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» Forum Category: PT Boats of WWII
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» Forum Name: PT Boats - General
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» Topic: Just Purchased PT Boat Presentation Piece
http://www.ptboatforum.com/cgi-bin/MB2/netboardr.cgi?cid=101&fid=102&tid=4313



I was very excited when I saw this on EBAY this morning so I worked out a deal with the guy and made the purchase. I just had to have it.
 
Looking to see if anyone might have any idea what the large B on this presentation piece indicates, Hmmmm I wonder.

jGxof.jpg

jGRl6.jpg

jGIrj.jpg


Frank



Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Sep 1, 2017 - 10:15pm
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am



More information on the bottom of the piece reads:
Apollo, EPBM, Bernard Rice & Son Inc. 6418/2 S&G Gump Co. Not sure this helps but it is something.



Posted By: Frank Andruss | Posted on: Sep 4, 2017 - 3:39pm
Total Posts: 3964 | Joined: Feb 9, 2007 - 11:41am



Nice catch Frank! As far as the letter "B" I don't think this was meant for Bulkeley, (besides, wasnt he in RON3 and NOT RON1?) That is what came to mind as soon as I saw the letter "B". I found the name of the RON1 CO at Commissioning was LT Earl Caldwell. Also, I wonder if there is a date associated with when the vase was purchased? If it was 1944 that may be the RON1 that was in Pearl Harbor with PT24 and PT27. That was one of our PT658 veterans John Akin's old boat. They were also up in Alaska and Seattle before returning to Pearl. I wonder if Charlie or Ted could find a list of all the RON1 Squadron COs and if any of them begin with the letter "B"?
Jerry

Jerry Gilmartin
PT658 Crewman
Portland OR

Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Sep 4, 2017 - 7:09pm
Total Posts: 1469 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm



Jerry;
There were no RON 1 CO's whose last name began with B. However, if it was given to an Officer as a farewell gift(Transferred to another Squadron), there are some possibilities. .
Take care,
TED



Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Sep 4, 2017 - 11:18pm
Total Posts: 3058 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am



"B" for "Bulkeley" !!!



Posted By: nahma | Posted on: Sep 4, 2017 - 11:41pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered



All good thoughts, I have someone working on it as well, I am in hopes we can crack the big B on this presentation piece. Detective work is never easy.



Posted By: Frank Andruss | Posted on: Sep 5, 2017 - 3:07am
Total Posts: 3964 | Joined: Feb 9, 2007 - 11:41am



Of course, B could be someone outside of PT Boats. Something given by the officers of RON 1 to maybe the owner of their favorite bar.

Charlie

Posted By: 29navy | Posted on: Sep 5, 2017 - 3:17am
Total Posts: 598 | Joined: Dec 28, 2006 - 3:02pm



That's for sure I mean doesn't have to be someone in the PT SERVICE like you mentioned Charlie. Hoping we might find out down the road, but if not it is an awesome piece of PT BOAT HISTORY that I will cherish forever.



Posted By: Frank Andruss | Posted on: Sep 5, 2017 - 5:37am
Total Posts: 3964 | Joined: Feb 9, 2007 - 11:41am



By the way the piece was found in a second hand shop in Seattle Washington.



Posted By: Frank Andruss | Posted on: Sep 5, 2017 - 6:30am
Total Posts: 3964 | Joined: Feb 9, 2007 - 11:41am



That makes sense Frank, since RON1 was sent to Seattle for repairing PT24 and PT27 after the fiasco of the Aleutians. It seems that 77 foot Elcos were not very well suited for service in the frigid northern waters off Alaska, and of the 6 boats sent there, I think 4 were scrapped or sunk from the weather, and the remaining 2 boats (24 and 27) were sent to Seattle to be repaired. This is where John Akin reported aboard the PT27 and met his wife to be, Elsie. So maybe they all hung out at someplace in Seattle while repairs were in progres?
Jerry

Jerry Gilmartin
PT658 Crewman
Portland OR

Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Sep 5, 2017 - 8:48am
Total Posts: 1469 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm



Were the boats repaired at the Bremerton Navy Yard???



Posted By: alross2 | Posted on: Sep 5, 2017 - 11:04am
Total Posts: 993 | Joined: Oct 30, 2006 - 8:19pm



That could be it, or maybe somewhere near Ballard Locks (North of Seattle, Lake Union)? I think Ted has more info. I will also ask Chuck Fowler, who wrote a book about the Puget Sound military during WW2.
Jerry

Jerry Gilmartin
PT658 Crewman
Portland OR

Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Sep 5, 2017 - 1:02pm
Total Posts: 1469 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm



Chip Marshall is also doing some digging about this presentation piece. Ted also thinks it very well could be Brooklyn Navy Yard officers Club.



Posted By: Frank Andruss | Posted on: Sep 5, 2017 - 1:43pm
Total Posts: 3964 | Joined: Feb 9, 2007 - 11:41am



Hello,

How tall is this pitcher? Sure look nice and well taken care of.


Maybe the "B" might be a nick name.

Bill P Reese

Posted By: billpr | Posted on: Sep 5, 2017 - 1:45pm
Total Posts: 83 | Joined: Mar 19, 2017 - 4:34pm



The presentation piece stands roughly 14 inches high.



Posted By: Frank Andruss | Posted on: Sep 5, 2017 - 9:23pm
Total Posts: 3964 | Joined: Feb 9, 2007 - 11:41am



Quite the puzzle with such an abbreviated name. Unless they weren't allowed to name names due to PT secrecy but that doesn't really make much sense. I hope you can track it down Frank.




Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Sep 6, 2017 - 6:08am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am



We seem to be getting closer Jeff, just hoping we can turn up some concrete evidence to support what we think it might be.



Posted By: Frank Andruss | Posted on: Sep 6, 2017 - 8:32am
Total Posts: 3964 | Joined: Feb 9, 2007 - 11:41am



Frank,

I don't know if you've researched the markings on the bottom yet, but here's what I found. EPBM means electro-plated base metal and it may be part of a British marking system that identifies the material used. Apollo was a design studio run by Bernard Rice & Son, Inc. in New York. The numbers 6418/2 resemble catalog numbers for other Apollo/Rice & Son items for sale online, but I can't find anything with those specific numbers. There are a lot of their products for sale online and they were in business at the time the inscription was likely done and on into the 1950's. That part of the markings would possibly indicate that the pitcher is a stock catalog item from Rice & Son in New York.

It gets interesting for the S&G Gump Co. marking because that's the name of a company run by Solomon and Gustave Gump in San Francisco. From what I can find online they would qualify as "jewelers" although their main line of business would seem to be gold gilded picture frames. There's limited information online about S&G Gump (at least so far) but it doesn't look like they made the pitcher itself.

Maybe S&G Gump did the inscription and added their name on the bottom of the vase? Do the markings look like they were done at different times? Maybe you could post a picture of the bottom?

Randy McConnell (Randall J. McConnell III)

Posted By: PRJM3 | Posted on: Sep 6, 2017 - 10:00am
Total Posts: 94 | Joined: May 25, 2009 - 2:47pm



Thanks for the detective work Randy, I have sent you a photo of the bottom on your E mail.



Posted By: Frank Andruss | Posted on: Sep 6, 2017 - 1:46pm
Total Posts: 3964 | Joined: Feb 9, 2007 - 11:41am



Al I believe you are correct, the boats were fitted out there before proceeding to the Aleutians.



Posted By: Frank Andruss | Posted on: Sep 6, 2017 - 3:52pm
Total Posts: 3964 | Joined: Feb 9, 2007 - 11:41am



Randy,
Looking at the photo of the bottom, it does look like the Engraved markings are different angles so that may mean they were done after the makers markings. The Gump markings are completely different.

Jerry Gilmartin
PT658 Crewman
Portland OR

Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Sep 10, 2017 - 10:56am
Total Posts: 1469 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm



In looking at the underside of the piece more closely Jerry, the Gump stamp looks as though it was added at a later date, no doubt about it. The font is different as well.



Posted By: Frank Andruss | Posted on: Sep 11, 2017 - 9:53pm
Total Posts: 3964 | Joined: Feb 9, 2007 - 11:41am



Yes, looking at the picture that Frank sent to me it does look like the Gump markings were done at a different time than the Apollo/Rice & Sons Markings. The Apollo markings and the Rice & Sons markings are very well aligned with each other and have the appearance of being done at the same time. As I previously mentioned, Apollo was a design house run by Rice & Sons so it's pretty much the same company.

The Apollo/Rice & Sons and Gump markings look like they were done with a stamp or press that makes all the letters at the same time. The numbers are slightly out of alignment which would indicate they were individually stamped. I've seen that misalignment on other individually numbered pieces associated with vintage cars.

The difference in the Gump markings supports my assumption that the pitcher was made on the east coast by Rice & Sons and made it to the west cast where it was later marked by Gump. I can't see them putting their mark on the pitcher for just selling it with no further work, and that would support their being the company that did the engraving. Of course that's all just a wild guess lacking any further firm information, but it raises a question if the timeline for the boat or crew ever crossed through San Francisco.

Randy McConnell (Randall J. McConnell III)

Posted By: PRJM3 | Posted on: Sep 12, 2017 - 8:43am
Total Posts: 94 | Joined: May 25, 2009 - 2:47pm