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ť Forum Name: PT Boats - General
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ť Topic: PT 309/ Corsica
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Hello every body
This is my first message on the forum and i write you from France :-)
I am making some research about the RSI Mas boat in 1944.
As you know, a very well know fact is the PT-309 capture of the MAS 562 june 29th 1944.
After the fight the italian boat was drive to Bastia harbour (Corsica). There, we only know two very bad pictures.

If the combat report is well know, i am searching for many years the "possibly" intelligence report about the boat. In case of captured material this kind of report were written with many details (crew, description of the boat, paint, weapons, and sometimes pictures...).
I hope that one could have been written in this case...
By the way after many research (the is nothing in Fold 3 for example), i am unable to find where he can be (but i am not very easy with Us archives).
So, that's why i nee your help :-)
May be one of you know an american reasearcher who can help me... or may be know where this kind of report are...
Any help is very very welcome

Thanks a lot to all ! :-)

Best

Matt

Posted By: Mattcom | Posted on: Feb 12, 2018 - 1:19am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

Hi Matt and welcome to the forum. I did not realize a MAS was captured by an American PT Boat. Thank you for sharing that information with us. Hopefully somebody in the group can help you find what you're looking for.
Dave

David Waples

Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Feb 12, 2018 - 7:29pm
Total Posts: 1679 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm

No reports came up on this site but I found one fairly decent high-res photo:

[url]https://www.history.navy.mil/our-collections/photography/numerical-list-of-images/nhhc-series/nh-series/NH-48000/NH-48574.html[/url]

Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Feb 13, 2018 - 6:12am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am

Hi
Big big thanks Jeff !

Matt

Posted By: Mattcom | Posted on: Feb 13, 2018 - 9:36am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

Matt;
Welcome! Yes MAS 562 was captured by PT 308 and PT 309, (PT 308, LT Charles Murphy Skipper/ENS Vern Peak Exec, was the lead boat with OTC LT. John Newell on board. PT 309 was trail boat LTjg Wayne Barber Skipper/LTjg William F. "Bill" Pleasants Exec),
on night of 29/30 June 1944 off the northeast coast of Elba. The action is written up in At Close Quarters by CAPT Robert J. Bulkely Jr. page 320-321, with the same photo Jeff posted. After a 10 mile gun battle one of the two MAS boats lost speed. When the PT's closed the MAS, the crew (14 Germans and RSI Italians)went over the side in a life raft, the crew included the German Naval Commander of La Spezia. The boat was on fire so PT 308 and PT 309, with their prisoners left the boat to burn and sink. An aircraft reported it still floating the next day, so PT 306 (LT Thomas Creede Skipper/LTjg Edward Goweg Exec), went out and towed it back to Bastia.
I don't know if a specific evaluation report was done on this boat. If it is in the after action report or the intelligence report, it might not be more than just a few paragraphs.
Hope this helps.
Take care,
TED

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Feb 13, 2018 - 12:05pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

I remember on the Old Defenders of America Naval Museum website for PT309 had several photos of the MAS and even some photos developed from a captured camera taken off the MAS boat that showed the German crew doing various things and resting eating etc. I may have saved some of these photos on my computer at home, When I get off work I can look through them to see if I can find any and can send them to you.
Jerry

Jerry Gilmartin
PT658 Crewman
Portland OR

Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Feb 13, 2018 - 2:26pm
Total Posts: 1472 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm

Hi
@ Ted : thanks a lot for this details !
@ Jerry : Thanks a lot Jerry !
I have tried to contact them after seeing this page many years ago :
http://www.icsm.it/regiamarina/ohfrankie.htm
Unfortunately, I had no answer...
I hoped to find the picture there in high resolution...
Jerry, you learn me that the PT crew also captured a camera... Fantastic !
If you find them it will be Christmas !
As you, as soon as i am back from work i will give you more detail about the capture from italian sources.

I only know two other pictures of MAS 562 - Unfortunately only in low res

Big big thanks to all !

Best

Matt

Posted By: Mattcom | Posted on: Feb 14, 2018 - 1:19am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

Matt,
I found several photos of the MAS Boat crew from the captured camera and a few others on the old DOANM website.. I cannot post photos any more so I will email them to Dick and maybe he will be gracious enough to post them for me.
Jerry

Jerry Gilmartin
PT658 Crewman
Portland OR

PHOTOS posted for Jerry - All from the old Defenders of America Naval Museum website, and these were taken from and credited to: LT Bill Pleasants photo album.

LT Bill Pleasants photo album

LT Bill Pleasants photo album

Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Feb 16, 2018 - 10:30pm
Total Posts: 1472 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm

Hi Jerry
It's absolutely fantastic !!
Thanks thanks a lot !!

BEst

Matt

Posted By: Mattcom | Posted on: Feb 17, 2018 - 12:56am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

Please see Jerry's post above for photos.

Dick . . . .

Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Feb 17, 2018 - 7:46am
Total Posts: 1417 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm

Thank you Jerry and Dick! That cartoon is enough to give you nightmares...

Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Feb 17, 2018 - 10:22am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am

Thanks a lot again !
All this pictures gives perfect view of MAS 562 !!

Matt

Posted By: Mattcom | Posted on: Feb 17, 2018 - 10:47am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

Interesting boat compared to some of the other examples I've seen.

At this time they did not have the red and white identification markings on the bow. Does anyone know the history of these identification markings?

They painted over the three main window pains on the front of the cockpit where those vents are located.

The typical roll off depth charge system they had is replaced by two single roll off depth charges (US Navy style). That seems unusual from other examples I've seen.

The smoke screen system seems to be removed.

The two poles that look like telephone poles (no idea what they are for) are not on this boat.

And of course the torpedoes are launched or were not loaded at the time of capture.

From what I've read this boat lost it's engine power and surrendered. Doesn't look like she put up any kind of fight. Does anyone know?

Dave

David Waples

Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Feb 18, 2018 - 6:41am
Total Posts: 1679 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm

Dave;
for full account read my earlier post.
As for the aerial recognition symbols this was standard for MED axis forces, The Italian battleships ROMA, ITALIA ( originally named Littorio had bow and stern marked like this), ANDREA DORIA, AND VITTORIO VENETO had Their forecasle's painted like this, As did many Cruisers and destoyers. I have also seen Schnellboots with this on the forecastle.
Unfortunately, this also made for great aerial targeting, as the Germans attacked the sortieing now Free Italian Fleet while originally heading to La Maddelena, but then altered course Malta on 9 September 1943, to join Allies.
The Luftwaffe sent 3 Dornier Do 217-K2s armed with Fritz-X radio-controlled bombs to attack the ships. ROMA( 1,352 men lost, 596 survivors)was hit by 2 Fritz-X bombs and sank. ITALIA was near miss astern which jammed her rudder.
Hope this helps.
Take care,
TED

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Feb 18, 2018 - 10:10am
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

Dave;
for full account read my earlier post.
As for the aerial recognition symbols this was standard for MED axis forces, The Italian battleships ROMA, ITALIA ( originally named Littorio had bow and stern marked like this), ANDREA DORIA, AND VITTORIO VENETO had Their forecasle's painted like this, As did many Cruisers and destoyers. I have also seen Schnellboots with this on the forecastle.
Unfortunately, this also made for great aerial targeting, as the Germans attacked the sortieing now Free Italian Fleet while originally heading to La Maddelena, but then altered course Malta on 9 September 1943, to join Allies.
The Luftwaffe sent 3 Dornier Do 217-K2s armed with Fritz-X radio-controlled bombs to attack the ships. ROMA( 1,352 men lost, 596 survivors)was hit by 2 Fritz-X bombs and sank. ITALIA was near miss astern which jammed her rudder.
Hope this helps.
Take care,
TED

Thanks for that Ted. I completely missed your post.

I'm particularly interested in the depth charge rack on the stern. I don't think I've ever seen these on axis boats. Perhaps I need to look a little harder.

Both sides certainly used recognition symbols. Our boats had big white stars painted on their foredeck.

[:-bigeyes2-:]

David Waples

Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Feb 18, 2018 - 10:32am
Total Posts: 1679 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm

Matt,

The War Diary of 'Commander Boat Squadrons, Eighth Fleet, U.S. Naval
Forces, Northwest African Waters' includes all operations of Ron's 15,22 & 29.

There is slight mention of the MAS capture, but it does say that " All documents
and material of intelligence value were turned over to the Bastia intelligence
pool".

I would speculate that there is a report somewhere in the Archives, but where is the question.

Steve

Posted By: Nuge210 | Posted on: Feb 23, 2018 - 8:38am
Total Posts: 323 | Joined: Jun 4, 2008 - 7:50am

Hi Steve
Yes somewhere... Despite my research (from France anyway not very simple...) I am, as you, unable to say where these reports could be.
Another new information, the MAS 562 was quickly give to the Italian co-beligerant navy (the one who fight with allies).

@David
All the MAS who saw action with X MAS were modified.
- Smoke generator removed
- Mine launcher removed, remplaced by two simple rack with only one mine on each side
At the moment i do not know the exact mine type, but it seems to be a classical italian mine, usined all along ww2
- On some MAS, from one to three 12,7mm Breda Safat were added on light tripod.

For the camouflage, the 562 seems to be the only one to still have a "splinter" camouflage (hard edge), most of the other were simply light grey.
No other recognition marking for the X MAS boat.

Matt

Posted By: Mattcom | Posted on: Feb 23, 2018 - 9:32am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

Thank you Matt.
So at the time the boat was captured it's possible it had all the original equipment on board?

Do you know if the red and white recognition markings were removed when turned over to the Italian co-beligerant navy?

Thanks again Matt! This is an interesting discussion.
Dave

David Waples

Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Feb 24, 2018 - 5:03am
Total Posts: 1679 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm

Virus Warning...
If you click down into the pictures in www.serving.com in this thread you will pick up a virus. I was able to clean it from my Mac with no harm but wanted you all to be aware.
Dave

David Waples

Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Feb 24, 2018 - 5:08am
Total Posts: 1679 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm