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» Forum Category: PT Boats of WWII
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» Forum Name: PT Boats - General
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» Topic:
Toe rails for the new Revell Elco 80
http://www.ptboatforum.com/cgi-bin/MB2/netboardr.cgi?cid=101&fid=102&tid=4440
For those building the new 1/72nd Revell PT 109 kit, toe rails to replace the kits molded in ones are available: [url]https://www.shapeways.com/product/MAFZRLD6Y/toe-rail-72nd-elco-80-pt-boat?optionId=65338131[/url]
The drilling / placement jig added about $1.37 to the price but I think it worth the cost for ease in installing them accurately. I can add a set of just the rails if anyone would like to save some cash. See the images and text for how the jig is used.
Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Apr 25, 2018 - 11:51am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am
I have 3 sets on order. Thank you!
SteveS156
Posted By: SteveS156 | Posted on: Apr 26, 2018 - 7:04am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
Shapeways parts beat PE stuff every time, IMHO.
Posted By: Drew Cook | Posted on: Apr 26, 2018 - 5:29pm
Total Posts: 1306 | Joined: Oct 19, 2006 - 10:44am
Shapeways parts beat PE stuff every time, IMHO.
And coming from Jeff you know the part is going to be right! Nice work and the jig is a great idea! I'll have to get some of these.
Dave
David Waples
Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Apr 26, 2018 - 10:06pm
Total Posts: 1679 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm
Thanks for the support guys! [:-cheers-:]
Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Apr 27, 2018 - 12:35am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am
OK, I am an experienced modeler, and despite my 67 year age, still have all my faculties and skills. I cannot, however, figure out how to mount these rails. The pins have broken off all 3 rails in my order, and I still need guidance )New protective shipping packaging should be considered). Are the scallops between mounting points to be opened up with a sharp, new #11 blade? Not intuitively obvious to the most casual observer, as one of my old engineering professors would assert.
Gonzo
SteveS156
Posted By: SteveS156 | Posted on: May 2, 2018 - 1:12pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
I'm sorry to hear that Steve. The scallops aren't visible? They came out well on the test print I did but yours might be clogged with support wax. I did have a pin break, I made them thicker and shorter but obviously they are still weak... The channel they sit in should have protected them so if the rails were in 1 piece I don't think the packaging is the problem. I have no control over that by the way. Here's the test print I did:
The jig is designed to line up along the edge of the deck and be a guide for drilling. The drilling ears can also be snapped off and the inside edge of the jig used to draw a line where the outside edge of the rail should be:
I took the rails down, I think they are just too small and will cause more problems than they solve. Let me know if you'd like a refund, I'm not sure if it can be done through Shapeways but if you have a Paypal account I can send it to you through there.
Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: May 3, 2018 - 6:20am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am
Thanks, Jeff! What you picture is what I expected. This is not what Shapeways produced and billed me $29.27. They really let you down on this one! My e-mail address is stehlingsg@charter.net. Same for PayPal. If you send me your PM address, I can send them to you. I have had real problems with Shapeways lately, after several previous satisfactory experiences. My retirement budget appreciates your efforts to make this right.
SteveS156
Posted By: SteveS156 | Posted on: May 4, 2018 - 5:47am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
OK sent, let me know if there's any problem.
Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: May 4, 2018 - 2:00pm
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am
Hi Steve, I received the rails, thank you. I'm a bit confused, you mentioned that all 3 sets had the mounting pins broken off but none of the rails had been removed from their protective channels. I snapped off the 3 little retaining bars on top of the channel from the set with the broken end to remove the rails and inspected them. Other than the rails also having the ends broken off they look like they came out well. I gave the pins a reasonably good push but none broke off. Here's a few photos:
Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: May 11, 2018 - 11:21am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am
Hi, Jeff. As your photos show, there is no support wax in the scallops. I guess these are just beyond my modeling skills. Thanks for your response.
Steve
SteveS156
Posted By: SteveS156 | Posted on: May 12, 2018 - 5:42am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
Jeff,
These are really nice parts. I think there is confusion created by the base that is printed along with the parts. Now, I just need to figure out how to separate the parts from the base.
Bill
Bill Smallshaw
Posted By: smallwi | Posted on: May 16, 2018 - 12:29pm
Total Posts: 134 | Joined: Jun 21, 2007 - 3:02pm
Hi Bill, thank you! There are actually 2 sets in the channel, 1 solid and 1 with cutouts for the depth charge racks. Note that it is not where Revell puts the depth charges, it is farther back. I need to clarify the instructions.
The rails are not attached to the channel, they are held in place by 3 small bars going across the top. I was able to snap the bars off with my fingernail. Wiggle the top of the rails with a fingertip and / or / run a thin knife blade along the rails then push up slightly from the bottom at the pins with a toothpick or other small tool to loosen them up if needed. The ones that I removed came out pretty easily.
Dave pointed out a mistake I made in the jig, there is no hole for the molded in deck cleats so it can't sit flush with the deck.
Here's the instructions I had up before removing the part from view:
[green]This model is the toe / foot rails for an 80' Elco PT boat. It is made to Elco drawings and features accurately spaced pedestals between scallops. The pedestals are located over the boat's frames and bulkheads which means they are almost all differently spaced due to curvature and different frame / bulkhead spacings. The rails have 5 mounting pins and a jig for drilling their mounting holes. Included are full rails and a set with gaps for the depth charges mounted on PT 109. For the depth charge locations on PT 109, I came up with a different location than what the 2018 Revell kit has based on available images of PT 109. Please see here: [url]http://www.pt103.com/images/asst/PT_109_Depth_Charges_Location_Estimate.jpg[/url]
Preparation
The first step is to clean all parts thoroughly. Handle very carefully as the plastic is brittle. Please see the guide and links here: [url]http://www.pt103.com/3D_Printed_PT_Boat_Parts.html[/url]. For best painting results be sure to follow cleaning with a UV cure from a lamp with the correct output, or the sun.
Clip off mounting jig.
Clip off the retainers above the rails.
Carefully run a thin blade tip along the side of the rails to be sure they are free. Carefully push up the rails slightly from the bottom at the mounting pin locations. Do not attempt to remove the rails until all pins have been loosened.
Installation
Measure 1/3 (24 full scale inches) back from the bow and draw a line at a right angle to the boat's center line.
Align the notch on the jig with this line and tape into place. Make sure the outer edge of the jig is even with the outside edge of the deck. See the part render image above.
Drill mounting holes. Check the rail fit, the pins are very fragile so do not force them.
To mount the rails without drilling holes, you may also use the jig without the hole guides. The inboard edge of the jig is 0.155 (11 1/8 full scale) inboard from the outside edge of the deck, and even with the outboard edge of the rails. Carefully snap or cut off the half round ears of the mounting jig, and remove the pins from the rails. Draw a guide line along the inboard edge of the guide or use it for placement while gluing.[green]
Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: May 16, 2018 - 3:49pm
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am
Jeff,
These are really nice parts. I think there is confusion created by the base that is printed along with the parts. Now, I just need to figure out how to separate the parts from the base.
Bill
Bill Smallshaw
Posted By: smallwi | Posted on: May 20, 2018 - 5:08pm
Total Posts: 134 | Joined: Jun 21, 2007 - 3:02pm
Thank you Bill! I did a few renders to help see how the little buggers sit in the channel. The right set is the full rails, the left set has a section cut out for the depth charge chutes. The top image shows the retaining bars across the tops that are removed to get the rails out. The rails are not attached to the channel. I was able to snap the bars off with my fingernail. Wiggle the top of the rails with a fingertip. you should be able to see them move a bit. If not, run a thin knife blade along the rails. The second image is a view from the bottom showing the holes the pins stick through. Working from one end to the other, gently push the ends of the pins just a little bit to get the rails loose. Dave had some trouble with them sticking, if you have an ultrasonic cleaner it might help loosen the rails. Thanks to Dave's testing these for me I'm going to try to come up with a better design that won't be affected as much by Shapeways sometimes spotty cleaning. His rails also came from Utah, possibly from one of SW's partners.
Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: May 21, 2018 - 6:07am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am
Jeff,
These are really nice parts. I think there is confusion created by the base that is printed along with the parts. Now, I just need to figure out how to separate the parts from the base.
Bill
Bill Smallshaw
Posted By: smallwi | Posted on: May 21, 2018 - 7:13am
Total Posts: 134 | Joined: Jun 21, 2007 - 3:02pm
Ah so! A picture is worth a thousand words. The rails aren't attached to the base at all, except by the wonderful wax material that supports the print.
It seemed like on the print I had that the forward end was attached to the base with resin. The very end with the pin clearly broke off just after the pin. Is it possible to add a little more separation? Additional cleaning is really key. And I think post cleaning after separation is important as well.
I intend to knock this out over the weekend. Stay tuned.
Dave
David Waples
Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: May 25, 2018 - 4:35am
Total Posts: 1679 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm
Yes I plan on a total redesign so the part floats in a cage with plenty of clearance. Also with drainage holes on the bottom. I see I got lucky with the test print I did. Thank you again David for all the help you've given me designing and testing various parts!
Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: May 25, 2018 - 7:14am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am
Jeff,
Sorry about the multiple posts previous, an anomaly thanks to Safari browser :-). Thanks posting the instructions, clarifies some mysteries for me, like ‘now, what am I supposed to do with this jig?’ :-). Hopefully my Revell kits have arrived this week and I can contemplate actually doing a build rather than collecting stash material. Thanks to your parts I almost feel like I did 46 years ago when my father brought home the original PT 109 kit. Which by the way started my complete obsession with palstic ship models.
Bill
Bill Smallshaw
Posted By: smallwi | Posted on: Jun 1, 2018 - 11:17am
Total Posts: 134 | Joined: Jun 21, 2007 - 3:02pm
Very cool Bill, I hope you enjoy the build!
Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Jun 2, 2018 - 5:34pm
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am
I redesigned the rails to make them easier to install by using clamps that position and hold them in place while glueing. The ear then goes against the side guard is slightly hollowed to let it sit at right angles to the curves. A big Thank You to Dave for his help and encouragement, and for taking them out for a test drive. The painted install was from the original but the rails are the same:
Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Feb 29, 2020 - 10:23am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am
These are a big improvement over the first edition. They came out of the frame clean from Shapeways. But the key are the jigs that maintain the perfect curvature of the hull. In my mind this is a focal point on the model. They are more accurate than the Eduard photo etch parts and thick enough so that extra thin CA glue flows beautifully under the flat contact points and holds them tight to the deck. I highly recommend them.
Dave
David Waples
Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Mar 7, 2020 - 4:30pm
Total Posts: 1679 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm