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» Forum Name: PT Boats - General
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» Topic:
40mm Bofors Guns on PTs
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This may seem a silly question but since I firmly belive there are no silly questions just silly answers; here you are:
Later PT boats and retrofitted early ones had a 40mm Bofors as stern gun.
Many of those visible on pictures show the railing with reay ammo and obviousely are 40mm M1 guns on M3 carriages.
Some guns show no railing-for example PT195- were tthose M3 carriages without railing or M2s?
The "army" stile sights on PT195's gun would support this hypothesis( M1 guns on M2 carriages), but I'd like to know the other member's opinion.[:-cheers-:]
Daniele Kläy
Posted By: Daniele Klay | Posted on: Jan 20, 2018 - 5:54am
Total Posts: 126 | Joined: Jun 23, 2015 - 12:43pm
Daniele;
Allied Coastal Forces VOL ll, page 224-225.
The 40MM MK3 is the Navy version of the Army 40MM M1, on an M3 carriage. RON 12 was the first to take these to the South West Pacific. Their 40MM's were installed, stateside, in either in Bayonne or Brooklyn. That aft railing you mention was removable, some crews removed it to speed up loading from the main 40mm ammo box, and ease of getting onto the loader platform.
RON 21 did some kind of cumshaw deal and got their 40MM's from the Royal Australian Navy.
Take care,
TED
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Jan 20, 2018 - 9:51am
Total Posts: 3083 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
Thanks a lot Ted, I don't want to question Allied Costal Forces Vol II as a source,but some details just don't add up:
The Mk3 40mm was a M1 gun on a M3 carriage with rear rail,no power traverse/elevation,no trigger for the loader, Mk 6 direct "iron" sights.
Some early boats had this gun mounted:
So the question is. was this arrangement a Mk3 gun with rear rail removed and M3 sight fitted or a straight M1 gun on M2 carriage?
Greetings
Posted By: Daniele Klay | Posted on: Jan 21, 2018 - 5:24am
Total Posts: 126 | Joined: Jun 23, 2015 - 12:43pm
Daniele;
I think I have reached the limit of my 40MM carriage knowledge. I have used the MK3 and the MK 3 MOD 7.
The MK 3, the carriage weights 1035 LBS and the Gun with barrel weights 1015 lbs, total fitted out with ammo 2275 lbs.@@
I think a few things were involved here.
1.If this is not a RON 12 photo, It maybe the way, they were received from the Army, after removal from the trailer,
2.I do know everything was removable. It is possible since this looks like an early boat, in the naked guy photo, and the frame is just tubing, that the platform was removed,
3.Early boats were more concerned with weight and speed, The removal of tubes allowed for the 40MM. An ELCO having been in the water for several weeks with 40MM on the stern could make a sustained 38.5 knots.*** However, in this case I think it was just more convenient for the crew.
4. But with RON 12 boats, I think they removed the platform. As I detailed in an earlier post, RON 12, other than their development of the roll off torpedo rack, was into removing stuff, they removed most of the aft depression rails and removed or modified the forward ones, Since they used the 20MM and MK 12 scarf ring mount in the turrets, the railings were more of an obstruction, than an aid.
Take care,
TED
*** REF: pg 161 U.S. Small Combatants, Norman Friedmann.
@@ REF: pg 445 U.S. Small Combatants, Norman Friedmann.
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Jan 21, 2018 - 10:26am
Total Posts: 3083 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
The M1 gun / M3 mount for reference:
Looks like the one on the 195 except for the sight and railing:
Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Jan 21, 2018 - 11:42am
Total Posts: 2202 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am
I have noticed the sights are different as well. On one of the illustrations it calls out an "azimuth" sight, which looks like 3 vertical bars and not the spider web. (It is used for turning the gun side to side, where the spider web is for elevating the barrel vertically) I wonder which gun mod used which sights.
Jerry Gilmartin
PT658 Crewman
Portland OR
Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Jan 22, 2018 - 1:20pm
Total Posts: 1490 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm
Didn't RON 10 boats use Australian Army 40mm mounts? I have wanted to convert the Italeri 1/35 PT-109 into PT-174 after she arrived in the Solomon Islands. As a side question, does any one know if the 174 kept her zebra scheme, or was she repainted after her damage from the sinking Stanvac Manila?
Posted By: Stearman | Posted on: Jan 22, 2018 - 7:39pm
Total Posts: 151 | Joined: Nov 1, 2017 - 9:38pm
Stearman;
The Adapter scheme on RON 10 boats only lasted a short while out in the warzone. It was modified to Green decks and superstructure light green and black stripes on hull which was not very successful either 20 July PT 164, PT 166, PT 168 were returning in the morning and were bombed by US B-25's losing PT 166, and damaging the other two. 164 was destroyed later in 1 Aug Japanese bombing raid, On 1 Nov PT 167 performing escort duty was attacked by 12 Japanese torpedo planes and torpedo went through bow, damaged but survived. RON 10 crews thought the paint scheme attracted attention. By late Nov-Dec 1943, all RON 10 boats were repainted. Here are some photos of PT 174 for you: http://www.navsource.org/archives/12/05174.htm
Take care,
TED
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Jan 23, 2018 - 8:38am
Total Posts: 3083 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
Any idea as to the date when the 40mm was added to the bow, in the combat zone, as apposed to the Elco mount state side?
Posted By: Stearman | Posted on: Jan 23, 2018 - 9:53pm
Total Posts: 151 | Joined: Nov 1, 2017 - 9:38pm
At ELCO:
They did remove the shielding around the gun prior to shipment. In photos of USS Atascosa (AO-66)the 40 MM was removed for shipment. Then reinstalled when they reached Noumea after repair. LINK: https://www.history.navy.mil/our-collections/photography/numerical-list-of-images/nara-series/19-n/19-N-40000/19-n-43374.html
Later, in 1945 the 40MM was removed and a Thunderbolt mount was fitted on the stern.
Here is a link to a outstanding 1/35th scale build of PT 174: http://www.modelwarships.com/reviews/ships/misc/pc/35-pt-174-ss/feature.html
Take care,
TED
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Jan 24, 2018 - 4:27pm
Total Posts: 3083 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
That is interesting. I have seen these photos before, but did not have any information about which 40mm she shipped after arrival in the combat zone. So the 174 did operate with the zebra paint and the bow 40mm. I wounder if the crew added the shield to the mount at that time, and was it zebra painted also? I think the 174 might get the award for most changes in armament of any of the boats!
Posted By: Stearman | Posted on: Jan 24, 2018 - 7:31pm
Total Posts: 151 | Joined: Nov 1, 2017 - 9:38pm
Stearman;
All RON 10 boats were painted in the Adapter Camouflage, To make things more interesting on each boat the Starboard side did not match the Port side, and no two boats were painted alike. PT 163-174, 12 completely different patterns.
Take care,
TED
This photo is from 20 July 1943, PT 166 has been bombed and shot up by Army B-25's. PT 164 is standing by to pick up survivors. PT 168 is out of the photo. As you can see here, the deck is now painted dark green(Navy Green).
BTW: RON 15 had PT 207 and PT 208 painted in Adapter Camo. RON 22 had PT 306 painted in a version of the Adapter camo. These were Mediterranean boats
TED.
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Jan 24, 2018 - 8:26pm
Total Posts: 3083 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
Received portions of PT-174's deck log from the late Alex Johnson some years ago.
2/11/1943 At Elco PT-174, work started on boat to remove 40mm
5/24/1943 PT-174 resting on cradle aboard USS Stanvac Manila when this ship was torpedoed. PT-174 floated free damaging hull, wheels and shafts. Was towed to Noumea, New Caledonia.
5/28/1943 was towed to USS Argonne AG-31 for repairs.
6/11-18/1943 Moored alongside USS Promethus, SO type Radar installed, adjusted and inspected.
9/10/1943 PT-174 went into drydock at Tulagi
9/11-21/1943 PT-174 received new engines and installed a 40mm gun.
Years ago 174 crew members recalled that the gun was on the bow until June 1944 when the 40 was remounted on the stern and a 37mm was fitted on the bow.
As Ted mentioned a quad 20mm Thunderbolt replaced the stern 40 in April 1945.
Hope this helps
Wayne Traxel
Posted By: Wayne Traxel | Posted on: Jan 25, 2018 - 2:43pm
Total Posts: 248 | Joined: Oct 11, 2006 - 5:40am
According to this sight, http://www.ptboatworld.com/PT_Boat_Info/PT174.htm 174 did not have the factory 40mm mounted when she went into dry dock for repairers. This makes sense, since even if the 40mm was sent, it would be on the bottom of the ocean along with the Stanvac! Sounds about right that an Army mount was used. As to the zebra colors, black and what? Some say white, some say blue grey, some say they were painted over with green, various shades described. One veteran swore the white actually had a pink hue to it! The film of 174 on patrol is most certainly green, so maybe that is the version to model.
Posted By: Stearman | Posted on: Jan 25, 2018 - 9:01pm
Total Posts: 151 | Joined: Nov 1, 2017 - 9:38pm
Stearman;
All those colors are actually right. But... not all together. The Pink Adapter was only on RON 15 boats 207 and 208, for a short period of time, They were originally painted similar to below. The pinkish hue of the white you mentioned on the RON 10 boats may have been the way the paint was fading.
Use the photos of the Adapter scheme in this thread as a reference. in the photos of PT 166 and PT 164, where you see "darker" lighter stripes that was originally a light blue gray. This is known as counter shading. This "may" have been changed to gray after the white stripes where repainted greenish yellow.
Here is an excellent example I found on pinterest, this is acurite for the way the scheme was originally applied to PT 170:
Take care;
TED
P,S, The scheme was NOT applied to the deck. That was painted USN Deck Gray 20-B, as well as the top of the dayroom and top of the charthouse.
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Jan 29, 2018 - 6:00am
Total Posts: 3083 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
As for the Pink, I believe it was related to the Brits use of the famous (or infamous) "Mountbatten Pink". What I heard is that studies were performed showing that in times of dusk and dawn and haze, the Mountbatten pink blended in to the horizon better than any other color. Interesting.
Jerry Gilmartin
PT658 Crewman
Portland OR
Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Jan 29, 2018 - 11:28am
Total Posts: 1490 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm
Thanks Ted. I think I am leaning more and more towards a green 174! But who knows, Right now I am eyeball deep into a Victorian house renovation! So a bought all I can afford right now is dreams.
Posted By: Stearman | Posted on: Jan 29, 2018 - 9:17pm
Total Posts: 151 | Joined: Nov 1, 2017 - 9:38pm
A while back, someone posted photos of RON 10 boats on board the Stanvac Manila. Please, do not post the photos, I already have those! What I need, is the link to the thread. I forgot to copy and paste the position of the boats on her deck. Thanks for the help!
Posted By: Stearman | Posted on: Feb 6, 2018 - 6:54pm
Total Posts: 151 | Joined: Nov 1, 2017 - 9:38pm
Stearman;
Not Stanvac Manila but USS Atascosa (AO-66), carrying the first division of RON 10.: http://www.navsource.org/archives/09/19/19066.htm
Take care
TED
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Feb 6, 2018 - 8:11pm
Total Posts: 3083 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
Tthese descriptions might be the ones you are looking for. Once again Ted's vast knowledge comes through!:
Per Ted Walther:
Forward Port PT 167 (beehive radar SCR 517)
Forward Starboard PT 171
Aft Port PT 168
Aft Starboard PT 174
Title: USS Atascosa (AO-66)
Description: Starboard quarter view of USS Atascosa (AO-66) underway in light load condition with camouflaged PT boats as deck cargo fore and aft off the Norfolk Navy Yard, Portsmouth, VA, on 14 March 1943. She was the former S.S. Esso Columbia.
[url]http://www.history.navy.mil/our-collections/photography/numerical-list-of-images/nara-series/19-n/19-N-40000/19-n-43373.html[/url]
Per Ted Walther:
Forward Port PT 167 (beehive radar SCR 517)
Forward Starboard PT 171
Aft Port PT 168
Aft Starboard PT 174
Title: USS Atascosa (AO-66)
Description: Starboard bow view of USS Atascosa (AO-66) underway in light load condition with camouflaged PT boats as deck cargo fore and aft off the Norfolk Navy Yard, Portsmouth, VA, on 14 March 1943. She was the former S.S. Esso Columbia. Note the lines at her bow. She seems to be streaming paravanes.
[url]http://www.history.navy.mil/our-collections/photography/numerical-list-of-images/nara-series/19-n/19-N-40000/19-n-43374.html[/url]
Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Feb 7, 2018 - 8:01am
Total Posts: 2202 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am
Thanks Ted and Jeff. There was where my confusion came from! The Atascosa must have taken Ron 10 down to Panama, then, after training the Stanvac Manila took them to New Caledonia, where she was torpedoed, and the 174 crew had there first big test.
Posted By: Stearman | Posted on: Feb 7, 2018 - 7:46pm
Total Posts: 151 | Joined: Nov 1, 2017 - 9:38pm
