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» Forum Name: PT Boats - General
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» Topic: Torpedo Tube ID Assistance
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Hi All,

I need some assistance identifying the below Ron 26 torpedo tubes that were used with the squadron's initial Mk8 torpedo setup. These seem to have been an upgrade from the earlier MK 18 tubes with the torsion bars. The Ron 26 boats (PT255-264) carried 4 and differed from the earlier Huckins (PT95-102) which carried just two Mk 18 tubes and 8 depth charges (PT255 and 256 originally had this same setup including the 50 cal deflector shields but were fully upgraded shortly after commissioning). All the Ron 26 boats were eventually upgraded to 4 torp racks (some within weeks of commissioning) and had SO radars before leaving Florida.

PT 257 (pictured) and PT 258 were the last of the squadron boats to be upgraded to Mk1 racks in Feb 44 (Pearl Harbor).

Notice the unusual vent on the side of the pilot house, these were only on the Ron 26 Huckins.

Thanks for your assistance! Any pointers to tube drawings would be appreciated.
Andy

photo



Posted By: Andy Small | Posted on: Nov 2, 2014 - 7:27am
Total Posts: 259 | Joined: Nov 20, 2013 - 9:04pm



To help in the ID, in the original PT Boats In Action you can see the same tubes on Page 18 - PT 196 photo, Page 20 - PT 333 photo, and Page 21 - PT 362 photo.

Andy



Posted By: Andy Small | Posted on: Nov 2, 2014 - 11:32am
Total Posts: 259 | Joined: Nov 20, 2013 - 9:04pm



It has some features of the Mark 18 Mod 5 tube but it doesn't quite match the drawings.

I have a photo of PT 196 with maybe the Mod 5 tube, it looks different than the image you posted. It shows a rib on either side of the mounts.

Here's the 196:
[url]http://www.pt103.com/images/ptpics/PT_196_With_Teeth.jpg[/url]

An image of PT 362 with what looks like a similar tube to the one you posted:
[url]http://www.pt103.com/images/torpedoTubes/PT_362_Torpedo_Tube.jpg[/url]

Please let me know if you find out what tube it is Andy, I thought the 362 tube was a Mod 5...




Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Nov 3, 2014 - 2:11am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am



That's really an odd looking boat. Are we sure it's even an Elco? The trim around the turret base is unusually oversized. There are different vents that what we're used to seeing on 80' Elco's. The unusual framing on the foredeck and around the ammo lockers. Not to mention that strange vent or whatever it is stick out the side. Also no spray shields coming off the Chart House as you would expect. Have you identified this boat? Just curious. :-)
Dave

David Waples

Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Nov 3, 2014 - 5:24am
Total Posts: 1679 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm



Dave;
Its Huckins PT 257 RON 26 and from the small amount of background I can see, she looks like she is moored to a anchor buoy at Toboga Island, Panama.
Take care,
TED



Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Nov 3, 2014 - 5:49am
Total Posts: 3058 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am



Ted, wait a minute! Are you saying that there were other PT boats BESIDES Elcos? I am not sure I believe that one my friend! I thought that PT109 was the only PT boat that was ever built! Can you tell that I am kidding yet?

Jerry Gilmartin
PT658 Crewman
Portland OR

Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Nov 3, 2014 - 6:51am
Total Posts: 1469 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm



These tubes were also installed on PT333 and PT362, as well as Elco's shark mouthed painted PT-196. I was busy doing what I thought were mindless detail drawings of the Huckins PTs for my project, and was using several closeup Ron 26 photos when I experienced my Homer Simpson moment, but only after I corrected my drawings repeated times.....

I'm thinking these were on the Elco boats for just a short period of time as an upgrade to the Mk18 tubes. This is a WAG, but (with the exception of the first batch of Ron 26 boats) they were probably all upgraded to the Mk1 racks stateside by about Sep-Oct 43.

Andy

photo



Posted By: Andy Small | Posted on: Nov 3, 2014 - 7:17am
Total Posts: 259 | Joined: Nov 20, 2013 - 9:04pm



Ted,

You are bang on.

The original photo is PT 257 in Taboga Island about Sep-Oct 43 when she and PT 258 were temporarily assigned to Ron 14 and the Panama Frontier, providing ready boat, patrols, and training. They stayed gray during their few months, and did not receive the Ron 14 Measure 31/5P scheme.

The other boats in the Ron26A batch had shipped to Hawaii and would be the first Ron 26 boats stationed at Pearl City. Eventually these same four were shipped to Midway to replace the 77' Elcos. PT 257 and PT 258 would ship to Hawaii with the Ron26B batch on Christmas Eve 43.

Andy



Posted By: Andy Small | Posted on: Nov 3, 2014 - 7:35am
Total Posts: 259 | Joined: Nov 20, 2013 - 9:04pm



The tube in the color image of PT 333 you posted, and the image of PT 196 I posted, is maybe a Mark 18 Mod 5 Andy, and not the same as the one in your Huckins photo or the photo of PT 362 I posted. The ribs around the tube are different.

To quote the infamous Ted Walther: "Higgins, the box an Elco comes in.". [:-laughing-:]




Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Nov 3, 2014 - 8:19am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am



Hi Jeff,

You are most correct! Missed that. The mounts are the same but the ones on the Huckins have 3 bands and not the four. As you mentioned, the photo of PT 362 does have the exact same ones. Probably the next and final version developed for the Elcos?

Andy

photo



Posted By: Andy Small | Posted on: Nov 3, 2014 - 11:15am
Total Posts: 259 | Joined: Nov 20, 2013 - 9:04pm



Maybe this tube version had been manufactured specifically for Elco, but because the MK13 torps were coming online, they shipped them all south to be installed on the Huckins. The Ron 26A batch left Miami for CZ in early June 43. The Ron 26B batch had these tubes removed in Miami at the beginning of October 43, just before heading to the CZ.

Andy



Posted By: Andy Small | Posted on: Nov 3, 2014 - 11:40am
Total Posts: 259 | Joined: Nov 20, 2013 - 9:04pm



Andy and Ted,
Thanks for the history lesson. Where can I learn more about PT's at Panama?

Jerry,
Don't be a hater. I know deep down you love the 109 like the rest of us. :-)

Dave

David Waples

Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Nov 3, 2014 - 6:46pm
Total Posts: 1679 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm



Dave,

For info outside of what has been covered in various published PT Boat books and government documents such as the Administrative History of PT's in World War II, the PT Boat Archives in Germantown has a great deal of info and photos available, but requires a visit. The National Archives has piles of primary info, including deck logs, war diaries and BuShips files, which allow you to piece together the different boat/squadron activities in the CZ. Fortunately fold3 website has made jpg files of the war diaries and you should be able to piece a good timeline of CZ PT boat activities through these reports. Sometimes they also list mods and repairs completed by the facilities, but it takes lots of shifting through the chaff.

Cheers,
Andy



Posted By: Andy Small | Posted on: Nov 4, 2014 - 7:43am
Total Posts: 259 | Joined: Nov 20, 2013 - 9:04pm



Dave;
Andy is spot on. To find out about PT's in Panama you have to sift through various sources, and it is hit and miss. One thing that motivates me is I was stationed there for 5 years and traveled back and forth for 3 while in the Navy. Also my wife is from there, so we go back almost every year. I have been on Toboga a lot. Jack Searles and Tom Kendall were also sources of my info.
As Andy stated, Deck Logs at the National Achieves has been a large source of my info, especially PT 48's deck logs. while looking at FOLD3, back tracking does not always work here, as 15th Naval district logs are almost useless, however, they do show evidence that plans were made to have multiple FOB PT Boat bases within the15th Naval Districts area of responsibility, as sight surveys were done, one that pleasantly surprised me was Flamingo, Costa Rica(which I went to in 1995 with 4 PB's, 2 MK lll and 2 MK lV's on our way to El Salvador). it is an excellent area, easily enough room to accommodate a squadron or two of PT Boats. I can see this was originally proposed to increase operational search areas and act as protection/early warning for canal defense, then as the war progressed they continued along this path as it would have create a more realistic advanced training scenario for squadrons deploying to forward areas. however, this seems to have only gone to the planning stages.Today, there is an awesome yacht club and hotel, looking at current photos on trip advisor, it has built up some since I was there, but, it is still a favorite stop for sailboats and yachts heading down from US west coast or Mexico.
Take care,
TED



Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Nov 5, 2014 - 7:09am
Total Posts: 3058 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am



Jeff,

Found my answer while looking through all my national archive material. I found a 1 Dec 43 reference in the PT 255 deck log book listing the tubes they removed as Mk 18 Mod Vs, so I guess there were two versions of the Mod V. You mentioned drawings you had of the Mod V?

Cheers,
Andy



Posted By: Andy Small | Posted on: Nov 9, 2014 - 7:52pm
Total Posts: 259 | Joined: Nov 20, 2013 - 9:04pm



I forgot to say thank you Andy for pointing out PT 362s tube type and the new boat pics with different tubes. I count 4 noticeably different tubes so far on the Elco boats including the later Mark 19 air driven type. I think Stu noticed some small parts changes on the Mark 18 tubes which may account for some mods.

I may be wrong but I don't think design changes would be made without giving a different mod number... The drawings can be downloaded here: [url]http://www.pt103.gdinc.com/drawings/21inchAWTorpedoTubeMark18.zip[/url].

Here's some assembly drawing crops to compare the mod 1 and 5 tubes: [url]http://www.pt103.com/images/asst/21inch_AW_Torpedo_Tube_Mk18_Mod_Comparison2small.jpg[/url].




Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Nov 10, 2014 - 4:04am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am



Thanks Jeff,

I just double checked to make sure that PT255 didn't have different tubes from the others, but the photos all check out for Ron 26 being fitted out the same for commissioning. PT 363 also had the same tubes (CA photo posted on NavSource) as PT 362, so probably the whole batch (362 thru 367) that were shipped from Elco out to CA for assembly had them? Maybe there's some related paperwork for this. Drawing 1798-24 mentions an Alteration A to the rear support in May 13, 43. Having trouble reading the details of the alteration. Looks like these tubes had a lot more interesting thingees forward instead of the usual smooth tube.

Here are some more cropped Huckins photos showing some additional details - Andy

Photo Taken in Jacksonville during commissioning - shows multiple views of the tubes. Of note the first couple of boats in the Ron 26 batch still had wood deflectors on their 50s, these were replaced with rails within weeks of this photo.

photo

Photo of the aft tube on PT 257 taken down in Panama about Sep-Oct 43.

photo



Posted By: Andy Small | Posted on: Nov 10, 2014 - 6:51am
Total Posts: 259 | Joined: Nov 20, 2013 - 9:04pm



Cool images, once again thanks Andy. Yes they do have a lot going on along the top...

I think the alt text says "rear support changed to agree with detail".




Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Nov 10, 2014 - 9:35am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am