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» Forum Category: PT Boats of WWII
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» Forum Name: PT Boats - General
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» Topic: Ship's bell from PT 285
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Hello all - I'm here to ask for your opinion on the authenticity of a PT bell. I have no reason to think it is anything but genuine, but I can't remember from my grandfather's account whether he kept it himself or whether a shipmate kept it and later gave it to him. If it was the latter, I'd like some confirmation that it looks legitimate.

It is approximately six inches in diameter at the lip, and there is badly-peeling green paint on parts of it. My grandfather said it is the bell that was removed in Tulagi in '43 when PT-285 underwent gunboat conversion. It wasn't slated to go back on - I don't know if there was a new bell, or what - and so he or a shipmate kept it and took it home later on.

Here is a picture:

[image]https://www.dropbox.com/s/wdjw39m78i5drfh/PT%20285%20Bell.jpg?raw=1[/image]

--
Grandson of PT-285 skipper Wilbur "Rocky" Pooley

Posted By: Ethan Pooley | Posted on: Sep 15, 2015 - 11:40pm
Total Posts: 8 | Joined: Sep 15, 2015 - 11:36pm



Ethan;
You have something very rare there, I would hang onto it if I were you. While I know of a few cases of where the PT Boat ships bell was stuffed in somebody's seabag and made it home, most of them did not. So if you are not going to keep it for yourself, please donate it to PTHQ or the PT Boat Museum in Fall River, Massachusetts. Your Grandfather's boat, PT 285 "The Fighting Irish" had a special place in PT History, it has been relayed to me that the 40mm guns that were mounted on PT 285 originally came from PT 59, a 77' ELCO PT Boat that was JFK's third PT Boat command.
Take care,
TED

Ron23PT-285GB.jpg

PT285UNDERWAY.jpg




Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Sep 16, 2015 - 1:29pm
Total Posts: 3058 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am



Hi Ethan,
Thanks for your post. I think the bell you have is authentic as well. For comparison, you can look at the 2 following photos. The first is the one we have on PT658 donated from another Higgins PT Boat. PT482. We polished it up a bit and hung it on the mast. The other from a PT265 series boat was hung on the Port gun tub just aft of the helm. If you want to donate it to us we would be honored to display it as well in our new museum we are building. Thanks Jerry

PT658vanLowellDrivesoffVancouverSept2011.jpg

PT265 to PT313 series helm arrangement (photo from Al Ross' collection)
PT265to313turret-1.jpg


Jerry Gilmartin
PT658 Crewman
Portland OR

Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Sep 16, 2015 - 4:29pm
Total Posts: 1469 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm



Thank you both very much! I definitely plan to keep the bell and pass it down through my family.

Jerry, my son and I just made an appointment to tour 658 this Saturday at 1pm! It will be the first time I've ever laid eyes on a PT.

Ted, that information about the 40mm guns is priceless. I did learn of the JFK connection in general - that 283/4/5 took over the job JFK's group was doing. My grandfather had never known that, and I was able to tell him about it. He passed away at age 95 in 2012, but fortunately it was a year or two earlier that I had started to really take an interest and match up what he could tell me with online records. He is the man on the starboard side of the cockpit in the second picture you shared - he remembered the photo being taken and pointed himself out to me when it ended up in a book.

I have a half hour of well-edited audio stories about his PT experience. He was the procurement officer for Ron 23 in New Orleans, and was with the 285 boat for well over a year. He got orders back to the states when the squadron was at Mios Woendi. His stories include the trip through Panama to the Pacific and Bill Schaffner's friendly-fire version of the sinking of 283. I can make them available to you if you'd like.

As for the bell, I just uncovered the perfect reference photo that clinches it, if your two votes of confidence were not enough:

[image]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3195430/Permanent/PT%20305%20Bell%20%28for%20comparison%29.jpg?raw=1[/image] - THIS IMAGE COULD NOT BE RECOVERED, it was hosted elsewhere.



--
Grandson of PT-285 skipper Wilbur "Rocky" Pooley

Posted By: Ethan Pooley | Posted on: Sep 17, 2015 - 12:38am
Total Posts: 8 | Joined: Sep 15, 2015 - 11:36pm



Happy to hear it is authentic and that you cherish what it represents Ethan!

I think the green paint might be from when it was removed from the boat.




Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Sep 17, 2015 - 4:15am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am



Hi Ethan
I spoke to Wally about you and we will be meeting you and your son on the PT658 this Saturday. I am looking forward to your visit! Bring your camera and that bell if you can. Also if you have any other photos of the boats I would like to get a copy.

PS You may want to plan a little extra time to see the USS LCI713 which is moored right next to the PT boat. She was a WW2 combat veteran vessel as well. Plan about 45 minutes extra to see the LCI,

Jerry Gilmartin
PT658 Crewman
Portland OR

Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Sep 17, 2015 - 5:30pm
Total Posts: 1469 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm



Awesome Jerry, looking forward to it. I don't have any photos, unfortunately. I have the bell, his service records, and the audio recordings. But I'll check once more for anything else.

Not sure on the LCI - that will depend on some of our other trip timing.

--
Grandson of PT-285 skipper Wilbur "Rocky" Pooley

Posted By: Ethan Pooley | Posted on: Sep 18, 2015 - 8:32am
Total Posts: 8 | Joined: Sep 15, 2015 - 11:36pm



Hi Ethan,

Welcome aboard ! I can't wait to hear of your visit to the 658, hope you and your son have a great time.

My Dad went to Ron 23 in early 1945 as skipper of the 286, so probably did not meet your grandfather overseas. But I'll bet they met after the war
at Peter Tare reuninons.

Steve

Posted By: Nuge210 | Posted on: Sep 18, 2015 - 12:31pm
Total Posts: 323 | Joined: Jun 4, 2008 - 7:50am



I did find some photos. These may screw up the width of this page, but here they are.

Could these be before-and-after shots from the overhead photo Ted posted above?
They are all aerial, low, and near centerline on the boat. Everything visible matches.
These two look like original prints, but they have no notes whatsoever. :(

[RED][B]THE IMAES BELOW COULD NOT BE RECOVERED[/B][/RED]

[image]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3195430/Permanent/Unknown%20-%20underway1.jpg?raw=1[/image]

[image]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3195430/Permanent/Unknown%20-%20underway2.jpg?raw=1[/image]

An assortment of small shots, some with censor stamps:

[image]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3195430/Permanent/Various1.jpg?raw=1[/image]

A newspaper article quoting my grandfather about PT experiences:

[image]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3195430/Permanent/Article%20-%20Stalking%20Jap%20barges.jpg?raw=1[/image]

--
Grandson of PT-285 skipper Wilbur "Rocky" Pooley

Posted By: Ethan Pooley | Posted on: Sep 18, 2015 - 11:19pm
Total Posts: 8 | Joined: Sep 15, 2015 - 11:36pm



Here is an update from Ethan's trip to visit the PT658 yesterday. Ethan and his son showed up and Wally Boerger and I were there to show him around. Ethan had brought the bell from the PT285 for comparison to the bell we have from PT481. We noticed they both are similar in that the Engraving or Stamping on both bells is on a rising slant. The USS PT 285 slowly rises in height from the bells rim as each letter was stamped onto the bell. It appears that the bell from PT305 is the same if you look closely at the photo. Ethan also brought a Higgins PT Boat Tie Clip, which I believe was handed out at the Higgins PT Boat Squadron Commissioning ceremonies by Higgins, and is not a post war copy of anything. It looks different from the Elco tie clip pins. Anyway we spent about an hour with Ethan showing him the entire boat, and his son was especially interested in the twin 50 cals! Looks like he may be a future sailor! Thanks Ethan for coming to visit! Jerry

Wally Boerger and Ethan and son inside PT658 charthouse

IMG_2591.jpg


Ethan and son at the helm
IMG_2597.jpg


Ethans son Oliver inside the Port Twin 50 turret
IMG_2599.jpg


Comparing the two bells
IMG_2607.jpg


Closeup of two bells with slanted upwards writing
IMG_2606.jpg


Higgins tie clip front
IMG_2609.jpg


Higgins tie clip rear
IMG_2610.jpg


Thanks Jerry


Jerry Gilmartin
PT658 Crewman
Portland OR

Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Sep 20, 2015 - 9:24am
Total Posts: 1469 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm



Ethan;
Those photos you just posted, answered a question I had for years. I didn't know if the overhead photo of PT 285 was taken on Lake Ponchartrain, LA or in Panama. Your photos make it clear, that is Toboga Island, Panama in your photos.
Glad you and your son had a great time with Jerry and the 658 crew. He sure looks like a future gunners mate!
Take care,
TED



Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Sep 21, 2015 - 6:36am
Total Posts: 3058 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am



Here is photo of Ron 23 officers:
bottom left is the 286's CO, A. I. "Kit' Carson and standing
at left is Jess Mulkey who was CO of the 278 ( and I think another boat or two ).

Anyone know anybody else ?

Ron23Officers.jpg

Steve

Posted By: Nuge210 | Posted on: Sep 21, 2015 - 5:00pm
Total Posts: 323 | Joined: Jun 4, 2008 - 7:50am



Many thanks Jerry! We had a great time. We did go over and see the LCI at the end, too. When you are done with that bell pull, my address is 712 S 1st Ave, Walla Walla, WA 99362.

Ted, glad to have answered that question for you. I am convinced the shots are all from the same series. The flemished lines at the stern in the overhead shot can be seen in exactly the same places, and in the same relative sizes and lightness, in the stern-on shot. It's easier to pick out in the original with a loupe. And the flemished line on the forecastle and the jumbled line further to port can just be made out in the bow-on shot. I also realized that the light/dark blotches on the overhead shot aren't glare or print damage, but actually the camouflage pattern. That matches the bow-on shot too: lightest at the nose and at the very edges of the front of the pilothouse. Did all PTs in a series have the same pattern, or did it tend to be unique?

--
Grandson of PT-285 skipper Wilbur "Rocky" Pooley

Posted By: Ethan Pooley | Posted on: Sep 22, 2015 - 10:53pm
Total Posts: 8 | Joined: Sep 15, 2015 - 11:36pm



Here are the first two audio files of my grandfather talking about his PT experience:

1. Joining Squadron 23
2. To the Pacific with PT 285

These were recorded in 2010 when he was 93. There are a few names and numbers that are misremembered or misspoken. When I get around to transcribing these I'll be able to note those; it's a bit hard to do anything like that with audio presentations. The main one in this set is where he refers to the Colombia River, which must have been the Magdalena.

--
Grandson of PT-285 skipper Wilbur "Rocky" Pooley

Posted By: Ethan Pooley | Posted on: Sep 24, 2015 - 10:37am
Total Posts: 8 | Joined: Sep 15, 2015 - 11:36pm



Hi Ethan,

My name is Linda Hamilton and I am the daughter of Richard Hamilton, the last skipper of PT 305. I was elated to read your post and am hoping you could tell me where you found the reference photo of the USS PT 305 bell.

Thank you very much.

Linda

Linda Hamilton

Posted By: LHamilton | Posted on: Jul 16, 2016 - 12:31am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered



Linda;
Just from the photo, I can tell you the PT 305 bell photo was taken at the PT Museum in Fall River, Mass. Those are the same display cases and item description that they use. It is probably on board USS Massachusetts, the have a large squadron display there of artifacts off of many different boats. As you can see, The bell was donated by your Dad. Maybe, it will be sent to New Orleans, if it has not already.
Take care,
TED



Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Jul 16, 2016 - 7:07am
Total Posts: 3058 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am



Hi Linda.
Yes I actually took that photograph of the PT305 Bell. I was visiting the Battleship Cove Museum located in Fall River Mass, where the PT Boat Museum is located. The PT Boat Museum is actually on the 2nd Deck aft on the Battleship USS Massachussetts BB59. I think that both Randy Smith and Bob Stengle in New Orleans who are working on restoration of the PT305 are working with Don Shannon to obtain the Bell from the PT Boat Museum for use on the restored PT305. You may want to contact the guys in New Orleans to assist them in their efforts to get the bell loaned to them, since it was your father who did the original donation. Here is that photo once again. Good luck and I hope you are successful. Jerry

Bell in RON22 Display Case
IMG_0940.jpg


Throttles and EOT in RON22 Display case
IMG_0939.jpg


Observer Compass in RON22 Display Case next to Bell
IMG_0941.jpg



Jerry Gilmartin
PT658 Crewman
Portland OR

Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Jul 16, 2016 - 8:42pm
Total Posts: 1469 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm



Ted and Jerry,

Thank you so very much for the information. It is very much appreciated. I will certainly follow up with the National WWII Museum as you suggested. I am overwhelmed by the outstanding job they have done restoring PT 305 and am hopeful that the bell will find it's way home.

Thanks again,and best wishes to you and your loved ones.

Linda

Linda Hamilton

Posted By: LHamilton | Posted on: Jul 16, 2016 - 11:21pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered



Hi,

My name is Allen Breed. My father, the late Dr. Robert T. Breed, was on the 283 with Bill Shaffner. You mentioned in an old post that you had an interview with Shaffner about the 283's sinking. If you still have it, I'd love to hear/read it. I did some research myself at the National Archives and found records suggesting the 283 was sunk by an errant round from the USS Guest.

Thank you in advance. I hope to hear from you.

Best,

Allen



Posted By: abreed | Posted on: Sep 7, 2022 - 2:07pm
Total Posts: 12 | Joined: Sep 7, 2022 - 1:49pm



Also, I have some stuff from Ron 23 that members might be interested in, including some rosters and what I think is an original patch showing Bugs Bunny giving the finger to the enemy.



Posted By: abreed | Posted on: Sep 8, 2022 - 1:02pm
Total Posts: 12 | Joined: Sep 7, 2022 - 1:49pm




Since this post was reactivated - (brought forward with new posting). I have unburied the photos lost to the Photobucket debacle and reinstated them into the post. Sorry there were some that were hosted at other location (DropBox and inactive) and have no resources to update them.

Dick . . .




Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Sep 9, 2022 - 11:37am
Total Posts: 1417 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm



Thank you Dick, how you manage to dig up those old photos from that jerk company that left millions high and dry is impressive. [:-cheers-:]

Can you post some photos Allen? I don't remember ever seeing a patch of Bugs flipping the bird before, sounds pretty risque for the time! If you prefer, you can e-mail me the image(s) and I'll do it for you.



Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Sep 10, 2022 - 7:36am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am



I found this photo. Perhaps he can be viewed as "giving the finger" if you squint your eyes a little.

pOAJn.jpg

Jerry Gilmartin
PT658 Crewman
Portland OR

Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Sep 17, 2022 - 8:27pm
Total Posts: 1469 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm



I don't know how reliable a lot of these militaria places are, when it comes to authenticity, but I found patches similar to that drawing on both flying tiger and griffin. I have been led to understand that non-fluorescence is a good thing when it comes to antiques, but that's about the extent of my knowledge there

[url]https://www.flyingtigerantiques.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=usnup20023mtb&Category_Code=06usnup[/url]

[url]https://griffinmilitaria.com/product/wwii-motor-torpedo-boat-squadron-23-bugs-bunny-jacket-patch/[/url]



Posted By: Joe Reese | Posted on: Sep 17, 2022 - 10:14pm
Total Posts: 85 | Joined: Aug 2, 2022 - 11:02am



Thank you Jerry, sure looks like a bird flipping to me!

Thank you too Joe, Hooowee out of my price range! I noticed that they differ slightly especially on the backs, especially on the bottom of the "3" and middle of the "2". One is mostly yellow and the other white, which probably means nothing at all. Maybe different manufacturers. Can you tell that 25+ years on the internet has made me a bit suspicious of everything I see? :D



Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Sep 19, 2022 - 6:53am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am



Greetings,

I found my dad's Ron 23 patch. I'm not sure if it was original, meaning from wartime, or something he got later. I do remember that he was kind of embarrassed of Bugs' obscene gesture in his old age.

Allen

pOL1Z.jpg



Posted By: abreed | Posted on: Sep 19, 2022 - 9:31am
Total Posts: 12 | Joined: Sep 7, 2022 - 1:49pm



Thanks Allen, very cool! I don't mind rude at all and love the insignia. [:-laughing-:]



Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Sep 22, 2022 - 5:48am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am



Yeah. It seems like an appropriate sentiment at the time.



Posted By: abreed | Posted on: Sep 22, 2022 - 10:15am
Total Posts: 12 | Joined: Sep 7, 2022 - 1:49pm



I Googled "flipping the bird" and found this, Waaaay longer ago than I thought:

"The first known use of “flipping the bird” was in ancient Greece. The Greek philosopher Diogenes, born in Sinope in 412 BC, was one of the founders of Cynicism—and a bit of a troublemaker from the start."



Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Sep 23, 2022 - 9:53am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am



The Greeks really DID have a word for it!



Posted By: abreed | Posted on: Oct 10, 2022 - 12:17pm
Total Posts: 12 | Joined: Sep 7, 2022 - 1:49pm



@abreed I do have the recordings and would be happy to share them with you. You can email me at ethan at ethanpooley dot net. Schaffner's retelling paints LtCmdr Irving in a poor light. I would rather not spread around material that is derogatory toward someone else's father/grandfather/etc, true or not, at this late date. So I'll share them directly with you.

--
Grandson of PT-285 skipper Wilbur "Rocky" Pooley

Posted By: Ethan Pooley | Posted on: Aug 7, 2023 - 1:42pm
Total Posts: 8 | Joined: Sep 15, 2015 - 11:36pm