The PT Boat Forum
http://www.ptboatforum.com/cgi-bin/MB2/netboard.cgi

ť Forum Category: PT Boats of WWII
http://www.ptboatforum.com/cgi-bin/MB2/netboard.cgi?cid=101&fct=showf

ť Forum Name: PT Boats - General
http://www.ptboatforum.com/cgi-bin/MB2/netboard.cgi?fct=gotoforum&cid=101&fid=102

ť Topic: The PTSIG site saga continues...
http://www.ptboatforum.com/cgi-bin/MB2/netboardr.cgi?cid=101&fid=102&tid=3694

One of the most recent entries on the PTSIG site asserts that PT61, as seen in Ken Prescott's color photos, could have been NAVY GREEN. Well, NAVY GREEN (5NG) is an official USN color, mixed to a specific formula, There were at least two different formulae, with the change occurring in 1943. Both were a dark green:

[image]http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i204/alross2/g2_zps7f23eaac.jpg[/image]

[image]http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i204/alross2/g3_zpsdf1bd0e6.jpg[/image]

(The actual colors are darker and greener than they appear on your screen, but you can get an idea of what they looked like.)

As you can see, they do not even vaguely resemble the color of PT 61 in the photos. In an earlier thread, Wayne noted that Prescott told him he painted the boat in a home brew of NAVY BLUE and GRAY. In his book, Prescott talks about using a mixture of ARMY GREEN (whatever that might have been) and lots of WHITE to arrive at a ...bluish-green.... Whichever color it was, neither is NAVY GREEN (5NG)..

The boat nested outboard of 61 is green. Whether it was NAVY GREEN, TROPICAL GREEN, or a homebrew is open to question. TROPICAL GREEN, which we know from a memo in Tracy's camouflage site was a mixture of four parts zinc chromate to one part 5TM (blue tinting material), looked like this:
[image]http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i204/alross2/g4_zpsa05bb5f5.jpg[/image]
(All color chips matched to originals by John Snyder)

In the same thread, mention is made of ... the barrel in the right frame (next to the gold plug or whatever it is)... The barrel is a depth charge and the gold plug is the depth setting device for the detonator.

Sigh[:-unhappy-:]

Al Ross

Posted By: alross2 | Posted on: Oct 7, 2014 - 5:49pm
Total Posts: 993 | Joined: Oct 30, 2006 - 8:19pm

Sigh. Plus salt air and sun would bleach out any of these colors, I should think.

Thanks, Al.

Will

Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Oct 7, 2014 - 6:37pm
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm

If I'm not mistaken, there were green boats close by on either side of the 61. If that's an untouched photo clip, the slight green tinge could be reflected from them.

Nice chips Al, thanks.

Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Oct 8, 2014 - 2:38am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am

Don't know what the "PTSIG" site is, but the 61 in those Prescott Kodachrome photos is definitely gray, not "green" by any standard or measure.

As stated, the boat outboard (and also inboard) of the 61 in those photos IS (ARE) green (the outboard one lighter, the inboard one -- PT 109? -- except for it's sun-blasted and foot-scuffed deck, somewhat darker).

At least that's what these (corrected to 20/20 and non-color-blind) eyes tell me.

Posted By: Drew Cook | Posted on: Oct 8, 2014 - 6:57am
Total Posts: 1306 | Joined: Oct 19, 2006 - 10:44am

I was mistaken about the POSSIBILITY of a REFLECTED green color, it's just plain not there. I had this non-RE...RE...FWD...RE...FWD shot from 2008. I believe the source is Ted, he got them from Mr. Prescott. If you don't mind Ted, let me know if this is the original untouched photo please:

[image]http://www.pt103.com/images/ptpics/PT_061_Engineering_Dept.jpg[/image]

This one is from a 2012 save and looks like it may have been retouched:

[image]http://www.pt103.com/images/ptpics/PT_061_01.jpg[/image]

The caps in my first line were out of annoyance at Garth twisting my words around again on his FB page. From my If that's an untouched photo clip, the slight green tinge could be reflected from them., he posts the definitive [maroon]I've been told and I've seen it said because of the proximity of the other boats, the 61 would look green when she wasn't[/maroon]. At least someone there let him know that my statement was a possibility.

Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Oct 8, 2014 - 11:04am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am

Jeff:
They are direct enlargements from his Kodachrome slides. No copies here. Both Wayne and I have enlargements of Ken's Kodachrome slides. Ken sent them first to Wayne about 1984-86, then Wayne sent them back. Then around 1996, Ken sent them to me in Panama, I had my prints made, then mailed them back to Ken.
Take care,
TED

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Oct 8, 2014 - 3:41pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

Thanks Ted, I wanted to make sure that the 1st one is the original color as you received it. The top photo is the image he is using, you can see the different tint from some photo editing program:

[image]http://www.pt103.com/images/ptpics/PT_061_Tweaked.jpg[/image]
[image]http://www.pt103.com/images/ptpics/PT_061_Engineering_Dept.jpg[/image]

I feel bad for the knowledgeable man trying to help him. He has him using the tweaked image even though he now knows of the false colors in it.

The source is here Drew: [url]http://www.facebook.com/groups/PTBOATSIG/[/url]

Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Oct 8, 2014 - 5:00pm
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am

I'm still amazed how badly these boats faded. Amazing what throwing down some water on the deck does to bring back the color.
Dave

David Waples

Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Oct 8, 2014 - 8:33pm
Total Posts: 1679 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm

Jeff;
I think the one you thought was retouched looks that way because it was later in the day. in the other photos the sun appears to be on the portside of 61 creating, shadows to starboard. In the crew on the bow photo this is now the case, suggesting the sun might be blocked by clouds or the tree line to starboard.
Take care
TED

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Oct 8, 2014 - 8:41pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

Thanks Ted, and thank you for sharing these photos. They really are special. And it's good to see most of the men smiling. Besides color images, that's pretty rare too.

Yes Dave, the color difference is striking. I wonder if they wetted the deck for a reason, or just happened to be swabbing when the camera came out.

Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Oct 9, 2014 - 7:47am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am

Well Garth says. . .

Will

Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Oct 9, 2014 - 7:56am
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm

Ted,

Think you got me mixed up with someone else...I've never thought the Prescott photos were retouched [:-happy-:].

And, as all of us who've spent time in the tropics around boats know, that sun usually fades anything it beats directly down on...

P.S.

As for the PTSIG thing, I don't do Facebook.

Posted By: Drew Cook | Posted on: Oct 9, 2014 - 1:55pm
Total Posts: 1306 | Joined: Oct 19, 2006 - 10:44am

Drew;
OOPS! Sorry, I changed it.[:-good-:]
Take care,
TED[:-good-:]
P.S. I don't do facebook either.

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Oct 9, 2014 - 6:45pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

Some interesting PT threads on FB.

Will

Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Oct 9, 2014 - 9:50pm
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm

I think you guys are misunderstanding my questioning. I've no doubts about the color, I just wanted to be sure I'm posting the original images. I may have saved some from another post somewhere. I have the exact same PT 61 image with 2 different tints... obviously someone was playing with the colors.

Yes Will, Frank posts some nice PT images there for one example. But I think you need to create an account to see FB pages...

Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Oct 10, 2014 - 4:10am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am

Even with the original photos in pristine condition, it would be a bit tricky determining exactly what color these boats were. The photos are more than half a century old. Cyan and yellow fade more quickly than other dyes typically, so in theory it might be more blue... or more green.

What I'd really like is some idea what base paints they used to mix these colors, or at least what base colors they had available to them.

Posted By: zeusbheld | Posted on: Oct 13, 2014 - 4:43am
Total Posts: 61 | Joined: Aug 12, 2014 - 9:54pm

Jeff,

I know what you're saying. I've got two of the same Prescott photo of the 61 with the crew on the foredeck saved to my Pictures file, and one is brighter, (or lighter) than the other...

Posted By: Drew Cook | Posted on: Oct 13, 2014 - 2:10pm
Total Posts: 1306 | Joined: Oct 19, 2006 - 10:44am

Time for Frank to go out in his garage and open those two cans of blue and green paint that Ken Prescott gave him. . .

Will

Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Oct 13, 2014 - 2:56pm
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm

I guess for our build we are going to try, 4 parts gray, 4 parts white, and one part blue for the 61 boat. Of course Stan always test's these first, and I am usually there to say Yes or No, so we shall see when the time comes. I try not to get to anal over colors because your never going to be dead on, as long as you are close, those that view the boats just really don't care, so no sense knocking yourself out trying to figure it out, I mean come on boys, no two boats were alike, and yes they faded, we already know that. When the time comes for painting we will see how it turns out................Will I tried the cans and I got red, go figure.

Posted By: Frank Andruss | Posted on: Oct 13, 2014 - 6:36pm
Total Posts: 3964 | Joined: Feb 9, 2007 - 11:41am

The photos faded, too, not just the boats. My understanding is that good ol' silver halide photos tend to fade diffeirentially (some colors more than others) so it's never going to be 100 percent accurate.

Still, I would be delighted to know the formula right down to the chemical compositions of the pigments. I'm just ridiculously anal, can't help it.

Posted By: zeusbheld | Posted on: Oct 18, 2014 - 8:08am
Total Posts: 61 | Joined: Aug 12, 2014 - 9:54pm