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ť Forum Name: PT Boats - General
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ť Topic: PT 59
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Hi, All

After seeing Teds 1974 photo of the PT59/Sea Queen 5 I thought what a sad end for this boat. Out of interest I did some digging on Google Earth using the address on Teds photo, I did not expect much but gave it a try anyway, imagine my surprise when I had found the area that there appeared to be a rather large dilapidated pier in the area where she is shown in the photo.

After a bit of looking though I found that what appeared to be a pier seemed to have a rather interesting tapered end and very few pier supports that one would see if one was looking at a pier!

I wondered why after all this time that so much was still visible if it was indeed the 59 Boat, after further investigation I found that a local of the area had produced a number of videos of the area and that from a depth of around 8' at the time of the photo the cove that she rests in has silted up and is now mainly mud flats. This has had the effect of raising what remains of the boat up so that what remains of the deck is now a foot or so above the water, this is clearly seen in the video as he walks along the deck at what appears to a fairly high tide.

Now I have hit a snag, Lew on the board has sent me a flyer to the effect that there is a push on by a local developer to clear the cove out and an area of the Harlem River and concrete over all of the area thereby beautifying it?

Don't you LOVE developers!!

The videos that are on Utube are all 2012 and Google earth dates are 2014 so I don't have anything of the area for the last 2 years, I was wondering if there is someone on the board that may live in New York City and would like to visit the cove to see if she has been removed or she remains. If she remains then a few recent photos would be great .

The area I am referring to is Inwoods North Cove next to the 207th Street Bridge.

There are what appears to be two piers alongside the road on the side of the cove next to the rapid transit yards, the one in the centre is the one I am looking at, the other pier towards the end leads out into the Harlem River and was once a fairly large pier.

So if there is someone out there that might like to take a look at what could turn out to be the 59 Boat, let us know what you find.

Yours,

Dave.

Posted By: David Buck | Posted on: Jan 15, 2016 - 12:22am
Total Posts: 332 | Joined: May 4, 2008 - 2:59am

David;

Is this what you are referring to?

Inwood's Cove 1

Inwood's Cove 2

Inwood's Cove 3

Inwood's Cove 4

Inwood's Cove 5

Let me know.
Take care,
TED

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Jan 15, 2016 - 6:43am
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

David;
Looking at the old 1974 photo I posted, I am convinced that the Ex-PT 59 was moored to the pier which is in the upper right portion of photo #1. In the 1974 photo you can see the high buildings in the background, they are 250 degrees relative from this pier portion on google earth.
Granted they might have shoved her up into the cove, as I have no knowledge of this, but this piece of pier is where she is moored in the 1974 photo. Also the wooden pier which is now collapsed is in front of the boat.
Take care,
TED

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Jan 15, 2016 - 7:44am
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

I am in New York and might be able to get up there. Can folks on the forum give me any more background - - photos, leads, speculation, background papers and links - - before I go?
Thank you!
Author, "PT 109: An American Epic of War, Survival and the Destiny of John F. Kennedy"

William Doyle

Posted By: William Doyle | Posted on: Jan 15, 2016 - 7:58am
Total Posts: 57 | Joined: Jan 5, 2015 - 10:20am

Does this Wikipedia entry seem right to the folks on the forum, especially the last line that refers to "What was left was eventually removed"?
No source is listed for that phrase.
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_Torpedo_Boat_PT-59
Fate[edit][/url]
In a cruel twist of fate PT-59 quietly ended her days in the 1970s after having served (possibly since 1947) as a fishing boat in Manhattan. It had been thought this boat was formerly PT-95, a 78-foot Huckins PT Boat, a very different design, and this particular boat with no significant wartime history (used only for training), no immediate efforts were made to save the vessel. In fact PT-95 had been destroyed up in Newport, Rhode Island after her services were no longer needed in September 1945, and when the actual identity of this boat was discovered, James "Boat" Newberry, founder of PT Boats Inc., attempted to obtain the boat; however, the boat's ownership was tangled up in NYC probate court. Somehow a fire occurred, and the boat eventually sunk at its mooring, beside the 207th St. Bridge over the Harlem River, around 1976. The hull sat there for years and slowly fell apart and rotted away. Thus, an important historical artifact was lost due to a typing error. What was left was eventually removed and she has since been declared destroyed by the U.S. Coast Guard, Coast Guard Sector New York.

William Doyle

Posted By: William Doyle | Posted on: Jan 15, 2016 - 8:08am
Total Posts: 57 | Joined: Jan 5, 2015 - 10:20am

A 1970 photo of the former PT 59?
[url]http://www.mels-place.com/mmm/Party-Boats/Party-Boats-Page-17/slides/1092-sea-queen-v-1970.html[/url]

William Doyle

Posted By: William Doyle | Posted on: Jan 15, 2016 - 8:13am
Total Posts: 57 | Joined: Jan 5, 2015 - 10:20am

Bill;

That "1970" photo I too found on Mel's Place. I think it is mislabeled II think its around 1968 or 1969(just a feeling). Even though there was an electrical fire onboard, I don't think she became this in just 4 years,,,,,,,Here is my copy of the 1974 photo David and I are speaking of.

Take care,
TED

P.S. BTW That is my entry in Wikipedia as per info passed to me by PTHQ. As is the 1974 photo, that is AMG's hand writing on the Xerox.

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Jan 15, 2016 - 8:30am
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

Ted, thanks very much. Forgive me while I get up to speed - do you think that 1974 photo may show exactly where the remains of what was once the PT 59 was? If so, I can go up there and recon the area. Thank you!

William Doyle

Posted By: William Doyle | Posted on: Jan 15, 2016 - 8:44am
Total Posts: 57 | Joined: Jan 5, 2015 - 10:20am

Bill;
I honestly don't know. I do know as per info from PTHQ, that divers were used to declare it destroyed. I don't think they would need divers, where that pile of junk is in the Google Earth photos, even at high tide. Tidal range is only 4 feet for NY.
However, as I determined, the 1974 photo shows the boat at the end of the point(top right corner of first Google Earth photo, above) facing the now collapsed wooden pier. The two tall buildings in the background are 250 degrees (Relative), from the boats location.
Take care,
TED

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Jan 15, 2016 - 9:03am
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

Ted, sorry if this is covered elsewhere on the board but what was the source of the 1974 photo?

William Doyle

Posted By: William Doyle | Posted on: Jan 15, 2016 - 10:07am
Total Posts: 57 | Joined: Jan 5, 2015 - 10:20am

Thanks Ted for the Google images,

Here are a few of the things that helped me look a little closer at the wreck in image 5. One of the things that helped is that I am looking at a rather larger screen than a normal monitor so small details are a lot easer to pick out of the images

The !974 photo is a big help here , after looking at it for a while and the google images I wondered about the orientation of the hull to what appears back then to be some form of walkway, (which over the years has been turned into a road Ted is calling this the pier at the end of the road but by the time that the photo was taken she had I think moved into the cove), it is not impossible that at some point since the photo that the river herself has lifted the hull and moved her closer to the shoreline. Wrecks tend to end up in places that you don't expect them, and as she was made of timber this is quite possible.

Image 5 clearly shows what I believe to be the PT59,

Image 3 shows the pier at the right of the image that has decayed over time at the end of the road and extends into the Harlem river, with the 59 boat further into the cove, this is possibly the pier that she first sunk at.

So looking at image 5 here are a few things that I found interesting, the first is the row of timbers at the right hand side of the "pier", looking at the transom of an Elco boat there were a number of supports that ran top to bottom and also at quite an angle from vertical, it is a little hard to see in the google images but an angle can be seen to these "posts" ok not much but if you look at the spacing of these posts they correlate very closely to the Elco transom supports if one can find the utube videos and images they help as a side view rather than an overhead view is obtained, it shows that all of these posts are in line at the same angle, again not much but looking at it with the knowledge of the Elco construction it is a little interesting.

Plus posts that are driven into the bottom at an angle are generally round not square and over time tend to move so that they no longer line up, where as these are all square and line up quite well, also if they had been placed there to support an end pier post (which would have been quite substantial) then they would be there as well but they are not?.

Next when one looks to the pier at the end of the road in image 3 the main thing that stands out are the pier supports, as we all know these are mostly made of timbers around 12-20 inches in dia. and are spaced around three feet apart along the length of a rather large support beam, ref image 3, have a look at image 5 and try to find them.

Next why do the crossbeams in image 5 that jut out into the water have no form of support (ie piers) until they meet a beam that runs from end to end nearly a third of the way into the structure and where are the piers along this beam.

Also looking at this support beam most piers that I know have the support beams overlapping when they meet for strength not butt joined.

There are three full length beams in view, if you remove the middle one (I will get to it) the other two line up rather nicely with the Elco drawings of the deck, the middle beam is the keel, over time the hull has collapsed as most wooden hulls do so the keel has been pushed up by the action of the cove silting up and now rests under the deck.

OK there are other things that helped point out that I was looking at the 59 boat but someone that is a little closer and can also look a little closer with a PT Boat interest as a guide will help.

If further images will help try Utube for

Inwoods North Cove Restoration:Raw Data-C

This is a 20.15 minute video with the wreck running from 10.30-1315.

In the video the person filming walks from one end of her to the other, there are about three minutes all up however there are about 9 videos altogether some with her in, so there are lots of different scenes of her from different angles.

Will if you do get a chance to have a look you will note that there is really not much left of her but if some one does not have a look then we may just miss out on something that we all enjoy talking about.

Dave

Posted By: David Buck | Posted on: Jan 15, 2016 - 3:08pm
Total Posts: 332 | Joined: May 4, 2008 - 2:59am

David;
We have had a few people down there in the past, but I am running the photos through them to make sure.
Take care,
TED

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Jan 15, 2016 - 4:59pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

Food for thought...
[image]http://lewsmodelboats.org/PTGB-3-images/PT59restingplace.jpg[/image]

IF the CG pulled it further in (without rotating) it looks like the bottom overlay would match. The 20 and 77 foot dimensions are for reference and were measured on Google Earth. Can't tell with how much settling, tides, winds, deterioration, or vandalism may have distorted the remains.

[blue] Lew [/red]

Lew Zee

Posted By: Lew Zee | Posted on: Jan 15, 2016 - 10:11pm
Total Posts: 141 | Joined: Dec 12, 2013 - 12:04pm

Lew and Ted:
Thank you for this interesting discussion! Have a look at the video, starting at 11:45:

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ju2C0YQNNU[/url]

It includes closeups of metal pieces and long shapes of wood. I can't tell if this shows simply the ruins of a pier mixed with local junk, or something else. Some of it might be metal railings from the SEA BREEZE V. Does any of this detritus look like its PT-related? If so, perhaps the Coast Guard simply pushed the remains into the junk pile of the collapsed pier.

William Doyle

Posted By: William Doyle | Posted on: Jan 16, 2016 - 4:26am
Total Posts: 57 | Joined: Jan 5, 2015 - 10:20am

Bill and Lew;
Very interesting. However, most boats were cut down to at least 65' to get around Coast Guard requirements. PT 48 is actually listed on USCG documents as being 59' long.
Take care,
TED

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Jan 16, 2016 - 6:27am
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

That modified length sounds about right when looking at the Sea Queen V photo (when it was operating) as well as the sunk photo. I was just doing a rough estimate on the handrail stanchions to get a rough estimate of the boat's length an it does look shorter than 77 feet.

Just the overall look at the beam at the transom looks wider than the full length Elco 77.

The one person who could have clarified this matter, Donald K. Schmahl, the owner of Sea Queen V, died October 2015.

Then the question is, what can be done with the remains in such poor condition? I doubt anyone would do any massive and costly reconstruction. Perhaps a few boats could be recovered and sent to a PT boat museum for display.

Lew Zee

Posted By: Lew Zee | Posted on: Jan 16, 2016 - 3:19pm
Total Posts: 141 | Joined: Dec 12, 2013 - 12:04pm

Lew;
That's too bad, I wonder if any of his family remembers. Captain Gus Marinak owned her before Schmahl, her name was then "SUN TAN". She sailed out of the Bronx then.
TED

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Jan 16, 2016 - 4:06pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

Ted and Lew,

If either of you know how to get in touch with either family then maybe some answers could found. I have found in the past that family members are quite willing to assist in this sort of endeavor if approached in the right manner.

As far as what could be done with the remains well the sky's the limit as they say, from just the fact that she has been put back on the map to a full restoration, it all depends on who is interested and how far they would like to go.

I personally think that finding the funds to raise her in the first place is going to be quite hard and would present many a problem however as one of the last 77' boats that is still around she does present a bit of an opportunity, One that a bit of time and effort once a working plan was in place would be rather rewarding!

Dave

Posted By: David Buck | Posted on: Jan 16, 2016 - 5:11pm
Total Posts: 332 | Joined: May 4, 2008 - 2:59am

Hi guys,
This is all very interesting conjecture, I looked at the video and found it hard to imagine the size of those deck beams being correct for a 77 foot Elco. It looks like those are 2x6 beams on the deck and almost looks like the type of beams used to construct a dock. They appear way to heavy to be part of a PT Boat and I have been inside PT796 and PT617 and have done reconstruction on PT658 so I feel I have a unique perspective to be able to judge these things. However, the location makes me keep asking what else could it be? All that aside, to have any ideas of actually raising that rotten piece of junk and trying to rebuild it into a working boat is about the silliest thing I have ever heard. All of those beams are certainly rotten all the way through and would never hold up to even the most basic inspection for being re-used. All you could do at best would be to clean all of the excess junk off of it and display it as a rotten wreck of a former PT Boat! That being said, it is a sad end for such a noble boat. The guys in New Orleans started with a whole lot better specimen of the original PT305, and even then, they had to replace most every board in the entire hull. David, I admire your zeal for preserving historic objects, but I think it is not even a remote possibility that this boat ever be saved no matter how much money you had to spend on attempting it. I think it would be better served by just removing the wreckage from the cove and making it pristine again for all those geese and ducks and wild birds to enjoy without the yucky rotted garbage dump that this boat has become. Thanks for bringing this subject up I had no idea this boat wreck even existed.

Jerry Gilmartin
PT658 Crewman
Portland OR

Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Jan 16, 2016 - 10:40pm
Total Posts: 1472 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm

Hi Jerry,

Yes I agree with you about the effort needed to restore what is left in the cove to a working boat, I was just putting forward an answer as to what could be done if one was so inclined, but it would still be a lot easer to restore the 48 boat compared to the 59, I started this because it appeared that she had been forgotten when with a bit of effort her remains could be identified and at least she could be put back on the map, as the story going around was that she had been dredged up and disposed of.

So I decided to do a bit of digging myself to see if there was anything left and look what I found!

No plans to rebuild her just wanted to let the guys know she was still there and before they do get rid of her maybe one or two might like to visit her and get a few photos
.
Out of interest the JFK library may like a nod, sometimes that sort of enterprise can look at things a little differently to you and I, and as there is a push on to save the cove from being concreted over by those that are taking the videos maybe they would also like to know of the history of what they have there, little things like that may help them reach their goal.

So Jerry haven't quite lost the plot yet, just like digging around into PT Boat History to see what I can come up with, and you know sometimes you find something, that makes it all worthwhile.

Dave

Posted By: David Buck | Posted on: Jan 17, 2016 - 12:19am
Total Posts: 332 | Joined: May 4, 2008 - 2:59am

Jerry,

Still haven't found one that one can walk onto start the engines and sail away on yet, but one can still look, amazing what is out there if one spends just a little time doing that.

Dave.

Posted By: David Buck | Posted on: Jan 17, 2016 - 12:27am
Total Posts: 332 | Joined: May 4, 2008 - 2:59am

Hi David,
I still think it was amazing that you found this in the first place! Wow. Imagine how many others may still be out there somewhere unknown. I think of all the people out there, Ted and Dr. Ross probably have the best ideas of where some of these old ex PT boat hulls may be! So how about it Al and Ted? Any hot prospects?

Jerry Gilmartin
PT658 Crewman
Portland OR

Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Jan 17, 2016 - 1:28am
Total Posts: 1472 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm

I will reach out to the family of Donald Schmahl, and see if I can have a close-up look.

William Doyle

Posted By: William Doyle | Posted on: Jan 17, 2016 - 5:24am
Total Posts: 57 | Joined: Jan 5, 2015 - 10:20am

Jerry;
There are a few, but most are "they were disposed of" stories. Such as CAPT ANDERSON Vlll, which was Ex PT 601, this was supposedly hauled up on the beach in Tampa or Panama City and disposed of in the late 80's or early 90's.

I also knew of what looked like a 78' Higgins in Panama, that ran tourists and supplies to Taboga. I last saw her in 2003. No Clue what happened to her.

78' Higgins PT Named DONA moored at Balboa Yacht Club 1998.

The one I am interested in but, I really have no clue about is PT 40, she was named Flamingo ll (possibly NIKKO II) and worked in Miami with PT 48(which was named Flamingo l). both were owned by Nikko tours and worked out of Haulover Marina, Miami. The last I know of her is around 1976. However, a certain Key West business man (who once owned PT 728), mentioned in a symposium at the Nimitz Museum in 1997, that PT 40 and PT 48 and PT 140 were still around.

PT 40 on the job as NIKKO ll

PT 48 on the job as FLAMINGO I, 1980.

PT 48 as Nikko tour boat FLAMINGO I, with NIKKO IV(might be another 80 ELCO, maybe 140??) moored next to her. (in a photo dated 28 SEPT 1983, Miami.(This is a George Schneider photo).

I also believe this company owned one of the RON 4 80' ELCO's and they have a boat last registered in 1989 named NIKKO (USCG Doc # 273735), that was listed as built in 1944, 500 series(505 1/44, 545 8/44).

Take care,
TED

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Jan 17, 2016 - 7:30am
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

years ago when I had the 761 boat there was a guy that reached out to me. He had a barge and a crane plus dredging equipment. He disappeared but we were going to go over and look at what remained of the boat. Being a precarious area the best way was to go over by boat (his work boat). It never happened. I don't have the pc anymore that would have had his e-mail or contact info. I think his name was Steve but that was a few years ago now.
The said the stern was intact and bottom. Her stem stuck out but she burned down to the water line I guess. There would have been enough boat to grab. If it is still there it would be a good grab and historic one for sure.
unless its my eyes (pretty good chance it is) I cant see anything that resembles a boat in the above photos bar the 1974 one of her sunk.

Jimbo

Posted By: Jimbo Melanson | Posted on: Jan 22, 2016 - 1:18pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

I do not believe 59 was cut down in length as some others. I do not know how to post photos here yet (I forgot) but looking at 48 and being aboard her and looking at 59 as Sea Queen she was not cut. Documentation back then was not exact. 486 as Sightseer was listed as 77 feet on her papers

Jimbo

Posted By: Jimbo Melanson | Posted on: Jan 22, 2016 - 1:35pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

me again.......... but I do wonder if the boat is resting out in the deeper water near the outer end of the pier not the shallows where the debris field is from the old wharf.

Jimbo

Posted By: Jimbo Melanson | Posted on: Jan 22, 2016 - 1:46pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

I think what and where you think are the remains (not to say there could not be a piece or two?) of PT-59 is just the remains of the inner wharf. Those are all wharf timbers and pilings not boat timbers. In one of the videos mentioned in the post here a guy is walking on them (brave) and nothing resembles a boat among them.Certainly not an Elco boat timber I did have 761 for a few years.
I think over the 10 to 12 years since I have been contacted about her (59) time, silt, currents, hurricane Sandy and the fact that a barge could have scooped her up in a couple swoops she is gone. Last night looking at Google Earth there is nothing in the mud where she would have been moored that would indicate the remains of a hull. I even looked hard across the river on the other bank and all I can see it collapsed wharf.
As I said to Ted in an e-mail the only way to verify/satisfy would be to walk around down there for an hour or so at low tide. 4 plus hour drive for me but I am always up for this kind of thing. Maybe someday! You never know what is out there that may have been missed over all these years. If any of you are on Facebook please friend me I can add you to my little PT and Crash boat page I created there.

Jimbo

Posted By: Jimbo Melanson | Posted on: Jan 23, 2016 - 5:49am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

Hi Jimbo,

If one was standing on the old pier on the right of the google pictures and then took a picture of the boat lying alongside that pier as in the 1974 photos then one would have in the distance the urban transit yards, however in the 1974 picture we have a large white building with another tall multi faced building behind it. If one looks at the 1st google picture one sees a large white building with black/ dark roof, this is the same building that we see in the 1974 photo, if we look further into the google images we can find the large multi faced building behind the first building, by lining these buildings up with the angles from the 1974 photo it can be seen that the old pier that is still visible is at the wrong angle to be the one in the photo.

Also what is rather interesting is, what is the gent in the photo standing on, a constructed pier, a built up section of sea wall as there appear to be old sleepers by his feet( maybe from the transit auth.)also in the close background near the bow there appears to be a crane of some sort that has been driven up to the boat, I could be wrong but that's what it looks like to me, there to salvage the boat or it engines or just parked there who knows. This could mean that the road that we see in the google images has been there quite a while, lots of questions very few answers.

It does appear that the boat in the 1974 photo no longer lies were she went down and that opens up a whole can of worms that we can only wonder at. Other photos of that area from that time and up to today would be welcome.

If one looks at the video by the person walking along the "pier/ Boat" it appears that the deck/decking of the structure was 2-21/2"x1" boards run fore and aft, it also appears that at some point some one has sawn a fair number of them off, I don't know to much about how you build your piers over there but most piers over here use 3"x8"/10" as decking not 2"x1",this size timber I would think I would tend to find a shipwright using to replace a deck that needed it, deck supports could always be added as well if needed. I Still can't find the piers needed that should be there, I will keep looking.

One other thing that stands out is that very few piers are angled away at one end and at the other end appear to be tapered to a point?

However with that being said I do feel that the only way to find out if this is what's left of the 59 Boat is to go down there and dig through the mud a little and get some on the spot answers, till then we will only be guessing But what if it is her !!

Thanks

Dave

Posted By: David Buck | Posted on: Jan 23, 2016 - 8:28pm
Total Posts: 332 | Joined: May 4, 2008 - 2:59am

Hi David,
Like I said in my previous comment, I agree with Jimbo in that the timbers seen in the video appear to be much too heavy for them to have been part of a PT Boat. PT Boat deck was a 2 layer construction with inner and outer planking, The inner planks were about 3/8 thick and the outer layer was 3/4 inch thick for a total of just over 1 inch thickness. This is much thinner than what I can see in the video, they appear to be pretty substantial thickness seen edge on being cut off on top of 2x6 deck beams as is shown in the video. It just doesn't look right, to be honest. It looks like part of a dock like Jim says. Just my honest opinion.

Jerry Gilmartin
PT658 Crewman
Portland OR

Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Jan 24, 2016 - 9:09am
Total Posts: 1472 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm

Hi Jerry,

The 77' boats deck was built using ply, maybe sometime someone decided to replace it?

Maybe to support the new topsides, I don't know, and until someone goes and has a look "well---", but with the weather that I have been seeing over there it may be awhile.

By then I may have saved enough to fly over and see for myself maybe drop in and scare Frank just for the fun of it, why not, a break from home to chase up something that I like!

Weather it be her or not good reason for a trip, say when summer comes along after the snow and storms!

Ta

Dave

Posted By: David Buck | Posted on: Jan 25, 2016 - 1:24am
Total Posts: 332 | Joined: May 4, 2008 - 2:59am

Hi Dave,
Sounds like a good reason for a road trip! Also I think you should plan on the big launching of the PT305 hopefully sometimes this Summer! Those guys in New Orleans are being cagey and cant say the exact date right now, but I am sure Randy will let us know when the big day will be!
Jerry

Jerry Gilmartin
PT658 Crewman
Portland OR

Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Jan 25, 2016 - 11:23am
Total Posts: 1472 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm

I will figure out how to post an image sooner or later but the recent google earth pic I downloaded there is no boat. No scars in the mud nothing that resembles an Elco boat. I have built plenty of docks in my time being from Gloucester and around the water all my life.
In front of the original pier as you get deeper into the cove what I thought was an old pier turns out to be an old barge that is falling apart. The guy in the video walks on it (big kahonies I would not have) while filming. Also as you come out of the 207th street bridge and head toward 59's old dock location there is another pile of timbers to port just as you get to the cove. Not sure what that is could be a dying dock or barge also.
Sadly and un-respectfully I think she is gone. 12 years ago I was contacted about her when I had the 761 boat I was told I was crazy for wanting to come down for a look to see what was what. Maybe then there was a chance but the guy disappeared and I had my hands full trying to pickle the 761 and getting the project off the ground..But it appears the clean up has taken its toll on this Historical American artifact. it would have been worth it to save the remains since we did not have the 109. Even though I see what I see in the Google image I still think good look around the place at low tide could certainly verify. Maybe just her stem is gone and she is buried deep in the silt. There were concerns about what the EPA would say about disturbing the silt trying to get at her.

Jimbo

Posted By: Jimbo Melanson | Posted on: Jan 26, 2016 - 6:13am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

trust me....I do not want to be coming off as a know it all. I know all too well the searching for one of these boats. When you are so passionate about it and the pain of every lead the frustration of it not coming to fruition. Up ad down the entire east coast, lagoons, leads, phone calls, e-mails, photographs, volunteers that come and go or folks that do not commit to what they promise....endless hours and money.
I also know how bad a boat like this can hurt you. I got out of the 761 in the knick of time. Thankful that I still have my house and my marriage. Even being under a 501 C 3 I put up a lot of money just to get it pickled. The guy that haunted me for 2 years to take it...one he got it would not listen to those that were willing to help and now we no longer have the 761 among the remaining.
If you find one and have the opportunity to get one be sure there is an endowment that comes with the boat to help with preserving it otherwise you are paying a ton of money to take out the trash so to speak. It is hazardous waste. So unless you have very deep pockets or there is money or a museum with money behind it to help and keep things stable "BE VERY CAREFUL".

Jimbo

Posted By: Jimbo Melanson | Posted on: Jan 26, 2016 - 6:25am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

Hi Jimbo,

Well as I said to Jerry "I don't know" and as to your words to the wise I will agree about all of them, and my intention was not to start a restoration on the boat but to call attention to the fact that she may still be there, as the stories that have got around about her being dredged up turn out to be just that stories and not fact.

So with that in mind first lets just say that the city of New York did dig her up why would they replace her with an old barge that is just going to become another item to dig up in future years?

Also if they did dig her up around 12 years ago then the cove at that time would be well and truly silted up, not really worth putting a pier in then.

However one other fact that has come to light is that the cove was used from about the time that the boat was sunk in it as a general dumping ground for a large amount of toxic waste from the Transit Authority yards "nowhere else to toss it put it over the fence into the cove there's an old boat sunk there toss it on top of that' I can see the foreman giving that advice to those that needed to get of something that could not be got rid anyway else.

Here are a few things I found with a little bit of digging.

I have found that the cove was on the original plans for the Transit Authority yards the date given is 1930.

I next have a photo 1936? that shows the cove with a ferry leaving the "Landing Road Pier ( this is the name given to the large pier that is on the right of the Google photos that leads off into the Harlem river )with the cove at this time having nothing in it at all.

The next is an aerial survey 1937of the cove along the road, there is a large covered pier that was being used to depose of waste from the Transit Authority, this pier takes up more than 50% of the straight section of the road way , there appears to be a small pipeline leading away from the pier into the cove.

We jump a few years and the next one is a 1950 aerial survey, we now see that there are two piers the first along the roadway the second at right angles to it and fitted to its side closest to the shore or end of the cove, the shoreline has been moved to fit this pier in.
There are now 9 Boats that are tied up to the first pier with there sterns toward the roadway, it may be possible that one of the boats is the ex 59 boat as there is one that is fairly large. The information given is that the Transit Authority leased a number of berths to offset the cost of running the pier.

The next is a 1954 aerial survey not much has changed however the cove seems to be shrinking a little and we are missing one boat, the large boat is still there and out of interest she is tied up with her stern toward the road, at the end of the road next to the angle of the large pier.

We next move to 1960 the aerial survey shows that the second pier has been removed and that the number of boats has declined there now being only two in the cove, three of the others have moved further up the Harlem river and are berthed alongside a wharf at the end of a road that is beyond the north end of the transit yards, the large boat is still there.

Moving on to the photo of the 59 boat sunk in the cove, it is quite clear that the large pier that was in the earlier aerial surveys is no longer in the cove as its length would have been well over 100' long and around 40' wide and in the 1970 picture would have blocked out any view of the buildings in the background of the shot.

looking further I found another aerial survey of the cove taken In 1986 and guess what there appears to be a collection of timbers that match up with the currant google images, there are also two aerial surveys that were taken in 1990 and 1996 both are fairly fuzzie but they both show the same field as what we are seeing, so unless New York city replaces like for like when they "dug up the boat" then I would think that it may still be her, also I have photos here that show a boat that was there for at least twenty years before she sank, if a barge had been used to replace her then one would think that we would have been able to find photos of the barge as a barge, not a barge sunk and falling apart as if she had been placed there in a rotten condition ,remember they were on a clean up kick of some sort.

There was further information on the site where I found most of the aerial surveys mostly about the operation of the toxic waste dump from the Transit Authority but very little else.

So if you would like to have a look at the photos I can send them to Dick or Jerry to put up on the site but I would really like to find some further photos from the 1970s they would help answer a few questions.

And one final note stopping the video at certain points I found that the cross members of the boat may have been sistered up as I can identify two new beams with a old beam between them, there also is three rows of screws along the beams too, one in each new beam one in the old one.

Anyway just my two cents worth while I'm looking for something else to do.

Ta

Dave.

Posted By: David Buck | Posted on: Jan 28, 2016 - 5:02am
Total Posts: 332 | Joined: May 4, 2008 - 2:59am

Dave;
Send them! especially all that show the large boat.
Take care,
TED

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Jan 28, 2016 - 6:27am
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

Isn't it great to have Dick Tracy as a member

Unbelievably thorough workup.

Rick Schaefer
Splinter PT 63

TM2c John E Mirus
Solomon Islands
Dec 43 - Jan 45

Posted By: rickas | Posted on: Jan 28, 2016 - 2:58pm
Total Posts: 82 | Joined: Dec 26, 2013 - 5:16pm

I need your help.

As I build my PT-61 gunboat I have been searching and saving a lot of information. It all came from a lot of sources as no one site or book seemed to have it all.

Rather than just keep it to myself I decided to make organized pages on PT-59, 60, & 61 and post it on my web site. This is everything I found plus info about my model.

I am no expert on PT Boats and I want to get this site correct. So I am asking for anyone to:

1. Check my data and send my any corrections
2. Add any info that is missing.
3. Add any photos.
4. Make comments.

Also, feel free to pass this on to any others that know about these three boats. The more input I get the more confident I feel I am on the right track.

Site: [url]http://lewsmodelboats.org/PT-Index.htm[/url]

Email: info@lewsmodelboats.org

Thank you for your time.

Lew

Lew Zee

Posted By: Lew Zee | Posted on: Feb 4, 2016 - 1:23pm
Total Posts: 141 | Joined: Dec 12, 2013 - 12:04pm

Lew;
It was not the PT 48 Class, the PT 20 sub class was the PT 45 Class.
TED

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Feb 4, 2016 - 3:12pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

Lew,

Per PT 59,

The saying on your web site,

"There are two types of war Boats in the water : PT Boats and Targets- (unknown)

I had to have a good laugh at this as the PT 59 proved that beyond what anyone could expect!

And in doing so proved that the idea of the PT Boat as a torpedo delivery system, not a gun boat as many became was sound!

Dave.

Posted By: David Buck | Posted on: Feb 5, 2016 - 3:00pm
Total Posts: 332 | Joined: May 4, 2008 - 2:59am

Thanks for looking. Ted, I got the PT-45 sub class in. David, I found that quote somewhere but I can't remember. Both me and my son had a good laugh on that too. There were pretty mean looking boats with all those arms aboard.

The only boats (at that time) that one would think would surpass these might be those with the 4.5" rockets. But I read they were not very accurate and were only effective as a barrage weapon. How many would the have to fire to hit a barge? I certainly would not want to be in a barge with those rockets heading my way, accurate or not. But to have a gunboat firing a broadside would be an awesome site. I cant wait to get the model done and get a video up.

I update the site including adding the other pages in.

Lew

Lew Zee

Posted By: Lew Zee | Posted on: Feb 6, 2016 - 2:07pm
Total Posts: 141 | Joined: Dec 12, 2013 - 12:04pm

Or there's the John Bulkeley method. Board the bastards with a .45 and a Thompson Gun.

Will

Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Feb 6, 2016 - 5:29pm
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm

AAAARH WILL,

That's my kind of bloke, "Dam the torpedos full speed ahead",

OK I have found photos for the years that I could not find before, and aaaarh I blew it, the remains inside the cove are not from the PT 59, they are from a barge that had been placed there to act as a pier.

O-well back to the drawing board, I will say that what remains of her does appear to still be there in 2004 and maybe later as the area that she is in still lies within the mudflat area, "rather hard to get at" one would think, and there are still shadows that I can't identify in later years photos, so one day either there will be a nice low tide at the time of an aerial survey or maybe I will visit the area and walk the mudflats just for my own interest.

I have been trying to find any form of report that would help nail down the date she was removed, however no luck with that should be something around but nothing yet, anyone know who to ask to find something official?

Anyone interested try, HistoricAerials.com, search Harlem River then navigate your way to Inwoods North Cove start at 1974 on the left hand side and work your way up the years.

This has been fun and I'm a little sad that she may be gone but one can always hope!

Dave.

P.S. By the 1974 photo she appears to still be 77' long. this is rough as guts but in the photo she is roughly 5mm wide and 20mm long so 5 into 20 =4, 77' Elco is roughly 20' wide so roughly 77' not 65' as I said rough as guts!

Posted By: David Buck | Posted on: Feb 7, 2016 - 4:49am
Total Posts: 332 | Joined: May 4, 2008 - 2:59am

find when the next extreme low tide is and take a good look around. IT WILL ALWAYS BE WORTH IT! I too fear she is gone as I have said but.........no harm is looking.

Jimbo

Posted By: Jimbo Melanson | Posted on: Feb 8, 2016 - 5:40am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

Dave
Wow great detective work, the 1974 aerial on that site clearly shows her before she burned, so the photo was probably taken in 1973 or so. Awesome. Then in the 1980 photo, she is sunk in the same place, a little different location than what we thought, I thought it was on the corner of the pier area. 2004 you can still see her. All the other photos must have been taken at high tide. But if someone can get up there, they know exactly where to look.
Thanks!
Take care,
TED

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Feb 8, 2016 - 6:16am
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

Where are these photos? Would love a look

Jimbo

Posted By: Jimbo Melanson | Posted on: Feb 8, 2016 - 7:15am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

Hi Ted,

Thanks, for some reason I just had to keep looking, glad I did the photos really help to nail a timeline and position down also as you can see in the 2004 colour shot the mudflat extends much further than where she is..It has been said that she was dredged up in 2003 but I really wonder if they would get that close with it being so shallow, o-well time will tell.

Jimbo,

HistoricAerials.com

Put Harlem River New York in the search box click search and with a little luck it will take you there, the first time I tried it I ended up in Miami ??? WHAT THE ---- so I tried again and it worked .

Once there, there are a line of year dates on the left and as you move between dates the same area of the photo is displayed, not bad!

If you do go and look let us know what you find, might not be the right time of year at the moment but you will know that better than I!

Good luck.

Dave.

Posted By: David Buck | Posted on: Feb 8, 2016 - 8:54pm
Total Posts: 332 | Joined: May 4, 2008 - 2:59am

Amazing detective work! The remains of the boat were not destroyed around 1974. The 2004 aerial photo, taken evidently at low tide, clearly reveals the shape of the boat in the right spot. I will go up there as soon as I can, though it may be tricky to access that area if it is a fenced-off transit yard as it appears. I shall report, I expect in the next few weeks.

William Doyle

Posted By: William Doyle | Posted on: Feb 9, 2016 - 4:24am
Total Posts: 57 | Joined: Jan 5, 2015 - 10:20am

I looked. 74 and then again 1980 she is in the same spot I check a few others approaching the year 2004 but those pics were too merky. It looks like she was still there in 2004 but after that gone. Again....maybe......she is still there covered in silt.

Jimbo

Posted By: Jimbo Melanson | Posted on: Feb 9, 2016 - 7:51am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

Should not have much of a problem getting there according to the map:
[image]http://lewsmodelboats.org/PT-59-hulk/InwoodNorthCreek.jpg[/image]

Lew Zee

Posted By: Lew Zee | Posted on: Feb 9, 2016 - 8:29am
Total Posts: 141 | Joined: Dec 12, 2013 - 12:04pm

For a look at the cove check out this HD video. (Don't forget your boots.)
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0LGCaYg7Qg[/url]

Also found:

To get to North Cove, walk through the parking lot off 9th Avenue just north of 207th Street in Manhattan.

There is also a Facebook page:

[url]https://www.facebook.com/thenorthcove[/url]

May be worth it to contact them before you go - maybe a guided tour? Looks like Jim Birdman Cataldi has stomped through it all.

Lew Zee

Posted By: Lew Zee | Posted on: Feb 9, 2016 - 8:52am
Total Posts: 141 | Joined: Dec 12, 2013 - 12:04pm

Hey Lewis I've been trying to contact you via e-mail. If they're not getting through would you please e-mail me? Thanks...

Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Feb 13, 2016 - 4:30pm
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am

Has anyone seen this boat yet?
ThePTboater

Posted By: ThePTboater | Posted on: Feb 27, 2016 - 5:50am
Total Posts: 136 | Joined: Jan 17, 2016 - 1:28pm

I was just up there. That area is fenced off tight and inaccessible by land. I will go through channels and investigate but it may take awhile. Will report.

William Doyle

Posted By: William Doyle | Posted on: Feb 27, 2016 - 3:04pm
Total Posts: 57 | Joined: Jan 5, 2015 - 10:20am

I know no one as of yet has seen it, but what are the expectations for this wreck if found?
I know mahogany is somewhat rot resistant, but how would it be after 40 or so years in the water?
That and you have to consider the fire that apparently ravaged it's decks.
ThePTboater

Posted By: ThePTboater | Posted on: Mar 7, 2016 - 11:10am
Total Posts: 136 | Joined: Jan 17, 2016 - 1:28pm

I know no one as of yet has seen it, but what are the expectations for this wreck if found?
I know mahogany is somewhat rot resistant, but how would it be after 40 or so years in the water?
That and you have to consider the fire that apparently ravaged it's decks.
ThePTboater

Posted By: ThePTboater | Posted on: Mar 7, 2016 - 2:30pm
Total Posts: 136 | Joined: Jan 17, 2016 - 1:28pm

It also appears that the weather since 2004 may have had a bit of an impact on what was left to.

Quite wild I believe from the photos I have seen!

As far as what is to be done with her, well that,s a very open question and would depend on how much interest her history would generate, at the very least some form of recovery ,stabilization of what remains and placement in a museum setting would be nice, with a few notes and a pic'e or two to assist those interested.

Dave.

Posted By: David Buck | Posted on: Mar 7, 2016 - 9:28pm
Total Posts: 332 | Joined: May 4, 2008 - 2:59am

Will

Great to see that you have been to the cove, didn't expect it to be fenced off!

Will await further details (no pun intended)

Dave.

Posted By: David Buck | Posted on: Mar 7, 2016 - 9:32pm
Total Posts: 332 | Joined: May 4, 2008 - 2:59am

As Dave notes, interest and $ are the key. Even if a 12 inch piece of her original keel can be recovered and scabbed into a new keel/new hull, this construction is officially considered a historical restoration. However, there is only two places that can generate the kind of $ required for that, and as of this date, they have not done anything, simply because, the funds are needed elsewhere.
Take care,
TED

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Mar 8, 2016 - 8:48am
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

But it is most likely all that might happen is just that 12 inch piece finding its way to a display case somewhere. Providing, there is even anything still there, unless somebody gets in the water, we will never know.
Take care,
TED

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Mar 8, 2016 - 8:48am
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

Ahh

Now Ted I think that you have hit the nail cleanly on the head unless someone "gets in the water" as you said and finds a piece of her then,

A. That piece cannot be displayed

and

B. Once the $ line up with the interest then that piece can then form the centre of a restoration.

So without the interest of this board and other like minded people then in time the Boats would disappear, what a sad end that would be!

Photos and movies are great ways to remember history but if you have a chance to walk were these men walked and stand on the deck of their fighting vessel then that as far as I am concerned gets you as close as one can to those times, having been in the south pacific and walked through the old base areas,and watched the sun go down over the islands knowing that the men of the PT Boats saw the same sights, well all one needed was an Elco /Higgens with those V12 engines.

You get the idea.

Dave

Posted By: David Buck | Posted on: Mar 8, 2016 - 11:52pm
Total Posts: 332 | Joined: May 4, 2008 - 2:59am

can someone please upload a picture from google earth specifically highlighting where pt-59 was seen in 2004?
I have been looking and cant determine what in the picture is the 59 boat.

Posted By: ThePTboater | Posted on: Mar 25, 2016 - 6:36pm
Total Posts: 136 | Joined: Jan 17, 2016 - 1:28pm

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ju2C0YQNNU
is this the wreck that the person is standing by?[/url]

Posted By: ThePTboater | Posted on: Mar 25, 2016 - 6:55pm
Total Posts: 136 | Joined: Jan 17, 2016 - 1:28pm

What worries me is that in 2012 it seems they carried out a large cleanup operation in that area, im hoping the 59 wasn't trashed.
:(
ThePTboater

Posted By: ThePTboater | Posted on: Mar 25, 2016 - 7:02pm
Total Posts: 136 | Joined: Jan 17, 2016 - 1:28pm

I agree that the changing tide had a lot to do with it, as well as the fact that she might be sinking into the mud more and more over time.
I went to historic aerials and looked at the photos, indeed 59 was there in 74, 80, disappeared for a while, returns somewhat in 2004, and then disappears again.

Posted By: ThePTboater | Posted on: Mar 25, 2016 - 7:21pm
Total Posts: 136 | Joined: Jan 17, 2016 - 1:28pm

Shipmates,
If you guys want to see a real PT Boat all you have to do is come to Portland or New Orleans or Fall River or Fredericksburg or Port Clinton and you wont even have to go wading in hip deep mud! Maybe we all need to step back and take a reality check here guys. If you want to see a real 77 foot Elco, you could go see PT48 up in Kingston NY. It is hard to fathom this much effort being considered over what will most likely amount to a few rotten pieces of keel.
Sorry I had to let it all out.
Jerry

Jerry Gilmartin
PT658 Crewman
Portland OR

Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Mar 26, 2016 - 1:09am
Total Posts: 1472 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm

Even still, anything left would still be a good piece for a museum or something, who knows, maybe if just started digging, ole pt-59 would surprise us somewhat.
ThePTboater

Posted By: ThePTboater | Posted on: Mar 26, 2016 - 5:00am
Total Posts: 136 | Joined: Jan 17, 2016 - 1:28pm

Hi Jerry,

While I think those that can will make every effort to visit the PT 658 when we can I also think that any find of a PT Boat that had been lost is worth a little discussion, only a little mind you, as to your reality check while I would like to visit the 48 Boat the prime object would be to assist in getting her restored however, the currant owners price tag of $500,000.00 for a boat that was a gift to him so that he could restore it is a little high, also a discussion that seems to have stalled appears to have put her out of the game so to speak.

Pretty high starting price for a few pieces of timber what! ( history aside)

This is probably why the 59 Boat has received so much interest being that if there is any chance that a Elco 77' boat or parts thereof could become a basis for a restoration then for a lot less cost parts of her could be obtained for a lot less than say $500,000.00.( maybe)

That she will become the basis for a restoration is highly unlikely unless of course,

the planets align,

we all learn to breath underwater,

man flies without wings,

the green house effect is reversed,

O and maybe if one of us finds an extra few million in a back pocket somewhere !!!

but it's still interesting to see if anything of her remains.

On that I am indeed interested.

Have a good night Jerry,

Dave.

Posted By: David Buck | Posted on: Mar 28, 2016 - 4:25am
Total Posts: 332 | Joined: May 4, 2008 - 2:59am

Even if the boat is too far gone to even consider restoration, i would still want to see the boat as it is now, im sure something can be out in a museum at least, something along the lines of" the boat kennedy commanded" or something like that, i mean we aren't getting 109, so this is the best alternative.
ThePTboater

Posted By: ThePTboater | Posted on: Mar 28, 2016 - 9:59am
Total Posts: 136 | Joined: Jan 17, 2016 - 1:28pm

Thanks Dave,
I had to LOL when I read your explanations. Also Nic I had forgotten the link to JFK. Let me know when you guys find something!

Jerry Gilmartin
PT658 Crewman
Portland OR

Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Mar 28, 2016 - 10:14am
Total Posts: 1472 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm

I suppose I am one of the few guys left that actually set foot aboard the 59. I was not a crew member but we berthed next to the 59 in the mangrove bushes at Vella La Vella for 2-3 weeks. She was a gunboat then with 40 mm bow and stern with 4-50's port and starboard. Of course a lowly seaman like me did not know Officer Kennedy but we knew some of the crew. The officers lived in tents on the beach and were not on the boats much except when we left to go on patrol. One of the crewmen (I think the quartermaster) gave me a 45 automatic Army issue pistol when they left to come back to the States which I carried until I came home. After they left, the 60 boat, also a gunboat, took their spot and we berthed next to them.until the big fuel dock fire December 14, 1943 that closed the base at Vella La Vella and we moved up to Treasury and operated with Ron 9 until the last of January when Ron 19 was relieved from patrols after being in.the combat zone and patroling for 12 weeks. One half of our crew was given R& R for 2 weeks to New Zealand. My name was not drawn out of the hat so we stayed and cleaned the bottom of the boat and added two more twin fifties on the bow while they were gone.. We were promised to get to go on R & R later but it never happened..

C. J. Willis

Posted By: CJ Willis | Posted on: Mar 28, 2016 - 12:17pm
Total Posts: 464 | Joined: Nov 5, 2006 - 5:02pm

Thanks, C.J. Good info....

Will

Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Mar 28, 2016 - 10:27pm
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm

C.J.

Thankyou Sir, as someone that has walked the deck of this boat during that time your service and personal accounts are priceless.

Yours,

Dave.

Posted By: David Buck | Posted on: Mar 29, 2016 - 12:06pm
Total Posts: 332 | Joined: May 4, 2008 - 2:59am

You never know what we could get when it comes to a boat that been in the water and mud for about 42 years or so. As of now i guess we can be sure shes mostly buried in the mud, which hopefully at least preserved some of the boat.
It doesn't seem(at least from pictures i have seen)the fire that sank her did much to the hull itself, it seems that the topside superstructure(which isn't important) was pretty much destroyed.
Any idea how deep the cove is in that area that she sank?
ThePTboater

Posted By: ThePTboater | Posted on: Mar 30, 2016 - 10:13am
Total Posts: 136 | Joined: Jan 17, 2016 - 1:28pm

Thanks CJ I Always love listening to your stories of being out there...............

Posted By: Frank Andruss | Posted on: Mar 30, 2016 - 12:21pm
Total Posts: 3964 | Joined: Feb 9, 2007 - 11:41am

All;
NOAA Chart 12342 (24th Edition May 2013, last corrections made 8/12/2015), shows a sounding depth of 9 feet at the exact location. Depth out in the river, in that area ranges from 18-22 feet.
Take Care,
TED

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Mar 31, 2016 - 7:44am
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

I am amazed she has not been dragged out of the silt yet. Last I knew back around 04 - 05 when that guy reached out to me you could still see her stem sticking out of the mud. It is the disturbing of the toxic silt and mud that would bring up an issue

by all means keep digging!!

Jimbo

Posted By: Jimbo Melanson | Posted on: Mar 31, 2016 - 4:27pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

My only worry is that if any recovery becomes reality, I'm hoping she doesn't fall to pieces😬
Judging by those historicaerials photos, she has a broken up deck at 1980, and in 2004 it seems to have progressed significantly, though whatever lies below the surface is the true proof of whether or not she's in order.
ThePTBoater

Posted By: ThePTboater | Posted on: Mar 31, 2016 - 7:23pm
Total Posts: 136 | Joined: Jan 17, 2016 - 1:28pm

Interesting,

While digging out the area for deeper foundations at ground zero the workers came across a vessel that had been placed there to assist to build up the shoreline many years ago. The city of New York stopped all work in that area, moved a team of people in and quickly removed the remains of the vessel to a conservation area so that work could continue.

That's what I read on the net a few weeks back.

That's what they are prepared to do for an old hulk that no one wanted and was disposed of in that manner all those years ago, wonder what they would do if the right people were contacted and had it explained to them what a piece of history they have sitting in the Harlem river?

Also just wondering if there is anything left imagine what would happen if nothing has been done now what would happen in 100 years or so if someone stumbles onto the 59 boat while digging around in what has become an extended shoreline?

Dave.

Posted By: David Buck | Posted on: Apr 1, 2016 - 5:14am
Total Posts: 332 | Joined: May 4, 2008 - 2:59am

I think if you present this to the local authorities and have a plan to deal with whatever toxins in the silt you could get permits to do an exploration and possibly remove the boat. I would not just go and start disturbing the mud without a permit. That would be trouble on many levels.
If you could walk the cement retaining wall (carefully) hanging onto the fence and get out to the dock area at low tide you may find her print in the mud if she is still there. I will assume that toredo worms and gribbles would not do well in that mud what ever may be left would be fairly solid bar at the tide line,
if she still exists she would be right there next to the pier where she sank (refer t o 1974 photo)
write up a plan present her as President Kennedy's second boat after the loss f the 109..........

Jimbo

Posted By: Jimbo Melanson | Posted on: Apr 1, 2016 - 6:38am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

I agree jimbo, im definately interested in finding out how the wooden structure has held up over the years.
Was 59 coated in anything when converted to a fishing boat, at least that we know of?
Fiberglass?
ThePTboater

Posted By: ThePTboater | Posted on: Apr 1, 2016 - 8:25am
Total Posts: 136 | Joined: Jan 17, 2016 - 1:28pm

if she was covered with anything it would be delaminated by now. most f the time when a boat gets glassed over it is because her structural integrity is compromised. they cant get them tight anymore so glass em over. It is a kiss of death really....you just seal in the rot and moisture at that point

486 was sheathed in epoxy and a skin of 1/8th inch mahogany veneer. The reason Schumann did this was because at the water line during the winter you had ice gnawing at the wood and in summer rain and salt water meet and wreak havoc on the mahogany causing rot. So the sheathing wood in epoxy acts as a sacrificial component to the hull. she was a very dry boat when in service as Sightsee'r. He kept the boat in order as he had to make a living. She was not like most other wooden charter boats I have seen over the years.

Jimbo

Posted By: Jimbo Melanson | Posted on: Apr 2, 2016 - 5:49am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

Jim and Nic;
I would tend to think she was not glassed over. The photo of her as Sea Queen appears like the planks are visible. Just to add to what Jim said about glassing, also if the boat was not permitted enough time for the hull to dry, the moisture will cause the fibreglass to separate from the hull. I saw a lot of this on Long Island in the late 60's and early 70's when guys thought they would cheat the system and avoid going to the boatyard every year. One of my Dad's friends did this to a 1960 55' Chris Craft Constellation, then he left it in the water for the winter, and the ice and temperature just cause a section on the port side to delaminate and "rip or crack" down past the waterline. he ended up paying double to get it fixed. He was never satisfied after that, and sold the boat 2 years later. The next owner ended up having the glass removed by my cousin.
Take care,
TED

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Apr 2, 2016 - 7:29am
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

Thanks for the info Ted, I agree fiberglass can be a pain sometimes, that's for sure.
ThePTboater

Posted By: ThePTboater | Posted on: Apr 3, 2016 - 10:49am
Total Posts: 136 | Joined: Jan 17, 2016 - 1:28pm

I'm the author of EPIC VOYAGE:The Greatest PT Boat Story Never Told-PT59 And Her Two Skippers. I feel PT 59 is still there where she was last moored...waiting for someone to care. She is there...fairly intact yet I can't on my own resurrect her.But from these photos and maps it is easy to see her...mistaken for a barge by untrained eyes, there she lays. If you can bring up a Viking ship and restore her, then you can have PT 59 back. If you can raise a Elizabethan ship and restore her then there is your ultimate glory. If a state or country cares enough about the past...then she can be raised and restored.There is no shame in this endeavor...only that we care enough to do something...anything...the right thing. I've tried to get the Kennedy Library involved but as part of the National Archives...they can only accept donations. They can't pay for it but they would accept it. We must come together and organize into a group and use every avenue to save our heritage, what is to my mind a national treasure.If I captured everyone whoever posted to this forum (which I treasure) and said this is the one project where we could all come together and organize and we each pledge $25 dollars, we could raise her. If you care I will propose we all become The Armed and Dangerous PT Boat Preservation Group..we could do great things...not only for us but for our children and our grandchildren and those who come after us. My book is a .99 cent e-book on Amazon but I would pledge everything I earn to this project. I need everyone to be with me on this! Thank you for this highly personal post.I hope and know I will be understood!

Posted By: Michael Engelmann | Posted on: Jul 26, 2016 - 8:27pm
Total Posts: 4 | Joined: Jul 17, 2016 - 1:03pm

The discussion that will not die! I wonder if they can find what color paint was on the PT59 when JFK was commanding her? Do you think there are any traces of the radar mast and was it up or down? Hmmm. Questions that need answered. Good luck in this endeavor!

Jerry Gilmartin
PT658 Crewman
Portland OR

Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Jul 27, 2016 - 3:10pm
Total Posts: 1472 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm

SURE, Jerry....Keep stirring the pot!

Will

Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Jul 27, 2016 - 3:57pm
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm

LOL Sorry Will, I just could not help myself. Tee Hee

Jerry Gilmartin
PT658 Crewman
Portland OR

Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Jul 28, 2016 - 2:04am
Total Posts: 1472 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm

Sounds like a plan michael!
I understand that being a wooden boat there is likely going to be lots of wood damaged(obviously), but who knows, we may be surprised by what is still in the water.
Based on photos of pt-59 after she burned, it seems only topside was affected, not the hull much itself(if at all).
ThePTboater

Posted By: ThePTboater | Posted on: Jul 29, 2016 - 3:51pm
Total Posts: 136 | Joined: Jan 17, 2016 - 1:28pm

Nic;
If a 12 inch piece of the keel can be saved, it is still officially recognized as a true restoration, by NHSA.
TED

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Jul 29, 2016 - 4:49pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

Let's remember PT 59 survived the Solomon Islands and was shipped from there back to Melville....
.... where she served as practice for new PT Boat recruit carpenters. Maybe the most important member of the maintenance base which was so lacking in the Solomon Islands....
Boats with patches on them, etc.
Probably with her engines removed she taught young PT Boat carpenters their secret language.Until the war ended.
Then some boats...practically brand new ...were sold for as little as $1000.00.
A thousand dollars....
If I told you she lays at her last mooring...as these photos so eloquently show....
and she's still there....
In New York City....
You would accuse me of another tall tale.

Posted By: Michael Engelmann | Posted on: Jul 29, 2016 - 11:01pm
Total Posts: 4 | Joined: Jul 17, 2016 - 1:03pm

Michael;

No, PT 59 and PT 47 were not used as teaching aids as PT 40 and PT 48 were. PT 39 had an engineroom explosion after being returned to Melville, so it too was used as a teaching aid for the carpenters and other trainees.PT 38 which we recently discovered was also returned, is seen in front of what looks like an engine shop, so it too, to a certain extent was used as a teaching aid.
PT 59's deck and hull was stressed from at least six months of carrying those 40mm's and 10 .50 cals plus mounts and 25 lb 5/8 inch thick STS armor plates on the original deck. Add to this, the weight of fuel, men, and ammo load out(in PT 61's log book I read an average nights mission load out for the gunboats was 400 rounds of 40mm and 5600 rounds of .50 cal), this is a lot of weight and added stress, in addition to them already being out there for a year, pounding in heavy seas. As an added note, the gunboats also carried 2 bazookas per boat for sinking barges, after automatic weapons had suppressed all return fire.
PT 47 before returning was used as a test bed by RON 3(2) for 4.5 inch rocket launchers. two racks carrying 12 rockets each were used, a USMC T66 launcher was modified by base force.

Both boats were sent to NAS Norfolk upon return to US to be used as Air Sea Rescue boats, then they went to NOB Philadelphia for dehydration tests, while both were undoubtedly repaired to a certain extent, they were not rebuilt like the others, the time line for both does not allow it. now what was done after the war. I don't know.
Take care,
TED
P.S. I also have a copy of RON 3(2)'s VERY detailed 8 January 1944 marine survey inspection, for each boat in the squadron, several months prior to decomm and distribution of the boats.

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Jul 30, 2016 - 7:35am
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

Thanks for supplying some hard info, Ted.

Will

Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Jul 30, 2016 - 11:06pm
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm

Ted, just wondering about the images of yours on the first page of this post, looking at the second and third images if one looks at the area that we now know were the boat was one can see an object in the water, if we go to historic aerials 2012 image one can see objects in the water in the same area?

Where those images new or a little older than the post?

Now I know that the area has been restricted thanks to one of our members visiting so it is a little hard to wander around, I was just wondering that as some of the members of this board have an interest in the new hobby of drones with a camera attached then one might be able to view the area in that way if a member who lives close enough would want to do so?

D.buck

Posted By: David Buck | Posted on: Aug 1, 2016 - 9:17pm
Total Posts: 332 | Joined: May 4, 2008 - 2:59am

Thanks to David Buck and Ted Walther we now know PT 59's final resting place. There is no way I can let this information just lie here on our internet posts. I can't believe that my posts have been met with snarky responses because I've read every post on this site and no one has been disrespected on this site until my posts. It makes me feel sad that all of our experts and respected author and researchers and REAL Pt Boat Veterans would pooh, pooh my endeavors. Have we as authors and researchers and Vets become so complacent that we will allow this boat to rot? I cannot bear the responsibility of doing nothing. I cannot understand the hatred for JFK among the PT Boat community. In your passive-aggressive way you force me to take action. I will raise this boat with or without your help but let me say I expected much more from the PT Boat community.
You probably don't deserve to know why yet I will tell you... quite simply.
I will do it because it matters....Yes to me personally but to my children and their children...my grandchildren need to know this story and this boat. You established authors who feel so threatened by my posts, you have my sympathy. When the time came you choose to sit on the sidelines and watch. True PT Boaters know where there is a will there is a way. I've recommended this sight to others and I said they are never disrespectful nor dismissive...now I know better.I will raise this boat with or without you.

Posted By: Michael Engelmann | Posted on: Aug 1, 2016 - 9:27pm
Total Posts: 4 | Joined: Jul 17, 2016 - 1:03pm

Hi Michael, how about a pm my email is listed.

D.buck

Posted By: David Buck | Posted on: Aug 1, 2016 - 9:34pm
Total Posts: 332 | Joined: May 4, 2008 - 2:59am

Hey Mike,
Sorry if I came across as dismissive or snarky. Not my Intent. I wish you every bit of luck and well wishes. If you go back far enough and read the Forum you will see that the whole mystique of JFK is really blown far out of proportion compared to his involvement with PT Boats. However, when a completely uninformed neophyte off the street is asked about PT Boats, the only thing they may even know is that "That was the boat JFK was on, right?" and that is so maddening to all those OTHER PT Boat vets who also served proudly on PT Boats, that they are all conveniently forgotten and all the things they accomplished don't seem to matter very much to any of the JFK fanboys around. It seems to me that we have already recovered several existing accessible PT Boat Hulls, and we should spend our limited resources on restoring them, before we attempt a new recovery on a boat that may not even exist. I am speaking of PT48, PT305, PT309, PT459, PT617, PT619,PT486, PT657 and a few others I cant recall right now. I personally have devoted over 20 years of my life towards restoring an actual operating WW2 PT Boat, out here in Portland OR, called PT658. So I know a thing or two about the actual work that is involved in restoring these wooden boats to museum quality condition. On our boat, that had never permanently sunk, we had to replace a lot of rotten wood and virtually every fastener that had simply turned into POWDER, all throughout the boat. I cant even imagine how much worse it would be on a boat that has been under brackish water and mud for 50 years from the PT59. When you say that some of us will "allow this boat to rot" I wanted to let you know that the PT59 ALREADY HAS ROTTED far past any recognizable condition, based on my experience with restoring a much younger vessel than PT59. As for the legacy of PT Boats being passed down to future generations, we have given tours to busloads of the general public and to numerous school children, Boy Scouts and Sea Scouts, as well as numerous veterans groups to visit a real PT Boat where they can see and touch, and then hear the growl of those massive Packard engines as they are all started up. I have personally witnessed a PT Boat veteran touch the engines inside the engine room and then start crying, because they were what got him out of danger and back home after a hard battle. Along with the PT Museum in Fall River and the Nimitz Museum in Texas and soon the WW2 Museum in New Orleans, our groups have exposed literally thousands of people over the last 15 years to PT Boats and their story. To be sure, JFK is a big part of that story. In fact we are putting a section dedicated to him inside our museum that we are completing soon here in Portland. I think the best way to continue that PT Boat legacy is to work with the boat hulls that we already have which are also in great need of repair and restoration. As for the task of raising and repairing PT59, there remain great obstacles to overcome in the physical process of recovering and then restoring that boat. This doesn't even address trying to raise any kind of funding to pay for all of this work. Then try getting enough volunteers to help you and that is a whole different problem. Another difficulty arises when the mud is disturbed as the remains are dug up that may release toxic waste into the cove. I imagine there are also regulations that must be met as well as fees and Environmental Impact studies that must be done as required by the EPA or the NY State Dept of Ecology. So that is why I am a tad bit incredulous! Because to me it sounds a little too "pie in the sky" to be feasible. I suggest that you may want to approach the US Navy Museum or the Naval History and Heritage Command in Washington DC to see if they could help out like they are helping with the recovery of the USS Monitor civil war wreck off the coast of North Carolina, or the USS Constitution in Boston. Maybe they could recommend some resources that you could use. But all in all, I am not against you or your efforts. Again I apologize for the snark. Good luck in your momentous endeavor! Jerry

Jerry Gilmartin
PT658 Crewman
Portland OR

Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Aug 2, 2016 - 12:24am
Total Posts: 1472 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm

[red]Thanks to David Buck and Ted Walther we now know PT 59's final resting place. There is no way I can let this information just lie here on our internet posts. I can't believe that my posts have been met with snarky responses because I've read every post on this site and no one has been disrespected on this site until my posts. It makes me feel sad that all of our experts and respected author and researchers and REAL Pt Boat Veterans would pooh, pooh my endeavors. Have we as authors and researchers and Vets become so complacent that we will allow this boat to rot? I cannot bear the responsibility of doing nothing. I cannot understand the hatred for JFK among the PT Boat community. In your passive-aggressive way you force me to take action. I will raise this boat with or without your help but let me say I expected much more from the PT Boat community.
You probably don't deserve to know why yet I will tell you... quite simply.[/red]

What endeavors? Insulting every member of this board? Jumping on a soapbox with vague ideas? Except for a very specific dollar amount, $25. Let's do the math. To raise 2.5 million that would take 100,000 members.

How about rather than getting all butt hurt, you outlay a plan to raise her rather than alienate everyone here that love all things PT. Like how you are going to get permission to disturb toxic sludge so you can prove without doubt that it is indeed PT 59.

Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Aug 2, 2016 - 5:15am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am

Jerry;
I agree with all. FYI, The Kennedy family has known about this PT 59 and its location for years, and they have done nothing. The Navy Museum has known where the remains of this boat is, that I know of, since 1996. When I told them.

But PT 48 was in danger of being confiscated and destroyed by the State of Virginia. So I contacted Kim Nielsen, then a curator at the Navy Museum. They sent a team of Carpentry experts and a marine surveyor from the USS Constitution to Claytor Lake. Virginia , just to perform a marine survey on PT 48, They were all thrilled at the condition she was in. This is why they were so interested in obtaining PT 48, I sent a whole proposal to the curator(including a set of 1941 blueprints for a cradle). The Vice CNO was extremely interested in PT 48, but then the leadership changed before a move or deal could be made, Howard kept waffling on the price. Then he moved the boat to Fruitland, Florida. Before long we were involved in the war against terror and the funding for new projects at the Navy Museum, went where it was need more, the war.

Now as you mentioned in your post, there are several other considerations since the remains, if still there, are in the NYC area. As a born New Yorker (Long Island), I know a something about this area,
First and foremost, the Harlem River has been a toxic cesspool ALWAYS! Hell I have been a certified diver since 1993 and I don't even want to go in there in a drysuit!!! Only in the last 15 years has things started to change. I am sure the EPA will have a team sitting on the pier observing everything.

Second, permission has to be obtained to dive there, probably from the city and the state. I don't think it is permitted to "recreationally" dive within city limits. Since it is "moored/sunk" to MTA property, permission must be obtained by the property owner, since the security fence is so close to the actual site, it must be cut and moved to allow access. When permission is granted by all entities, Then permits will be needed for dredging, diving, and setting up a construction/removal site. That's if you decide to use the land side. If you choose to use the Harlem River, then you have to hire a barge and crew, crane and dredge crews, permits for all, USCG and NYPD water division must be notified, and consulted.

Now with all this, can we get somebody to go down there at low tide with a piece of pipe and poke around the water to see if there is something still there, before we start firing broadsides??? I will work one of my USCG contacts, because (I was told) as of 2004 USCG and NYPD Marine declared it destroyed, we have to find out what their actual definition is.

Take care,
TED

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Aug 2, 2016 - 6:52am
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

With the good intentions of the members of the PT Boat forum, with members from all over, deep criticism is not deserved. I supposed many members are like me, retired (or near retirement) living comfortably but not rich with funds enough to put into this project.

Does anyone have any idea of the probability that this is the 59? If I were to hazard a guess I would think 85% is a good number. Has anyone taken a small boat out there during a very low tide and leaned over the side and taken any dimensions? Perhaps a few numbers such as bulkhead/frame spacing as well as a few numbers across the front/mid section to create a gunwale curve (as the stern was trimmed quite a bit). That might be the confirmation needed.

Lastly, Michael has some good intentions. Perhaps he can get a piece of the keel, even if it is only a few feet long. Then it could be said that every reasonable effort has been made to identify without a doubt that this is, without doubt the historic PT-59 Boat.

Beyond that, RIP PT-59.

Lew

Lew Zee

Posted By: Lew Zee | Posted on: Aug 2, 2016 - 9:30am
Total Posts: 141 | Joined: Dec 12, 2013 - 12:04pm

Nice to see some reasoned responses to a rather bombastic tirade. Good work, gentlemen!

Will

Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Aug 2, 2016 - 10:51am
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm

He slammed me on my little PT Boat page on FB not long ago I had no idea of who he is. No insult ever thrown but I guess I did. He is quick with being offended and his critique. I to have done my time trying to preserve and research and put up $$$ to boot.

I am sure he does not know of my invite some 12 years ago too go look at the 59 whilst trying to get the 761 straightened out but I am not offended..........much like I did not know he wrote a book about PT Boats. Does he know I have a couple records out with my band? No?? Da Noive!

At the end of the day if there is anything left of her lying there potentially under the silt then go for it!!! Mr Buck and Ted have done a great job dedicating time to this topic of a great important piece of our history.
Too many here to show respect for don't let one sour apple get in the way.

Jimbo

Posted By: Jimbo Melanson | Posted on: Aug 2, 2016 - 11:26am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

Hmm ,well when I started this post I was only interested in the 59 boat because the asking price for the 48 boat was $500,00.00, and I was thinking that the 59 boat whatever was left of her might be a better option as both would have to start from scratch as far as restoration is concerned.

However the one big thing no matter which boat/s are concerned is cost and has been pointed out we still don't have any sort of fighting fund to follow through with ANY restoration or any thing to do with our concerns re the boats SO,

How about a little idea like this if they are willing, maybe Frank and Ted and anyone close to them Will, Jeff, who ever, get together form a non profit org, start a bank account in the org name and those that are really interested start to put say $10.00 a fortnight into it, I know this does not sound like much but I spend more than that on plumbing fittings when I go to my local hardware store and as for when the wife wants to go shopping well I think we all know what happens then.

JUST THINHK WHAT WE WOULD HAVE IF WE HAD STARTED THIS AT THE BEGINNING OF THIS POST!!!

Nothing will happen without funds we can talk for years but that's all that will happen come on guys what do you say want to really make something happen remember "A journey of a thousand miles starts with the first step" lets take that first step then WE as a group can see what we are interested in take off.

D.buck

Posted By: David Buck | Posted on: Aug 2, 2016 - 5:04pm
Total Posts: 332 | Joined: May 4, 2008 - 2:59am

I'm aware this conversation has gone on quite a while, but has anyone as of recently made their way to the Harlem bridge area? If so anything noteworthy to discuss?
ThePTboater

Posted By: ThePTboater | Posted on: Dec 28, 2016 - 1:58am
Total Posts: 136 | Joined: Jan 17, 2016 - 1:28pm

all seems quiet

Jimbo

Posted By: Jimbo Melanson | Posted on: Dec 28, 2016 - 8:57am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

Let's see Aug, Sept, Oct, Nov, Dec, and a couple of weeks in January so that would be 11 fortnights at $10.00 a fortnight makes $110.00 dollars and if we had 20 people putting in that would be $2,200.00 if we had 50 people putting in that would be $$5,500.00. Not a bad start but sadly !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now during the time of all this "talking" I have started a new business and one of the things that I was offered as an aid was the ability to access a range of grants that are only offered to business owners, these grants range from $20,000.00 to $2,000,000.00 so one thing is clear to access large amounts of money there needs to be some form of business plan in place for those that assist businesses to be able to act.

Collecting moneys with a clear intent to start a nonprofit business would not be a bad start!

The longer we sit on our collective hands that only means that restoration of ANY Boat will slip us by.

Is it that hard to get the guys on this board to act together, think of what we could do, one day we could be walking the deck of a boat that we as a Forum have helped put back in the water no matter what boat that maybe!!!

Think about it and then ACT!

D.buck

Posted By: David Buck | Posted on: Jan 11, 2017 - 3:52am
Total Posts: 332 | Joined: May 4, 2008 - 2:59am

Well said David!
I agree something should be done, the more we don't have a plan, the more those boats out there will gain more and more damage from the environment.
I personally(like others on the forum) would like to see 486 restored.
The Problem us PT guys must figure out is price.
That's a big price tag for a boat that's not complete.
ThePTboater

Posted By: ThePTboater | Posted on: Jan 11, 2017 - 12:03pm
Total Posts: 136 | Joined: Jan 17, 2016 - 1:28pm

Nick;
Purchase, material cost, and man hours puts the average restoration at 1-2 Million dollars. When I priced a projected restoration of PT 48 in 1993, I was at $300,000, that was for materials and working engines. This did not include Howard Barrett's fluctuating sales price ($20,000, $150,000 or $300,000, he was at the latter 99.9% of the time, when he mentioned $20,000, I was on deployment in the Persian Gulf, he knew this, that's why he said it.). Now I feel 1-2 million is accurate, and that is with material donations and volunteer labor as PT 305 did.
When I hit the Powerball, if large enough, I will buy ALL of them.
Take care,
TED

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Jan 11, 2017 - 2:41pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

After 7 years of restoration (in 2013) the CEO of the World War II Museum, in New Orleans, estimated the 305 would cost over $1,000,000 in cash and volunteer labor and donated materials, parts and equipment at a value of $5,000,000. As I understand the actual numbers after the ten year restoration project, these numbers are higher. The proud 305 took a small army of volunteers dedicating their time and tools for ten years - a big commitment. As an added bonus, the 305 had in its favor the backing of a $200,000,000 operation, The World War II Museum, New Orleans.

In or after April of 2017 the museum will be offering a tour of the boat for $15 and boat rides for $350, No children under 12 years old will be allowed on the boat.

As a second thought, merely ask Jerry about the high cost of restoration (the 658), which still continues today and will continue for its life. Just the continued overhead costs everyday, as well as all of the volunteer labor and specially the volunteer management of the project, results in a full time venture just to find cash donations to keep the Heritage running and funds for modifications as they arrive.

PT Boats Inc. (HQ) spent over a $1,000,000 in the mid 1980's to restore their first Elco, in todays (2016) dollars that would be at least $2,246,201, The same occurred with their second boat in the early 1990's. Fortunately they had an organization of over 10,000 dedicated vets and members that funded the restoration as as well as thousands of volunteer labor hours and donated materials and equipment. Even today, from time to time they have to create fund drives just to manage boat issues alone.

If you want something done you first have to be honest and realistict about the costs, then find a dedicated Board of Directors, management staff, attorneys, cost accountant and a CPA just to create and run the Non-Profit organization alone.

The way you get others to [b]"Get off their hands"[/b] is for you guys to first [b]"Get off your hands"[/b] and just maybe other members of this board will follow. I can probably manage to spare the $25.00 out my retirement funds, but at pushing 70 years old not much more.

I was in business for myself for over 45 years. In those years I have founded, purchase and/or partnered many businesses including my beloved graphic design firm (Graphic Dimensions), Printers Ink a 56 employee printing company, Pegasus Sporting Goods a sporting goods manufacturing company, Aomori Marketing USA a cross country ski company, Red-Eye 100 a targeting system, Soccer by the Sea, GDI an Army aviation ground support equipment design and manufacturing firm and way back in the 80's Home Computer Concepts. The point of all of this is simple, with all these businesses, money is an issue, management/supervision is an issue, overhead is an issue, legal is an issue, accounting and taxes an issue, employees are an issue, volunteer workers an issue, tools and equipment an issue, business/liability/umbrella insurances and issue, OSHA an issue ,Federal/State/County/City regulations and licenses an issue, environmental disposal is an issue, so on and so on. The thought of grants be given out is merely a "Pipe Dream", it takes a whole lot more than a business plan - it simply cost money to get money - nothing is free and/or easy.

This is just this old man's personal thought and experience,

I wish all the luck needed for Dave and ThePTBoater in their PT Boat restoration dreams. As you say the two of you will have to [b]"Get off your hands"[/b] and pony up some big bucks and a lot of time, the PT Boat fanatical membership on this board aren't going to do it for you.

Let me know when you have your 503(c) up and running and I will mail out my $25 immediately.

Take care,
Dick . . . . .

Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Jan 11, 2017 - 6:05pm
Total Posts: 1417 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm

Well said, Richard....

Will

Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Jan 12, 2017 - 11:44am
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm

Our intent was not for everyone to toss their wallets to us, our intent was to get the ideas going, and to come up with a collective plan.
ThePTboater

Posted By: ThePTboater | Posted on: Jan 12, 2017 - 12:15pm
Total Posts: 136 | Joined: Jan 17, 2016 - 1:28pm

Kudos to Dick for telling it like it is! If there is one thing that I have learned over the last 20 years being involved in the restoration and operation of a WW2 PT boat, it is that you absolutely must have a core group of PEOPLE who are willing to devote a large part of their life to the restoration and operation of the PT Boat. You need somebody who is willing to take action on a daily basis. This is made much more difficult if the members of the group are not even local to the area where the boat is located. That seems to be the hardest thing to do, to get enough local volunteers who can do the work needed to keep such an organization functional. If you get enough local volunteers, all other obstacles are able to be overcome. Sadly, the younger generations do not seem to be so willing to donate their time and efforts into something like this, so the difficulty in achieving these lofty goals is made even higher. I love the ideals but am still doubtful over the chances of success until and unless you obtain somebody who can step up and become the "Champion" of your cause. But I still wish you success!
Take care;
Jerry

Jerry Gilmartin
PT658 Crewman
Portland OR

Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Jan 12, 2017 - 4:31pm
Total Posts: 1472 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm

Well this is a bit more like it instead of talking about what could be done with a little bit of interest, we have two people that are putting forward what needs to be looked at to even get the ball rolling, being an Australian in Australia the ability to run a business somewhere in the United States without a major awareness of the steps needed to start would hinder someone like myself, not impossible though (Dicks list is a great help any further things that you think of Dick would be great) .

Maybe I should look into what it is needed to get started over there!

So we would need someone that is aware of the right way to kick this off and with a passion for PT Boats as well as a bit of a business head, as Dick and Gerry have pointed out.

Then we would need to find an area that would be likely to have a community that would be interested enough to assist in the restoration.

Maybe around Franks area as I am sure the local area know of his interest.

This of course as Dick has pointed out would only follow a fairly long startup/setup period. Anyone else willing to become involved ?

Thanks Dick and Gerry for some very wise words I do know what it takes to get anything going and the members of this board while passionate are a widely scattered lot, worldwide one could say and not be wrong but it does seem as though we do talk a lot while seeing the demise of our interest right before our eyes.

Thanks again,

Dave.

Posted By: David Buck | Posted on: Jan 13, 2017 - 12:42am
Total Posts: 332 | Joined: May 4, 2008 - 2:59am

Damm spelt Jerry with a G instead of J sorry Jerry.

Dave.

Posted By: David Buck | Posted on: Jan 13, 2017 - 12:46am
Total Posts: 332 | Joined: May 4, 2008 - 2:59am

Completely agree with you dick!
I just wanted to let you guys know that my"wallet" comment wasn't meant to be snarky, as i realized that it may come across that way.
i merely wanted to let you know that it wasn't our intent for others to do the work for us.
sorry for a late comment, i meant to answer back.
Have a good one!
ThePTboater

Posted By: ThePTboater | Posted on: Jan 31, 2017 - 4:10pm
Total Posts: 136 | Joined: Jan 17, 2016 - 1:28pm

Well if anyone seriously gets a restoration going on the 59 or 48 message me. I'd move back to the states to sand and paint. I don't have cash but I will make time...

Posted By: zeusbheld | Posted on: Feb 16, 2017 - 8:12am
Total Posts: 61 | Joined: Aug 12, 2014 - 9:54pm

Attention internet chatterers, interesting story here: [url]http://nypost.com/2017/05/27/jfks-wwii-boat-may-be-at-the-bottom-of-the-harlem-river/[/url]

Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: May 27, 2017 - 3:59pm
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am

Here is detail on the PT 59 evidence:

Photos are on my Facebook page:
https://www.facebook.com/williamdoylenyc

Video:
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcuQ6zS4P3s[/url]

News Article:
[url]http://nypost.com/2017/05/27/jfks-wwii-boat-may-be-at-the-bottom-of-the-harlem-river/[/url]

Press Release:
JFK's World War II Gunboat Discovered
- - In New York's Harlem River
John F. Kennedy's Final Secret Revealed
On Eve of 100th Birth Anniversary - - May 29, 2017
Probable Ruins of Lost Combat Vessel "PT 59" Identified
By PT 109 Author William Doyle,
With Investigative TV Journalist Fred Mamoun
- - Lab Results Announced

Posted By: William Doyle | Posted on: May 28, 2017 - 3:24am
Total Posts: 57 | Joined: Jan 5, 2015 - 10:20am

Here is detail on the PT 59 evidence:

Photos are on my Facebook page:
https://www.facebook.com/williamdoylenyc

Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcuQ6zS4P3s

News Article:
http://nypost.com/2017/05/27/jfks-wwii-boat-may-be-at-the-bottom-of-the-harlem-river/

Press Release:
JFKs World War II Gunboat Discovered
- - In New Yorks Harlem River
John F. Kennedys Final Secret Revealed
On Eve of 100th Birth Anniversary - - May 29, 2017
Probable Ruins of Lost Combat Vessel PT 59 Identified
By PT 109 Author William Doyle,
With Investigative TV Journalist Fred Mamoun
- - Lab Results Announced

Posted By: William Doyle | Posted on: May 28, 2017 - 3:24am
Total Posts: 57 | Joined: Jan 5, 2015 - 10:20am

I didn't see anything on your FB page Bill. But going by the nypost article, I think it would take more than finding some spruce (a not very rot resistant wood without regular preventative maintenance) to say with 99.99% surety that it's the 59 especially with conflicting stories about its hulk being removed at some point. Maybe if you took a metal detector and found some framing bracket that could be traced to 77' construction or something even easier to identify. Or get a piece of wood clearly a frame or deck beam (likely mahogany as per Dick's drawings I sent). Did you get your sample from the piece sticking up as seen in the video or elsewhere?

I hope you pursue this and get some concrete evidence!

Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: May 28, 2017 - 4:24pm
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am

let it rest in peace

Jimbo

Posted By: Jimbo Melanson | Posted on: May 29, 2017 - 8:57am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

let it rest in peace

Jimbo

Posted By: Jimbo Melanson | Posted on: May 29, 2017 - 4:09pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

Because of recent interest of PT 59, Iâm trying to update this old post that David Buck first posted in January of 2016.

Some of you have probably recently received an email link of a newspaper article from one or more individuals, regarding a boat presumed to be PT 59. This was an article concerning the removal of the remains of PT 59 by the New York Time on June 6, 2020.
Article Link

Prior to the publishing of the article, I had on June 1, 2020 received a request to download the Elco 77â blueprints copied from microfilm. Originally this microfilm was provided me by Al Ross, and I had scanned all the engineering frames to .pdf files. Later after sending him the download link, I receive another email from the same individual realizing that particular set of microfilm was horribly produced by the Navy and many of the pages of engineering are exceptionally hard to interpret. In this email he had described why he was interested in the drawings, as he was overseeing the removal of a boat haul submerged in 3 to 6 feet of mud for many decades. They believed it to be PT 59 and he was interested in finding proof (engineering) of the items being brought up from the site as actually being components of PT 59. It appears the New York MTA was requiring them to salvage and save any and all parts recovered - in the name of history, just in case it actually was Kennedyâs last boat.

Directly below are some excerts [b](blue)[/b] from his communications with myself and Ted Walther. I brought Ted in on the conversations because of his own research some time back and my thought he had relevant information to share with the company.

[blue]

1.) Good Afternoon:
Thank you for sharing this information. I am trying to acquire information related to the ELCO 77 PT Boats in particular The PT 59. I am a Marine Superintendent for Walsh Construction working on the installation of a Floodwall in New York City. Recently while conducting a routine inspection our divers encountered an obstruction that was suspected of being the PT 59. The vessel was reportedly abandoned and sank alongside the seawall at the 207th Street Rail maintenance facility in 1976.

We have been tasked with removing the remains of the boat from the bottom of the Harlem River. Further investigation by the divers revealed that the boat was in an advanced state of decay. Much of the material that has recovered to date has been literally been removed by hand as it is no longer fastened or joined to a structural member. There is also a lot of evidence that the hull had been modified and repaired over the years.

The MTA (Metropolitan Transportation Authority), has asked us to recover and retain any materials that may be used in a future display due to the PT 59âs association with President Kennedy.
Â
To Date: We have recovered :
3 Rudders that appear to be original.
2 Propeller Shafts that appear more bronze than Monel
1 Propeller ( Not Original)
Misc. Propeller Struts which appear to be original.

Deteriorated wood hull elements showing signs of Decay and Marine Borer damage.

I have a question concerning the shafts, Where the original shafts one piece?
The 2 recovered shafts each have a coupler joining the sections. The couplers themselves are not of the same design.

Thank You for your efforts in gathering and preserving this information.

2.) Good Morning:
Thank you for quick response. To answer your question concerning the wood pieces of the boat, we have been instructed by the MTA to hold the material on site and not to dispose of any of the debris.

We were not surprised when we found the boat as it is part of the local lore , although some folks were telling us that its finial resting place was elsewhere in the Harlem River.

The remaining hull was covered by 3 to 6 feet of mud, when we surveyed the boat using stakes to determine the length and width. We came up with overall length of 77â, which is probably accurate to within 2â +/-.

We are trying to move in a systematic method from stern to bow, as to not cause too much disruption to the local environment. Â We have encountered one deteriorated tank that we suspect was utilized for diesel fuel.
Thank you
- end of email conversations.
[/blue]

Below are two Coast Guard Document I have, they appear to be the only remaining document available, that is, according to the Coast Guard.

Document 1

Document 2

Iâve attached these photos supplied to me by NARA and Chip Marshall some 15 to 20 years ago.

Photo: Kennedy Library, the National Archives & Records Administration:
Photo 3

Photo Enlarged Areas: Photos 4 thru 6

Photos from Chip Marshall: Photos 7 thur 13

Photos from Chip Marshall: Photos 14 thru 18

Photos from Ted Walther: Photos 19 thru 20

When I hear further reports I will pass them on.
Dick . . .

Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Jun 15, 2020 - 4:49pm
Total Posts: 1417 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm

Is it possible the Mariners' Museum in Virginia would have any interest in the 59 remains (some/all)? They have a large collection and resources for preservation like they are doing with the U.S.S. Monitor.

Lew

Lew Zee

Posted By: Lew Zee | Posted on: Jun 15, 2020 - 7:25pm
Total Posts: 141 | Joined: Dec 12, 2013 - 12:04pm

Now THAT'S a gunboat! Barges didn't stand a chance. Thanks Dick.

Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Jun 16, 2020 - 4:39am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am

Here is an informative video link from ABC 7 NY.
[url]https://abc7ny.com/wwii-world-war-two-ii-pt-59/6248927/[/url]

Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Jun 16, 2020 - 9:39am
Total Posts: 1417 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm

Lew;
I went to The Mariners Museum last year (its only 30 miles from my house)and spoke with one of the Chief curators, I was in search of their collection of memorabilia from Glenville S. Tremaine, Chief designer and later Works Manager at ELCO. I asked if they would be interested in getting a PT, he said while they would be, they are pretty strapped for $$, and they have a had enough job maintaining what they have, so it would go on the back burner, which is not a good idea, for wooden boats. All surviving PT Boats need to be restored NOW, especially PT 48 and the 3 surviving 80' ELCO's (PT 486, PT 615 and PT 766), before they are lost to time.
Take care,
TED

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Jun 16, 2020 - 9:48am
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

this message is for C.J Willis, My name is scott campbell, my Father was Arthur Campbell MoMM1c. with Ron 20 boat 248. It would be great if I could talk with you. from what I have read on the forum you have been many of the same places that he was. if I could call you let me know or you can call me at 724-658-4250. I live in the eastern time zone. thanks for considering my request. scott .

Scott Campbell 2nd gen,PT 248
Ron 20

Posted By: Scott C | Posted on: Jun 16, 2020 - 1:04pm
Total Posts: 106 | Joined: Nov 20, 2019 - 4:34pm

To Scott C: CJ Willis is alive and well, now 95 years young and hunkered down in his assisted living bunker due to COVID where I, his son, can only communicate with him by texting or yelling up at him on his 2nd floor balcony. He no longer can use his computer to be active on this site and sadly due to his deafness (maybe due to to the twin 50's he fired) a phone conversation would not be possible. I do know a lot about his PT experience and will relate that the unfortunate killing of the 109 crew member Albert by the Japanese prisoner in October 1943 was fresh on everyone's mind when he joined the 242 around the 1st of November at its base in Vella La Vella. His crew was told by their officers that they were not picking up any enemy from the water and two months later when the 242 and 243 sank two Japanese barges off the coast of Bougainville they did not search for survivors. For the first two weeks or so after he joined the 242 it berthed at night at Vella La Vella next to the 59 boat still skippered by John Kennedy. One of the crew of the 59 who had been on the 109 was going home on leave and gave him his .45 cal pistol which CJ carried throughout his PT deployment.
He and I had the wonderful experience of going out to Portland a few years ago to ride on the 658 down to the Oswego Boat Show and kudos to Jerry Gillmartin for all he did for us. To see him and the other PT veterans on that boat was memorable. I also accompanied him to Washington D.C. on an Honor Flight and while that was a great experience it did not compare to seeing him in the port side gun turret of the 658 with the rumble of those three Packard engines down below.

Randy Willis

Posted By: Randy Willis | Posted on: Jul 7, 2020 - 9:11pm
Total Posts: 9 | Joined: Jul 16, 2007 - 12:53pm

Thank you very much for the update Randy. I am happy to hear that he is being well taken care of during this crisis. I really miss his posting here...

Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Jul 8, 2020 - 8:18am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am

Thank you Randy. I took a ride on PT305 in New Orleans last fall, had a great time, gave me just a taste of the power and speed of those great boats. Good to hear your father is doing well. My father passed at 94 in 2016. must have been something in the air in the S. Pacific to help their longevity. If you are interested I have written up the stories I could remember dad told of his PT days. if you e-mail me i'll send them to you. you can get my email from my profile. unfortunately I don't know the details of where they took place. tanks again Scott

Scott Campbell 2nd gen,PT 248
Ron 20

Posted By: Scott C | Posted on: Jul 8, 2020 - 12:35pm
Total Posts: 106 | Joined: Nov 20, 2019 - 4:34pm

Thank you, gentlemen. Priceless history.

Will

Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Jul 9, 2020 - 10:04am
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm

The following is from an email chain Jeff D and Ted kindly brought me into. It was a discussion of the salvage of the possible PT 59 from the Harlem River (discussed in previous posts) early July 2020. This is a long post that includes 38 annotated images.

[b]HARLEM RIVER SALVAGE OF POSSIBLE ELCO 77â PT BOAT[/b]

The following photographs used are from, and the property of,
[b]William Doyle[/b] , the annotations are mine.

Iâam comparing many of Billâs photos of the actual salvage to elco 77â engineering drawing in an attempt to identify the boat as a World War II Elco 77â PT boat. The photos are annotated with my personal comments and/or conclusions. They indicate what I saw when I compared the photos to actual blueprints from Elco.

In the analysis, I conclude that some of the wooden remains brought up from the basin are clearly that of an Elco 77â PT boat hull. However I cannot discern what PT boat number was assigned or what series of 77â boats (Series PT20-44 & PT45-68). All the components salvaged are common to both series of Elco 77â boats. There is however, an item that appears to be the forward hatch. If so, it is a crew quarterâs hatch from a second series Elco 77â boat as was PT59. Only locating a hull number would it be possible to actually identify the PT boat number.

Stories and tales conclude it was PT 59, but no paper trail evidently exist as to document the actual boat history. There is no proof of sale or ownership change or proof of boat identity other than a Customs Service Number Card. Unfortunately this card contains information not even typical of any Elco 77â boat. This makes the matter of identification confusing. The Coast Guard has a Citations Card stating the boat burned, was lost and surrender to the City of New York at pier 73 on the East River. This is about a dozen miles south of the current excavation site in the basin on the Harlem River. Pier 73 no longer exists, it was evidently reclaimed for city expansion in the mid sixties.

Since this email was sent out, Bill Doyle has kindly clarified some issue as stated above as to the boats movement and ownership, through his earlier 2017 research.

[blue]âDick,
This is incredible research and detail! Thank you so much for doing this. I will forward this great info. to Battleship Cove.

In the roughest terms, from memory, as I recall the chain of custody when I researched it in 2017:

The boat burned early in the morning of 2/8/66 while docked at old Pier 73 at East 23rd street. (Fun fact, I grew up across the street and my dad parked the family car a few yards from pier.) I spoke to Marinak's widow and she said she got the police/fire call, as Gus was out of town. Much of the boat survived. She said Gus told her he suspected that some kids had an unauthorized nocturnal party on the boat and accidentally set it on fire, or someone torched it for fun.

The remains sat there until 1/20/67 when Gus arranged for it to be surrendered for salvage and it was taken away from Pier 73.
A boat dealer named Jim Yurwitz towed the remains to his place in the Bronx.Â I believe Yurwitz is alive and on Facebook.

Yurwitz sold the boat to Redmond Burke, the final owner, in a cash deal of a few hundred dollars with no paperwork. Burke (still alive) told me he towed the boat down to its final location, which is where he abandoned it around 1974 to slowly sink straight down into the mud.

At some point someone (Coast Guard? Army Corps of Engineers?) supposedly cleared away the upper remaining pieces as a hazard to navigation, but they didn't bother with the bottom-most pieces, which were visible only at lowest tide until the MTA recovery.

In 2017 when I surveyed and sampled the debris in a small boat, it was a brackish, God-awful, inaccessible place, and the mud was like quicksand, nearly sucked me under.Â
The mystery continues!
Great detective story.
More to come, I'm sure.
Best,
Bill
William Doyleâ[/blue]

The Following photos and artwork are annotated with my analysis as I compared photos to engineering drawings. You can also download the .PDF file by clicking the link below or continuing viewing this post by scrolling down:
Link

All photographs are the property of William Doyle, please respect that. All comments made on the photos and artwork are my personal comments as to what I saw during my elevation.

Photos: 1 thru 38 . . .

THE END . . . . . .

Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Aug 13, 2020 - 3:39pm
Total Posts: 1417 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm

WOW!

Will

Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Aug 14, 2020 - 9:11am
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm

Wow seconded Dick, excellent and very thorough work. And a LOT of work. You've managed to establish that it was indeed a PT boat buried there. With the deck hatch as proof, a later 77 foot Elco. I can't think of anyone else that could have done that with such certainty. [:-cheers-:]

Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Aug 15, 2020 - 8:18am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am

PT 59 . . .

A while back while discussing PT 59 with Roy Forbes, a senior member here at the forum, he said he recalled a possible photo of the 59, that his father had taken in the 1960âs. Recently Roy Forbes replied with the following:

Dick, good news I finally found that photo of possibly PT 59 we were talking about earlier on. It was taken around 1968 give or take a year. While working for in New York with the New York Central RR, my dad (Roy) had heard conversations one day, and said that he had heard it was Kennedyâs old boat. He took me over there and with his old 110 Instamatic he took a photo, but as you can see it is a well faded photos. Iâm going to mail you the original and you may do with it what to please.

Cropped Photo:

Original:

Dick . . . .

Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Feb 3, 2021 - 1:34pm
Total Posts: 1417 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm

Thanks Dick and Thanks Roy!
There is no mistaking that bow! PT 59 for sure.
Itâs the same shape that raised the hair on the back of my neck when I first saw PT 48, back in 1991.
Take care,
TED

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Feb 3, 2021 - 6:18pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

Thanks guys. Glad you were able to use the photo Dick. I just sat here and had to reread the entire post over again. So much research, work and thought going into this subject and simply so interesting.

Posted By: Roy Forbes | Posted on: Feb 4, 2021 - 12:25pm
Total Posts: 371 | Joined: Sep 5, 2012 - 4:57pm

Its a shame after all this hard work, time, and effort by you guys, all that was left of the PT59 is in too poor of a shape and not nearly enough to restore into a floating working boat. It seems like only a few pieces that are barely recognizable as belonging to a PT Boat, were able to be recovered from their mud encrusted grave. I would have liked to have seen it restored to a floating boat someday, but I think that ship has sailed. Does anyone know what the plans are for these surviving parts which were recovered? I hear they are on display in the Parking Lot at Battleship Cove? If that is true, can we get somebody to go there and photograph them?
Thanks and be well!
Jerry

Jerry Gilmartin
PT658 Crewman
Portland OR

Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Feb 8, 2021 - 1:03pm
Total Posts: 1472 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm

Just following with much interest. As a retired test equipment designer I can appreciate all of the hard work including all those detailed drawings. Thanks for keeping us all posted.
Two questions, as it seems that seven foot was cut off of the stern were the original rudders had been retained? Also, was the ex-59 engine configuration changed to two engines?
Lew

Lew Zee

Posted By: Lew Zee | Posted on: Feb 8, 2021 - 3:26pm
Total Posts: 141 | Joined: Dec 12, 2013 - 12:04pm

It was common to cut the boats down to meet 65' for USCG passenger boat crewing requirements. When the boats would be cut down, struts and rudders might be saved, but often times replaced because of the change in shaft angle due to the shorter shafts.

It was also common to pull the Packards and install small diesels. In doing so, the vee drives would be done away with and the engines would be moved forward side by side like most other boats of the day.

The ex-PT-486 (Sightseer), while still to this day is a full 80' Elco, she had multiple engine configurations over the years of her passenger vessel service. At one point she had a combination of Superior diesels with GM diesels and the last configuration (to this day) is twin 12V71 diesels. She retains her original struts, shaft logs, shaft seals, rudder posts, steering gear, but the props have been changed numerous times as well as the rudders.

The interesting item for the engine mounts is that the original Packard engine mount rails are still in place on the 486 even though the engines are now located where the center fuel tank would have been.

Former crew member of the Big Blue Sightseer ex-PT 486

Posted By: Gerry McGovern | Posted on: Feb 11, 2021 - 7:46am
Total Posts: 78 | Joined: Oct 7, 2016 - 1:47pm

Here is an Update of the PT 59 Salvage . . .

Today at the PT Boat Museum in Newberry Hall, at Battleship Cove, an exhibit of PT 59 salvaged parts went on display. The part are presented in a custom recovery tank designed for the display and to preserve the wooden members. Each item of the display is tagged and identified as to what and where they would be found on an Elco 77' Series PT 45 - 68. There are other parts such as struts, props, prop shaft and stern tubes (not torpedo tubes) but prop shaft supports exiting the hull. These parts are being preserved separately, at least for now.

During a small live ceremony and online (Zoom) event, several dignitaries local and national were in attendance. Several of these made comments regarding the exhibit. Remarks were also given by guest speaker, [b]William Doyle[/b], forum member and author of "PT 109: An American Epic of War, Survival, and the Destiny of John F. Kennedy" and a very active and avid advocate for the salvage of the 59. Bill was very gracious and gave praise to the [b]members of forum[/b] for bring up the discussion and education as to condition and blithe of the 59. Thanks Bill.

Below is an imbedded video from Youtube:

[b]Please be warned, there are some speakers that might make comments that are not necessarily accurate - please forgive and lets not get gnarly or even snarly![/b]

Below is a photo of the display sent to me by Chris Nardi, the COO of the USS Massachusetts Memorial Committee, who was heading up the exhibit project.

Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Apr 16, 2021 - 4:07pm
Total Posts: 1417 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm

MISSION ACCOMPLISHED! BRAVO ZULU!!! to all that were involved in this Herculean effort to recover the remaining bits and pieces of this historic boat.
Take care,
TED

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Apr 16, 2021 - 5:08pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

Duplicate msg.

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Apr 16, 2021 - 5:08pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

What Ted said.

David Waples

Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Apr 16, 2021 - 9:04pm
Total Posts: 1679 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm

I came across a channel 7 (Boston) news video dated June 19, 2020. A little old, but It might be of interest to some. Link: [url]https://whdh.com/news/wwii-boat-commanded-by-jfk-making-its-way-to-fall-river/[/url].
Lew

Lew Zee

Posted By: Lew Zee | Posted on: Apr 16, 2021 - 9:36pm
Total Posts: 141 | Joined: Dec 12, 2013 - 12:04pm

Thanks to all on the Forum for making this possible! Without you it obviously wouldn't have happened and I tried to make that clear in the short time I had to talk. It was a really amazing detective story by real experts and historians on the Forum. When I reconned the site in 2017 and leaned down out of the johnny boat and cut off tiny pieces for wood testing, I put an oar down and probed around. I felt sand/mud. I felt the occasional rock. And I felt what was clearly wood. As the tide rose I traced the wood around and it corresponded roughly to the size of large remnants of the hull area. Bingo! It was amazing to see the huge MTA's recovery-clearance operation last year. Fun facts -- the site is a few hundred yards from, and plainly visible from, the main north/south commuter train lines from Manhattan on the other side of the river -- the Hudson line, Harlem line and New Haven line tracks. Also the Major Deegan expressway. It was buried in plain sight. Also, in the 1960s living in Stuyvesant Town, my dad parked the family station wagon in a lot under the FDR drive a few dozen yards from the SEA QUEEN V berth at 23rd street pier. We should have chartered it! Thank you all again.

William Doyle

Posted By: William Doyle | Posted on: Apr 16, 2021 - 10:09pm
Total Posts: 57 | Joined: Jan 5, 2015 - 10:20am

Great job Bill and to my fellow members that helped here on the message board. So nice to see what can be accomplished when folks work together to try and preserve History.

Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Apr 17, 2021 - 5:58am
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am

Great to see the remains salvaged with plans to create a display that many will see! It will surely help keep the memory of PT boats alive. My thanks to all of you here that had a hand in pinpointing her location, and Dick Washichek for the further detective work of ID'ing the parts and creating those wonderful graphics, and William Doyle for getting the movers and shakers moving and shaking to bring this project together. [:-cheers-:]

Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Apr 17, 2021 - 7:08am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am

Below is a copy of the location artwork, keyed to the number posts in the display tank. This is the artwork only, that appears on the panel on the right side of the display tank, see photo in above post. There are two other pieces of artwork, but we have all seen them here from time to time. The second panel on the left side includes a photo (upper left, behind Kennedy) Roy Forbesâ father took back in the 1968-69 time frame. it was a color photo seen earlier in this post and repeated below.

The numbers and nomenclature on the drawing may have changed since this artwork was sent. The final numbering was completed by the panel graphic designer.

Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Apr 17, 2021 - 12:30pm
Total Posts: 1417 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm

Magnificent effort by all involved. BRAVO ZULU...

Will

Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Apr 17, 2021 - 1:54pm
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm

It's just amazing to see the above photo of the 59 here on the forum and as a part of the display in Fall River. It seems like just a few weeks ago my dad and I took the trip over the GB Bridge to see the urban legend that was rhumered to once be a PT Boat that President Kennedy commanded. That photo, would show up every now and then over the last 50 years as I would go through the many old photo albums stacked in my closet along with the many early train albums from back in the day. Dick, thank you for putting it to good use and your hard work with William on this amazing project.. And William, thank you for the tremendious job you did both with the research and the recovery of this fantastic piece of history. What a great addition to the Fall River PT Boat Museum.

Posted By: Roy Forbes | Posted on: Apr 17, 2021 - 9:10pm
Total Posts: 371 | Joined: Sep 5, 2012 - 4:57pm

Just a quick update: I finally got back to the PT 59 Exhibit info and found a much better video of the ceremony at the PT Boat Museum, at Battleship Cove, RI. The video was found on Youtube and from there I created and posted an embedded copy of the video on the previous page (page 16} of this entire post.

I hope you take a look . . .

[green]As I stated earlier please be warned, there are some speakers that might make comments that are not necessarily accurate - please forgive and lets not get gnarly or even snarly![/green]

Posted By: Dick | Posted on: May 28, 2021 - 1:05pm
Total Posts: 1417 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm

Greetings all from Florida and thank you Dick for posting the latest link to the video! It was great and well past due credit for the crew of the '59.

I have been following this topic almost from the beginning, over five years now (Jan. 15, 2016). (If you are new to the forum and have not checked out this topic I encourage you to do so.)

In the beginning, there was the discovery of this possibly being the PT-59. As more people chimed in that evidence got stronger. When that evidence got overwhelming, there was concern about where the remnants would be placed, even worse was that there would be no place for it.

After these five plus years we now see a permanent memorial that embraces the heroism and true story of the crew of the PT-59. This was a story that was abandoned almost as much as the remains of the'59's hull.

I'm glad that the forum was there at the beginning of this process. How sad it would have been to see the last of the PT-59 removed to rot away.

Kudos to those that did the work to find the final resting place and make the move for the remains, and display it for the history the '59 deserves.

Lew Zee

Posted By: Lew Zee | Posted on: May 28, 2021 - 11:18pm
Total Posts: 141 | Joined: Dec 12, 2013 - 12:04pm

AMEN, LEW...

Will

Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: May 29, 2021 - 1:08pm
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm

Lew;
PT 59 was a victim of mistaken identity, fate, and time. I would have rather had a VERY different outcome, when Boats was tipped off 47+ years ago. All because of a typo!!!
It is what it is.
Take care,
TED

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: May 31, 2021 - 8:41pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

Lew;
PT 59 was a victim of mistaken identity, fate, and time. I would have rather had a VERY different outcome, when Boats was tipped off 47+ years ago. All because of a typo!!!
It is what it is.
Take care,
TED

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Jun 1, 2021 - 7:58am
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am