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ť Forum Category: PT Boats of WWII
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ť Forum Name: PT Boats - General
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ť Topic: Esso Tankers & PTs
http://www.ptboatforum.com/cgi-bin/MB2/netboardr.cgi?cid=101&fid=102&tid=4142

My dad worked for Esso, so my sibs and I were pleased to come across the book "Ships of the Esso Fleet in WWII".
A scan of it was on Google, but only in "snippet view"... you could see a few lines of text here and there, not the whole book. I contacted Google with a request to open it up, as it was surely in the public domain now... and they did!

You can look at the book here:
[url]https://books.google.com/books?id=e3JMAAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false[/url]

Use "Search in this book" on the left side of the page... put in "PT" or "MTB", and find numerous mentions of PTs being carried as deck cargo.

Patrick Matthews
Matthews Model Marine
http://matthewsmodelmarine.wordpress.com/

Posted By: Patrick Matthews | Posted on: Aug 24, 2016 - 4:40pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

For example, a brief description on p.200 of unloading 6 PTs... "crane alongside", took a day to discharge cargo and get all 6 PTs afloat.

Sounds like typical practice would be to have a crane barge come out, pick each boat off the deck, and drop it right into the water.

Just imagine how a new crew and officers must have felt- excited for sure- when they were first plopped into their new waters!

Patrick Matthews
Matthews Model Marine
http://matthewsmodelmarine.wordpress.com/

Posted By: Patrick Matthews | Posted on: Aug 24, 2016 - 4:55pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

p. 68:

"On the run from New York to Aruba we carried PT boats on our spar deck. Upon arrival at Aruba we took on a bulk cargo and proceeded to Cristobal where we delivered both. We usually carried four PT boats their officers crews and maintenance force totaling about 120 men. When these boats were taken on at New York they were fully loaded manned supplied and ready for action The only remaining detail was to put fuses in the torpedoes. All in all we carried sixty nine PT boats south to the Canal and three north to New York.

Well Armed Tanker
Most of the Navy men slept in their boats The twelve senior officers were quartered in the hospital and extra rooms and we quartered some of the men between decks. As a general rule eighteen extra motors were part of the cargo. Each PT boat had three motors and was equipped with four torpedoes and four anti aircraft guns. The guns could also be used against submarines."

Patrick Matthews
Matthews Model Marine
http://matthewsmodelmarine.wordpress.com/

Posted By: Patrick Matthews | Posted on: Aug 24, 2016 - 5:02pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

Pat;
THANKS!! A few years ago Frank asked about ships that carried PT's transported by ship as deck cargo to Panama then to the war zone. Well, I have been working on that list ever since, I currently have info on 31 squadrons, some is partial, some are complete. I breezed through it and I saw several names that are familiar, especially the F.Q. Barstow, which owns the record of carrying PT Boats, This ship carried 69 PT boats from NY to Panama, and 3 PT's back North.
On Page 325, the Esso Baltimore is carrying 4 boats of RON 29 to Oran.
4 Other RON 29 boats were transported on the SS Pan Maryland, the other ship, I have not discovered yet.
Take care,
TED

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Aug 24, 2016 - 8:40pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

The picture of Esso Baltimore headed for Oran:

[image]http://www.matthewsmodelmarine.files.wordpress.com/2016/08/ssessobaltimore_pts.jpg[/image]

Patrick Matthews
Matthews Model Marine
http://matthewsmodelmarine.wordpress.com/

Posted By: Patrick Matthews | Posted on: Aug 25, 2016 - 9:48am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

I asked at Steel Navy where the picture might be located. Rick Davis replied:

"Likely the original photo is in the 80-G collection of Misc Official USN photos at NARA in College Park, MD.

It may be possible to find the ship by looking up the ship's name in the card catalog there. But, if the ship was unknown to the photographer (merchant ships would "normally" display a sign that could be flipped out with the ship's name for ID purposes while in the USA waters or radio comm would get the ship's name), it would take a lot of digging otherwise. Having a date helps. It appears that this is a Recon Blimp (ZP) photo or a Patrol aircraft photo, some of those blimp guys took a lot of photos and capture some interesting views. Hence there are 100s if not 1,000s of these photos taken during WWII in 80-G. Also, most convoys with tankers originated from Hampton Roads, VA especially from 1943 onwards heading to North Africa/Med or some units would vector off to UK after the midway point. "

Could be there are more like this...

Patrick Matthews
Matthews Model Marine
http://matthewsmodelmarine.wordpress.com/

Posted By: Patrick Matthews | Posted on: Aug 25, 2016 - 10:50am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

PAT;
In the photo that you posted I can clearly see Thunderbolts on the stern of the two aft boats(so they are PT 557,558,or 559 and maybe 556 or 560, we need more photos, if this one exists, there is probably 5-12 more).
Your are correct, RON 15, 29, and 22 left from Norfolk to the Med.
But so did RON 5, 6, 7, 10, and 11. They ran down to Norfolk from Brooklyn, and some stayed in the Norfolk area up to 2-3 weeks waiting on ships, to take them to Panama.
The photos of PT 109, 107, 108. and 110 on Joseph Stanton, and photos of PT 111, and 112 on USS Tallulah (AO-50), (probably 113 and 114 are also onboard aft, but I can't find a full photo of the ship) and photos of PT 103 and 105 on a tanker, where all taken at Portsmouth Naval Ship Yard.
Using www.fold3.com I have been able to search the war diaries of 3rd Naval District, Brooklyn Navy Yard, 5th Naval District, Norfolk Naval Base, Naval Weapons Depot Norfolk-St, Julien's Creek, 15th Naval District, Naval Activity Canal Zone-Balboa, I have also looked at many USN tankers,etc. All have entries on individual PT boats.
Thanks again,
TED
P.S. too bad Standard Oil and Pan American Oil didn't have a similar book written, if they did, I could get a lot closer to finishing this list.

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Aug 25, 2016 - 1:21pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

Maybe they did!
And actually, Esso ("S.O.") IS Standard Oil (of NJ).

But I did some previous work researching Texaco tankers... they had a big fleet, and must have also been employed by Uncle Sam. Their tanker Ohio was lent tot he Brits, who famously used her in Operation Pedestal, a Malta run. I didn't find a book like this, but the Texaco Marine Div. was quite proud of their history... might be something out there, for them and other firms.

But regardless, any other good photos will have been taken like this one, by USN fliers... and these should all be in NARA. Might be worthwhile to comb through what might be hundreds or thousands of these convoy images.

Patrick Matthews
Matthews Model Marine
http://matthewsmodelmarine.wordpress.com/

Posted By: Patrick Matthews | Posted on: Aug 25, 2016 - 1:39pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

This is why I love this board.....

Steve

Posted By: Nuge210 | Posted on: Aug 25, 2016 - 4:16pm
Total Posts: 323 | Joined: Jun 4, 2008 - 7:50am

Rick Davis just posted this better version, a scan of the original photo from NARA, over at Steel Navy:

[image]http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p303/TincanREDavis/zMercSSEssoBaltimorex10-1Apr44.lr_zps4fu7xosp.jpg[/image]

[image]http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p303/TincanREDavis/zMercSSEssoBaltimorex11-1Apr44.lr_zpsqeo7sjgm.jpg[/image]

Patrick Matthews
Matthews Model Marine
http://matthewsmodelmarine.wordpress.com/

Posted By: Patrick Matthews | Posted on: Aug 25, 2016 - 5:50pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

Also of interest is the camo: light gray sides and darker gray decks. I always thought this was limited to earlier boats in the PT-1xx range. Guess I haven't been paying enough attention!

Patrick Matthews
Matthews Model Marine
http://matthewsmodelmarine.wordpress.com/

Posted By: Patrick Matthews | Posted on: Aug 25, 2016 - 6:13pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

Pat;
Here is ESSO Manhattan
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Ted%20Walther/ESSO%20MANHATTAN%20ENROUTE%20TO%20BRISBANE%201943.png[/image]

[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Ted%20Walther/PT%20Tanker_Esso_Manhattan_underway_with_PT_boats_in_1943.jpg[/image]
En route to Brisbane July-Sept 1943 with 7 PT boats on deck. I cannot confirm yet but I think these are RON 21 boats, the time frame fits.
On October 21, 1944, ESSO Manhattan carried RON 37 Boats out(PT 533, 534, 535, 536, 537, 538, 539, 540) from Panama to Espirito Santo, off loaded the boats, then continued on to Finschhafen, New Guinea.
Take care,
TED
P.S. ESSO Richmond carried RON 27 boats from Panama to Tulagi. ESSO Norfolk carried RON 33 boats from Panama to Morobe. I still have yet to figure out who ESSO Pittsburgh carried out , but I think it might be RON 25 or RON 28 boats.

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Aug 25, 2016 - 9:16pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

How many ship-trips?

Over 700 PTs built, average of maybe 4 or 5 boats per load... 125 to 140 ship-loads. And maybe up 50% more to account for all the tankers that off-loaded in the Canal Zone, with someone else picking up the boats on the Pacific side.

You have your work cut out for you, Ted!

Patrick Matthews
Matthews Model Marine
http://matthewsmodelmarine.wordpress.com/

Posted By: Patrick Matthews | Posted on: Aug 26, 2016 - 5:07am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

And how many engines?

Anyone have records on Packard's production numbers? I think I saw a number once, in the 4000+ range.

But if there were 700 PTs, and each shipped out with 3 spare engines, then that's 4200 engines right there. Where did they all go? Bottom of the bay? Filipino fishing boats?

Patrick Matthews
Matthews Model Marine
http://matthewsmodelmarine.wordpress.com/

Posted By: Patrick Matthews | Posted on: Aug 26, 2016 - 5:26am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

Pat;
Ah ha! now you have hit on the other little thing Chip and I have been investigating. We have come across some very interesting evidence, But that's all for now.

As for the tanker/ship info I have, as I said, some is complete, and some isn't. Some squadrons I have their entire trip (New York to Panama, and Panama to Tulagi, New Guinea or the Philippines. Others I just have the first leg or the last leg.)
As for Trips well F.Q. Barstow made 69 by herself. Mainly first leg.

To break it down further the average squadron had 12 boats, and they mainly loaded by 4-6 boats (ESSO Manhattan is the only ship I know of that carried 8 boats, 4-6 boats were the usual load). roughly 399 boats total were assigned to the Pacific, 39 to the MED and 39 boats to England for D-Day, so that is 477 boats. Using the 4-6 boat average that's 79.5- 119.5 trips to the warzones. Using your book the average war load-out per ship was 350-400 tons of MTB Squadron equipment and 100-125 Officers and men.

Using F.Q. Barstow as a basis for fist leg for early ELCO Squadrons, 70-80 trips for first leg to Panama. Higgins and Huckins Squadrons ran on their own to Panama, Early ELCO Squadrons were shipped to Panama, the later ELCO Squadrons, from RON 33 on ran from Miami to Panama.
Take care,
TED

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Aug 26, 2016 - 8:16am
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

See post at Steel Navy, 4 Higgins on Elco A-frame cradles, aboard AO77:
[url]http://members.boardhost.com/Warship/msg/1479447821.html[/url]

...from Rick Davis.

[image]http://i.imgur.com/dGSRZ4l.jpg[/image]

[image]http://i.imgur.com/ZU0w3Ff.jpg[/image]

Patrick Matthews
Matthews Model Marine
http://matthewsmodelmarine.wordpress.com/

Posted By: Patrick Matthews | Posted on: Nov 18, 2016 - 9:24am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

Pat;
Nice photos, RON 22. The two aft boats in the first photo have names painted on the bow. The Port side boat has a long name so maybe "The Fascinating Bitch" or Bacchante.
Take care,
TED

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Nov 18, 2016 - 12:13pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

Double post.😈😈

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Nov 18, 2016 - 12:13pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

triple post😈😈😈

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Nov 18, 2016 - 12:13pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

Hello Ted:

Interesting topic. I am adding a paragraph from my book Deadly PT Boat Patrols.

"At Panama, ten of the twelve boats of the recently reconstituted Ron TWO were divided into three groups; the first was made up of PTs 36, 40, 44, and 47; the second consisted of PTs 43, 59, 109 and 110; the third was of PTs 111 and 112. PTs 113 and 114 were playing catch-up aboard Suamico. The first group was hoisted aboard Robin Wentley on October 8 and 9; the second group was secured on October 10 aboard Roger Williams. Over the following three days Kenmore took aboard PTs 111 and 112 and PTs 119, 120, 121 and 122 of Ron SIX were raised into position aboard Fairisle. Lt. Westholm was aboard Roger Williams, berthed on PT 109."

I realize that there are a couple of conflicts with your earlier posting but I spent a lot of time on this and I think I got it right. Not certain of my sources now (a combination of deck logs, etc.) and all my research material is packed away.

This is what makes this all so darned interesting, though.

Allan

Posted By: Allan | Posted on: Nov 29, 2016 - 7:50pm
Total Posts: 161 | Joined: Sep 18, 2007 - 7:07pm

Here is the watch quarter and station bill for PT109 while loaded aboard the SS Stanton. It shows Kempner and Larsen as the CO and XO of the ship. Jerry
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Jerry%20G%20PT658/IMG_4620.jpg[/image]

[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Jerry%20G%20PT658/IMG_4621.jpg[/image]

Regulations for PT Crews while aboard Stanton
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Jerry%20G%20PT658/IMG_4622.jpg[/image]

[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Jerry%20G%20PT658/IMG_4623.jpg[/image]

Jerry Gilmartin
PT658 Crewman
Portland OR

Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Dec 1, 2016 - 1:53am
Total Posts: 1472 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm

Allan;
My previous post? My post on this thread only referred to transit from Norfolk to Panama.
Take care,
TED

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Dec 1, 2016 - 10:48am
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

Hello Ted:

Thanks. That explains the difference nicely. My post referred to movement out of Panama and into the war zone. Sorry for my not understanding your reference.

Allan

Posted By: Allan | Posted on: Dec 1, 2016 - 7:51pm
Total Posts: 161 | Joined: Sep 18, 2007 - 7:07pm