The PT Boat Forum
http://www.ptboatforum.com/cgi-bin/MB2/netboard.cgi
» Forum Category: PT Boats of WWII
http://www.ptboatforum.com/cgi-bin/MB2/netboard.cgi?cid=101&fct=showf
» Forum Name: PT Boats - General
http://www.ptboatforum.com/cgi-bin/MB2/netboard.cgi?fct=gotoforum&cid=101&fid=102
» Topic:
Ron 3 Ammunition Load
http://www.ptboatforum.com/cgi-bin/MB2/netboardr.cgi?cid=101&fid=102&tid=4232
The Load-out List for Ron 3-2 as it shipped to the Solomons shows 50,000 rounds of .22 cal. ammunition. Anyone have a theory about this?
Will
Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Mar 8, 2017 - 10:56pm
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm
Hi Will,
I know that on the LCI713 Ammo Magazine, they were supplied with 1000 rounds of 22 ammo as well on every LCI ship. I believe they had a couple of .22 cal rifles on board for target practice? Not sure what else it could be used for. Here is a photo of the crew of Bill Skade's PT143 shooting target practice with small arms and I think I can spot a 22 cal rifle in the background.
Jerry
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Jerry%20G%202017/Bill%20Skade%20RON8%20PT143%20target%20practice%20small%20arms.jpg[/image]
Jerry Gilmartin
PT658 Crewman
Portland OR
Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Mar 9, 2017 - 3:20am
Total Posts: 1472 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm
Hi Jerry -
Yeah it could be, although it could also be another .30 carbine.
Will
Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Mar 9, 2017 - 9:18am
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm
Hi Jerry -
Yeah it could be, although it could also be another .30 carbine.
Will
Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Mar 9, 2017 - 9:19am
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm
Will and Jerry;
They would also use the .22 for varmints! Them hills and mangroves are full of varmints!! [:-laughing-:]
I know Ken Prescott used one for his hobby while at Searlesville. He would hunt birds, shoot them, then take them back to the kitchen in the Lever Brothers plantation house(AKA: BOQ). Then taxidermy them and mail them back to the University of Michigan Anthropology Department.
Take care,
TED
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Mar 9, 2017 - 9:40am
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
You can bag a lot of birds with 50k of ammo - lol
Will
Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Mar 9, 2017 - 11:51am
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm
As a shooter fan and vintage firearms collector, I'm fascinating about this thread.
M1 Cal 30 carbines weren't made for cal.22 along WWII as far as I know. Long after war they were done (not a successful look, anyway) by Erma.
I read time ago about some cal .22 browning machine guns done for training, but It's difficult these went to front line.
All the carbines showed in the pic are M1 30 Carbines.
Anyway, cal .22 were used after WWII in form of "survival collapsable carbines" emergency equipment, cause that's an small caliber good for small arms destined for hunting rabbits, snakes, fishing, and they are low noise too.
My vote is for an emergency gun included into survival equipment. Would be great to have more info about the matter.
Best regards
Luis
Posted By: HOLDEN8702 | Posted on: Mar 9, 2017 - 2:58pm
Total Posts: 47 | Joined: Apr 13, 2016 - 1:36am
Luis;
Springfield did. US Springfield Armory 1922 M2 WWII .22 LR Training Bolt Action Rifle, My Dad had this and M1903 Springfield .30-06 rifle.
Take care,
TED
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Mar 9, 2017 - 5:23pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
I think the Walther PP side arm used .22 bullets
Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Mar 10, 2017 - 3:13am
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am
Frank,
Regular Walther PPs were chambered in .32 caliber (7.65 mm), don't know about any pre-war or wartime guns in .22.
Posted By: Drew Cook | Posted on: Mar 10, 2017 - 5:54am
Total Posts: 1306 | Joined: Oct 19, 2006 - 10:44am
I was going to make a Walthers PP caliber joke but decided not to mention it.
Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Mar 11, 2017 - 3:05am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am
Incorrigible...
Will
Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Mar 11, 2017 - 6:11pm
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm
The Walther PP & PPK's were made in various calibers. One PP model was made during WWII in .22 cal long rifle (.22LR) chamber size. While others were in or 6.35mm auto (.25 ACP) or 7.65x17mm Auto or 9x17mm (.380 ACP)
Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Mar 12, 2017 - 6:38am
Total Posts: 1417 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm
Thanks Dick I thought I had heard they used the .22 ammo, see I'm not losing my mind Will.
Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Mar 12, 2017 - 10:14am
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am
I stand corrected (or more accurately, educated)!
Posted By: Drew Cook | Posted on: Mar 12, 2017 - 1:44pm
Total Posts: 1306 | Joined: Oct 19, 2006 - 10:44am
Gents;
While I could have told you that Walther PP 9, PP 10, PPK/E, PPK/S, and PPK/L had .22 variants, these were post war models. Walther didn't issue military .22 cal models. Theywere issued to Non military organizations like the NSDAP. The Heer(Army) and Kreigsmarine used the S.E. L. f. P08 for .22lr training purposes.
Oh BTW, Walther also currently makes a .22 cal UZI(copy) semi auto:
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Ted%20Walther/uzi22_8324.jpg[/image]
But, Why are we talking about German Weapons?
As for US weapons the Spingfield rifles found there way into PT weapons load outs, and I also remember reading of a .22 cal weapon issued in an Air Crew Survival kit, but I don't know the type or year of issue.
Take care,
TED
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Mar 13, 2017 - 6:17am
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
A story mentioning .22's written by Master Chief Jack Duncan, retired, who served as torpedoman on PT 103 from 1943 to 1944. Jack also served on PT 62 and PT 318:
[blue]This is a tale from an island far, far away at a time long, long ago.[/blue]
[blue]Specifically, Stirling Island in what is now the nation of the Solomon Islands. Food was very, very scarce and monotonous as our little, blue plywood warships, actually just overgrown speedboats, tied up to the trees in one of several inlet arms. We could rest there, rearm and refuel before going out to beard the Imperial Japanese Navy and Army in their own lairs. The trees provided cover from the constant air raids with Jap planes hoping to smash our puny onslaught against them.[/blue]
[blue]We were all in danger of contracting scurvy with the shortage of nourishing, fresh food, so the cooks on our boat, a guy named Larson, a Ship’s Cook First Class, decided to build us a stew. France, Ship’s Cook Third Class, who was his helper, were really not doing much as belly-robbers or stew burners otherwise. They were included in the crew mostly to man the guns. The PT Base, was it 9 (?), was supposed to feed us after we had trekked through the jungle and after we had dipped our mess kits in a boiling, 55-gallon drum of disinfectant.[/blue]
[blue]Now, the PT-103 for some odd Bureau of Ships reason had in its equipage a couple of .22 rifles down in the armory just behind the wardroom. And flocks of white parrots or perhaps cockatoos lived in the trees we were hiding under. Parrot stew it would be, so a couple of us began harvesting the birds. They would land and they would die.[/blue]
[blue]Finally, we had collected enough so that with some withered vegetables begged from a nearby seaplane tender, we kids could feast right there on the boat. We had to be very careful to avoid the tiny bones. The beautiful birds filled our empty bellies and we enjoyed a respite from corned willy, meat and vegetable stew ration and whatever that was in cans labeled as Vienna sausage.[/blue]
[blue]Later, our diet became largely coconut as those three entrees became unbearable. Ripe coconut like you can buy in a supermarket. blue coconut with a Jello-like substance and overripe coconuts containing a palm tree bud that became our salad.[/blue]
[blue]Little did we know that shark was delicious and even octopus tastes great. The word was out that most of the tropical ocean’s denizens were poisonous![/blue]
[blue]For some still-unfathomable reason the Navy always provided canned grapefruit juice for us to be forced to drink, also to prevent scurvy. A canteen cup of that was used to wash down the daily Atabrine tablet that was supposed to prevent malaria. If the Supply wienies managed to get that vile stuff to us, we called it battery acid, why didn’t we get better or at least a larger variety of food?[/blue]
[blue]The point? To this day, no grapefruit and no coconut. Now, I haven’t tried parrot stew of late . . . . . . .[/blue]
Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Mar 13, 2017 - 8:53am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am
The Walther PP chamber in .22LR was produced in 1938. My dear old friend (84 now) was a gunsmith for over 60 years and had a collection of 9 Walther semi-auto pistols. As he told me as of this morning one of his .22 Walther's was indeed manufactured in1938 - that would make it PRE-War! They continue post war adding more model lines in that caliber.
Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Mar 13, 2017 - 10:27am
Total Posts: 1417 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm
Dick;
"Walther didn't issue military .22 cal models. They were issued to Non military organizations like the NSDAP. The Heer(Army) and Kreigsmarine used the S.E. L. f. P08 for .22lr training purposes. "
But how does this relate to PT Boats? And RON 3 ammo alotment?[:-confused2-:]
Take care,
TED
P.S. you can put the red flag next to my name again, oh great one[:-veryhappy-:]
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Mar 13, 2017 - 10:45am
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
From a cabin arrangement drawing for PT 103-196 and 314-367. The rifle rack is listed as for PT 103-186:
[image]http://www.pt103.com/images/asst/DwgElco80_Interior_Rifle_Rack.jpg[/image]
Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Mar 13, 2017 - 10:45am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am
So, I guess I don't stand corrected/educated...
No U.S. military-issued Walther PPs in .22 caliber, which is what I thought.
Posted By: Drew Cook | Posted on: Mar 13, 2017 - 11:15am
Total Posts: 1306 | Joined: Oct 19, 2006 - 10:44am
Duplicate post.
Posted By: Drew Cook | Posted on: Mar 13, 2017 - 11:16am
Total Posts: 1306 | Joined: Oct 19, 2006 - 10:44am
I never once said, made reference to, or otherwise commented on the 1938 .22LR Walther PP ever bing issued to the military - let alone the U.S. Navy ! ! ! ! ! !
I was merely confirming the fact that .22LR PP's were in existence. to clear up the fact that they weren't and secondly to correct your comment they were no pre-War or War .22LR PPs.
Additionally: We talk about a lot of items other then PT's, even a guy named Ted goes on about special warfare boats and the likes. Just saying . . . .
The home page of this web site defines the forum discussion as:
[blue][b]WELCOME TO THE PT BOAT FORUM[/b]
This PT Boat Message Board has found its new home after being around in one form or another for over 15 years. This new location will continue aiding and educating visitors and members about PT boats and [b]other related aspects of the Motor Torpedo Boat service and World War II.[/b] This forum also enjoys the discussion of [b]small combatant boats from other countries as they also pertained to World War II.[/b][/blue]
I'm sure that if the 3-2 load out list included 50,000 rounds of .22 - somebody if not many in that squadron had some type of .22 cal guns or maybe they simply wanted to confuse the enemy if captured!
Ted - you now have THREE RED flags, hummmmmmmmm
and I'm thinking of issuing a SINGLE RED flag to Will for the original post, double hummmmmmmmms - NO- I take that back, he was simply asking a simple question about a PT fact. Thanks Will.
Take care all,
Dick . . . . [:-cheers-:]
Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Mar 13, 2017 - 1:40pm
Total Posts: 1417 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm
I will ask Jack Duncan. Go to the source! Master Chief Gunners mate and Former TorpedoMan on PT103.
Jerry Gilmartin
PT658 Crewman
Portland OR
Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Mar 13, 2017 - 2:31pm
Total Posts: 1472 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm
Cool, Jerry! Whew, Dick.....
Will
Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Mar 13, 2017 - 3:09pm
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm
Whew is right Will, I thought I had six red flags, three isn't so bad![:-laughing-:]
TED
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Mar 13, 2017 - 4:44pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
I wonder if talking about Red Flags is a non-PT subject that will get us a Red Flag.
Will
Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Mar 13, 2017 - 7:05pm
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm
I think I remember reading somewhere that the Navy had .22 rifles for target practice. I'm still looking for that reference.
Charlie
Posted By: 29navy | Posted on: Mar 14, 2017 - 6:37am
Total Posts: 600 | Joined: Dec 28, 2006 - 3:02pm
Thanks, Charlie....
Will
Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Mar 14, 2017 - 10:42am
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm
I asked both Jack and CJ the same question about 22 rifles on PT Boats. Here is what they said. Jerry
Hi Jack and CJ
A few of us were discussing why did RON3-2 have an ammo allowance of 22 cal. Somebody posted your story about shooting a bunch of white parrots for food on the PT103 using two 22 cal rifles on board.. Do you remember what was the manufacturer and model of these 22 rifles? Was this a common item aboard PT boats? CJ do you have any memories of using 22 cal rifles on the PT boat?
Thanks Jerry
PS I plan to share your reply with the members of the PT Boat Forum online.
From Jack Duncan:
Oh, gosh, ¾ of a century later you asked me the brand name of the two .22 rifles we carried aboard the PT103. C’mon, Jerry, as an 18 year-old, I wasn’t the gun nut or aficionado that I became in the late 1940s when I attended a night school gunsmithing course. A .22 rifle was a .22 rifle; just meant to go hunting small game.
Beats me. They were bolt action, but where in the world did the ammo come from???? As the Torpedoman, I didn’t have to inventory guns and ammo.
At the time, I probably just assumed that all the boats came with them as standard issue in case of je ne sais quoi. The vagaries of BuShips allowances weren’t the puzzle they became much, much later in my life.
I never did inquire if any other boats carried them or even if they were left behind by some sailor. The 103 deployed first to the Galapagos Islands. I joined the crew at Tulagi. Perhaps they were issued or acquired to repel iguanas – kidding.
Jack
This is the response from CJ Willis:who was crewman aboard a 78ft Higgins, PT242
Jerry we did not have any 22 caliber rifles or hand guns on 242 while I was aboard. In our locker down below we had 4-5 carbine rifles. 4-5 Springfield Bolt action 3006 rifles, 4 - 45 cal Tommy guns, 4-5 45 cal pistols, dozen or so hand grenades. We may have had some other small arms in the locker but I can't recall any but I am sure we did not have any 22 cal guns because I grew up on the farm hunting rabbits, squirrels, possums, skunks etc with a single shot bolt action 22 rifle. I was very familiar with 22 rifles before I went into the Navy.
CJ
Jerry Gilmartin
PT658 Crewman
Portland OR
Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Mar 14, 2017 - 11:00am
Total Posts: 1472 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm
Thanks, guys. Maybe the BoL meant 500 rounds....
Will
Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Mar 14, 2017 - 3:35pm
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm
I was at the Navy Library today and before I left, I took a quick trip through the Navy Museum. Ran across this regarding the use of .22s.
[Image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/CharlieJones/usn%2022%201.jpg[/image]
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/CharlieJones/usn%2022.jpg[/image]
Charlie
Posted By: 29navy | Posted on: Mar 24, 2017 - 10:03am
Total Posts: 600 | Joined: Dec 28, 2006 - 3:02pm
Sweet, Charlie...
Will
Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Mar 24, 2017 - 4:31pm
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm
Thanks Charlie, that's one of the Rifles my Dad had hanging on the gun rack.As per my post, Target practice with .22.
Take care,
TED
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Mar 24, 2017 - 8:29pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
You can get a lot of practice with 50,000 rounds...
Will
Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Mar 24, 2017 - 10:21pm
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm
And shoot yourself the fixins for some tasty parrot stew!
Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Mar 25, 2017 - 11:52am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am
Slight up date or rather additional info. When I was on the battleship USS North Carolina last weekend (in Wilmington, NC), the signage for their small arms locker listed 8 .22 caliber target rifles and 5 .22 caliber pistols, Colt target.
Charlie
Posted By: 29navy | Posted on: May 23, 2017 - 8:16am
Total Posts: 600 | Joined: Dec 28, 2006 - 3:02pm