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» Forum Name: PT Boats - General
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» Topic: PT 38 1944 1945
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All;
After watching They Were Expendable for the umptheenth time tonight,
I am convinced they used PT 38 for the Beach Burn/destruction of 34, the refloat of 34 and the haul away of PT 41.
PT 38 is the only one we have no idea what happened and it makes sense , she was used "up" for the movie. until we can find anything new, I think we should say PT 38 was destroyed during this movie.
Take care,
TED



Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Dec 27, 2015 - 8:34pm
Total Posts: 3058 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am



Negative on PT-38 being destroyed in They Were Expendable. I got the book on the filming. They were mock-ups. The 41 boat on the trailer was a port side and stern facade only. It was hollow framework on the other side. Same on the 34 boat burning. Mock-ups, not real boats. (Do you realize the red tape involved in destroying an actual naval vessel to film a private enterprise movie?!!) Hollywood was pretty good at special effects even back then!

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0786495006?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00

BTW, if you love the movie, get the book!

Mike

Posted By: Michael Vorrasi | Posted on: Dec 28, 2015 - 10:33am
Total Posts: 72 | Joined: Jul 1, 2013 - 11:46am



I found some of the captioning in "Behind the Scenes" to be a little suspect.

Will

Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Dec 28, 2015 - 3:58pm
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm



Mike;
After being in the Navy for 30 years I know about the red tape, but this was a different time, the Navy already knew they were going to get rid of the 77' boats, either by auction or destruction. They were not PT's anymore, they had been redesignated small boats.
The Navy ended up burning ex-PT 39 in 1946-1947, at Solomons Island, Maryland because they could not sell it.
ex-PT 38 is the only one we have no record of so far. Heck, until the photo at Melville surfaced a few years ago, we never even knew she was shipped back from Tulagi. There was no documents stating this. Chip Marshall has researched all the 77' ELCO's, there is even a final structural inspection documents for All remaining 77'ELCO's in RON 3(2) at Tulagi dated in spring 1944, that states all 77' boats material condition, and each boat is listed with all structural deficiencies, with recommended dispositions. However, in actuality, if they did decide to use up Ex-PT 38 for the movie, it would only have taken 4-5 typed pages and a few signatures. Just like those planes the AAF signed over for movies.
Another thing to consider is the Navy went all out for this movie to be made, even having RON 41 send all 12 boats with U.S.S. Brontes(APG 17) to the Washington Navy Yard just for the premier of the movie.
I admit I have not seen this book, but, unless, that book has actual photos of them building the "shell", I am somewhat sceptical.
Take care,
TED



Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Dec 29, 2015 - 10:02am
Total Posts: 3058 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am



I just finished reading the making of TWE and agree with Ted's theory on the 38 boat being used in the movie.

While Mike V is correct that a mock up was used for the final scene of the 41 on a trailer on it's way to Lake Lanau, I found a picture in the book showing what I believe to be a 77' Elco, moored in board of an 80' Elco on location.

The spray rail on the boat in question is neither from an 80' Elco, nor from one of the Huckins used in the back ground scenes.

The scenes where the 34 is pulled from the reef, being re-launched, and finally strafed and burned are ALL of a 77' Elco hull with a modified deck arrangement to resemble the two 80' footers being used in most of the action scenes.

If MGM were going to build a floating real life mock up of the 34, why a different boat than the 41 mock up?

Larry
62 Bel-Air
260 Eagle EXP
79 Cole TR-2

Posted By: bubbletop409 | Posted on: Dec 29, 2015 - 8:38pm
Total Posts: 164 | Joined: Apr 22, 2013 - 11:48pm



Hi Ted and Larry,

I went crazy looking for my copy of the book last night, then I realized I brought it to my vacation house. I'll have my paws on it this weekend. The text discussed the 41 on the trailer being a mockup of just port side and stern. In fact, if I am remembering correctly, one of the actors or film crew was injured tripping off of it due to the open frame work, so it was clearly discussed.

Now, the beached 34 boat is a different kettle of fish indeed. I agree it is a 77 footer, mocked up to look like an 80, perhaps for film visual continuity. Initial explosions and fire are pyrotechnics, but I don't believe the actual boat, possibly the 38, under that disguise was destroyed. After a big cloud of explosion and smoke we next see a submerged deck wreckage with a 77 footer's deck house (maybe a spare) and some torpedo tube mockups sitting on top in the flames. I think they filmed a studio wrecked deck mockup with the deck house on it for that scene.

Otherwise, they would have filmed the actual boat going under. I would have if I was the director. Don't forget, TWE won an Oscar for special effects, so those guys were pretty savvy about filming wizardry. The fact that we can now freeze frame each scene was not something the audience could do in 1945!

Mike

Posted By: Michael Vorrasi | Posted on: Dec 30, 2015 - 9:09am
Total Posts: 72 | Joined: Jul 1, 2013 - 11:46am




For reference . . . .

Please review a lengthy post on the same basic topic we had back 4 years ago (December of 2011). Include were lots of movie screen captures:

[url]http://www.ptboatforum.com/cgi-bin/MB2/netboardr.cgi?fid=102&cid=101&tid=2413&st=10&nd=20&pg=1&sc=20[/url]





Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Dec 30, 2015 - 12:03pm
Total Posts: 1417 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm



Mike

I agree that we could be deceived into believing the boat on the beach was indeed destroyed with special effects, while it did survive?

How ever the other two scenes I mentioned were indeed a full size 77' Elco, being pulled from the reef, and being launched after repairs from reefing. They had even fractured some of the planking on the port stern of the hull in the reef shot to portray the damage.

When you retrieve your copy of the book, the picture I mentioned is about half way through. I have the kindle version, so I am not sure of the exact page. The outboard hull is definitely an 80 footer, the inboard hull's spray rail is much closer to the waters surface than either an 80' Elco or those homely Huckins.

So here's my conclusion, there was at least one real 77 footer involved in the film dressed to resemble an 80 footer. Since so much rebuilding of the hull was done to imitate an 80 footer it was probably an empty shell of a hull, and of no further use to the US Navy. I think the final scene does in fact show the end of the 38 boat.

Larry
62 Bel-Air
260 Eagle EXP
79 Cole TR-2

Posted By: bubbletop409 | Posted on: Dec 30, 2015 - 12:28pm
Total Posts: 164 | Joined: Apr 22, 2013 - 11:48pm



Dick;
Understand all. But, I got to keep shaking the trees about this until something concrete about PT 38 turns up.
Take care.
TED



Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Dec 30, 2015 - 8:56pm
Total Posts: 3058 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am



Here's the pictures from the "Behind the scenes" book on the PT Boat mock-up:

ptmockup.jpg

ptmockup2.jpg


Charlie

Posted By: 29navy | Posted on: Dec 31, 2015 - 7:09am
Total Posts: 598 | Joined: Dec 28, 2006 - 3:02pm



Charlie;
Thanks for the photos, good thing Nick Scutti wasn't caught, being on the wrong side of John Ford was not a good thing.
That being said, we now need to focus on finding info on the refloat scene and the beach scene.
Take care,
TED



Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Dec 31, 2015 - 8:12am
Total Posts: 3058 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am



Ted, in looking at the bogus depression railing around the 50 cal turrets on the trailer mockup, and then comparing these to the same on the beached burning 34 boat, I'm wondering if a floating mockup was not also used there. They would only need to take that framework build the other side and put it on a barge or underwater dolly, maybe a flying boat beaching dolly or similar. Also, looking at the 34 boat in the towed off the reef scenes, look at the deck across the transom. No deck overhang as it should be. To my eyes, that whole boat looks too short to be a 77 footer. Something is amiss there.

Mike

Posted By: Michael Vorrasi | Posted on: Dec 31, 2015 - 8:35am
Total Posts: 72 | Joined: Jul 1, 2013 - 11:46am



OK, I give up. It appears Dick and I were posting at the same time. I went back and looked at the previous discussion on this matter that he referenced. First time I saw most of those photos.

The one picture shown of the 34 boat after the strafing/explosion with Mr. Brickley holding the mast, does appear to show a 77' style cabin in the wreckage.

Larry
62 Bel-Air
260 Eagle EXP
79 Cole TR-2

Posted By: bubbletop409 | Posted on: Dec 31, 2015 - 2:10pm
Total Posts: 164 | Joined: Apr 22, 2013 - 11:48pm



Hi, Re the mockup Burning boat scene on the beach if one looks to the 77' boats construction as far as the deck goes this was made of plywood whereas the 80' boats were double planked ref. Al Ross Allied Coastal Forces of World War 11. Also if we blow the photo up it can be seen that there is only one layer of planking not two on the mockup, and if we look under the decking we can see two things that do not fit,
One being what looks to be a 50 gallon drum holding the deck section up.
Two looking aft of the drum under the deck it can be seen that there is no hull supporting the deck, only clear water
As a side note if we look at the PT King web site we can see what happens to a 77' boat when there is high explosive damage to it this takes the form that the deck of the boat is mostly missing while the hull has sustained very little damage and is what has survived where as in the beach scene the opposite is portrayed.

Anyway that my 2 cents worth.

Yours,

D.buck

Posted By: David Buck | Posted on: Jan 1, 2016 - 2:17am
Total Posts: 332 | Joined: May 4, 2008 - 2:59am



Hi,
Triva for those interested,
In the scene where Wayne is talking to his Exc. who has just emerged from under the Boat, note that the boat does not seem to have any rudders or props.
As the boat is towed of the reef Wayne and his Exc. haul a prop out of the water, aside from the fact that this would have been done earlier when the props would have been removed note that the Exc. hauls up a smaller prop than Wayne and both appear undamaged
Re. the Boat on the Marine railway it appears that we only see the port side however at one point during the scenes of talking to the Submarine Captain we get a short shot over Dads shoulder with the starboard side of the boat in the background.
At the marine railway we get the impression that they have only just started work on the Boat yet during the back and forward shots when Dad yells at the worker to leave the water barrel alone there does not appear to be any damage to the port rear hull.
Also at this time the boat now has its rudders and props back or was this scene shot first and then the scene on the reef later.

Just one or two little things that can be picked up if you watch this movie enough.(all in fun to)

Yours,

D.buck

Posted By: David Buck | Posted on: Jan 1, 2016 - 3:19am
Total Posts: 332 | Joined: May 4, 2008 - 2:59am



Hi Guys. I think I have figured out the mystery. There was a prop boat, made up to look like an Elco 80. It was free floating and might have been a converted yacht or a purpose built mock up. . (If you see all the stuff in the book that you think were real in the movie, it will bring a grin to the face of any TWE fan. ) Hopefully Larry can help out here again and scan the photo on page 66. (The change from Windows 98 has K.O'd my scanner. No new drivers for it. Gotta love that Gates guy.) Anyway, back to the shot on page 66. Here we see the prop boat followed by a real 80 Elco. Once you see them side by side, you will laugh out loud at how the prop men tricked us all these years!

Iksnay on it being a 77 hull either. Sorry Ted, it isn't the 38. The boat is drastically shorter than a real 80 (or a 77 too) The entire hull ends where the engine room hatch is on a real 80. Compare the distances between chart house and stern, and the spacing of the mock-up torpedo tubes and starboard turret compared to the real 80 Elco just aft of it. You can see the charthouse, while close, is not a real 80 Elco one, and there just isn't enough boat behind it! The forward turret is about evenly amid-ships. Compare with the trailing real boat. . Once you study it, you will see all the spacial relationships are off. And the clincher, look at that boxy stern and the amazingly high free-board, especially aft. No 80 Elco sat that high,even with no engines. And it sure couldn't be a 77, as they sat even lower aft. It's a big box with a hard chine rail on the front. No.they definitely had a prop boat and that is what we see at the reef scene and in the beaching scene. (Although I still think the final sunken 34 scene is a pile of wood with a spare 77 chart house on it.) Those who have the book, see what you think.

Mike

Posted By: Michael Vorrasi | Posted on: Jan 1, 2016 - 4:03pm
Total Posts: 72 | Joined: Jul 1, 2013 - 11:46am



Mike;
The PT 38 issue with TWE is now over. I received this message from Chip Marshall last night:
"One thing I do remember reading was the burning boat was a "half PT" built by Miami Shipbuilding. The used the open backside to squirrel away flotation barrels and the pyrotechnics for filming. I'll stand on my version of events regarding the burning boat on the beach. I got that information at the Museum of South Florida in Miami. They have a file on the filming of They Were Expendable. And I spoke with the Miami Shipbuilding's owner's son, he confirmed the contract. It came up because Miami Shipbuilding did the three PT boat conversions for the PT 109 movie shot in the Keys but did not build the right side up and up side down foredeck of the 109 used for the post-ramming scenes and some of the air raid shots simulating a sunken PT."
So even though this story is over.......PT 38 is still a mystery.
Take care,
TED







Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Jan 1, 2016 - 5:54pm
Total Posts: 3058 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am



Well, I guess we have TWE sorted out after 70 years. It is a tribute to the Hollywood special effects crew on this film that all this went undetected for so long. I guess that is why they won a well deserved special effects Oscar for the film. Still remains one of John Ford's masterpieces. Many feel it was his best film of all. The book gave me a new appreciation of what went into it. As for the 38, well, we can still hold out hope that it might exist somewhere...!
Happy New Year to all.

Mike

Posted By: Michael Vorrasi | Posted on: Jan 2, 2016 - 6:27am
Total Posts: 72 | Joined: Jul 1, 2013 - 11:46am



I'm going to throw something in here that may or may not clear some things up. About 10 years ago I met Jene Buhler, one of the sons of the Miami Shipbuilding owner, for lunch in Miami. The purpose of the meeting was discussing Miami Shipbuilding's refurbishment of a German S-boat for the intelligence community (another story). We also discussed the movies They Were Expendable and PT-109.

During the TWE part of the discussion (not very long), Jean explained the company's involvement with They Were Expendable that was being shot not too far away at Key Biscayne. They had a support role to make sure the boats were operating and received necessary maintenance on Warner Bros. dime. Warner Bros. commissioned a local boat yard (I THINK is was Miami Shipbuiilding, but I don't remember that part of the conversation) to build a half boat for this specific scene. Details? I have nothing other than the boat was built and used for the movie. Lots of questions I didn't ask: why not an 80' boat for continuity, why not take an old boat and blow it up? Guess answers: the right hand and the left hand didn't know concerning which boat. And a "boat" custom built with special effects and pyrotechnics in mind would be better for control than using a well built, but old PT boat. Anybody with explosives or demo experience please chime in here.

Please remember this was a small part of a conversation about many things PT boat (and S-boat). By the way, the S-boat in question was the S-116. But, like I said, another story.

Chip Marshall
Silver Spring, Maryland USA

Posted By: Chip Marshall | Posted on: Feb 6, 2016 - 9:27am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered



I have to agree with Ted. The boat on the rail ways, the first boat to get blasted by the shore batteries, the boat getting pulled off the coral after the beer run, and the boat blown up on the beach were all a PT 20 class MTB. If you look at the boat when she is on the ways you can see the patch job on the bow to remove some of the reverse sheer out of the stem to look like a 103 class boat. Also when ever they blow the plywood structure off of the boat you can see the aluminum structure bridge under the mock up. SO the book may not be exact. 77 foot Elco was used in the movie along with the 103 class and Huckins PT's.

Jimbo

Posted By: Jimbo Melanson | Posted on: Feb 6, 2016 - 1:04pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered



Chip, interesting info about Miami Shipbuilding and their part in the building of the mockups for "They Were Expendable," but the studio that made the film was MGM, not Warner Bros. (Warner Bros. made "PT 109").



Posted By: Drew Cook | Posted on: Feb 6, 2016 - 2:59pm
Total Posts: 1306 | Joined: Oct 19, 2006 - 10:44am



ALCON;
Just an update on this topic:

Thanks to Chip before he passed, he discovered documents that stated that PT 38 was refurbished at MTBSTC and then shipped to Pearl Harbor to serve as a ASR boat. 1945-46 timeframe.

He also discovered documents that revealed that PT 46 was also returned to Melville in the summer of 1944. So I now believe that PT 46 may have been the boat that is used in They Were Expendable in the previous scenes mentioned.

Thanks Chip….RIP Brother.

Take care,
TED



Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Mar 22, 2023 - 10:19am
Total Posts: 3058 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am



Here is an article from the Miami Herald, April 8, 1945 about blowing up a PT boat. No real number given.

prRvH.jpg


Charlie

Posted By: 29navy | Posted on: Mar 22, 2023 - 1:53pm
Total Posts: 598 | Joined: Dec 28, 2006 - 3:02pm



Thanks Charlie!
That seals it…PT 46.

Two quotes:
“she was a veteran of the canal”.
And,
“She had her stern blown off “ not exactly true, 46 was involved in a collision and the carpenters that repaired her cut some length off her bow, the repair gave her a slightly stubbier looking bow.

Take care,
TED



Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Mar 22, 2023 - 8:14pm
Total Posts: 3058 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am



Thanks Charlie!
That seals it…PT 46.

Two quotes:
“she was a veteran of the canal”.
And,
“She had her stern blown off “ not exactly true, 46 was involved in a collision and the carpenters that repaired her cut some length off her bow, the repair gave her a slightly stubbier looking bow.

Take care,
TED



Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Mar 22, 2023 - 9:12pm
Total Posts: 3058 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am



ALCON;
Follow up…

With the newspaper article Charlie found, and what I saw tonight while watching TWE for the billionth time, I took these screen shots. These are photos while the boat is on the marine railway at Dad’s Boatyard, confirm my theory 100%.
PT 46 was used, converted/disguised to look like an 80 footer, and then burned on the beach as a 77’ er again.
At sometime in The Solomons PT 46 was in a collision and the bow was damaged. The repair done to the bow was said to be noticeable and 2-3 feet short.
Look at these close ups I just saw while watching TWE.


p9hOs.jpg

[b][blue]Notice the bow planking repair is extremely noticeable.


p9Q8w.jpg

Notice the the “S” shaped bow is gone. The bow is now a simple straight line.


p94dt.jpg

Another view showing the lack of the S curve of the bow, instead, straight line.[/blue][/b]

p9p5T.png

p9wLH.jpg





Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Apr 12, 2023 - 6:33pm
Total Posts: 3058 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am



One other note that may also seal the boat as PT-46, is NAV Source and other sights, all list the fate of the 46 boat as "unknown!" Cheers, Dennis



Posted By: Stearman | Posted on: Apr 12, 2023 - 8:14pm
Total Posts: 150 | Joined: Nov 1, 2017 - 9:38pm




Please note some changes to Ted's post. The above changes were made by the request of Ted.

Dick . . .



Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Apr 13, 2023 - 12:31pm
Total Posts: 1417 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm