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ť Forum Category: PT Boats of WWII
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ť Forum Name: PT Boats - General
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ť Topic: Blacks in the PT Boat Service
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I know we had this conversation before on the message board, but here goes. Today while I was setting up my PT BOAT EXHIBIT in Springfield a women stopped by the Gallery to tell me her Dad served on a PT Boat. As she was black, I had informed her that it was highly unlikely he was a Crewmember on a boat, but possibly served on a Tender or even the Base Force. As Whites and Blacks were segregated in those days, the Navy did not allow Blacks to move up in rank. Most held positions as Stewards or Cooks on Capital Ships. I know this changed as the War progressed, but I am not sure of the year.

She then produced 2 copies of an article that had appeared in the Springfield Newspapers. His name was Desso Dee Bryant, who had earlier served on the USS CALIFORNIA ( Lost at Pearl Harbor ) and he was the Light Weight Fleet Champion. He was in 5 major Battles while in the Navy and went on to say that he was now serving on a PT BOAT. The article also said how he was being sent back to Melville to await another engagement. It also went on to say how he attended the MTBSTC completing the 4 month course. Can anyone shed light as to Blacks attending the School. Did Blacks serve as crewmwmbers on PT Boats other then Davis's Raiders. Seems to be some confusion here, which has never really been cleared up. Could the article in the paper be true? Do any of you former Crewmembers recall any Blacks on other boats. I have heard of them being attached to Base Force Personel and possibly Tenders. Any help here would be great as I promised to get some information back to this women, who is the daughter of Mr.Byrant. By the way, what is the web site for her to get some information on her dad. Thanks Folks. By the way the Exhibit is about 95% completed. I should have things wrapped up by next weekend. The curator of the Museum stopped in today and was really taken back by the Exhibit. He thought it was just Beautiful. Wish I had that same room in my House. Things could stay up all the time.

Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Jun 24, 2007 - 1:21pm
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am

Frank: I have at least one pic somewhere of a black crewmember aboard one of the boats. I'll send it to you if I can find it......

Will

Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Jun 25, 2007 - 8:07am
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm

Frank, I beleive she can information from the National Archives.
http://www.archives.gov/index.html Also, the VA.
http://www.va.gov/

Ray

Posted By: Ray Wilbur | Posted on: Jun 25, 2007 - 9:10am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

Frank:
In Squadron 19 we had 5 Steward Mates that cooked and served officers mess. They were part of the base force and never were crew mwmbers. I am positive that there were no black boat crew members in the Solomons. I was in both Squadrons 19 and 23 also saw many crews from other Squadrons which we were operating with. The only blacks I saw were on the base. I was in the Philippines at Base 17 but never was a crew member on a boat there. So I can't say about the later Squadrons.

C. J. Willis

Posted By: CJ Willis | Posted on: Jun 25, 2007 - 11:18am
Total Posts: 464 | Joined: Nov 5, 2006 - 5:02pm

thank you guys for your information. I will attempt to find out what squadron he may have been with. I do not believe any blacks went thru melville training, but you never know what took place later in the war. i will keep digging.

Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Jun 26, 2007 - 12:12am
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am

Hello Frank,

I have three pictures of Ron 21's PT 331 that have a black crew member on board.

Contact me at waylin1@att.net and I'll email them to you.

Wayne Traxel

Posted By: Wayne Traxel | Posted on: Jun 26, 2007 - 5:56am
Total Posts: 248 | Joined: Oct 11, 2006 - 5:40am

Hi Wayne,
I understand you have a picture of Ron 21 PT 331 that shows a black crew member on board. Can you please post it on the message board?
Victor

Victor K Chun

Posted By: victorkchun | Posted on: Mar 20, 2009 - 10:00pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

Hello Victor,

I received these photos in 2001 from Gerry Keuhn, Widow of Walter Keuhn MoMM 1c of PT-331. Had these photos for some time before I noticed the Black man among the crew.

When this post came up in 2007 I believe a gentleman writing a book on the subject made inquiries to this message board and I emailed copies of these photos to him and never heard from him again. I also emailed these pictures to Frank Andruss.

Franks take on these pictures I found to be more probable. In many instances the local natives helped crews load supplies on the boats.

[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Bow20mmPT-331.jpg[/image]

[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Bowtwin50PT-331.jpg[/image]

Hope this helps

Wayne Traxel

Posted By: Wayne Traxel | Posted on: Mar 21, 2009 - 2:34pm
Total Posts: 248 | Joined: Oct 11, 2006 - 5:40am

Wayne . . .

Great post, thanks for posting images.

Dick . . .

Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Mar 21, 2009 - 5:05pm
Total Posts: 1417 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm

From that photo - I'd say that he was a native helper or maybe a coastwatcher?

Garth

Posted By: TGConnelly | Posted on: Mar 22, 2009 - 7:34am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

Wayne: Any chance that second shot is of the 321 boat? (Different gun configuration, maybe name CAROLINA CHILE partially visible).

Will

Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Mar 22, 2009 - 9:35am
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm

Hello Will,

PT- 331 was nick named "The Wolf" which was written on the starboard side of the charthouse above the side window. On the front of the Charthouse there was a Wolfs head with what appears to be a half moon above the wolfs head. In the second picture you can just see the moon on the front of charthouse. That twin 50 mount made the rounds in various locations on PT 331. I don't know which is the earliest shot of the two pictures. Eventually a 37mm was fitted on the bow and the twin fifties were relocated between the fore and aft torpedoes on the port side.

[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/PT-331TheWolf.jpg[/image]

[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/PT331TheWolf2.jpg[/image]

[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Twin50DeckmountPT-331.jpg[/image]
M-4, 37mm was fitted on the bow of 331 and the twin fifties were relocated between the fore and aft torpedoes on the port side.

Hope this helps

Wayne Traxel

Posted By: Wayne Traxel | Posted on: Mar 22, 2009 - 10:31am
Total Posts: 248 | Joined: Oct 11, 2006 - 5:40am

Thank you Wayne for the pictures, especially where they came from.
I will try real hard to convience my publisher to put the name Walter
Keuhn in my book
Victor

Victor K Chun

Posted By: victorkchun | Posted on: Mar 22, 2009 - 12:06pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

You know what's interesting about these photos is that the twin .50's have moved between the bow and forward of the starboard depth charge. The gentleman in questions seems to be on both boats. It would be great to learn more about this.
Dave

David Waples

Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Mar 22, 2009 - 7:38pm
Total Posts: 1679 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm

In leafing through my copy of KNIGHTS OF THE SEA last night, I noticed several pictures of what appear to be blacks in the PT crews.....

Will

Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Apr 30, 2009 - 4:31pm
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm

Hello Frank

I have attached this image from the book Knights of the Sea Page 93 of a mess hand or Stewart's mate on board a PT Boat. I have also included this link pertaining to African Americans in the USN during WWII.
www.history.navy.mil/photos/prs-tpic/af-amer/afa-wwii.htm

I was also talking to a former crewmember of the USS Massachusetts about the subject. He informed me that the Battleship had black mess attendants onboard throughout the war but they were segregated until late 1945-post war at that time they integrated both black and white sailors. As you will note on the navy web site some capital ships allowed black Americans to man antiaircraft guns on navy vessels.

Shannon

[image]http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt215/BattleshipCove/MesscookonPTfromKnightsoftheseapage.jpg[/image]

Donald Shannon

Posted By: Donald Shannon | Posted on: May 14, 2009 - 10:00am
Total Posts: 47 | Joined: Apr 24, 2009 - 10:07am

T. J. Lovvorn served in Ron 12 in 1943 and 1944 on PTs 190 and 195. I can not find Joshua's name among a list of enlisted men. Lovvorn could have been with another squadron later.

Posted By: QM | Posted on: May 14, 2009 - 1:18pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

I found another roster that lists Oneal Joshua, St2c in Ron 12 from January, 1944 to March, 1945. No boat number. Enlisted from Jacksonville, Florida.

Posted By: QM | Posted on: May 14, 2009 - 1:52pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

Old T.J. is sporting that classic white-socks-and-boondockers look.

Posted By: Drew Cook | Posted on: May 14, 2009 - 1:58pm
Total Posts: 1306 | Joined: Oct 19, 2006 - 10:44am

I had heard many years ago that this wonderful shot of this black steward serving a hot cup of Joe, was a set up shot for the camera's. I still have not heard of any black people serving with PT BOATS during WWII, and I suspect the US NAVY at that time would never permit this in a small time Navy such as the PT BOATS.

Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: May 14, 2009 - 2:39pm
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am

Frank,

You may be correct. I doubt that Oneal would have been assigned to a combat craft, no billets for a Stewards Mate on an individual boat. But it is possible that the squadron had a billet to serve the officers mess, such as it might have been, ashore.

Bill Smallshaw

Posted By: smallwi | Posted on: May 14, 2009 - 3:39pm
Total Posts: 134 | Joined: Jun 21, 2007 - 3:02pm

18 March 1943 LT jg T.J. LOVVORN was skipper of PT192 RON 12, and was later transferred to RON 11as skipper of PT 177 and is in ACQ as of July 30, 1944
TED

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: May 14, 2009 - 8:38pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am