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» Forum Category: PT Boats of WWII
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» Forum Name: PT Boats - General
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» Topic:
1/72 PT-109 redo
http://www.ptboatforum.com/cgi-bin/MB2/netboardr.cgi?cid=101&fid=102&tid=3724
I learned a chemistry lesson about lead and how to create an acidic atmosphere causing lead to corrode. That has given me the motivation to correct my 109 model based on new information I've learned about these boats. Here's what we're doing...
1. Removing the old ignition wiring from the torpedo tubes and replacing them with copper. At least that's the plan right now.
2. Relocating the depth charge racks to the correct location.
3. Adding the armor plate to the front of the cockpit.
4. Removing the photo etch windscreen frame and replacing it with Archer rivet decal strips.
5. Fixing the toe rail.
6. Changing all but the the forward facing windows to black to match the photos I've seen of the interior shade system.
7. Do something more convincing with the ropes securing the 37mm.
Then I'm going to pray I get the color right!
Dave
David Waples
Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Nov 16, 2014 - 4:24pm
Total Posts: 1679 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm
Go for it!
Will
Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Nov 16, 2014 - 4:57pm
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm
Going to add the Palm Logs Dave?
D.buck
Posted By: David Buck | Posted on: Nov 16, 2014 - 9:17pm
Total Posts: 332 | Joined: May 4, 2008 - 2:59am
Going to add the Palm Logs Dave?
D.buck
Hi Dave,
No. This is one of those situations where we'll never know the right answer. In Donovan's book they were very specific about planks, how they were secured, and no wheels. That the planks were secured to the boat but who knows how. Barney Ross refers to the carpenters working on securing it to the deck so that it doesn't roll around and said the wheels were still on. He also refers to taking a "piece of wood" that the carpenters were using to swim to the island. Harris is the only one that refers to coconut logs.
There's just not enough to go on and the truth is lost to time. My version of the truth will be with the wheels off and no coconut logs. I think it's just as acceptable to honor any of these versions though. What would have been fun to do is get a 1/72 LCVP, crane, and do a water scene with the gun being transferred to the deck. I'll leave that idea to somebody else. It would make a great diorama though.
Dave
David Waples
Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Nov 16, 2014 - 10:02pm
Total Posts: 1679 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm
Hi Dave,
OK my last was a little bit of a tongue in cheek bit of fun and I understand what you put forward as the way you wish to depict the 109. More power to you as each of us has his/her own idea as to what we see with the subjects of history being very hard to portray without either being there or some very accurate report covering every aspect at that time.
However as you have the Book from N.Hamilton try page 554 paragraph 3 starting with, This was no--
And also page 556 after, Barney Ross recalls,
Looking at it from a different angle one of the things that has to be taken into consideration is that the 37mm that was placed on the 109 was an antitank model not an automatic version that became standard on the boats over time, I do not know what the recoil forces on the 37mm was like however it was designed so that a fair proportion of the carriage recoil was transferred to the spades on the trail arms ( not to be confused with the recoil buffer that slowed, stopped then returned the barrel to battery) to be absorbed by digging the spades into the ground. Having been a member of an artillery unit in this country I have experienced first hand what that recoil can do, one 105 howitzer firing full charge with its spades dug into the ground hard up against a very large rock made such an impact on the rock that after a couple of dozen rounds we could fill sand bags with what used to be a rock!
Imagine that on a PT Boats deck, while the 37mm may not be as powerful it would still need to be contained.
But again it's only my two cents worth we will all build the 109 and other boats and other models and as long as we are happy with the result then what we say here, as far as I am concerned helps me to delve into a little bit of history( and sometimes add to the confusion as well as drive the wife nuts) with like minded people!
Ta Dave,
D.buck
Posted By: David Buck | Posted on: Nov 17, 2014 - 10:54pm
Total Posts: 332 | Joined: May 4, 2008 - 2:59am
Dave, I'll send you my JROTC handbook so you can get the knots to Jerry's satisfaction.
[green]What would have been fun to do is get a 1/72 LCVP, crane, and do a water scene with the gun being transferred to the deck.[/green]
That would eliminate some potential disagreement!
I don't think the lashed mounting was meant to be fired David B, it was temporary until the engineers mounted it.
Bummer about the lead, but I can't wait to see your finished rework. Is there a way to ventilate the case and still have it dust free?
Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Nov 18, 2014 - 11:38am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am
Jeff;
You are correct it was a temporarily secured to the deck, probably so another boat crew would not be able to " liberate" it for their own boat, while they were gone on patrol.
Take care,
TED
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Nov 18, 2014 - 1:35pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
IF it had the wheels still mounted, maybe planks to secure it and a log/logs as sort of wheel chocks.
....or not...
Will
Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Nov 18, 2014 - 2:25pm
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm
With the lead gone it won't be an issue anymore. However the report recommended drilling small holes to allow outside air to flow through. I don't think dust will be an issue. I could put small amounts of cotton balls in the holes to act as filters.
I have to tell you I'm half tempted to remove the 37mm. I suspect I'll leave it. It's certainly a point of discussion and controversial as art often is. If I can get away with calling this art.
Dave
David Waples
Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Nov 18, 2014 - 9:31pm
Total Posts: 1679 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm
Great idea about drilling the holes David! I like the way your version looks with the 37mm mounted on there with the planks. I think you should keep it on there!
Jerry
Jerry Gilmartin
PT658 Crewman
Portland OR
Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Nov 19, 2014 - 2:43am
Total Posts: 1473 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm
Yes David, it is certainly art.
I wonder if they ever made planks out of palm logs.
Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Nov 19, 2014 - 3:14am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am
Hi Ted,
Here is the section from the book I have been referring to:
"Finding a surplus 37mm antitank gun, he (Kennedy) asked whether he might have it and, returning to Lumbari, announced to his astonished crew that he wished them to secure it to the forward deck.
This was no easy matter, and it also entailed removing the regulation life raft. Though the crew managed to bolt the wheels of the cannon down to the deck, the legs presented more of a problem, since they had to absorb the guns powerful recoil. In the end it was decided to tie them temporarily to two huge lengths of coconut tree and lash these timbers to the deck with rope, much as Nelson's cannons had been secured.
By the morning of August 1,1943, the work was done. In addition to its torpedos, PT 109 could now claim to be a gunboat of sorts."
After reading this section through there appears to be a number of things that assist us with the securing of the gun, also that while the legs of the gun presented a problem a temporary fix was found, however LT. Kennedy fully intended that the gun be ready to fire if needed other wise why would he have need of Barney Ross offered as it was the position of gunnery officer for the 37mm.
The above section that I have taken from the book does not have any one specific person named as quoted however the front notes of the book state that, the book is written from notes, published letters and documents as well as over two thousand interviews.
If you are wondering about the book I am referring to it is,
JFK life and death of an American President, Volume One: Reckless Youth.
Author Nigel Hamilton.
Good read with lots of lnteresting bits and pieces on Lt. Kennedys war time service.
One could say that the author has a fair handle on his subject and if one were to require a little clarification of a certain point then he would probably welcome the inquiry.
D.buck
Posted By: David Buck | Posted on: Nov 19, 2014 - 3:20am
Total Posts: 332 | Joined: May 4, 2008 - 2:59am
Interesting stuff, for sure, but...My memories of the "Reckless Youth" book was that it was pretty much a hatchet job on JFK, and the made-for-TV-movie of it was particularly awful in regards to the PT 109 incident -- very lame.
I've always wondered about the wheels-on-or-off question regarding the 37 mm on the foredeck, too, but, having to go with one setup or the other, I'd stick with the last well-documented source, the Donovan book, which had it with the wheels (tires and rims) removed.
It certainly wouldn't take long to unbolt the five nuts on each of the wheel hubs and remove the tires/rims, and to me, it would make sense to swing the lower armor plate section (which was to protect the gun crew against low, or "skipping" counter-battery fire) forward -- flat -- and rest the gun on the plate, bolting the axles to the 2'' x 8" planks, Any-hoo, that's the setup I've always envisioned -- with maybe a coconut log crossways against the trail leg spades.
Posted By: Drew Cook | Posted on: Nov 19, 2014 - 2:04pm
Total Posts: 1306 | Joined: Oct 19, 2006 - 10:44am
Yeah, Drew. Your way is a good as any, and a hell of a lot better than some of the modeling setups we've seen.
Will
Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Nov 19, 2014 - 3:53pm
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm
A quick update. Tonight I added some decal rivets to the wind screen along with the framing. Prior to doing that I applied a thin coat of Future so the decals would lay down nice. The framing needs to be trimmed once it dries. I'll probably get around to it this weekend. You can see the armor plate primed and in place as well. Final touch was to shave down the windscreen between the frames just a little to give it that sagged look. Definitely an improvement over the photo etch window framing I think. Finally I mixed up some paint to match my original color.
Dave
David Waples
Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Nov 19, 2014 - 8:52pm
Total Posts: 1679 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm
In for a penny.....
Looking at a photo Jeff sent to me I decided to go ahead and frame out the cockpit starboard side wall. You can also see the vent I added to the starboard spray shield. Ah yes, more to paint. You can also catch where I blacked out the windows. I'll need to tone those down just a little. Pure black is just a little too much. Finally you can see the lower tube stabilizer bars I installed.
Dave
David Waples
Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Dec 3, 2014 - 8:45pm
Total Posts: 1679 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm
Always in awe of your work.
Posted By: ducati650 | Posted on: Dec 4, 2014 - 3:23pm
Total Posts: 450 | Joined: Feb 19, 2007 - 10:01am
Thanks Ed!
Okay, I decided I needed to add the eyebrows over the windows. I've glued them in place and will brush paint them tomorrow. It will probably take a couple of coats. While I was at it I decided to fix the LUX pull. It was square before and I've converted it to being round.
David Waples
Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Dec 9, 2014 - 8:23pm
Total Posts: 1679 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm
Looking good, Dave...again!
Posted By: Drew Cook | Posted on: Dec 11, 2014 - 7:04pm
Total Posts: 1306 | Joined: Oct 19, 2006 - 10:44am
Jeff D: "I wonder if they ever made planks out of palm logs. "
They'd have had the shop tools available, so can't see why not. It certainly happens now. Here in Thailand palm planks are a flooring option. Looks rather nice due to the two-tone grain.
Posted By: zeusbheld | Posted on: Dec 13, 2014 - 8:24pm
Total Posts: 61 | Joined: Aug 12, 2014 - 9:54pm
