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ť Forum Category: PT Boats of WWII
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ť Forum Name: PT Boats - General
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ť Topic: Early Elco 80'--Which Boat to Build?
http://www.ptboatforum.com/cgi-bin/MB2/netboardr.cgi?cid=101&fid=102&tid=3635

Hello all, I'm about to begin building a 1/72 Elco 80' from the Revell kit. My plan is to make it very detailed but also radio control. I've not built a model in decades but I am confident that this build will be successful.

Currently I'm reading volumes upon volumes of material on PTs, both from books and websites. I've got some books coming (it takes a while, as I live in Bangkok, Thailand).

My preference is to build an early-war boat in the Solomons. I'd initially ruled out the 109 but I hear the Kennedy figure in the kit actually looks a little bit like him, so I may go that route. I'm flexible, though.

I got the White Ensign photo etch kit with it, and a White Ensign Bofors 40mm (on eBay).

This won't be my last PT build, and I might even build more from this kit, but ideally I want to build an early 80', even if I end up building it late war configuration.

So, on to question #1: which boat should I build? I notice there are PT veterans, and people who know PT veterans on here, if someone would like to see me build their boat I'd enjoy that (especially an early war boat in the Solomons, but I'm flexible).

question #2: is it possible to use the 40mm Bofors and keep the Mk 18 torpedo tubes? Every photo I've seen so far has the roll-off racks but I'm just starting my research.

question #3: any PT boat veterans living in Thailand? I'd like to buy you a drink (or twelve) and I'd be very keen on building the boat you served on (if it wasn't an Elco 80, I'll be building more after this, including at some point scratch-building a 77' Elco).

PS, NOTE TO FELLOW MODELLERS: the White Ensign PE for the Revell kit seems to be available again on their website.

Posted By: zeusbheld | Posted on: Aug 12, 2014 - 10:20pm
Total Posts: 61 | Joined: Aug 12, 2014 - 9:54pm

Hi,
If you intend to go with the 40mm, you probably need the roll off racks. They are also available from WEM, code PE7221 and you get 2X Mk13 torpedoes with each set.

Best Regards,
Stu.

Posted By: Stuart Hurley | Posted on: Aug 13, 2014 - 4:28am
Total Posts: 255 | Joined: Mar 19, 2013 - 3:32am

Sounds like you are in for quite a fun project. However I'm not to sure about your plan to make her radio control in 1/72 scale. I don't see how it would be possible to install all the needed electrinic equipment and keep it light enough to remain afloat even if you were able to find, lets say a Park Flyer R/C system small and light enough. Then the water conditions would become critial. The slighest swell could take he under, even in a back yard pool. Maybe you should think about an Italeria 1/35 Elco boat. Even at that much larger scale, it's still quite small but I have seen a few of these done on You-Tube with fairly good results. Keep us posted.

Posted By: Roy Forbes | Posted on: Aug 13, 2014 - 8:09pm
Total Posts: 371 | Joined: Sep 5, 2012 - 4:57pm

The R/C option is a bit ambitious, but do-able using micro-mini electronics, like you'd use for indoor/tiny park flyers. By using RC aircraft electronics the boat should be light enough. My main concern, however, is that the plastic model by itself will already be too heavy to have a realistically shallow draft. if that turns out to be the case then I'll probably have a go at vacu-forming or using the hull as a template for a fiberglass hull.

Eventually I'll build in a bigger scale but I've also bought a Flower class corvette, an S-boat and will be getting a sub (probably Gato class) in 1/72. I like constant scale. I will enjoy seeing how an 80' elco will look next to a Dauntless... and the Millennium Falcon, absurd as it sounds (the Dauntless and the Millennium Falcon will *not* be RC).

I've seen build logs for RC Revell S-boat, but it's a bit longer and deeper draft. There will be a way, though.

As for the bofors, I'll probably build an early boat and either put it on e-bay or save it for a future build.

Posted By: zeusbheld | Posted on: Aug 14, 2014 - 5:36am
Total Posts: 61 | Joined: Aug 12, 2014 - 9:54pm

PS water conditions tend to be very, very placid in the little lakes near my house so I'm not too worried about that. I'll do a build log that will include taking her to sea.

Posted By: zeusbheld | Posted on: Aug 14, 2014 - 5:39am
Total Posts: 61 | Joined: Aug 12, 2014 - 9:54pm

Hey, I'm picturing a drone based Millennium Falcon!

John Sullivan was on the 107, Pat Rogers the 154, and Jack Duncan the 103. They seem like really decent men as do all the veterans that post here.

Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Aug 14, 2014 - 7:29am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am

Got the kit, and the PE. The White Ensign PE stuff is really gorgeous and will really improve the model. I'll probably leave the Bofors off and build an early-war boat because its' made of white metal and will likely be too heavy for a radio control model this small.

I did some tests in the bathtub and it'll be difficult to make it light enough to keep the correct waterline. I'm going to try thinning the hull and the deck a bit, and use small, lightweight RC mini aircraft components. One company, Dean's Marine, is packaging sets of components for small rc boats, stuff like this:

http://www.deansmarine.co.uk/shop/product_info.php/products_id/2864

I've got quite a ways to go, skills-wise, before I can make a drone-based Millennium Falcon. Possibly it could be done; vacuform it or build it out of foam, then figure out how to conceal the blades. Ducted fans could work, possibly, but they're kinda inefficient. Might have to get an engineer involved to have a shot at making it work...

Posted By: zeusbheld | Posted on: Aug 22, 2014 - 12:31am
Total Posts: 61 | Joined: Aug 12, 2014 - 9:54pm

Hi There, Just a suggestion. Why not model PT-157 nicknamed "aces n Eights'. This boat rescued JFK and crew almost a week following the PT-109 ramming, Pretty much the only major changes to this model would be a Mk-12 20mm mount in the forward turret and the change to the port side bridge armor. Bridge Carney the author of two publications concerning this greatly overlooked craft, PT-157 A scale Model Builders notebook and the Historical account of this craft "First-Up" chronicles of the PT-157. I've been running RC PT's for over 30 year's at 1/24th scale. I have no idea where you plan to run your 1/72nd scale model, but a 13 5/16" length model seems a bit vulnerable for the local ponds especially if a breeze should pick up.

Respectfully,

Wayne Traxel

Posted By: Wayne Traxel | Posted on: Aug 22, 2014 - 5:25pm
Total Posts: 248 | Joined: Oct 11, 2006 - 5:40am

The 157 is an interesting suggestion. it's a front-runner right now along with 103. 107 and 154 definitely still in play.

There's still a chance I may build 109. The tiny skipper does look a bit like Kennedy (haven't looked at him with the loupe yet though).

I'm also looking into RON 6 boats, but that Bridgeman Carney book about building the 157 looks very tempting; his build being based on interviews with crew members and all.

When I was a kid I really liked the 'zebra' adaptor scheme, so the Ron 10 boats are in play. My understanding is that they didn't see action in that paint scheme, but Higgins boats in the Mediterranean did. Is this true?

I found this guy, Christian Sheppard-Capurro, who makes 1/72 and 1/35 Higgins, Elco 77' Huckins, and a lot of other coastal craft hulls: http://www.mtbhulls.co.uk/the-hulls

This pushes the Higgins and the 77' further up the queue. I may use his hull rather than Revell's to reduce weight, but the Revelll hull is really impressive when you consider how old the kit is.

I'll post a pic of the 'lakes' near my house. They're smooth as glass unless there's a flat out storm. It's hardly ever very windy here. Main hazards will be a) sudden heavy rains could swamp the boat (2 months a year it's a real concern) and b) a large monitor lizard might decide she looks like food. I should be able to outrun the lizard, and I want to make a gasket to seal the deck, but a heavy rain could bend or break small details (it really pours).

I'll post a pic of one of the lakes when I get a chance.

That said the purpose of making this boat RC is practice with challenging RC conversions and to run it next to bigger boats (when my RC kung fu is strong enough I'm going to build a static-diving Gato class sub; the pt could then rendezvous to transfer downed pilots).

Posted By: zeusbheld | Posted on: Aug 29, 2014 - 5:12pm
Total Posts: 61 | Joined: Aug 12, 2014 - 9:54pm

PT-174's also interesting. I'd get to use the bofors--it came out of the factory with a bofors on the foredeck--and adaptor scheme.

My understanding is that the 174 had the bofors removed before shipping, but the skipper, knowing the foredeck was reinforced, put one back on.

Also, 174 was one of the boats that shipped in the adaptor 'zebra stripes.' I'm lukewarm on the idea of a straight up adaptor scheme because as far as I know these boats were repainted before action, and also it works too well (and might give me a headache to look at).

That said, 174's now rising in the list: I could use the bofors, torpedo tubes, and paint over the adaptor scheme with a green wash so that it shows through a bit. It would be a lot of work but might look interesting, and I've read that the adaptor scheme showed through a bit on some boats.

Posted By: zeusbheld | Posted on: Aug 29, 2014 - 7:08pm
Total Posts: 61 | Joined: Aug 12, 2014 - 9:54pm

Zeusbheld;
RON 10 did go into combat with the adapter scheme, there are several photos of them "up the line" in the Solomons. Once in the Solomons, the white lines were repainted a light green. There are photos of a PT 174 model in this version of the scheme. Then around Dec 43- Jan 44 the boats were repainted Navy Green.
Take care,
TED

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Aug 30, 2014 - 5:32am
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

Thanks, Ted.

I'm leaning toward a Ron 10 boat now. Not sure about 174 because the Bofors is about 30 grams. I suspect most of it's the base though, and I could make a lighter base.

Next big question is, when did they start using aircraft torpedoes on roll off racks? I am now considering using them, if they're light enough. I could then use the Revell/White Ensign torpedo tubes on a 77' Elco.

Posted By: zeusbheld | Posted on: Sep 8, 2014 - 8:14am
Total Posts: 61 | Joined: Aug 12, 2014 - 9:54pm

Ahoy there.

Sounds like you have a fun project.

Your S-Boot has a lot more hull volume than does the 1/72 scale PT-109 hull.

Weight was the enemy of the real PT boats and it's also the ene,my of small scale PT boats.

A 1/72 scale hull other than one of actual wood doesn't have a heck of a flotation margin for metal parts which including photo-etch can add a lot of weight in a hurry.

Fortunately the radio-control industry has made huge strides forward with brushless motors and integrated circuit boards with the servo and speed control combined on them. The light -weight lithium batteries are a good choice but charge them out of the model.

That old Revell kit brings a lot of fun to a lot of small scale boat model builders.

Good luck, please keep us posted on the progress and cheers from PeterTareBuilder2

"Give me a fast boat for we want to get out of harm's way too."

Posted By: PeterTareBuilder2 | Posted on: Sep 8, 2014 - 1:34pm
Total Posts: 204 | Joined: Dec 8, 2012 - 6:03pm

Brief update: playing with the scales again, if I remake the base of the Bofors in something lighter than white metal I can get the gun's weight down to about 15 g maybe less. it'll be front-heavy if i build 174, but I can't imagine 174 was anything but front-heavy. I do need it to get up on the step. it's got to plane.

I don't know how much the plastic Hasegawa antitank gun that the 103 (and 109) had mounted will weigh but styrene isn't all that light, I'm finding out.

The Schnellboot will be pretty easy... except that I've decided I must try to have it replicate the 'Lurssen effect': it must, through the turning out of the outboard rudders, ride lower in the water, faster, and with a somewhat smalller wake.

The PT, on the other hand, must get up on the step and create a foaming frothing mess behind it.

174 is currently in first place due to the adaptor scheme and bofors.

Ahoy there.

To add the stuff you want to, especially the 40 mm gun, will make it a lot harder to get such a small model to plane. You'll need a brushless motor and lithium battery in order to keep the weight down. Then again, some guys modify servos so that the servo motor powers a prop shaft and the speed control is the servo itself. Search 'servo hack' to see how it's done.

You'll also need to figure out how long tou want the boat to run for. Lithium batteries might be light but the longer the run time wanted the bigger and/or heavier the battery is.

One thing you might want to do is research the components you plan to use to run the model. Get the weights for them and then add that amount of weight plus the weight of the upper deck structures and weapons to the interior of the hull and then tape the deck in place and see how low it sits in a tub of water.

Good luck and cheers from Peter

"Give me a fast boat for we want to get out of harm's way too."

Posted By: PeterTareBuilder2 | Posted on: Sep 11, 2014 - 12:13am
Total Posts: 204 | Joined: Dec 8, 2012 - 6:03pm

considering the weight, I don't think I can do the bofors, and thus can't do the 174. 103 and 109 are just about ruled out because of the antitank gun on the bow (weight).

I'm still very much considering a RON 10 boat however, as I think the adaptor scheme, will look interesting on the water. Especially in green and black, as the ponds near me are greenish (from algae). The good thing about the algae in the water is that it makes it more opaque, which is great for small-scale boats.

The PE is quite heavy too, almost 40 grams, but I think it will be a LOT lighter when installed as the actual pieces are small and thin, and most of the sheets are the sprue (or whatever it's called with PE).

I've found plenty of light RC components, and even motors, by reading threads on rc forums by people building tiny airplanes.

The schnellboot should be a little easier as it's a larger, deeper-draft boat, but I'm sure I will find ways to make that more difficult, too.

Posted By: zeusbheld | Posted on: Sep 15, 2014 - 7:15pm
Total Posts: 61 | Joined: Aug 12, 2014 - 9:54pm

Did you use Testor Elco PT boat 1:160 scale?

I know very little about this kit, but it looks like its been around a while. At 1:160 scale it is really small. Testor as a brand I'd say inhabits the mid to low end of the market.

The 1:160 scale falls within the range of the popular N scale for model railroads. It may seem far fetched, but if you are building dioramas you may find vehicles, accessories and figures to convert from model railroad products.

Texas Marine Services

Posted By: Todd Kyle | Posted on: Sep 19, 2014 - 11:24pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

I think I've got my tentative short list:

PT 168, Ron 10 1943, light green adaptor scheme (good photos, probably pre-Pacific)

PT 170, Ron 10, 1943, light green adaptor scheme (good photos, pre-Pacific)

PT 122 Ron 6, 1942 lt grey factory paint (or dark grey?)

PT 117 Ron 6, 1942 med grey factory paint (photo of bombed out boat sure doesn't look dark grey)

PT 115 Ron 6, 1942 med grey (no photos)

Ron 5 boats (103, 107 and 109) still in play, but if it's one of these she'd probably be grey, and without the antitank gun (weathered, in the Pacific)

Also I'll most likely go with Dean's Marine Minigear

http://www.deansmarine.co.uk/shop/product_info.php/cPath/5_29/products_id/2726] (22 grams)

or Microgear (12 grams) electronics.

http://www.deansmarine.co.uk/shop/product_info.php/cPath/5_29/products_id/2771

I'll likely build this one before the Schnellboot as Dean's Marine have already built little 1/72 Vospers and 1/35 Pibbers with these electronics, so there's less to figure out (less to buy too, as I already have the PE set).

If weight still appears to be an issue after I play in the bathtub some more, I'll have Christian (the MTB Hulls guy) build me a one-ply hull which should save about 10 to 15 grams over the kit hull and deck. He said it would likely be a bit fragile, but I don't plan on recreating the 109's last night so it should be fine.

I definitely plan to build at least one 77 footer on one of his hulls after this, probably from one of the Ron 3s.

MTB Hulls:
http://www.mtbhulls.co.uk/the-hulls

PS sorry I wasn't able to make the links behave like links; I tried the way it works on other forums and it doesn't work here so i'll figure it out next time i try to post a link.

Posted By: zeusbheld | Posted on: Sep 20, 2014 - 5:35am
Total Posts: 61 | Joined: Aug 12, 2014 - 9:54pm

Mr. Kyle,

I wasn't aware there *was* a Testors 1/160 scale kit. I'm using the Revell 1/72 kit. I lean very far toward constant scale and there's not much out there in 1/160 so it's of little interest to me even if the kit's immaculate.

Posted By: zeusbheld | Posted on: Sep 20, 2014 - 7:48am
Total Posts: 61 | Joined: Aug 12, 2014 - 9:54pm

I've set aside the big decision about the little boat for a bit as I wait for more books to arrive.

Right now the front runner is PT-122, on the night of December 23, 1942, when it sank a sub (credited as I-22). This boat would be grey, She was completed in August and transferred directly to the Pacific. I think 4 months is enough time to cause substantial weathering, but I'll have to do some experiments (Thailand is conveniently tropical and humid, i'll paint some wood grey and leave it in the sun).

PT-168 and PT-170 are tied for 2nd, I'd like to read a Ron 10 unit history before I decide anything.

If I build PT-122, I'll eventually build a 'zebra boat' but my next PT will be an Elco 77'. If I decide to build in 1/35, the Italeri as 168 or 170 might be the first.

There are still other boats in play though and I won't make a decision until I've read all the books I intend to read (including books about individual boats).

I'm also a bit distracted by the rest of my 'fleet' trickling in one ship at a time. My Revell 1/72 Flower-class corvette arrived, brilliantly packed to save me money on shipping by a very generous e-Bayer. This will most likely be the FFS Aconit, which sank 2 u-boats in one very remarkable action.

I also made a deal (e-Bay again!) for a Revell 1/72 Gato, a package with reference books and aftermarket PE stuff. This will most likely be built as the Barb on its 9th war patrol in 1944. An early-war version of the Greenling is still possible, but I've been a big fan of Fluckey's own account of the Barb's exploits since I was a kid.

First boats built will be the Elco 80, the Flower and the Schnellboot. I'm starting them all at once and the first one finished will be the one that gets stuck the fewest times (unforeseen technical problems and, of course, money will be factors). I expect the Elco will be finished first, as I've sourced a lot of the 'innards'.

The Prop Shop
http://www.prop-shop.co.uk/products.php?cat=ww2-pattern

has bronze props only slightly larger than the scale ones on the Elco. I'd like to build her with all 3 props, but that depends on the feasibility of running 2 or 3 motors. Most of the RC conversions I've seen are 1 motor with a big (ugly) plastic or nylon prop. I ain't goin' out like that.

After all that the 1/72 Elco 77 footer will be built after the Flower but before the Gato (RC subs are complicated!).

Posted By: zeusbheld | Posted on: Sep 27, 2014 - 4:22am
Total Posts: 61 | Joined: Aug 12, 2014 - 9:54pm

Zues;
RON 10 boats are not easy to model. one could BS-it but to be really accurate you need photos of port, starboard, and transom/stern view, because every boat was painted different. No two boats even resembled each other, except a bunch of lines were painted on all of them. Another word of caution: some photos out there, a stern view with boat moving away from camera, and a port side stern quarter photo are labeled PT 170...THEY ARE NOT! They are actually PT 139, which was the original test boat for the scheme(look at the smoke generator, it is the same model used on 77' ELCO boats.
Take care,
TED
You mentioned two boats in particulate here are the pics I have for them:
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Ted%20Walther/PT-168.jpg[/image]
PT 168 bow on

[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Ted%20Walther/PT-170-02.jpg[/image]
PT 170 Starboard bow
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Ted%20Walther/PT-170-01.jpg[/image]
PT 170 Port side

[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Ted%20Walther/PT170RON10.jpg[/image]
PT 170 Port Side stern

I know how much Frank really loves this camo, I really would like to post all 20 pictures I have, but this will have to do for now.:0)

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Sep 27, 2014 - 6:54pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

Here's an invaluable resource for anyone determined to build a 1/72 radio controlled PT:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1547828

It's a thread intended for micro aircraft and lists the weight of just about every micro component I've run across so far.

This will enable me (and anyone else) to use gram weights and a scale to determine how much they can cram into their model.

Having mailed Kenny at Gator's Masks, I'm now highly likely to do a Ron 10 boat (his mask looks like 170 so that's the new front runner).

Posted By: zeusbheld | Posted on: Sep 27, 2014 - 7:35pm
Total Posts: 61 | Joined: Aug 12, 2014 - 9:54pm

THANKS Ted.

Even though this adaptor scheme stuff is now giving the headache it gave me a headache, it's great information.

170's particularly confusing. The starboard side photo that Navsource lists as the 170 looks NOTHING like the starboard side photo you posted. Is it 139? 170 is now a front runner, given that there are photos from all three angles.

Another major headache: I've heard and read from several people that the white stripes of Ron 10 boats were painted over with light green in the field. I'll be digging further into this but I doubt there's much info out there.

Then there's the decks. I've read conflicting reports of whether the deck was 'deck blue,' 'deck green,' or dark grey, and whether it varied from boat to boat.

The staggering amount of homework left to do before I build a Ron 10 boat nudges me toward 122 as my first boat, since it was most likely grey, but also makes me determined to build a Ron 10 boat at some point (apologies in advance to Mr. Andruss for the headache it will give him).

I think maybe it's worth making an Adaptor Scheme Resource thread and starting it with your 20 photos. Maybe you could just add them to this thread:

http://www.ptboatforum.com/cgi-bin/MB2/netboardr.cgi?fid=102&cid=101&tid=1272&st=0&nd=10&pg=1&sc=20

but that thread digressed into having more to do with the incident of the dud torpedo that hit 167.

Posted By: zeusbheld | Posted on: Sep 27, 2014 - 8:14pm
Total Posts: 61 | Joined: Aug 12, 2014 - 9:54pm

Zues;
Yes the photo of STBD side of "PT 170" on NAVSOURCE is PT 139. Look on you tube, Dick put a video of PT 139 motoring around near the ELCO plant, you get to see every angle of her. Another give away is PT 139 only has her number painted on the 20mm pedestal and it blends in so good I can really only see it in still photos taken of her. All the RON 10 boats sported numbers, usually on the original gray, which was squared off and taped over when painted.
The decks were Deck gray in the states. "deck Green" at Rendova.
To add to the confusion, the areas that appear shaded are actually light blue gray stripes with black. The white was painted over with a greenish yellow concoction when they arrived in the Solomons.
Here is a really good example of what is required:
http://www.militarymodelling.com/news/article/pt-174/4116

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Sep 27, 2014 - 10:42pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

that narrows the questions down to what is "deck green" according to Rendova... and what is "light green."

I'm going to try to find out what the standard base pigments were for the Navy base colours at the time. I don't think the green can be too dark because in black and white photos it looks light even in the shadows.

I suspect they used something oddball like zinc chromate primer as a key ingredient, given that it would have been available. This would mix to a light enough, yellow enough green to read as light as the stripes in the photos of the 167 with the big hole in it.

Hard to say given the likely lighting conditions. the good news, I suppose is that living in Thailand I ought to be able to do fairly plausible camera tests as the lighting conditions ought to be similar. <>

Posted By: zeusbheld | Posted on: Sep 28, 2014 - 8:20am
Total Posts: 61 | Joined: Aug 12, 2014 - 9:54pm

Zues;
I don't know if you want to use strictly modeling paints, I don't. I am current using a combination of sprays, for deck green I am currently using Rustoleum Camouflage spray paints, 1919 deep forest green and I weather it with Model Master FS 34102 Medium Green.
Just a suggestion.
Take care,
TED

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Sep 28, 2014 - 2:07pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

I'm not necessarily committed to modeling paints but it's a lot easier to get Gunze Sangyo's Mr. Hobby paints or Tamiya paints around here than Rustoleum.

I may use art paints if I can identify the pigments in the greens. I think (hope?) acrylics will hold up well enough to the occasional zip around the lake. I'm getting the Snyder and Short color chips to help with mixing colors but I think with field colors i'll probably have to be guessing and winging it.

Ted, you mentioned you have about 20 adaptor scheme photos. Any boats besides 170 showing all 3 views?

Posted By: zeusbheld | Posted on: Sep 28, 2014 - 4:01pm
Total Posts: 61 | Joined: Aug 12, 2014 - 9:54pm

Zeus;
Yes, I have several of PT 139, PT 169 AND PT 171.
Take care,
TED

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Sep 28, 2014 - 9:20pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

Ted and Z,
I think you should consider this Adapter Scheme! Pretty cool huh? It makes me dizzy just imagining a boat painted like this! Hah Hah! This is especially for Frank to look at. Jerry

[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Jerry%20G%20PT658/Green-Pulsating-Optical-Illusion.png[/image]

Jerry Gilmartin
PT658 Crewman
Portland OR

Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Sep 28, 2014 - 9:47pm
Total Posts: 1473 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm

Jerry, that's a very interesting scheme, and I think I've got enough views. Only two problems:

1) The pink looks like Mountbatten pink but what's that green?

2) What boat is it? The camouflage works so well I can't even tell if it's an Elco or Higgins...

Posted By: zeusbheld | Posted on: Sep 29, 2014 - 3:39am
Total Posts: 61 | Joined: Aug 12, 2014 - 9:54pm

Ted,

I'd like to see the 169 and 171 pics...

But really, Jerry's boat has to be the front runner.

Posted By: zeusbheld | Posted on: Sep 29, 2014 - 5:25am
Total Posts: 61 | Joined: Aug 12, 2014 - 9:54pm

Jerry;
If you think that is bad, have you seen the "proposed" camo scheme that was supposed to resemble shallow water with coral tumps?

Zeus;
here is PT 169 and PT 171;
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Ted%20Walther/PT169RON10DEC1942PORTBOWON.jpg[/image]
PT169 RON10 DEC1942 PORT BOW ON

[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Ted%20Walther/PT-169-02.jpg[/image]
PT 169 RON 10 DEC 1942 BOW ON

[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Ted%20Walther/PT-169-01.jpg[/image]
PT 169 RON 10 DEC 1942 PORT SIDE

[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Ted%20Walther/PT169RON10DEC1942PORTSTERNQUARTER.jpg[/image]
/PT169 RON10 DEC1942 PORT STERN QUARTER

[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Ted%20Walther/PT169RON10DEC1942STBDBOW.jpg[/image]
PT169 RON10 DEC1942 STBD BOW

[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Ted%20Walther/PT169Zebra.jpg[/image]
PT 169 RON 10 DEC 1942 STBD side

[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Ted%20Walther/PT-171-00.jpg[/image]
PT 171 RON 10 DEC 1942 PORT STERN QUARTER

[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Ted%20Walther/USSATAOOSKAAO66RON10MARCH19431.jpg[/image]

USS ATAOOSKA AO66 RON10 MARCH1943. Take your pick, according to NOB Norfolk War Diary for 14 MAR 1943, this ship got underway at 0820 with PT 165, PT 167(SCR-517 RADAR, FWD PORT SIDE), PT 171, PT 174, enroute to Naval Station Balboa, C.Z. PT171 Port side to camera.

[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Ted%20Walther/USSATASCOSAAO6614MARCH19432.jpg[/image]
USS ATASCOSAA O66 14 MARCH 1943 RON 10
DIV onboard. PT 174 Port bow to camera.

[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Ted%20Walther/USSATASCOSAAO6614MARCH19434.jpg[/image]
USS ATASCOSA AO66 14 MARCH 1943 #4 PT 174(aft), PT 171(fwd) to camera.

[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Ted%20Walther/USSATASCOSAAO6614MARCH19433.jpg[/image]
USS ATASCOSA AO66 14MARCH 1943 #3. PT 165(aft port) and PT 174 (aft stbd) and PT 171(fwd stbd) and PT 167(fwd port)

[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Ted%20Walther/PT170andPT171-1.jpg[/image]
PT 167 (SCR-517A RADAR outboard stbd side to camera) AND PT 171(inboard ) ON BOARD USS ATASCOSA AO66 14MARCH 1943

Take care,
TED

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Sep 29, 2014 - 6:00am
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

Brilliant stuff, Ted! THANKS!

Posted By: zeusbheld | Posted on: Oct 1, 2014 - 4:25am
Total Posts: 61 | Joined: Aug 12, 2014 - 9:54pm

Thanks from me too Ted, the mind boggles... and now I have a headache. [:-cheers-:]

Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Oct 1, 2014 - 4:57am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am

Good stuff, Ted. Thanks.

Will

Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Oct 1, 2014 - 5:48pm
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm

This build (see link) has increased my enthusiasm for building a Plain Old Green or Grey boat. I'm aware it may not be the precise green one would want to paint an early-war PT, but...

Wow that's some nice weathering.

I've never seen a real PT but I've seen a lot of paint fade, chalk and weather in the tropical sun and what that guy did looks good. Only thing is, weathering-wise, there'd be a LOT more fading on the horizontal surfaces than verticals. I have a table that spent 2 months outdoors that'll testify to that.

http://www.thecombatworkshop.com/2013/08/revell-172-pt-boat-part-ii.html

Posted By: zeusbheld | Posted on: Oct 12, 2014 - 1:54am
Total Posts: 61 | Joined: Aug 12, 2014 - 9:54pm

Wow! that boat looks rough, I think CDR Ritchie, would have that crew painting that boat real fast!
Take care,
TED

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Oct 12, 2014 - 7:57pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

I have to be honest, those zebra PT's just make me want to hurl.
Dave

David Waples

Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Oct 12, 2014 - 9:43pm
Total Posts: 1679 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm

Wow! that boat looks rough, I think CDR Ritchie, would have that crew painting that boat real fast!

Looking at anecdotes of how often boats were painted (and photos) i don't think it would get that far, but to my eye it's the right kind of weathering. That to me looks like about a year in tropical sun; the effect I'd go for based on what I've read is 3 months, 6 at most.

These are coastal boats, and went home to their base every night; it's not like the corvettes where they spent little time in port. That said I'd Imagine the Guadalcanal boats were in pretty rough shape, with some boats (PT-59 for example) doing double shifts. So I think when I know what boat I'm doing, and what it's situation at the time was, then I'll have an idea of how much weathering to do.

Posted By: zeusbheld | Posted on: Oct 13, 2014 - 1:50am
Total Posts: 61 | Joined: Aug 12, 2014 - 9:54pm

Dave;
How could you say that about Frank's favorite! Seriously, when you look at the camo schemes that were developed but not used, you really have to wonder what goofballs approved this. Some of the ones not used would have achieved the same desired results and would been more effective than this, while being less conspicuous during all times of day and night. I have never had the opportunity to talk with a RON 10 Plankowner about this, I wonder what they thought of this camo? I know how guys from the other RON's thought about it, I have heard and read their opinions.
Take care,
TED

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Oct 13, 2014 - 7:08am
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

OH LORD and then you have to go and post several photos of this horrible looking thing, Ted your trying to make me cry looking at that mess..........

Posted By: Frank Andruss | Posted on: Oct 13, 2014 - 9:39am
Total Posts: 3964 | Joined: Feb 9, 2007 - 11:41am

Those suckers DID look ugly in their black & white stripes.

They looked a lot better -- and more warlike -- when they overpainted the white stripes with green.

Posted By: Drew Cook | Posted on: Oct 14, 2014 - 9:42am
Total Posts: 1306 | Joined: Oct 19, 2006 - 10:44am

Absolutely...

Will

Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Oct 14, 2014 - 11:18am
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm

I don't remember if we ever answered the "was the deck striped" question well but there's some nice deck shots there.

Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Oct 14, 2014 - 11:36am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am

I wonder what shade of green was used for painting over the white stripes? heh heh

Will

Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Oct 14, 2014 - 1:05pm
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm

I have it on good authority that they used Ken's Formula 61.

Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Oct 14, 2014 - 1:27pm
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am

White stripes or green stripes....

David Waples

Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Oct 14, 2014 - 8:02pm
Total Posts: 1679 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm

Hey Dave;
That's the right color!![:-grin-:]
Take care,
TED

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Oct 15, 2014 - 3:56pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

Hey Dave;
That's the right color!![:-grin-:]

But do we have a formula for it?

Posted By: zeusbheld | Posted on: Oct 15, 2014 - 9:59pm
Total Posts: 61 | Joined: Aug 12, 2014 - 9:54pm

Equal parts beer and split pea soup I'd say. Looks like a scene from "The Exorcist"...

Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Oct 16, 2014 - 4:03am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am

Equal parts beer and split pea soup I'd say. Looks like a scene from "The Exorcist"...

Those aren't exactly the most durable pigments in the world. When they fade they'll look like a faded yellow highlighter... and smell bad for a week or two.

Speaking of colors here's something that may be of interest for modelers and other excruciatingly anal retentive types: I have found one source that describes the formula of Copperoyd. There are a lot of ways to make copper-based anti fouling paint but according to this passage from Hell on Keels

"Painting the hulls took between three and four hours. The coating was pure copper in a lacquer solution."

I find this interesting for a couple of reasons. First and foremost, given that it takes three to four hours, the hulls could be repainted fairly often. This would make a difference for a fast boat, as barnacles and other critters would slow the boat down. Thus I think it's fair to assume that the boats at bigger bases were generally well maintained. Photos I've seen seem to support the notion that PT models shouldn't be weathered as heavily as, say, submarines (let alone rustbuckets like Flower-class corvettes).

That said, most of what I've read implies that early war boats (Philippines, Guadalcanal) were pretty beat up, and supplies were few and far between.

From this I'd conclude that boats from Fall 1943 onward were in pretty good shape, and models should have minimal weathering. Boats at Guadalcanal could be weathered heavily. However, anyone who knows better feel free to correct that assumption!

I've got a lot of reading to do. I bought a lot of books lately, including a couple by people who post here:
Hell on Keels, by Rick Desloge (obviously)
PT 109, by Robert Donovan,
PT-105, by Dick Keresey
Into the Dark Water, by John Domagalski,
They Were Expendable, by William White,
At Close Quarters, by Robert Bulkley,
Building the PT Boats, and PT Boats Behind the Scenes, by Frank Andruss,
US Patrol Torpedo Boats in World War II, by T. Garth Connelly,
American PT Boats in World War II, by Victor Chun,
Allied Coastal Forces vol II, by John Lambert and Al Ross,
Osprey New Vanguard 148,
Squadron Signal in Action 4007 and 4034,
US Small Combatants, by Norman Friedman,

and one more, which I really hated:
Epic Voyage, by Michael Englemann. What really put me off wasn't the lack of depth to the research or the convoluted narrative, it was the hatchet job he did on David Levy. I get the impression that he read Levy's book and developed an irrational, strong dislike for Levy.

I'll be getting a few more, when I can including
Fast Boats and Fast Times, by David Levy,
A PT Skipper in the South Pacific, by Ken Prescott,'
First Up, by Bridgeman Carney,
Long Were the Nights, by Hugh Cave,
Sea Wolf, by William Breuer,
An Honorable Profession, by Bruce Bachman,
Tales of Tulagi, by John Searles,
United States PT Boats in Action, by Frank Johnson,
United States Mosquito Fleet, by Bob Ferrell,
Sea Hawks, by Edgar Hoagland,
Devil Boats, by William Breuer,

Let me know if I missed anything essential on my shopping list (or if there's anything I'm better off skipping).

My plan is to read the narratives first, decide what boats to build, and then read the technical descriptions/photo books.

I've still not decided what boat to build first, but it's clear that I'll have to build quite a few PTs. I'll build this first RC one and a 77 footer in 1/72, then decide whether to build a bigger boat next or more 1/72 boats...

but none of that will happen until I wade through my reading list.

Posted By: zeusbheld | Posted on: Oct 21, 2014 - 1:52am
Total Posts: 61 | Joined: Aug 12, 2014 - 9:54pm

@ Zeus: Give us your email and I'll send you a copy of my book/vid list.

Will

Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Oct 21, 2014 - 3:47pm
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm

Zeus;
Quite a nice selection of PT reading. I agree with your synopsis of Epic Voyage,I have already found inaccuracies in what I read off the amazon site. The most obvious is the title of the book :Epic Voyage: The Greatest PT Boat Story Never Told: PT 59 and her two Skippers. great title, but why does he go on to write of PT 59's 3 Skippers??? Actually, Charles Mills, David Levy, Jack Searles, JFK and Joe Atkinson, were ALL Skippers of PT 59, what happened to writing about the other two? I guess they were not interesting enough, Is this the new trend in historical writing: " Its so long ago nobody cares".? The book also mentions Mark Wertz was in the Philippines with Bulkeley's RON . Wertz was never assigned to Bulkeley's RON 3 in the Philippines, he was in RON 2(pre-war Exec on PT 14), RON 1(PT 28 at Pearl Harbor), RON 2 (PT 37 and 47), then Exec and CO of MTBTRU.
Dave Levy, chose to relate his own insecurities at the time in his autobiography, it help makes his story more realistic and easier for the reader to relate, he didn't have to, that was his decision , His feelings were the same as every other guy his age and in his position in the Squadron. There were several guys who were in the group who didn't cut it, and they were off the boats.. He was at Torpedo school at Newport first, and they asked for volunteers, In addition to torpedo systems which he was already learning, he was Syracuse 41 and a member of the football team and ski team...an athlete. However, part of the selection process of Melville, was to seek the best. You were not just Joe Schmucatelli , and said you wanted to be in PT's, even though you volunteered you were recruited by experienced PT officers and were selected. Another thing mentioned, was that the author felt Levy never heard Bulkeley's statement "Every PT mission is a suicide mission" Bilge! Everyone heard everything Bulkeley and Kelly had to say, good and bad, they WERE the poster boys for PT Boat recruiting and they both made numerous recruiting trips to Ivy League and big sports universities and colleges. So did George Cox and Hank Brantingham, there was nothing to hide in this program, it was all right up front. They told you exactly how it was.
Yes Dave Levy was not a "member of the club", but he was selected, so they saw what they were looking for or he would not have been there. He had the right stuff, and proved it time and time again, not only in RON 3(2) but later in RON 23, where he ended the war as RON 23 Executive Officer, achieving the rank of LCDR.
The author is accurate in stating "maybe the Ivy Leaguers knew each other previously" many of them did, Why do you think they formed the Tulagi Yacht Club and the Princeton Club of Tulagi? Some the officers at Tulagi knew each other since they were young teenagers, but others didn't. Many Officers at Tulagi were in PT's from the beginning and were in the 3 Pre-War squadrons, such as Wertz, the Searles Brothers, Westholm, Taylor, Montgomery, Clagett, etc.
As a new member of a team, you shut up, observe, and learn. You find your own way to fit in, so you focus on your strengths to overcome personal insecurities, tactical experience or any other shortfalls . This is exactly what he did, and he was damn good at it and proud of it. He later used these same acquired skills in his Law practice and his successful entrepreneur business dealings and he was extremely successful as were most of the original Tulagi gang. Levy was also one of the proud gentlemen standing there in New Orleans at the last Peter Tare reunion.
Also he mentions a "ghost writer". Gerald Meehl, is definitely not a ghost writer, he is an accomplished World War ll historian and author of several books, and who actually has been to every major Pacific battlefield and photographed all of them(get his books, "Pacific Legacy: Image and Memory from World War ll in the Pacific and Pacific War Stories: In the Words of Those Who Survived") his photography is wonderful. If that was not enough, he is a noted scientist who is senior scientist at the National Atmospheric Research Center. He also a 2007 Nobel Prize Laureate for climate change studies, which also happened to be an of Dave Levy, since he was an avid outdoorsman, Skier, and environmentalist, who has fished the world over. Dave Levy picked Gerald Meehl, because he new him, originally from Aspen, Colorado. Where Levy had his second "vacation" home for 50+ years. Dave is also quoted in Mr. Meehl's other books.
Another thing most people don't know, most of the photos taken at Tulagi, were taken by Dave "Hogan" Levy.
Take care,
TED
P.S. someone posted a spot on review for this book on Amazon already.[:-cheers-:]

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Oct 21, 2014 - 5:55pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

@ Zeus: Give us your email and I'll send you a copy of my book/vid list.

Will

There; I finally figured out what "make email visible in posts" means. Please do send a copy of your list! (and anyone else is welcome to do the same).

Posted By: zeusbheld | Posted on: Oct 23, 2014 - 5:51am
Total Posts: 61 | Joined: Aug 12, 2014 - 9:54pm

Ted,

I'm now looking forward to getting Mr. Levy's book. The more I learn about this guy the more interesting he gets. I think my first 77' Elco's going to be the '59, around the time when Levy and Searles took turns taking her out.

Got to get going on this boat first though. To do that, I need to choose a boat... and to do THAT, I need to do more reading...

PS I definitely need to get Pacific Legacy. Being located in Southeast Asia means the flights to some of these sites are more reasonable. I gave up scuba diving a few years ago due to having badly injured my sinuses (I had a cold and wasn't aware of it, and went diving anyway). I think it's worth trying to get back into it. Most wrecks are in deep water but I'm sure there's plenty to see...

Posted By: zeusbheld | Posted on: Oct 23, 2014 - 5:56am
Total Posts: 61 | Joined: Aug 12, 2014 - 9:54pm

I've got Dave Levy's book, and I think he was honest in his thoughts and feelings, too.

You sure wouldn't have to have been Jewish to feel somewhat left out of a group of Ivy League, main-line WASP guys like a lot of the PT officers, if you weren't one yourself.

I remember transferring to a private, all-boys grade school populated by a lot of "rich" kids -- their houses, and those of their relatives, looked a lot like the "Stately Wayne Manor" in the old "Batman" TV show, and those kids were, well...different. More than a few of them were arrogant and superior-acting. Not like the regular suburban kids I'd known and lived around.

Remember Ernest Hemingway's cynical retort to F. Scott Fitgerald's breathless exclamation about these people ("The rich are very different from you and I!"). "Yeah," Ernie said. "They have more money."

Posted By: Drew Cook | Posted on: Oct 24, 2014 - 12:01pm
Total Posts: 1306 | Joined: Oct 19, 2006 - 10:44am

Don't forget: MTBSTC - Motor Torpedo Boat Squadron Training Center by Charles B. Jones

For your book collection.

Charlie

Posted By: 29navy | Posted on: Oct 24, 2014 - 3:22pm
Total Posts: 600 | Joined: Dec 28, 2006 - 3:02pm

Drew;
Well said.
Take care,
TED

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Oct 24, 2014 - 3:34pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

Beautiful stuff for the reading list guys, thanks! I'm glad I figured the email thingy out (duh). I'm reading Keresey, Donovan and Bulkley now; It's been well worth it and led to not only suggestions but even opportunities to buy some of the books i covet.

I started reading "Into the Dark Water" but a couple of things put me off: Firstly, I read somewhere that PT does *not* mean "Patrol Torpedo" as Donovan claims. It is just a hull number sort of the way Flower-class corvettes were numbered K-### by the Royal Navy. Please if you know one way or the other set me straight on this.

My main problem, though, is this... As someone from 'upstate' (not far from where Levy went to school) who lived in The City for 13 years, I saw a mention of Kill Van Kull, a strait that separates New Jersey from STANTON Island... STANTON ISLAND?!? Mr. Domagalski lost the trust of this New Yorker on that one. I bet most people from all over have heard of STATEN Island. I'm sure after I cry myself to sleep a few times I'll get over this disappointment... However, if anything in Domagalski conflicts with Donovan, I'd bet on Donovan...

As for why I started this thread right now I've almost decided that my first PT is Keresey's 105, even though I haven't gotten as far in the book as him even getting to Melville yet. Here's why:

Keresey hails from Montclair. I dated a girl from there for quite a while (she was a nut job but I like that town a lot anyway). Keresey went to Columbia law school. I went to grad school there (although, nothing near so rigorous as law school). So, I feel like I 'get' him.

The thing that sealed the deal though was this passage. Now, Keresey was hot stuff. An achiever. if he were my peer I'd be more intimidated than Levy apparently admitted he was when he was surrounded by these guys.

But here's how Keresey describes his first meeting with David Payne, one of these Ivy League types who have been selected for PTs:

"He was from Yale. This background had left a patina of reserve, refinement and arrogance---shared only by those from Harvard.

"I, on the other hand, was a product of parochial and public schools, the seven years of education at Dartmouth, L'Ecole Libre des Sciences Politiques, and Columbia Law School and had produced only a thin veneer of refinement, no reserve to speak of, and had merely abetted an arrogance inherited from my Irish forebears off the Hoboken docks."

That passage impressed me. Here's a man so far beyond me who has felt stuff I have. I haven't read Levy yet (book's on its way soon!) but it also made me appreciate Levy more for his candor (not to mention his achievements). I will also have to build a PT-59.

Posted By: zeusbheld | Posted on: Nov 8, 2014 - 6:46pm
Total Posts: 61 | Joined: Aug 12, 2014 - 9:54pm

Zeus:
Good for you!! Speaking as a guy who grew up on Long Island, I know exactly where youre coming from.
When I was a kid, my Grandmother's sister, Zia Amelia, lived on Staten Island. Even though I realize its just a typo, The only "Stanton Island" that I know of is on my son's Grand Theft Auto III video game!:0)
Years ago, I wrote and received letters from CAPT. Robert R. Green USN (Ret), PTC RON 1(PTC-5), RON 2, liaison to RN for 70 ELCO lend lease turnover, ELCO SHIPSUP, MTBTC, who went on his last patrol several years ago. Anyway, when he was ELCO SHIPSUP, he performed ALL acceptance trials for every ELCO 77' boat. If you don't know about this, part of the acceptance requirements is: X number of hours at various speeds(20 hours at 20 knots, 20 at 30 knots, 20 at 40 knots etc. This is just example, the actual is probably in one of the manuals on Jeff's PT103.com site)for an assigned total number of hours. In one of his extremely detailed letters he described taking the boats on acceptance runs in a "race track' fashion Newark Bay, Kill Van Kull, Ellis Island, Statue of Liberty(Liberty Island), then turn to port and head up the Hudson to Fort Lee. When he was required to, he would turn at Liberty Island and head between Governors Island and Battery Park, head up through Hells Gate and out into Long Island Sound to run distance speed runs, or go to Fife's in Glen Head or Melville. Some open water runs he performed were to Sandy Hook and back. He wrote he did most of his long runs on Long Island Sound because one of the acceptance requirements for each boat were several four hour runs at 40 knots over a measured course/distance. I can just picture him passing Stepping Stones and the Execution Rocks and opening that boat up wide open!
Two things that always had me identify with PT BOAT guys is that so many of them were from the tri-state area(speaking like a true New Yorker!;0) and I also grew up on the water, fishing on both Great South Bay and Long Island Sound. I could read about so many, and then just picture in my mind where they lived and were from, (just as an example: Henry Stillwell Stilly Taylor, (a Tulagi original) lived right down the street from my Uncle Joe (RADM Joseph J. Peck, USNR(RET) in Oyster Bay and more than likely enjoyed several cocktail parties, Uncle Joe always had. At 1600 on the dot, the green Martini cocktail pennant would be run up the yardarm! He and my Dad had two made at Whitestone, while on Naval Reserve duty, I still have Dads. I have been in Vanderbilts Neighborhood, and his stable areas at Belmont. I had an Aunt who lived in Leonia, NJ(were the Searles Brothers were from), My Uncle George lived near Fifes in Glen Head, and my cousin Paul(now 70+) still runs his own boatyard in Amityville, which his Dad started in the early 1940s out of his house! All these identifying factors and more, helped make these guys MORE real to me, they were not just names in a book, they were people who I either knew, or knew where they lived. Their history became so real to me I followed into their footsteps in the Navy as a NSW SWCC for 12 years, I have been so lucky as I have been in all these areas, taken my boat from Virginia to NYC, through Hells Gate and up to Newport and Melville (yes I had my DET make a special little detour to Melville before we left heading home). Later that year we even hosted RON 12 officers and men (led by Bill Costello and Sam Goddess) at our unit and took them ALL for rides on our MKVSOC, and they gave us copies of their 1943 RON 12 commissioning program from the New York City Yacht Club.
Yes helping modelers on this board is one thing we do here, but really it is guys like you, who we need more of here, guys who come here looking for assistance, but decide to immerse themselves so much into this rich history, that identifying factors are triggered and it becomes real to them. And to paraphrase you: They get it.
Take care,
TED

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Nov 9, 2014 - 9:19am
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

Ted, it's settled. I've not finished reading PT-105 yet, but that will be the first boat I build. I got to the part about his bluffing his way through the launch of the PT-103, with all the brass looking on, and then navigating to the Brooklyn Navy Yard by asking tugboat skippers for directions due to the fact that many items including the charts had already been 'transferred to other parts of the Navy'.

As you say it's also a Northeast/New York thing. When you describe Capt. Green taking the boats on acceptance trials, I can see it vividly in my mind's eye because I know the geography of the area.

Can't wait to get my hands on Levy's book, 59'll probably be my next build.

Making these little boats RC would be easy enough... except that I insist on having wing engines rather than one engine. I'd like to have all three, but I fear the weight. Need the wing engines though as many PT skippers describe maneuvering the boats into docks, and I'm trying for scale (or scale-ish looking) performance. So maintaining a shallow enough draft on a boat with at least two little engines in 1/72 will be ... interesting.

I myself didn't spend a lot of time on the sea (grew up in the Finger Lakes; Seneca's pretty docile and the boats weren't too fast). I don't even actually like having my teeth rattled and spine shook on speedboats at sea.

That said, Keresey's path into PTs as he describes it is something I can really relate to and probably would have tried to follow a similar path had I been around at that time (in spite of knowing I don't like speedboats). I dropped out of engineering school and transferred to art school, so I'd have had enough math but I wasn't much of an athlete: lousy basketballer, not many other sports. I could swim, though, and was a half-decent middle distance runner so I might've got in.

I speculate on these matters not because I wish i was there; I don't. As I said I don't particularly like speed boats. However, the whole reason I got into modeling--even as a kid, and especially now that I'm getting back into it as an adult--is to immerse myself in the history as accurately and in as much detail as I can.

That's why the little PT boat needs to at least have two engines with separate speed controllers. Models can tell stories, I want them to be as close to the truth as I can make them given what I know and am able to find out.

Posted By: zeusbheld | Posted on: Dec 13, 2014 - 8:07pm
Total Posts: 61 | Joined: Aug 12, 2014 - 9:54pm