine Room(scratchbuilt interior).
Take care,
TED
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Jan 31, 2019 - 10:30am
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
Arjan,
I can't look at your beautiful Vosper model without thinking of the "PT 73" of the old 1960s TV series "McHale's Navy!"
Posted By: Drew Cook | Posted on: Jan 31, 2019 - 1:10pm
Total Posts: 1306 | Joined: Oct 19, 2006 - 10:44am
Hi Drew, as far as I know this tv series was never broadcast in Holland ( unlike countless other American series of the sixties and seventies) so I only know it from some video clips on the internet.It's a pity there are no survivors of these American built craft. What surprises me is that these Vospers never seem to show up in pics made by American PT crews, after all British MTBs and American PT boats often shared the same port (Leghorn for instance).. I get the impression the American and British crews didn't mingle at all.
Regards,
Arjan
Posted By: Arjan Wiskerke | Posted on: Jan 31, 2019 - 3:56pm
Total Posts: 162 | Joined: Dec 22, 2018 - 12:04pm
Hey that looks good Arjan! Very clever use of SW's translucent plastic. I like the relocated window too.
Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Feb 1, 2019 - 4:23am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am
Thanks Jeff ! The three parts that make up the light are a perfect fit . I first glued the light housing onto its base. I applied cyano acrylate glue through the slot in the base with a tooth pick, so gluing both parts from the inside. This procedure prevents getting any excess glue on the outside. I then carefully enlarged the slot in the base and finally glued the lens on (glue once more applied from the inside, through the slot).
Regards,
Arjan
Posted By: Arjan Wiskerke | Posted on: Feb 1, 2019 - 5:41am
Total Posts: 162 | Joined: Dec 22, 2018 - 12:04pm
I wonder if the bridge door of the PT 486-563 series had a window ? I don't know which boat this is but it shares a lot of features with the Channel boats and its bridge door definitely had a window :
Thanks in advance.
Arjan
Posted By: Arjan Wiskerke | Posted on: Feb 6, 2019 - 12:21pm
Total Posts: 162 | Joined: Dec 22, 2018 - 12:04pm
Yes it did Arjan. It was dimensionally the same as the early boats with a 10 inch height by 12 inch width opening in the door and corner radii of 1/2 inch. The bottom of the opening was 14 inches below the top of the door. The window frame was similar to those found on the front of the chart house (with less corner radius) and was 12 inch height by 14 inch width with corner radii of 1 1/2 inch. This render of the earlier boats door shows what it looks like, the size of the door and location of the window in it are the same:
[image]http://www.pt103.com/images/PT_Boat_Elco_103_Class_Bridge_And_Chart_House_Perspective_Details_Stbd_Bridge.jpg[/image]
Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Feb 6, 2019 - 4:18pm
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am
Always good to verify the drawings, you can just see it in this image of PT 508:
Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Feb 6, 2019 - 4:43pm
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am
I forgot to mention:
The door is 19 1/2 inch by 49 inch.
The inside / outside corner radii of the 1 inch width window frame is 1/2 inch / 1 1/2 inch.
The window is centered horizontally in the door.
Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Feb 6, 2019 - 7:10pm
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am
Many thanks Jeff ! By now I'm convinced that Italeri's PT 109 kit is a much better starting point for building a Ron 34/35 boat than the PT 596 one. Of course the former does lack the necessary armament..Perhaps I will try to convert my PT 109 kit into a Ron 29 boat in the future.
Regards,
Arjan
Posted By: Arjan Wiskerke | Posted on: Feb 7, 2019 - 1:31am
Total Posts: 162 | Joined: Dec 22, 2018 - 12:04pm
You're welcome Arjan! [:-cheers-:]
Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Feb 7, 2019 - 4:38am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am
Some pics of my bridge door and control panel (still have to add details). The coaming above the doorpost is a bit too heavy and I will replace it by a more slender one.
My take on the vents :
Helmsman and commander still need some touching up :
Arjan
Posted By: Arjan Wiskerke | Posted on: Feb 9, 2019 - 2:20am
Total Posts: 162 | Joined: Dec 22, 2018 - 12:04pm
Yesterday I fitted the 3d airfoil wind deflector from Panzer VS Tanks 2. Unfortunately these parts are rather disappointing and I can't recommend them. In general the parts are all a bit too small, at least that goes for the wing and storage brackets. The wing itself is also too short by about 2.5 mm. For some strange reason the designer apparently thought that the wing struts were not straight but bent. The wing also sits too low over the bridge. Tom's homemade deflector is definitely more accurate and unfortunately I will also have to make one myself.
I know that the original drawings of the deflector are difficult to read but there are enough pics showing what the thing looked like.
Arjan
Posted By: Arjan Wiskerke | Posted on: Feb 11, 2019 - 1:14am
Total Posts: 162 | Joined: Dec 22, 2018 - 12:04pm
Nice work on the vents and crewmen Arjan!
I see what you mean about the wind deflector parts being too small. The airfoil length should be 9, I wonder if he misread it as 6 since the dimension reads vertically on the drawing. There are 2 drawings that are on the DVD to cover all but the 565-624 boats, unlike your photo neither have both stanchions straight. One shows a stanchion offset on just one side while the earlier one shows offsets on both. Maybe the photo is of a 565-624 boat? Wing widths were also different. Here are some measurements:
PT 314-367 and unknown earlier
Airfoil width: 68
Stanchion heights / offsets: 24 1/8 with 7/8 offset outboard, 3 3/4 inboard
PT 372-383, 486-563, 731-760
Airfoil width: 71 3/4
Stanchion heights / offsets: 24 1/8 with 7/8 offset outboard, 0 inboard
Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Feb 12, 2019 - 5:07pm
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am
Thanks for posting the drawings Jeff. Judging from pics it seems to me that the starboard stanchion was indeed as straight as a ramrod, if there was any offset it's not noticeable in pics. A slight offset in the port stanchion does show up in some pics though.
Starboard stanchion :
Port stanchion :
Both stanchions :
edit: I guess the designer of the 3d parts in question used the drawings for the earlier boat series. He should at least change his "boxart" because this depicts a Channel boat.
Regards,
Arjan
Posted By: Arjan Wiskerke | Posted on: Feb 13, 2019 - 12:57am
Total Posts: 162 | Joined: Dec 22, 2018 - 12:04pm
In the mean time I have rustled up a homemade trial version. It's not perfect yet but I may stick to steel wire for the stanchions , after all I'm building an rc model which shouldn't be too vulnerable .
Arjan
Posted By: Arjan Wiskerke | Posted on: Feb 13, 2019 - 6:50am
Total Posts: 162 | Joined: Dec 22, 2018 - 12:04pm
I think you are right, leveling the deflector in this 507 photo seems to show a straight starboard stanchion and a slightly offset port one. It looks to me that the offset was spread out more than the drawing shows, making it harder to detect:
Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Feb 13, 2019 - 7:04am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am
Yours looks good, Arjan, but while viewing "They Were Expendable" over the years, I always wished they'd taken those darn things off the two 80' Elcos in the film.
After all, they removed the stern 20mm guns!
Posted By: Drew Cook | Posted on: Feb 13, 2019 - 11:40am
Total Posts: 1306 | Joined: Oct 19, 2006 - 10:44am
Thanks Drew . I used to have a copy of that film on video (recorded from tv) but I binned it with the video recorder and the other video tapes some 10 years ago. I would definitely like to watch it again. I believe I once read on the forum which boats were used for the film but I forgot.
I don't know anything about aerodynamics, could someone explain how the wind deflector was supposed to work ?
Regards,
Arjan
Posted By: Arjan Wiskerke | Posted on: Feb 13, 2019 - 12:19pm
Total Posts: 162 | Joined: Dec 22, 2018 - 12:04pm
I believe the Elcos were PT-139 & PT-141. The Huckins were
PTs 98,100,101 & 102.
Will
Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Feb 13, 2019 - 3:13pm
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm
I believe the Elcos were PT-139 & PT-141. The Huckins were
PTs 98,100,101 & 102.
Will
Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Feb 13, 2019 - 3:14pm
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm
Thanks Will ! I've found some really good stills on the web. On earlier boats the starboard stanchion of the deflector was indeed offset . By the way the deflector was not stored correctly, it is facing the wrong way (Hollywood sailors ...).
Some other nice stills :
Regards,
Arjan
Posted By: Arjan Wiskerke | Posted on: Feb 14, 2019 - 2:19am
Total Posts: 162 | Joined: Dec 22, 2018 - 12:04pm
This has been an interesting discussion about the wind deflector, something I wasn't really aware of as my father's boat didn't have one. But I'll second the question presented by Arjan, how were they supposed to work? I have some work and recreation-related knowledge of aerodynamics, mostly for controlling airflow in clean rooms (work) and on race cars (recreation).
The horizontal element of the wind deflector appears to have the same (or very similar) convex shape on both sides, which makes it a streamlined shape but not really an airfoil shape such as an aircraft wing. An airfoil shape is typically convex on one side (the top side on an aircraft wing) and flatter or even concave on the other surface. The different shapes create positive and negative relative air pressures on either surface as the air moves across them, thereby inducing lift or downforce depending on which side is 'up'. The wind deflector is also rather short front to rear, known as the chord dimension, which minimizes the shape's potential impact on airflow.
A streamlined shape simply improves the airflow around a surface and reduces drag but does not induce lift or downforce. When placed at an angle relative to the air flow they can direct the air upward or downward and generate a force in the opposite direction, such as the ailerons on the trailing edge of an aircraft wing or the elevators on the horizontal stabilizer. Placing a streamline shape relatively close to another horizontal surface, such as the bridge on a PT boat. can induce a pressure and airflow change in that area, however I wouldn't want to predict what that effect might be strictly by eyeballing the PT boat setup.
Finally, both streamlined shapes and airfoils have an effect on moisture in the air, the side(s) generating higher pressures generally cause the moisture to condense on the shapes surface and/or fall out of suspension.
I'm guessing that the PT boat wind deflector was simply angled up or down by the crew to direct the airflow as necessary for the most comfort on the bridge, with there being some effect created between the deflector and the top of the chart house. It also appears that there is only one position for the support arms when the deflector is deployed, i.e., all the way back, so the only adjustment available to the crew is the angle of the airfoil shape,
However, someone must know how it really worked and hopefully this discussion is worthwhile.
As a related aside, I race vintage sports cars and a year ago purchased a pure race car (Quasar SR-71) that was built in 1971. It is equipped with a wing mounted above the engine cover on high struts. I haven't raced the car yet and am trying to decide if I want to keep the wing. It has multiple positions for the mounting angles and so far I haven't found any design and operating details in the three notebooks that came with the car. It will be a very steep learning curve even without the wing. Coincidentally the car is painted a very dark green with white numbers and I already hold the usage rights for number 361 (my dad's PT boat) with the organization I race with. So, this car might be the new 361.
Randy McConnell (Randall J. McConnell III)
Posted By: PRJM3 | Posted on: Feb 14, 2019 - 8:21am
Total Posts: 95 | Joined: May 25, 2009 - 2:47pm
Randy;
Your vintage racer sounds very interesting!
As for the air foil, while I am sure some earlier boats had this retro fitted later(such as PT 141 RON 4) we really only see it on PT 314 on. It seems most of the Pacific based boats removed them, once out in the war zone, so I am not sure how successful they were. On many boats once removed the life raft took up its storage space on top of the charthouse, others just left this area empty. The air foil was kept on most RON 29 boats(MED) RON 34 and RON 35(England).
The only they would have been good for was deflecting or limiting the amount direct wind and rain into the cockpit at speed, and act as a big sunvisor:0)
Here is one of the very few Pacific boat photos that I have showing the air foil. This is LT Alexander W. Allison's PT 373 RON 27 March 2, 1945. GEN MacArthur is boarding her to return to Corregidor.
Take care,
TED
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Feb 14, 2019 - 9:41am
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
I also posed my question on a Dutch forum. The answer I got was that when the air stream hits the flat super structure of the bridge and is then guided upwards, the speed of the air stream increases to such an extend that the air passing over the flat bridge surface is also drawn upwards.
Tom and I also wondered if preferring a wind deflector to a transparant wind screen might have to do with the potential hazard of light reflection caused by the latter. Since the "Hollywood" Elco also had a plexi glass wind screen this seems unlikely.
Regards,
Arjan
Posted By: Arjan Wiskerke | Posted on: Feb 14, 2019 - 11:30am
Total Posts: 162 | Joined: Dec 22, 2018 - 12:04pm
Of course, the airfoils were in the shape of an airplane wing, and properly adjusted and angled, would divert the wind over the cockpit instead of into the faces of the helmsman (and whoever else was in the cockpit).
I've seen the airfoils used most often in photos and films of 80' Elcos underway during training in Stateside (Atlantic seaboard) waters.
I would think these things would be a welcome diversion of the cutting and often cold wind over the cockpit for those at the helm while running at speed at sea.
And, as we know, a lot of those Plexiglas windshields were simply painted over (you can see this on one of the boats, at least in some shots, in "They Were Expendable") to cut down any reflected light.
Posted By: Drew Cook | Posted on: Feb 14, 2019 - 12:05pm
Total Posts: 1306 | Joined: Oct 19, 2006 - 10:44am
Drew;
Oh come on, thats when you know your a real sailor when you can take that wind burning your face and rain hitting you in the face, that feels like 1000 needles hitting you[:-grin-:]
Back to the subject, as i said I am skeptical about the desired results matching up with the actual results. There must be a reason that in looking photos of RON 21 to RON 37(Pacific Boats) photos, all the boats have the mounting points for the air foil, but they are removed.
PT 379 RON 28 being repainted alongside tender. Notice the locking pin in the mounting hole. This is the way most boats are,after removing their air foil, with the locking pin in the hole.
By PT 565 RON 38 the air foil is gone, no mounting points.
Take care,
TED
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Feb 14, 2019 - 1:08pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
I have been reading all this conjecture about the wind deflector and it reminded me of other examples of this air deflector scheme being used. Aboard the USS LCI713 landing craft on which I also volunteer, is a similar feature. On the open Conning Tower, where the OOD and Signalman are stationed, there is a metal shroud outside the upper edge of the Bridge. The upper bulwark of the Conn is beveled outwards to form a venturi shape between itself and the outer shroud. The result is an invisible air screen (like the one that blows at the entrance doors of Home Depot) which keeps the rain from hitting you in the face. This invisible air screen/rain deflector will work as long as the ship is moving forward at around 10 knots. Perhaps the PT Boat airfoil can be set up to create a similar air screen on a moving PT Boat? It would make sense as it cannot reflect any glare or other visual defects that detract from a plexiglass shield. As far as I know, this is a common method (the air screen) used on many vessel types of the period, and not just PT Boats. So it makes sense that the PT boats also had them.
Jerry
Jerry Gilmartin
PT658 Crewman
Portland OR
Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Feb 14, 2019 - 4:46pm
Total Posts: 1473 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm
Many thanks for your feedback gentlemen ! Vosper MTBs also had wind deflectors on the bridge (I hadn't thought of this before ....) :
No doubt the disadvantage of the system is indeed that a certain speed is required for optimal results.
Regards,
Arjan
Posted By: Arjan Wiskerke | Posted on: Feb 15, 2019 - 2:11am
Total Posts: 162 | Joined: Dec 22, 2018 - 12:04pm
Ted,
I definitely felt that wind and spray in the face when crewing (and helming) the (65 foot? Can't remember exactly) sloop "Odessa" from Santo Domingo to Puerto Rico across the Mona Passage many long years ago!
The Mona was pretty rough during that trip, both day and night.
Funny end of voyage -- We came into P.R. at dusk, all our electrics out, threading our way through the anchorage slowly, when some wise guy on the stern of one of the moored boats yelled "Hey! Where're your running lights!" My boss, who was at the helm at the moment, yelled back "We ain't got no f***in' running lights! We're f***in' spies!"
Posted By: Drew Cook | Posted on: Feb 15, 2019 - 12:58pm
Total Posts: 1306 | Joined: Oct 19, 2006 - 10:44am
Drew;
Ha Ha !! Ah yes I remember the Mona passage , we ran out 65' MK lll PB's from Puerto Plata through Mona past lsla Caja de Muertos to Roosevelt Roads.
Good times for sailors bad for the land lubbers!!
Take care,
TED
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Feb 15, 2019 - 4:51pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
In a file I received from Ted I found an action report that caught my attention. It concerns PT 518, PT 513 and PT 515.
"Combat off Le Havre
On the night of August 10/11, 1944, PT518 along with PT513 and PT515' was working in conjunction with the British frigate HMS THORNBOROUGH and patrolling off Le Havre, France.
The THORNBOROUGH vectored the PTs toward the land just north of Cape D'Antifer to investigate a 6-pip radar contact believed to be German E-Boats, R-Boats or trawlers. There was a heavy fog in the area so the PTs approached without German response until they were about 400 yards from the targets. The order was given to fire torpedoes and circle back to commence a gun attack.
While no torpedo hits could be confirmed, the Germans did open up their deck guns and a fire fight ensued. A number of hits were made by the PTs on the German vessels. PT513 took a hit on its 40mm gun mount. Two of her crew were seriously wounded and one man slightly wounded. PT515 and PT518 suffered no damage. The enemy was seen, by radar, to turn and enter the port of La Harve. The THORNBOROUGH directed the PTs to return to the patrol area. "
I was interested to learn what the damage was the PT boats had inflicted on the German ships so I turned to my German internet friends for some answers.
A German war diary mentions the engagement :
The German ships had set out to rescue a downed Luftwaffe air crew when they were attacked by 3 enemy "Gunboats". The Germans observed hits on the enemy boats after which these boats (the PT boats) retreated while using their smoke generators.. Apparently a German Subchaser (UJäger 1430) had received two hits on the superstructure from the guns of the PT boats. No mention of any casualties.
Arjan
Posted By: Arjan Wiskerke | Posted on: Feb 18, 2019 - 8:15am
Total Posts: 162 | Joined: Dec 22, 2018 - 12:04pm
As far as I know the only successful torpedo attack made by Channel PT boats was this one (from "At Close Quarters") :
This is what German sources mention about this attack :
- 26./27.08.1944 1. und 2. Gruppe unter Führung des FloChefs laufen zur Räumung von Fécamp nach dort zurück. Bei Angriffen brit. Schnellboote gehen AF 98 und AF 108 durch Torpedotreffer verloren. 9 Mann gefallen [4]
- 26./27.08.1944 In der Nacht greifen alliierte Seestreitkräfte Boote der 8. Artillerieträger-Flottille und der 14. R-Flottille an. AF 13, AF 98 und AF 108 werden versenkt. [2]
- 27.08.1944 02.50 Uhr S-Bootangriff von Steuerbord achteraus, Oberflächenläufer trifft Führerboot AF 98 Steuerbord vorn, Ruder klemmt, mit Schlepper Nungesser Schleppverbindung hergestellt, Besatzung geht auf R 226. 04.30 Uhr 4 sm östlich Fecamp sinkt AF 98, 1 Vermißter [3]
- 29./30.08.1944 Die Restbesatzungen von AF 97, AF 110 und AF 111 gehen über Land nach Le Havre, die von AF 98, AF 105, AF 108 nach Boulogne zurück, wo die Überlebenden nach Teilnahme am Landkampf später in Gefangenschaft geraten
- 27.08.1944 02.04 Uhr Feind-S-Bootgruppe mit 4 Booten läuft Steuerbord querab an, AF 108 Torpedotreffer unter Heck, wird bis zum Maschinenschott abgerissen, Boot schwimmt weiter. Ab 02.11 Uhr auch Zerstörerbeschuß, AF 108 wird daraufhin mit Hilfe eigener R-Boote gesprengt. 8 Vermißte, 13 Verwundete [3]
- 26./27.08.1944 In der Nacht greifen alliierte Seestreitkräfte Boote der 8. Artillerieträger-Flottille und der 14. R-Flottille an. AF 13, AF 98 und AF 108 werden versenkt. [2]
Two illustrations of the Artillerieträger (artillery lighters) in question :
Arjan
Posted By: Arjan Wiskerke | Posted on: Feb 20, 2019 - 11:33pm
Total Posts: 162 | Joined: Dec 22, 2018 - 12:04pm
Interesting, thanks Arjan. Always good hearing both sides of an engagement. I remember seeing the Amagiri's report and how they saw the 109 and veered into it. Before that I was under the impression that the collision was sheer chance.
Accurate gun fire until almost 4 miles away... wow.
Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Feb 21, 2019 - 6:00am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am
Thanks Jeff . The fog of war and sometimes also real, literal fog often makes action reports slightly unreliable so it's always good to have accounts from both sides. By the way I'm surprised that the German Marine Fährprähme did not get the recognition they deserve. I mean everybody knows Germany's Schnellboote, U Boote and big battle ships but the workhorse of the Kriegsmarine , the MFP, is much less known to the general public. Nevertheless, I think these craft were of vital importance to Germany's war effort (on practically all fronts). They were used for supply , mine laying, escort duties etc. Many of these craft were built by small shipyards in Holland and Belgium and quite a number were transported over land to the Mediterranean (they had to travel over land because Gibraltar was controlled by the British). Some pics of a port in Normandy :
A small Dutch shipyard :
Over land transport :
Regards,
Arjan
Posted By: Arjan Wiskerke | Posted on: Feb 21, 2019 - 6:58am
Total Posts: 162 | Joined: Dec 22, 2018 - 12:04pm
Interesting, thanks Arjan. I could write what I know about the Kriegsmarine on the inside of a matchbook and have space left over.
The MFP sounds like the German equivalent to the Higgins LCVP. According to General Dwight D. Eisenhower, it was "the boat that won the war".
Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Feb 21, 2019 - 9:49am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am
The MFP was much bigger than the LCVP or LCM3 . The Germans also had landing craft that were comparable to the LCM, it was called a Pionier Landungsboot or simply " Pilabo". These were produced in rather small numbers because the Germans never undertook large scale naval invasions.like the allies.Two more pics to show the problems of getting through French villages with MFPs on trailers :
Regards,
Arjan
Posted By: Arjan Wiskerke | Posted on: Feb 21, 2019 - 11:31am
Total Posts: 162 | Joined: Dec 22, 2018 - 12:04pm
Back to my build, I've finally completed the wind deflector. Together with the navigation horn these parts are probably the trickiest to scratch build.
Arjan
Posted By: Arjan Wiskerke | Posted on: Feb 27, 2019 - 8:18am
Total Posts: 162 | Joined: Dec 22, 2018 - 12:04pm
Excellent work -- again.
Posted By: Drew Cook | Posted on: Feb 27, 2019 - 12:13pm
Total Posts: 1306 | Joined: Oct 19, 2006 - 10:44am
Nice work Arjan ,horn and wing look very good.
cheers, Tom
Posted By: Tom dK | Posted on: Feb 27, 2019 - 1:22pm
Total Posts: 48 | Joined: Dec 27, 2018 - 7:09am
Nice work Arjan, and interesting photos of the trailered boats! That was a tight fit between those buildings.
Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Feb 27, 2019 - 3:34pm
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am
I agree with the others. Very nice work. Excellent paint finish!
Dave
David Waples
Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Feb 27, 2019 - 8:43pm
Total Posts: 1679 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm
Thanks for your kind words gentlemen, I really appreciate this ! For those interested here's a captured German document from Russian archives with drawings and pics explaining how an MFP should be loaded/off-loaded on the beach. The document was made as part of the preparations for operation "Haifisch" (Shark). This operation - unlike operation "Seelöwe" - was a deliberate attempt to fool the allies into believing that Germany still intended to invade Britain.
http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/nodes/1389-akte-599-okh-oberquartiermeister-belgien-strandausladung-bildbeilage-teil-der-vorbereitung#page/1/mode/grid/zoom/1
Regards,
Arjan
Posted By: Arjan Wiskerke | Posted on: Feb 27, 2019 - 11:31pm
Total Posts: 162 | Joined: Dec 22, 2018 - 12:04pm
I've started on a mental list of modifications that have to be made to the day room. Apparently Ron 35 boats had a vent on top of the roof (port front). As far as I can tell this is the same vent that was fitted on the starboard wall of PT 596. The vent can be seen at the bottom of this pic of PT 519 :
This pic also shows this vent and the lux pull box that will also have to be added (I take it that the two pull boxes on the rear wall of the PT 596 kit should be removed) :
PT 504 also appears to have had heating ducts and the vertical duct running to the day room (visible below the pull box) :
I seems to me that heating ducts were probably only installed on the first batch of Ron 34 boats so I assume Ron 35 boats didn't have this vertical duct on the port wall of the day room ?
Arjan
Posted By: Arjan Wiskerke | Posted on: Feb 28, 2019 - 6:34am
Total Posts: 162 | Joined: Dec 22, 2018 - 12:04pm
The PT 596 kit has an octagonal base plate (for the mast support frame) in the center of the day room roof. I assume this should be replaced by the rectangular one supplied in the Italeri accessory kit ? The top view pic of PT 515 seems to suggest there was indeed a rectangular base plate but I'm not sure.
edit: This pic of PT 552 seems to confirm the plate should be rectangular :
edit: the shape of the engine room entrance hatch (the hatch itself) also differs from that of the PT 596 kit :
Arjan
Posted By: Arjan Wiskerke | Posted on: Mar 1, 2019 - 1:41am
Total Posts: 162 | Joined: Dec 22, 2018 - 12:04pm
I overlooked this pic showing the rectangular base plate :
Another good one of the engine room hatch :
I have considered adding the metal sheet reinforcement plates around the deck hatches and on the foredeck (apparently a feature of plywood decks). To me this is the most annoying shortcoming of the Italeri PT 596 kit. Especially the plate on the foredeck is hard to miss in good pics so I don't understand why Italeri didn't reproduce these.
I feel it's simply too much work though to reproduce these plates myself. I don't know if anyone has been brave enough to reproduce them in a 1/35 build.
Arjan
Posted By: Arjan Wiskerke | Posted on: Mar 2, 2019 - 5:01am
Total Posts: 162 | Joined: Dec 22, 2018 - 12:04pm
There is still an awful lot of work to be done but I was curious to see what the Jeep would look like on the boat :
Ted had a close look at the period pic in question and he came to the conclusion the boat is not PT 515 but PT 516 instead. This makes sense because James Mountcastle, the executive officer of Ron 35, and the commander of PT 516 had probably been ordered to transport the commanding officer's jeep to the new command post.
This was probably the Jeep in question :
The downside is that PT 516 had a very long name (Flying Gini) to put on a 1/35 plaque [:-happy2-:].
Arjan
Posted By: Arjan Wiskerke | Posted on: Mar 4, 2019 - 5:21am
Total Posts: 162 | Joined: Dec 22, 2018 - 12:04pm
That jeep aboard would make for a very cool model Arjan! I don't remember ever seeing one before.
Nice work finding details on these later boats, keep up the great work!
Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Mar 5, 2019 - 6:50am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am
Thanks Jeff ! The longer I pore over the available pics the more differences I find with the late Italeri PT kit. The PT crews also made subtle changes to their boats while in England. Most boats arrived in England with the two standard engine room cowl vents (with tall stacks) but later pics show these stacks had been shortened significantly. The reason for this is not clear to me . Of course later pics also show different colours and armament.
Regards,
Arjan
Posted By: Arjan Wiskerke | Posted on: Mar 5, 2019 - 8:20am
Total Posts: 162 | Joined: Dec 22, 2018 - 12:04pm
These two pics show that PT 516 and PT 517 had some brackets on the day room roof whose function is unclear to me (looks like they were intended for storing bars or rods ?). This pic also shows PT 517 had a locker on the port side of the chart house.
Arjan
Posted By: Arjan Wiskerke | Posted on: Mar 10, 2019 - 9:27am
Total Posts: 162 | Joined: Dec 22, 2018 - 12:04pm
Some progress pics from rainy Holland :
Engine room hatch :
The hatch from my PT 596 model and the new one :
Arjan
Posted By: Arjan Wiskerke | Posted on: Mar 14, 2019 - 5:25am
Total Posts: 162 | Joined: Dec 22, 2018 - 12:04pm
Hi Arjan,
I think you made a mistake with the engine room hatch.
You made the hatch wider and I think the cover should be slimmer.
If you look at the photo with the "winterschilder" the ammo ready rack is wider then the hatch.Also the photo in harbour seen on the back all 3 the 504 ,503 and 518 it is slimmer then the ready rack.
Sorry to say it but I though you'll might like to know it.
The work you did looks great.
cheers, Tom
Posted By: Tom dK | Posted on: Mar 14, 2019 - 9:19am
Total Posts: 48 | Joined: Dec 27, 2018 - 7:09am
Hi Tom, I appreciate your comment. I already had some doubts about the width of the original Italeri er hatch. The hatch here definitely seems to look slimmer :
I agree that the 4cm ready locker is much wider than the hatch housing in this pic :
Thing is that Italeri made the locker just as wide as the hatch housing. and the former is definitely not as wide as the one in the previous pic. So I think that the ready locker should definitely be widened and perhaps the hatch housing should be slimmed down a bit.
One thing I'm sure of (judging from both pics and drawings) is that the cover of the er hatch protrudes on both sides. Not a great pic but it shows the sides of the cover protrude slightly :
My two cents [:-happy-:].
Regards,
Arjan
Posted By: Arjan Wiskerke | Posted on: Mar 14, 2019 - 10:23am
Total Posts: 162 | Joined: Dec 22, 2018 - 12:04pm
Arjan;
The Italeri Kit has the engineroom hatch and the 40MM ready ammo locker the same size because the later boats were this way. Not the greatest angle but this gives you an idea:
PT 588 RON 39 Stern at ELCO boat basin 1945.
Take care,
TED
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Mar 14, 2019 - 12:35pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
Thanks Ted, in the mean time I had reached the same conclusion. Al's drawing of PT 562 also shows the housing and locker with the same width so that's where this probably started. Anyway, back to the drawing board [:-happy-:].
Regards,
Arjan
Posted By: Arjan Wiskerke | Posted on: Mar 14, 2019 - 12:48pm
Total Posts: 162 | Joined: Dec 22, 2018 - 12:04pm
Seeing all the excellent research Arjan PT 515 and Tom PT 518 are doing on these Elco boats is admirable - Well done gentlemen.
About a year ago, by pure accident I ran across a photo and notice a difference on 40mm mounts. While looking for minor details as I was modifying the National WWII Museum’s poster for the PT 305 to its final configuration and paint scheme. I came across a photo showing a different guard railing and ammo round storage than I had noticed before or even aware of. It was apparently used on all the Med boats. Also while searching other photos and came a cross the English Channel photo of PT 515 with the jeep on it, and also noted the boat in the foreground had this same configuration.
To Tom’s credit his original build of the 518 clearly showed this difference.
For general reference, below are some sketches I made for myself while updating the poster and thought I would share:
Dick . . .
Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Mar 16, 2019 - 11:12am
Total Posts: 1417 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm
Great stuff. Thanks, Dick!
Will
Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Mar 16, 2019 - 12:43pm
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm
Thanks Dick for the info and illustrations.! Ron 34 and Ron 35 boats, however, did not have lightening holes in the 4 cm gun mount base. At least, I have never seen any in pics.
Regards,
Arjan
Posted By: Arjan Wiskerke | Posted on: Mar 16, 2019 - 1:51pm
Total Posts: 162 | Joined: Dec 22, 2018 - 12:04pm
I've never seen a photo where I could say there were no access holes. The image I posted was a cropped photo of my REFERENCE drawings, the bottom part shows the base styles I'v seen on Pacific boats and Med boats not sure what the Channel boats had. But I can't image they would leave all the heavy steel just sitting there weighing down the boat, or not providing an access hole to reach the mounting ring from below.
I was told many, many years ago that some bases had no holes - I Just haven't Seen Any Photo evidence. Below is the un-cropped photo image and some support photos for RON 15 and RON 22 include PT 305. I also have never seen any Armament drawings on any 40mm mount. The drawings are simply [b]eye-balled[/b]
[b][red]PT 305 - in the MED . . . [/red][/b]
[b][red]PT 305 - in the MED . . . [/red][/b]
[b][red]PT 212 - in the MED . . . [/red][/b]
[b][red]PT's RON 15 & RON 22 - in the MED . . . [/red][/b]
Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Mar 17, 2019 - 3:45pm
Total Posts: 1417 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm
Dick;
Awesome detective work!! Thanks for all you do!
Take care,
TED
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Mar 17, 2019 - 5:36pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
Really interesting Dick, I had noticed the triangular lightening holes before but what I hadn't realized is that there were also two different base shapes.
It seems that on many, if not the majority, of Ron 34/35 boats the right hand platform railing had been removed at some point. This pic shows that on this particular vessel the left side one had been removed. What is also of particular interest here (at least to me) is the litter basket stretcher .
Another pic showing the ammo clip storage :
Regards,
Arjan
Posted By: Arjan Wiskerke | Posted on: Mar 18, 2019 - 1:31am
Total Posts: 162 | Joined: Dec 22, 2018 - 12:04pm
Take two, I reduced the width of the hatch housing by 8 mm and increased that of the ready locker by some 5 mm :
Arjan
Posted By: Arjan Wiskerke | Posted on: Mar 18, 2019 - 5:36am
Total Posts: 162 | Joined: Dec 22, 2018 - 12:04pm
Nice work Dick and Arjan, lots of good info!
Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Mar 18, 2019 - 6:22am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am
Hi Jeff, thanks again for the drawings you sent me, they were really helpful. By the way, I had completely forgotten to scrutinize Stuart Hurley's fantastic PT 195 build on your site. Regarding his engine room hatch, it certainly looks like I've been reinventing the wheel [:-happy-:].
edit: Looks like this boat also had a Stokes stretcher on board :
Regards,
Arjan
Posted By: Arjan Wiskerke | Posted on: Mar 18, 2019 - 8:21am
Total Posts: 162 | Joined: Dec 22, 2018 - 12:04pm
Hi Arjan,
The engine hatch looks great.
cheers, Tom
Posted By: Tom dK | Posted on: Mar 18, 2019 - 12:54pm
Total Posts: 48 | Joined: Dec 27, 2018 - 7:09am
Does any one know what the base on PT-174s later bow mount 40mm looked like? It appears to be much lower then the latter stern mounts. I have read somewhere, it was an Australian Army Bofors, with either a home made shield or one cut down. Hard to tell with the few photos of her!
Posted By: Stearman | Posted on: Mar 18, 2019 - 8:40pm
Total Posts: 150 | Joined: Nov 1, 2017 - 9:38pm
Stearman;
It was round, field modified.
PT 174 Side elevation and deck plan Jan 1944:
Diagram from "Allied Coastal Forces of World War II: Vol. 2" by John Lambert and Al Ross ll
Take care,
TED
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Mar 19, 2019 - 8:23am
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
After working on this issue for awhile now, it is really hard to determine without a good well lite photograph of the gun and low enough to see the base to really make any discernible discovery. Some guns mount very high, yet others are more of a medium height. But, then there are the really low mounts that are nearly scrapping the deck. Hear are some photos that demonstrate the differences. These photos are from a FB Splinter Group, Ted, Pinterest, NARA and ???? somewhere from the net image searches.
PT 174
Splinter Group - Harold Eller
One of Ted’s Previous posts - Gun on Wooden Built-up Platform
Print For Reference
Ted’s Misc 40mm
40mm PT 305
Misc 40mm
Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Mar 19, 2019 - 10:54am
Total Posts: 1417 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm
Thanks Ted, the base looks to be about the right height. The shield though, is too tall. Dick, isn't that first photo PT-174 in her first configuration? Your next three photos look very close. Looking at the Australian trailer mounts, it looks about right. Keep in mind 174 already had a strengthened bow. Lucky for me, I am a long way off from actually building. Thanks for the help, I doubt my Italeri PT Boat will hold a candle to some of the boats I have seen here, but you have certainly inspired me to try a lot harder on the details.
Posted By: Stearman | Posted on: Mar 19, 2019 - 8:35pm
Total Posts: 150 | Joined: Nov 1, 2017 - 9:38pm
Stearman;
Yes you are correct, that is PT 174 in her first configuration, that 40MM was removed prior to shipment.
I would post the photos of PT 174 onboard USS Atascosa(AO-66), but the PT Gallery is saying the photo is too big.
You can veiw it and another photo here at Jeff Davidson's website:
[url]http://www.pt103.com/PT_Boat_Photos.html[/url]
Take care,
TED
PS: Also here:
[url]https://www.history.navy.mil/our-collections/photography/numerical-list-of-images/nara-series/19-n/19-N-40000/19-n-43373.html[/url]
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Mar 20, 2019 - 6:58am
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
That is strange Ted, some one else posted those photos on the sight, I know, because I saved them. Maybe, theirs were in a smaller size? Of course, those photos bring up the forbidden subject, did PT-174 still sport her zebra stripes when she had her 40mm installed in the Solomon's?
Posted By: Stearman | Posted on: Mar 20, 2019 - 8:03pm
Total Posts: 150 | Joined: Nov 1, 2017 - 9:38pm
Very interesting info on the 40mm Dick, thank you. [:-cheers-:]
Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Mar 21, 2019 - 3:09am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am
One more pic showing a Stokes stretcher. It also seems to show that the diameter of the squadron sign was about equal to the height of the call sign digits :
A Stokes stretcher in use :
Regards,
Arjan
Posted By: Arjan Wiskerke | Posted on: Mar 21, 2019 - 3:34am
Total Posts: 162 | Joined: Dec 22, 2018 - 12:04pm
Stearman;
That is debatable, When RON 10 reached the Solomons, It was quickly discovered that the supposed Adapter camouflage, actually attracted attention, big surprise!,
The basic concept of the camo scheme was to confuse as to speed and direction, not to conceal or blend in.The first units of RON 10 arrived in May 1943, by July The boats deck structures and deck were painted green, the hulls remained in Adapter camo. There is a belief that the white stripes were overpainted with a yellowish green or a Light green.
http://www.modelwarships.com/reviews/ships/misc/pc/35-pt-174-ss/feature.html
This model is similar, but for the striped cabins and the shielded 40MM. The artist took some "artistic license" here, which is fine.
Sometime between 6 November 1943 and Jan 1944, all remaining RON 10 boats were painted all Navy Green.
Take care,
TED
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Mar 21, 2019 - 8:55am
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
Thanks again Ted. I of course saw that model during my search. Interesting on the stripe, seems like yellow green would be the most likely color. Even a light green would probably blend in with the black at anything over a few yards. Most likely, when I build it, I will just paint it like the later photos, with roll off torpedoes. Still, black and yellow green stripes on the hull would be very striking to say the least!
Posted By: Stearman | Posted on: Mar 21, 2019 - 8:28pm
Total Posts: 150 | Joined: Nov 1, 2017 - 9:38pm
Hi Arjan,
I have some white decal sheets and a fixer fluid, so I can print them on a inkt jet printer.
I do the background in a matching colour to the model, so you don't end up with a white edge.
Your boat is named BOOMERANG ,do you know the font for the letters?
Here id did them the same as mine.
this is a paper test print for size ,but my inkt is running low so it's a bit bleak.
But size wise it should b e okay.
cheers, Tom
Posted By: Tom dK | Posted on: Mar 22, 2019 - 11:20am
Total Posts: 48 | Joined: Dec 27, 2018 - 7:09am
Hi Tom , that looks very professional ! I assume the letter type used for "Boomerang" was the same, what you've done looks great to me . I will drop you a mail.
Regards,
Arjan
Posted By: Arjan Wiskerke | Posted on: Mar 22, 2019 - 11:57am
Total Posts: 162 | Joined: Dec 22, 2018 - 12:04pm
Arjan;
The font is Brush Script MT.
Take care,
TED
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Mar 23, 2019 - 7:57am
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
Thanks Ted ! I've been trying to identify the boat with the shark's mouth. The distinguishing feature seems to be the narrow patch of dark paint on top of the radar dome..
The boat in the background seems to have a very similar patch of dark paint on her dome :
The only legible digit is 2 so it could either be PT 502 or PT 512., I think it's probably the latter but I only have one rather bad scan of PT 512 which doesn't show her radar dome clearly.
Regards,
Arjan
Posted By: Arjan Wiskerke | Posted on: Mar 23, 2019 - 11:59am
Total Posts: 162 | Joined: Dec 22, 2018 - 12:04pm
Arjan;
The painted top of the radome was common, this was so it would bled into the deck when the boat was viewed from a plane.
Take care,
TED
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Mar 23, 2019 - 5:43pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
Thing is that there appears to have been quite a bit of variation in the way the radomes had been painted. This variation may give some clues to identify individual boats. At some point e.g. PT 505 had a diagonal camo patch on its dome. At least three different paint schemes here :
I'm convinced this pic again shows the shark's mouth boat :
Regards,
Arjan
Posted By: Arjan Wiskerke | Posted on: Mar 24, 2019 - 1:17am
Total Posts: 162 | Joined: Dec 22, 2018 - 12:04pm
Arjan;
You maybe right, however, remember that the radome was a removable part, used just to protect the Parabola receiver from the elements, if it was damaged in any way, it went to the Squadron or base radar repair techs for repair and was replaced with another spare, so the boat remained operational.
Take care,
TED
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Mar 24, 2019 - 7:49am
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
Drew found a nice color photo of a 40mm being loaded, Ted ID'ed it as WWII in Color. on Twitter: Pictured above are rounds of a 40mm Bofors being loaded by Private Paul Kaiser, US Airbase, #England, 1943.
[url]https://twitter.com/WWIIinColor[/url]
Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Mar 25, 2019 - 5:05am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am
Hi gentlemen. I only know one pic showing the Parabola receiver you mention Ted. It also shows a similar vent used on the Elco chart house sides :
Regards,
Arjan
Posted By: Arjan Wiskerke | Posted on: Mar 25, 2019 - 11:35am
Total Posts: 162 | Joined: Dec 22, 2018 - 12:04pm
Thanks for posting the photo, Jeff, and for Ted for the I.D., and Dick for labeling it.
Since the guys were shirtless and had OD helmets, I though they might've been PT men, and since we we've been talking about PT 40 mm guns...
My mistake, though, as I told Ted -- they were on the other side of the world!
Posted By: Drew Cook | Posted on: Mar 25, 2019 - 5:30pm
Total Posts: 1306 | Joined: Oct 19, 2006 - 10:44am
You're welcome Drew, not a PT 40mm but a good color shot of the ammo for modelers!
I have a couple photos showing the dome's innards Arjan, I believe this is from the restored PT 305:
Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Mar 26, 2019 - 5:37am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am
Thanks for posting these pics Jeff .It's interesting to see what was actually inside the dome.
Regards,
Arjan
Posted By: Arjan Wiskerke | Posted on: Mar 26, 2019 - 9:00am
Total Posts: 162 | Joined: Dec 22, 2018 - 12:04pm
You're welcome Arjan, maybe a modeler will make use of them at some point.
Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Mar 27, 2019 - 4:00am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am
Using Dick's drawings I've built the loader's platform railing. The back rests of the seats also had a different construction but I'm not going to bother altering the original kit ones :
Ron 29 boats apparently also had this type of railing :(at least, those that had a Bofors gun):
Arjan
Posted By: Arjan Wiskerke | Posted on: Mar 28, 2019 - 9:24am
Total Posts: 162 | Joined: Dec 22, 2018 - 12:04pm
Hi Arjan,
I got the printer to work and made some decals .
Are you going to the Twenot meet in Nieuw Vennep?
cheers, Tom
Posted By: Tom dK | Posted on: Apr 6, 2019 - 11:09am
Total Posts: 48 | Joined: Dec 27, 2018 - 7:09am
Hi Tom, those decals really look the part ! Thanks a lot for your trouble. I've sent you an email.
Groet,
Arjan
Posted By: Arjan Wiskerke | Posted on: Apr 6, 2019 - 1:04pm
Total Posts: 162 | Joined: Dec 22, 2018 - 12:04pm
Nice work on the 40mm Arjan, and the decals Tom!
Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Apr 7, 2019 - 5:43am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am
Some pics of my progress, there is still a lot to be done but she's ready for her maiden voyage (at the coming weekend). I tried to copy the slightly faded colours of PT 505 :
Arjan
Posted By: Arjan Wiskerke | Posted on: Jun 19, 2019 - 5:54am
Total Posts: 162 | Joined: Dec 22, 2018 - 12:04pm
Well done Arjan, thank you for the update! [:-cheers-:]
Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Jun 20, 2019 - 6:34am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am
Hi Jeff, I applied some decals yesterday . Today I applied a clear coating with a spray can. Unfortunately, I managed to mess up the Echelon numbers and Italeri waterlevel marking . The solvent of the clear varnish was probably too aggressive because it caused the decals to blister [:-unhappy-:]. Fortnunately, Tom's decals were not affected.
Regards,
Arjan
Posted By: Arjan Wiskerke | Posted on: Jun 21, 2019 - 5:46am
Total Posts: 162 | Joined: Dec 22, 2018 - 12:04pm
Ouch, sorry to hear that. I'm glad Tom's decals made it, they look very nice! You two do excellent work, love all the added details and all the effort to do it right.
Stay away from angry birds, and fish that think it's tasty too! [:-happy2-:]
Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Jun 22, 2019 - 3:32am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am
Some pics taken on the water today, no close encounters of the animal kind [:-happy-:]. Hope to post some action photos or video later.
The model runs very well, it's much faster than my old PT model.
Regards,
Arjan
Posted By: Arjan Wiskerke | Posted on: Jun 22, 2019 - 8:46am
Total Posts: 162 | Joined: Dec 22, 2018 - 12:04pm
Arjan;
Great photos!
take care,
TED
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Jul 12, 2019 - 8:35pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
Thanks Ted, here's another one taken two weeks ago :
In the mean time I have added the deadlights to the deck. If I'm not mistaken there should be 1 more than provided in the Italeri PT 596 kit.
Apparently the torp heads of PT 515 had been adorned with shark mouths at some point :
I have been trying to reproduce these but painting them by hand in 1/35 scale is not easy (needless to say decals would be preferable).
Regards,
Arjan
Posted By: Arjan Wiskerke | Posted on: Jul 13, 2019 - 12:49am
Total Posts: 162 | Joined: Dec 22, 2018 - 12:04pm
Nice Arjan, thanks I've never seen that torpedo art before. Pretty fancy! I checked my image stash but couldn't find any other photos of the art.
Your boat should have 18 deck / dead lights according to Elco drawings. If I remember right, Italeri has them symmetrical on both sides but the starboard side has 2 less, near the forward turret:
[image]http://www.pt103.com/images/PT_Boat_Elco_103_Class_Deck_Dead_Light_Locations.jpg[/image]
Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Jul 14, 2019 - 4:12am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am
Thanks Jeff, the number and position of the dead lights of my PT 515 model are not quite accurate but I doubt if anyone will notice [:-happy-:].
The torp art reminds me of the artwork on PT 155 Dragon Lady :
By the way, I also like the artwork on PT 155's chart house :
http://www.navsource.org/archives/12/05155.htm
Regards,
Arjan
Posted By: Arjan Wiskerke | Posted on: Jul 14, 2019 - 9:30am
Total Posts: 162 | Joined: Dec 22, 2018 - 12:04pm
Yep except for the extras at the forward turret I doubt I'd notice!
Do you happen to have a more complete shot of the torpedo art on the 515? It looks to be really well done.
Yes the Dragon Lady art was nice, you can tell someone with artistic talent was around. Me, if I drew a cat I'd also have to write "CAT" under it so people would know what it was. One of my favorite chart house art is the "GALLOPING GUILLOTINE" on PT 192: [url]http://www.ptboatforum.com/cgi-bin/MB2/netboardr.cgi?fid=102&cid=101&tid=1810&pg=6&sc=20&x=0[/url]
Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Jul 15, 2019 - 3:55am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am
Nice pics Jeff, I hadn't seen these before. Unfortunately, the torpedo artwork on PT 515 is only partly visible in one frame. The smoke generator was apparently also painted in two tone camo :
Judging from the available pics, PT 513 was the only other boat with torpedoes, depth charges and smoke generator finished in two tone camo paint :
Regards,
Arjan
Posted By: Arjan Wiskerke | Posted on: Jul 15, 2019 - 9:04am
Total Posts: 162 | Joined: Dec 22, 2018 - 12:04pm
Thanks Arjan, interesting how the darker color blends jaggedly to the deck on the aft turret.
Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Jul 16, 2019 - 3:52am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am