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» Forum Name: PT Boats - General
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» Topic:
Torpedo Firings in Narragansett Bay June-Sept 45
http://www.ptboatforum.com/cgi-bin/MB2/netboardr.cgi?cid=101&fid=102&tid=3624
All,
With Jerry's mentioning the Mark 13 Mod 2 variant in his newly posted PT 658 YouTube tour video, I started my usual internet search and found the Mark 13 manual on the Historical Naval Ships Collection with a 1942 date. This has me thinking about the info I found, within the PT 100 deck logs just two week ago, when down at the National Archives (thanks to all who assisted me on this great adventure).
Ron 4 PT 100 fired just over a hundred torpedoes (I assume Mark 13 variants) between mid June 45 until mid Sep 45. They would pick up either two and fire, or pick up two- fire then pick up another two and fire during the day. Unlike other entries which would specify picking up students for training, there was no mention of this, so I believe these were directed at collecting information for the Torpedo Facility in RI, or testing some new modifications. Entries would sometimes include "exercise" with the torpedo firing, and at least one deck entry included "experimental" in the actual entry. PT 99 also fired eighteen torpedoes on different days, with both boats occasionally conducting these firings on weekends, indicating to me that there were probably many other boats involved in this daily massive shoot period. Since I had limited time, and my focus was on the Huckins PTs (so I did not have a chance to check out the other non-Huckins Ron 4 boat log entries), does anyone have any thoughts, info or hunches as to why these launches were taking place, or knowledge of other boats involved? I can only assume it was related to the invasion of Japan and maybe coming up with data on how best to attack small suicide craft, but that's just a WAG. They might have been working on a Mod 3? Just another WAG. Any pointers would be appreciated! I'm sure there is some extensive report on all this somewhere. I have to say that the PT 100 crew were probably Aces in the torpedo launching category by the end of the war.
Thanks!
Andy
Posted By: Andy Small | Posted on: Aug 1, 2014 - 8:13am
Total Posts: 262 | Joined: Nov 20, 2013 - 9:04pm
Andy, I E Mailed you, as I was having trouble putting my response here on the message board. I tried a few times, but no luck. I am now able to leave a message, must have been my Computer. Please note that what I sent to you is just an educated guess, as I have no concrete evidence.
Posted By: Frank Andruss | Posted on: Aug 1, 2014 - 11:11am
Total Posts: 3964 | Joined: Feb 9, 2007 - 11:41am
Thanks Frank, just received your response. I have a couple instances where another Huckins was used as a "target" boat during some of the exercises. I agree that the best guess is the shallow water and shallow targets, and I think add fast moving and anything else the US thought the Japanese would throw out there during their homeland defense. May have even been how to do this with waves of landing craft hitting the beach, again just a WAG, but a very difficult scenario. Maybe someone somewhere will have an important lead.
I kind of fell out of my chair at the archives when I started finding page after page of Torp-Ex log entries for PT 100 at the end of the war and in the end I had counted 101 actual launches, in the 3 month period, with a couple where they couldn't complete the exercise due to weather or radar failure (interesting). These were on top of the boat's many previous firings that went all the way back to its Ron 14 roots. Must have been great to be a part of the PT 100 crew in 45, having just returned from being a co-star in the movie as "PT-31".
My work on the Huckins PT Boat model kit (and book) continues and with my archives trip, I now believe I have the various configurations of the boat nailed down including a few surprises. The one area I still need help is the special underwater muffler system that was built into PT 257. Unfortunately I haven't found any photos (lots of documentation though), so I have no idea what this system even looked like.
Cheers,
Andy
Posted By: Andy Small | Posted on: Aug 1, 2014 - 12:03pm
Total Posts: 262 | Joined: Nov 20, 2013 - 9:04pm
I went through all of my Huckins Factory photo's and could not find any evidence of their muffler system on the boats. I am glad you got my E Mail, I was having trouble with my Computer, which has now been fixed. As I mentioned to you, PT-100 had to have been a test bed for what ever the Navy was working on at that time. Again my guess would have been shallow water testing.
Posted By: Frank Andruss | Posted on: Aug 2, 2014 - 2:14am
Total Posts: 3964 | Joined: Feb 9, 2007 - 11:41am
Hello, My name is John Sullvan. I'm trying to get some information about PT boats. I served in the Solomon Islands. Any help would be great and thank you.
Posted By: John Sullivan | Posted on: Aug 2, 2014 - 7:08am
Total Posts: 46 | Joined: Oct 11, 2006 - 6:57pm
Hi Frank, It wasn't a factory install but one added to PT 257 shortly after its arrival in Pearl in early 44.
Posted By: Andy Small | Posted on: Aug 2, 2014 - 9:44am
Total Posts: 262 | Joined: Nov 20, 2013 - 9:04pm
Andy that is what I was looking for in my Factory photos, which include a few photos of the boats in Hawaii, I think I may have sent these to you already.
Posted By: Frank Andruss | Posted on: Aug 2, 2014 - 5:04pm
Total Posts: 3964 | Joined: Feb 9, 2007 - 11:41am
Andy;
Your WAG might not be as far off the mark as you think. Shallow water testing makes sense for other reasons: Submarine nets and log booms. A MK Xlll torpedo can make a nice size hole in a sub net, and could easily take out two or three sections of a log boom. These were both used in harbors all over Japan. This makes me wonder if they were also testing a more sensitive contact exploder and or a more powerful charge.
Along this same line, John Akin, RON 1 PT 24 and 27, wrote me a response letter years ago. He stated that when RON 1(PT 20, 24, 27, 29, 30, and 42) returned to Pearl Harbor in Dec 1943, they were refitting the boats with MK 6 depth charges and were in redeployment work ups and were heading first to the Philippines(but they found no Japanese minefields in Philippines)and for further training.to prepare for the invasion of Japan. They were to be utilize to blow channels in the minefields outside Japanese Harbors. I guess for PT's the staging area was to be Okinawa(since RON 31 and 37 were already there) for Operation Downfall (Oct 1945), and follow on Operations Olympic(Nov 1, 1945) and Operation Coronet(Mar 1, 1946). If this had worked out I guess they would have transferred PT 62, 64, 65, and 66 to bring RON 1 back up to strength. RON 1 was the last original 77' squadron to be decommissioned in Feb 1945. However, this is just a SWAG(Super Wild A-- Guess) as it turned out they were just test and evaluation platforms. If boats were needed to do this, eventually, early 80' ELCO's and 78' Higgins probably would have been employed for this. Of course RON 26 was doing nothing in Hawaii, maybe they would have been used first. It would have been something, just reading the proposed plans for these operations is amazing(Ie; they intended to use 42 aircraft carriers, that would have been 3700+ Naval aircraft just on the carriers) and are worth reading, take this into consideration, and I believe there would have been a RON 55-60(12 boats each), which would have meant at least another 168 boats(in addition to every identified/proposed number) the last boat would have been numbered PT 952!!
Just something to think about....
Take care,
TED
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/PT24carringmines1944.jpg[/image]
PT24 RON 1 carrying mines1944 John wrote this is ENS Lawrence Zeebrugge,USNR but I can't find his name anywhere.
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/PT24carringMK6TypeCdepthchargesNOV1944.jpg[/image]
PT24 RON 1 carrying MK6 depth charges and larger MK 7 depth charges on stern NOV1944
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Aug 2, 2014 - 5:39pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
Thanks Frank, you were pretty thorough on sending me all your Huckins photos. I've been pretty thorough on my photo search and have found nothing in anything I've dug up from my Germantown visits, Fall River visit, or what has been sent me. Was hoping for a specific photo of the mod in the Archives PT 257 BuShips folder but No Joy. With the mod being mostly internal there wouldn't be much to see, but an aft dry dock view would be helpful to see how the exhaust stacks were relocated/modified.
Does anyone have info on the PT Boat tactics that were going to be employed during Operation Downfall? That might help in trying to figure out the intention of conducting so many Torp-EXs.
Posted By: Andy Small | Posted on: Aug 2, 2014 - 6:23pm
Total Posts: 262 | Joined: Nov 20, 2013 - 9:04pm
Thanks Ted,
Was distracted while typing my response to Frank and when I came back to the computer and sent my response, I then saw your post.
I was also thinking about the sub nets and the boom vessels. Also it's seems best to nail the suicide craft before they leave their bases.
Posted By: Andy Small | Posted on: Aug 2, 2014 - 6:47pm
Total Posts: 262 | Joined: Nov 20, 2013 - 9:04pm
Andy;
According to the RON 4 war diary for NOV 1944;
PT 315 was conducting torpedo firing tests with the Duvall Torpedo Director(Gordon F. Duvall, the same guy who had the patent on the torpedo rack).
PT 316 and PT 487 were conducting special torpedo experiments with the MK 9 exploder(which was a contact influence exploder) using training heads. The MK 9 exploder was used on MK 16 and MK 18 torpedoes. But apparently, they had Newport install the MK 9's in MK 13 torpedoes.
Take care,
TED
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Aug 2, 2014 - 9:27pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
Thanks Ted! Very interesting (and thanks for posting the photos!)
I guess an influence exploder would not only be good against ships, it could probably help a torpedo work against steel nets. Anything in the Diary for the summer of 45?
I've always wondered if they were able to successfully recovery all these torpedoes, or if there's a pile of these still sitting on the bottom in the Bay. I would have thought that with these numbers, many probably got away.
Guess the Mk 13-4 could carry the Mark 9 exploder. Date of Change 11 is interesting (Sep 45)
Posted By: Andy Small | Posted on: Aug 3, 2014 - 3:17am
Total Posts: 262 | Joined: Nov 20, 2013 - 9:04pm
Hi Ted and Andy,
I remember John Akin telling me about that Big 600 pound Mk7 Depth Charge experiment they conducted using PT24 and PT27 in Pearl Harbor. He told me they were testing them on minefields (that they themselves would set) just off the west coast of Oahu, and see if the extra big charges would clear a path in the minefields. He also mentioned this was in preparation for the landings at Iwo Jima, but he was fuzzy about the exact details. A nice side benefit of this testing, John told me was after the testing where several 600 pound charges of TNT exploded, there were literally hundreds of freshly killed or stunned fish floating up to the surface. The enterprising PT Boat crew would scoop up the bounty using nets (or whatever was handy) and take them to Pearl City to sell. The proceeds from the fish sales would go directly into the crews beer fund! The local residents of Pearl City formed big crowds at the gates to the PT Base at the old PH Yacht Club in order to get these fish. It was quite the popular test!
Also, Andy there is a wartime history of the Keyport Washington Naval Torpedo Station that you can read on their website. In it, they describe how when they would perform practice shots, they often lost several practice torpedoes from unknown reasons. When one particular individual kept returning these used practice shots for the reward money, the Navy followed him out to his place where they found a collection of lost practice torpedoes floating under his boathouse in the inlet! It seems that his property was right in the firing arc of the torpedoes from the test stand, and they often went much further than previously thought possible. Anyway the point is that they did indeed lose a lot of torpedoes and there are probably many stuck in the mud on the bottom somewhere in the vicinity. Pretty amazing when you think about it!
Jerry Gilmartin
PT658 Crewman
Portland OR
Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Aug 3, 2014 - 3:36am
Total Posts: 1473 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm
Jerry and Andy;
I second Jerry's recommendation as I ran across the Keyport records while researching the MK 9 exploder. Jerry back in the day as here on the east coast, when you bought a waterfront piece of property(as my parents did) your property line would frequently would go out into the water x number of feet or yards, this would be describe as "oyster rights" In our case it was 150 yards in front the shore/bank at low tide. This is probably the same story as the boathouse guy, so legally, the practice torpedoes were winding up on his property, so the Navy was legally obliged to compensate him.
Another, situation that this reminds me of is that of my Aunt Lil, her home "The Golden Eagle Landing" which is on Revell's Neck on the Manokin River, in Westover/Princess Anne, Md well in the 1970s to later 1980's, was on the approach track of Navy A6's, F4's and F'14's doing live practice bomb runs on Bloodsworth Island, MD.(On a clear day, it was nothing to see the Jets coming over the woods on the west end of her property and turn over the water)Well the house was built around 1904-1905(formerly known as the Judd Nelson Farm)or so and had ALOT of windows. Well on more than one occasion the windows were cracked or blown out by low flying jet jockeys. Well Aunt Lil had placed several calls to NAS Norfolk, NAS Oceana, and NOB Norfolk and just got the royal run around for several years, finally had enough and somehow(using my Dad's Name, all he said was "Well there goes my Navy retirement check...Thanks Lil"!)got the office phone number and called up ADM Harry D. Train ll, USN (ret) at the time CINCLANTFLEET. Well Aunt Lil was a very persuasive person when she wanted to be, and she talked to ADM Train for quite awhile that day asking him why "HIS" pilots always had to fly over her house and why so low, Navy pilots flew better in World War Two. Don't these boys today know how to fly? You know questions like that. The end result was the ADM told her, the Navy will replace all of her windows, he would speak to "his" pilots and if it ever happened again, the Navy will replace the windows again, Then he told her to mail the bill to him at CINCLANTFLEET. NOW that's NAVY for you!
Take care,
TED[:-laughing-:]
P.S. Andy, all of RON 4's Diary is on fold3.com
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Aug 3, 2014 - 12:11pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
Thanks for the pointer Ted. Ron 4 Diaries say these were just plain old student training launches, oh well.... A total of 198 during the 3 month period, so it looks like the Huckins accounted for 120 firings. Also, PT 315 was modified with a Mk 36 Torpedo Director and was conducting test firings at the same time.
PT 100 ended up sticking around a bit longer with Ron 4 and ended up as the squadron's last Huckins.
Posted By: Andy Small | Posted on: Aug 4, 2014 - 2:11am
Total Posts: 262 | Joined: Nov 20, 2013 - 9:04pm
It doesn't seem that the MTBSTC would fire that many dummy torpedoes for practice in training students at that time, unless as was mentioned you have something new for modification. Testing for replacements for the MK-13 happened late in the war, and if I am correct the boats still were using the MK-13 when the war ended. Wasn't the Mk-25 supposed to replace the Mk-13?
Posted By: Frank Andruss | Posted on: Aug 4, 2014 - 12:27pm
Total Posts: 3964 | Joined: Feb 9, 2007 - 11:41am
As Huckins is still around and appears to have most of their Boats Plans and mods tucked away, maybe if someone asked nicely they may be inclined to assist.
Just my two cents worth.
D.buck
Posted By: David Buck | Posted on: Aug 5, 2014 - 1:13am
Total Posts: 332 | Joined: May 4, 2008 - 2:59am
Re my last forgot to add re the Exhaust Mods, "oops"!
D.buck
Posted By: David Buck | Posted on: Aug 5, 2014 - 1:18am
Total Posts: 332 | Joined: May 4, 2008 - 2:59am
Pay dirt at NARA. Ron 4 was conducting a massive amount of shallow water firings of Mk13s for BuOrd (IRT Burod ltr dated 7 March 1945). Torpedoes and Mk 1 Mod 1 Racks performed uniformly excellent.
Posted By: Andy Small | Posted on: Oct 11, 2019 - 4:14pm
Total Posts: 262 | Joined: Nov 20, 2013 - 9:04pm
Awesome Andy!
It sounds like they were getting ready for the invasion of Japan, Many shallow water areas.
Take care,
TED
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Oct 15, 2019 - 7:05pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
I would be interested to know if there were any live torpedo firing test done in the waters off Newport, R.I.
I have found that the torpedo station there did arrange live firings, submarine, surface warship, and aircraft dropped, against Bald Porcupine Island, Bar Harbor, Maine.
I have not found any evidence that PT's were involved in live fire exercises there.
Jonathan
Posted By: JEno | Posted on: Oct 19, 2019 - 4:59pm
Total Posts: 73 | Joined: Oct 13, 2019 - 9:52am
