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» Forum Category: PT Boats of WWII
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» Forum Name: PT Boats - General
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» Topic:
PT 5 & PT 6
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Hello !
I wonder if this finding has any relevancy in the PT 5 & PT 6 matter.
The bids for expeimental 81 ft motor torpedo boats were opened on May 5, 1939 and the contract C 67021 with Higgins Industries made (obviously) on June 10, 1939. In that contract PT 5 and PT 6 were specified as "3 engine" boats. However, a correction was made and "3" heavily and deliberately typed over with "2" making PT 5 seem like two engined boat.
According to the terms of the contract the government was to supply the main engines, contractor the hulls, their fittings, auxiliary equipment and to install main engines. The cost of both hulls was 51 450 dollars. The engine installation (including exhaust/cooling/wiring systems etc) was 7 150 dollars for PT 5 and 9 650 dollars for PT 6, totalling 58 650 and 61 100 dollars.
The cost of installation is so much lower (2 500 dollars) for PT 5 that it is hardly attributable to different engine type. Moreover, PT 6 was to be delivered within 230 days whereas PT within just 175 days.If there was no typing error and costs and schedules were correct, is it possible that the centre engine was to be installed at a later date or the installation left uncompleted for trials of some other type of engine ?
Greetings
Olli-Pekka Haukiala
Helsinki, Finland
Posted By: Olli | Posted on: Jun 2, 2016 - 11:55pm
Total Posts: 2 | Joined: Jun 2, 2016 - 11:00pm
Hello Olli,
Welcome to the PT Boat Forum. I would suggest you obtain Jerry Strahans book about AJ Higgins biography. He has a lot of behind the scenes details about what they were planning in those early days. Also, I have posted some info about PT5 trip from New Orleans to Key West that you can see on the NAVSOURCE website. I also have seen blueprints and photos of what is labeled as the PT5 engine room interior and layout and it seems to have 3 engines. I will try to post it here.
It seems that I recall vaguely there was some issue with PT6 being delayed due to the inability of the Vimalert Engine Company of Jersey City NJ being able to supply these engines in a timely manner, and Higgins ended up installing at first Hall Scotts and later Packards in order to get through the delivery date requirements. I am a little fuzzy on the details. Maybe Al Ross or Randy Smith at the PT305 in New Orleans can amplify the information or correct me.
Hope this helps.
Jerry
Blueprint
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/PT658%202014/Higgins%2076%20ft%20engineroom.jpg[/image]
Engine room interior either PT5 or PT6 Looking forward [image] http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/PT658%202014/Hall%20Scott%20Defenders%20in%20PT5.jpg[/image]
Engine room interior from other end looking aft (Those are Hall Scott engines from reading the label on the end of the engine by the ladder rungs)
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/PT658%202014/HallScottDefenderMRB2.jpg[/image]
PT5 trip to FLA track chart
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/PT658%202014/PT5Trackchart.jpg[/image]
Detail close up of PT5 track chart of trip to FLA note inset photo of PT5
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/PT658%202014/PT5_track_detail.jpg[/image]
Vimalert engine side view
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/PT658%202014/Vimalert1.jpg[/image]
Vimalert engine other side
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/PT658%202014/Vimalert3.jpg[/image]
Vimalert engine end view
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/PT658%202014/Vimalert4.jpg[/image]
Jerry Gilmartin
PT658 Crewman
Portland OR
Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Jun 3, 2016 - 2:14am
Total Posts: 1473 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm
Really interesting images Jerry, thank you for posting them.
Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Jun 3, 2016 - 5:28am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am
Wecome Olli!
The Board of Inspection and Survey report from 1945, after PT-5 was returned from her Canadian Crash Boat Service, reports the boat having two Packard 4M-2500, 1350 HP engines. These are listed as replacements for the original 3 Vimalert engines.
It also states the boat was in need of repairs due to this modification from all the rerouting and alterations of the original wiring and cables. Batteries ended up in improvised locations.
As an aside, the hull was reported to be strongly built, and the waterline reinforced with timber to combat ice conditions in the operating area.
Cheers,
Andy
Posted By: Andy Small | Posted on: Jun 3, 2016 - 3:38pm
Total Posts: 262 | Joined: Nov 20, 2013 - 9:04pm
Thanks Jerry and Andy for comments and Jerry for magnificient photos. The Vimalert photos are probably from the factory set once handed over by the company but long since gone missing here. The two engineroom photographs are from Higgins 69 ft mtb type known as MRB 2-6. These are particulary informative. A good Vimalert PT 2 installation photo appears in Motorboating (January 1945, page 137).
Strahan's Andrew J. Higgins biography with lots of details especially on the Navy Departement administration and Higgins' sometimes difficult relations with it has been very valuable source in linking the Finnish involvement with the picture.
Both Vimalert and Packard were troubled in the beginning. Actually, a break down in test bench in February 1940 was the main cause for Finland not to buy PT 5. Packard 3M-2500 still gave problems in Britain.
As Andy noted, PT 5 and PT 6 were sturdy boats. They were well built and represened the high standard of workmanship and materials of Higgins Industries. Of the experimental PT boats PT 1-6 then available these two were regarded the best.
Olli
Posted By: Olli | Posted on: Jun 5, 2016 - 4:05am
Total Posts: 2 | Joined: Jun 2, 2016 - 11:00pm
Hello Olli,
I forgot to mention that you may be able to locate more blueprints online if you go to the Louisiana Digital Library website [url]http://louisdl.louislibraries.org/[/url] and perform a search under the "Collection Name" menu, and type in "Higgins Industries" once you are in the Higgins Industries folder, you can open each scanned blueprint and several apply to the early PT5 and PT6 and MRB boats. It is a little tedious to search through them all. but you can find a lot of obscure drawings if you are persistent. I hope this helps.
Jerry
Jerry Gilmartin
PT658 Crewman
Portland OR
Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Jun 5, 2016 - 7:09pm
Total Posts: 1473 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm
I would like to follow up Jerry's post and highlight that drawing W-223 2410, in the collection, shows the recommend Higgins changes to the original specs for PT 5 and 6.
Drawing W-223 2410
The drawing (in my opinion) really captures the differences in hull construction techniques between the two main camps in PT Boat design within the US. The first from folks such as Prof George Crouch and the race boat world, and the other led by Higgins and later ELCO which is more of a mass production method. Both with their advantages and disadvantages that would become apparent over time.
I'm sure you are already aware, but I would like to add that PT 1 thru 4 were designed and built as a different type of boat from PT 5 and 6 (and PT 7 and 8) since they were to be small, lightweight boats that could be easily transportable. Having studied PT 3 in detail, you can see a direct lineage all the way back to the two WW1 motor torpedo boat proposals for a scout type vessel that led to the Greenport C270 and the Hickman C378. It was intended that these WW1 vessels would be lifted (fully loaded and manned) from vessels into the ocean to then engage or scout the enemy.
Also, just as important as PT Boat hull construction (and design) in my opinion, were the torpedo (and launching) design (and availability), engine development, and propeller (and rudder) design (what seems to be a continuous problem). Together with the ability to dance with the elephants (mainly ELCO), this helps put in context PT Boat development (again in my opinion).
Posted By: Andy Small | Posted on: Jun 7, 2016 - 5:03am
Total Posts: 262 | Joined: Nov 20, 2013 - 9:04pm
Insightful post, Andy...
Will
Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Jun 7, 2016 - 10:10pm
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm
Insightful post, Andy...
Will
Which is why I appreciate and enjoy this forum so much. Thanks for maintaining the integrity of the site, Dick... Oorah.
Al Ross
Posted By: alross2 | Posted on: Jun 8, 2016 - 4:12am
Total Posts: 993 | Joined: Oct 30, 2006 - 8:19pm
HELLO JERRY was you inron 39 as i noticed the logo for ron 39 I was on the 107 boat and had just the2 eeks before it was accidentally sunkLoe man Sullivan ut the crew called kid and am now 93 years old. ole man sullivan
Posted By: John Sullivan | Posted on: Jun 8, 2016 - 5:00pm
Total Posts: 46 | Joined: Oct 11, 2006 - 6:57pm
Hello OLE MAN SULLIVAN!
No I was good friends with the first RON39 CO LCDR Russ Hamachek. He was skipper of PT150 and then went to Squadron Commander training in Miami before going up to New York to Commission the new Squadron. He went out to the Pacific where he was replaced after several months at the end of his tour. Later in life, he became one of the guys restoring the PT658 the Higgins boat up in Portland OR. That is where I got to know him. He told me the story of how he found some Russian Artist in New York to design his custom made RON39 Logo. Anyway Russ took his last patrol a few years ago, but sometimes before that I asked him if it was ok with him if I display his RON39 logo in his honor, and he said sure thing. We all really miss having Russ around on the PT658. Thanks for asking!
Jerry
Russ showing PT658 to visitors in 2008
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/RussHamachek1.jpg[/image]
Russ in the Pacific when CO of PT150
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/RussHamachek.jpg[/image]
Jerry Gilmartin
PT658 Crewman
Portland OR
Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Jun 8, 2016 - 9:02pm
Total Posts: 1473 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm