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» Forum Name: PT Boats - General
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» Topic: Higgin“s Boat in Argentina - Ushuaia January 2014
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Hi There

Recently I“ve visited Ushuaia an took some pics of a Higgins PT BOAT ( I remember I read about that in the forum)
I uploaded 21 pics , if I made it correctly you can see here :

[url]http://s1368.photobucket.com/user/gusgear/slideshow/[/url]

Hope you find the pics interesting.

You can find more information here :

[url]http://patrullerasargentinas.blogspot.com.ar/2011/08/dossier-fotografico-y-filmico-ara.html[/url]

Posted By: Gustavo Martinez | Posted on: Jan 12, 2014 - 4:22pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

Nice Gustavo, thank you for sharing those. I see she's got most of 2 - 40mms still mounted. Do you know of any plans for saving her?

Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Jan 12, 2014 - 4:34pm
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am

Thanks so much for sharing the photos. What a shame to see this boat out in the elements just rotting away. I hope plans will be made soon to do something with her, at least get the boat under a tarp, or shrink wrap it.

Posted By: Frank Andruss | Posted on: Jan 12, 2014 - 4:52pm
Total Posts: 3964 | Joined: Feb 9, 2007 - 11:41am

Gustavo;
Gracias por compartir estas fotos de la Patrulla Higgins Barco Torpedo. Estoy de acuerdo con Frank, ella se ve muy triste y sola.Es una lįstima!
y tener cuidado
TED

Gustavo;
Thank you for sharing these photos of the Higgins PT Boat.
I agree with Frank, she looks very sad and alone. What a shame!
Take care,
TED

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Jan 12, 2014 - 6:59pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

Hey Randy,
Is PT 305 still looking for some original bronze muffler castings? I know where some are! Jerry

Jerry Gilmartin
PT658 Crewman
Portland OR

Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Jan 12, 2014 - 7:39pm
Total Posts: 1473 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm

Hi Ted

If you slightly alter the terms you have used in Spanish you will get much better results on search engines. Rather than Patrulla, use "Patrullera", and for MTB it is better anyway to use "Lancha Torpedera".

Searching in other languages brings up many new and interesting results.

Regards,

Christian.

Posted By: cdsc123 | Posted on: Jan 13, 2014 - 1:09am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

Thank you all of you.

Yes it`s a shame to see it
I don“t know about plans to restore it.

In the my post I`ve included a link with information about "lanchas Patrulleras" in Argentina ( totally in Spanish)

Posted By: Gustavo Martinez | Posted on: Jan 13, 2014 - 2:42am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

Jerry,
Are you talking about the mufflers from this boat?

Bob

Posted By: Bob | Posted on: Jan 13, 2014 - 5:48am
Total Posts: 181 | Joined: Jun 8, 2010 - 6:21pm

I'm afraid they will not share the exhaust port.

--
National WWII Museum
PT-305 Restoration
Phone: 504-528-1944 Extension 375
http://www.nationalww2museum.org/see-hear/collections/artifacts/pt-305.html
Fb: PT-305 "USS Sudden Jerk"

Posted By: Higgins Fan | Posted on: Jan 13, 2014 - 7:41am
Total Posts: 128 | Joined: Aug 17, 2012 - 7:48pm

Hey Bob,
Yes, I spoke to Randy and he told me you guys already are in contact with them and got the negative response. Perhaps they may change their mind if given enough per$uasion. Who knows? but yes these are what I was referring to.

Jerry Gilmartin
PT658 Crewman
Portland OR

Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Jan 13, 2014 - 2:05pm
Total Posts: 1473 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm

I have been in discussions with base commander, he ran it up the flag pole. No joy. The next step is pursue rapid prototyping with 3d technology and pour one in China.

--
National WWII Museum
PT-305 Restoration
Phone: 504-528-1944 Extension 375
http://www.nationalww2museum.org/see-hear/collections/artifacts/pt-305.html
Fb: PT-305 "USS Sudden Jerk"

Posted By: Higgins Fan | Posted on: Jan 13, 2014 - 6:21pm
Total Posts: 128 | Joined: Aug 17, 2012 - 7:48pm

Made in China....Really!?
What happened to made in America??
Weren't the original exhausts, Lost wax castings in Bronze? I know the Navy used to have a foundry at the Navy Yard in Philadelphia, years ago. Contact Kim Nielsen at the Washington Navy Yard museum, I am sure he can point you in the right direction. If you can, why not have the Navy make it?

If this does not work, my old dentist and his son( I went to High School with David and Bob Turner) own and operate their own bronze art foundry on the Eastern Shore of Virginia. They mainly deal in wild life/ water fowl bronze sculpture, but they might be persuaded to do a special project.
http://www.turnersculpture.com

Dr Turner, who I have know since I was 13, Is a very patriotic American, and I think he might be interested in helping restore PT 305. especially if you tell him the boat used work out of Crisfield, Maryland, which is only an 45 min drive from his house.
Go into his website and check out their work, go to the tab "Public Commissions", I think you will see a few Americans you know here.

If not try:
American Bronze Foundry, Inc.
1650 East Lake Mary Boulevard
Sanford, Florida 32773
http://www.americanbronze.com

Let me know the outcome.
Take care,
TED

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Jan 15, 2014 - 4:43pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

Thank you Ted, I will follow up. My search since my previous China posting was out of frustration. There are three museum boats that will never see water and I hoped to trade for one. I have identified two foundries to pour the castings. One is in Maryland the other in California. We identified a pattern maker and his fee is $15k.

--
National WWII Museum
PT-305 Restoration
Phone: 504-528-1944 Extension 375
http://www.nationalww2museum.org/see-hear/collections/artifacts/pt-305.html
Fb: PT-305 "USS Sudden Jerk"

Posted By: Higgins Fan | Posted on: Jan 16, 2014 - 7:50am
Total Posts: 128 | Joined: Aug 17, 2012 - 7:48pm

I would contact Harland Avezzi, and see what he can do the piece for, he deals with as very good Foundry in Connecticut, worth a call............

Posted By: Frank Andruss | Posted on: Jan 16, 2014 - 10:58am
Total Posts: 3964 | Joined: Feb 9, 2007 - 11:41am

Wow!
I think the modeler in me is allowing me to lose perspective a little, it is JUST an exhaust port, Isn't it is just make a mold, and pour the material?
- Unfortunatly, this has of become a lost art, driving up labor and material costs.
- Fortunatly, this has of become a lost art, so quality assurance is higher and attention to detail is also higher.
As I said let me know the out come.
Take care,
TED

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Jan 16, 2014 - 11:28am
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

I contacted everyone you referred. Mr. Kim Nielsen was replased by Jim Brans (sp) and I reached out to the curator branch via email.

American Bronze and Turner Sculpture received my specs.

I'll update when I learn more.

--
National WWII Museum
PT-305 Restoration
Phone: 504-528-1944 Extension 375
http://www.nationalww2museum.org/see-hear/collections/artifacts/pt-305.html
Fb: PT-305 "USS Sudden Jerk"

Posted By: Higgins Fan | Posted on: Jan 16, 2014 - 1:35pm
Total Posts: 128 | Joined: Aug 17, 2012 - 7:48pm

I just sent a personal email to Dr Turner to get the wheels turning. complete with photos of the 658 and 305 exhaust ports. I also supplied him with contact info for both boats, if he needs more info and measurements, etc.
Take care,
TED

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Jan 16, 2014 - 3:54pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

Thank you

--
National WWII Museum
PT-305 Restoration
Phone: 504-528-1944 Extension 375

Posted By: Higgins Fan | Posted on: Jan 16, 2014 - 4:06pm
Total Posts: 128 | Joined: Aug 17, 2012 - 7:48pm

Hi, Higgins Fan

I have had a little to do with having different items made from moulds over the years and over here and one of the ways to cut down on costs is, if you have the part that you want moulded take it to the foundry were they will use it to make a sand box mould to pour into.

A very cheap way to go.

If the part is made using investment casting or lost wax casting as is known by some and you have the original part you have to find someone to copy that part in a way that you can make many moulds or only a few, if in this case you would only want a few parts then again the foundry should be able to put you onto someone that would be able to produce the primary mould, again at a reasonable cost.

You should not need to have someone reengineer something you already have.

Of course if you do not have a part or parts to take to the foundry as the drawings should be available one could be made up out of pine as an easy to work material,( I am sure that with the guys you have working on the 305 someone will be able to do this) most foundries would be able to work with this, allow a little bit for shrinkage say 10-15%.

Of course if there are no drawings for the particular exhaust that you are trying to produce the next thing you could do is ask Jerry to take a few photos and measure the items you need, I know that the 658 is a different series Boat but it would get the job done.

Hope this helps a little.

Best of luck so far she looks awesome.

Yours,

D.buck

Posted By: David Buck | Posted on: Jan 17, 2014 - 4:14am
Total Posts: 332 | Joined: May 4, 2008 - 2:59am

Hi Higgins Fan, I have been lurking on this site following your progress of PT-305 and have been very impressed at the quality workmanship the team has been demonstrating to restore this once combat veteran.

The drawing enclosed is a copy of an original factory plan for a Higgins muffler from the University of New Orleans website.

[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Wayne%20Traxel/HigginsMuffler-1.jpg[/image]

When I volunteered at the Kenosha Military Museum 2001 to 2006 I learned that trading was better than $$$$. Perhaps a set of Aluminum cast dummy mufflers could be traded for the actual mufflers currently on the non operating static Higgins PT's.

Wayne

Posted By: Wayne Traxel | Posted on: Jan 17, 2014 - 3:48pm
Total Posts: 248 | Joined: Oct 11, 2006 - 5:40am

We have definately tried all of the static displays, with no luck. We cant have a mold made from an existing unit because bronze shrinks 2%. So a pattern has to be made 2% larger.

Jerry, whatever happened to the 659's ports?

Bob

Ahoy there.

Could you not add a removable material to the existing part to make it the needed 2% larger?

Cheers

"Give me a fast boat for we want to get out of harm's way too."

Posted By: PeterTareBuilder2 | Posted on: Jan 19, 2014 - 8:38am
Total Posts: 204 | Joined: Dec 8, 2012 - 6:03pm

We will either have one made or make one ourselves at this point.

Bob

Posted By: Bob | Posted on: Jan 19, 2014 - 8:45am
Total Posts: 181 | Joined: Jun 8, 2010 - 6:21pm

Bob,
As far as I can recall, I never remember seeing the ports on the 659, even when it was first aquired from Pt Mugu back in 1989. I have seen photos from those days and I think they had already been removed by the time the boat was moved up to Oregon. I will check further. I also wonder what happened to the ports from the ex-PT657, which is now located in San Diego and called Malahini. It was repowered by two Yanmar Diesels and the ports are no longer installed. I will let you know if I can find out what happened to PT659 ports.
Take care, Jerry

Jerry Gilmartin
PT658 Crewman
Portland OR

Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Jan 19, 2014 - 11:00am
Total Posts: 1473 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm

Hi Jerry's right about no mufflers on PT659. A friend, Duane Fose took these photos of this Higgins at the National Guard base, Oregon in 1991.

[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/PT-659-2.jpg[/image]

[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/PT-6591990s-1-1.jpg[/image]

Wayne

Posted By: Wayne Traxel | Posted on: Jan 19, 2014 - 9:05pm
Total Posts: 248 | Joined: Oct 11, 2006 - 5:40am

Hi Bob,

This may be thinking a little left of centre but At Close Quarters lists PT200 as having been sunk off Newport R.I in 1944, just wondering if what's left of her is still there and if she might be at a depth that could be reached by divers?

As such she may already have been salvaged but you may be able to find that out by asking some of the local Dive Shops or Groups. There also may be someone on this board that is close to the area that may know a little more or could find out for you. Depth and location would be the main information needed.

Knowing the Diving groups that I go out with when approached with something like this are only to keen to help, you may find the same there.

Something to think about anyway.

As far as building the part 2% bigger for molding what seems to be the problem?

I know making parts that you do not have "one in your hands" to get the feel from is very hard and adding extra is in knowing where to add if you follow, do you have the drawing with ALL the measurements, if not and this is what is holding you up, then I would strongly suggest that Jerry and his hardworking team would assist in any way possible.

Hope some of this is helpfull

Yours,

D.buck

Posted By: David Buck | Posted on: Jan 21, 2014 - 4:07am
Total Posts: 332 | Joined: May 4, 2008 - 2:59am

Hey David,
From talking to the folks in New Orleans, I think they already have ot least one of the mufflers. They (Jerry Strahan I think?) obtained them from what was left of PT308 up in Delaware when the property owner had the boat bulldozed. They were able to recover 4 or 5 out of 6 total, but they never found the one that was probably buried 20 feet under the mud. The Navy even used their sidescan sonar to try and locate it. Anyway, my point is, they already have an example of what they need to cast. I am not sure I understand howe the casting process works, but that may not be insurmountable. I hope the PT Boat Gods smile upon the National WW2 Museum and supply them with one more muffler casting!
Jerry

Jerry Gilmartin
PT658 Crewman
Portland OR

Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Jan 21, 2014 - 10:45am
Total Posts: 1473 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm

PT-200 was raised shortly after she sunk. She was returned to MTBSTC and surveyed as a total loss.

Charlie

Posted By: 29navy | Posted on: Jan 21, 2014 - 11:45am
Total Posts: 600 | Joined: Dec 28, 2006 - 3:02pm

Wow!
David, Now that is really reaching, while I am thinking about it, there probably is a complete set still in Lambu Lambu cove.(PT 239). [:-veryhappy-:]

Jerry,
That part from PT 308 is probably still in the mud at Dagsboro, remembering Franklin Timmons place, from when I climbed aboard 308,aside from the 5 foot wide area of beach at low tide, it was straight up marsh mud! and from what I know about side scan, if you don't hit it, you don't find it. That's why a few shotguns, one M-16, and one M-60E are still in the Panama Canal.
Since nobody is coughing up an existing one, Casting a new one is the fastest solution for the 305 group, lets hope they get one soon.
Take care,
TED

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Jan 21, 2014 - 2:03pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

Hi Ted, Charlie, and Jerry,

Ted not such a reach as a certain Australian not so long ago visited many South Pacific WW11 aircraft wrecks left on the airfields built on the Islands and returned with enough of them to set himself up for life from the sale of about 70% of them, many to overseas buyers!

Many of these wrecks would have disappeared into the jungle and never have been seen again.

Charlie, shame that she is not there but this highlights what this board can do, thanks for letting us know (saves going looking but that could have been a board first?)

Jerry, Sooo "The plot thickens" If they have a few examples then that will make it a little easier to built a form for casting.

OK Casting,

To start you need two boxes of equal size that the top and bottom can be removed from,

With the top you take what you want to cast (Say a cylinder) build half of it onto one side of the box with a little extra size to allow for shrinkage, this is called a form

Then fit the top with the form facing into the box to the box with pins so that it can be lifted off but not move while on the box,

Place the box on a table with the form at the bottom and the open end on top,

Next you fill the box with sand that is a little damp and has a light release agent mixed through it making sure that it packs in around the form without any voids

Fill the box to the top and secure the bottom of the box so that the sand will not fall out,

Turn box over,

Carefully remove the form from the top of the box, you now have a box full of sand that has the shape of the item (in this case a cylinder ) in it. This is known as a half mould.

Repeat process for box two,

You now have two boxes that have our form in them .

At this point a funnel needs to be made through the sand from the outside of the box (which at this point has a cut out to allow this) to the cylinder at one end to allow the metal to enter and an extra hole (vent) to allow the air within the shape to escape during pouring, these can be made in one or both boxes.

Using pins on their faces to line the boxes up carefully place the two boxes together and secure then together so that they do not move.

This is now our mold.

Stand the boxes so that the funnel and the vent hole are at the top,

Calculate amount of metal required to fill our mold add say 20% as a fudge factor melt metal in furnace and pour into mold, put box aside and allow to cool

Separate boxes once cool and all being equal we should have a sand cast cylinder with a little metal funnel and possible a little metal from the vent hole, these need to be removed the outside of the cylinder cleaned and any machining preformed to archive our finished item.

If as in the case of the exhaust there is a hollow centre a plug in the shape required is made from a different type of sand( one that will hold the shape of the plug but will break down for easy removal after the metal has cooled) is then fitted into one half of the mold before the two are joined.

This saves us having to machine odd shapes that are hard to reach with machine tools and also cuts down on the amount of metal needed.

OK Jerry that's the down and dirty way of explaining casting from me hope it helps a little, it appears that Ted is thinking of a little dive trip in the South Pacific care to come along and bring your Boat I hear its a little chilly in the US at the moment, a little trip in 28-38C temps might not go astray.

Cheers from the S.P.

D.buck

Posted By: David Buck | Posted on: Jan 22, 2014 - 1:30am
Total Posts: 332 | Joined: May 4, 2008 - 2:59am

We have exhausted our efforts to acquire an artifact exhaust muffler. The Argentine Captain we spoke to went silent, and outreach to other known locations was unproductive. We searched Timmons Cove using an underwater archaeologist firm to discover there is way too much underwater debris to effect an id on anything.

Too bad we could not get one but In the future, someone in need of a Higgins portside muffler can contact the museum.

--
National WWII Museum
PT-305 Restoration
Phone: 504-528-1944 Extension 375

Posted By: Higgins Fan | Posted on: Jan 22, 2014 - 12:25pm
Total Posts: 128 | Joined: Aug 17, 2012 - 7:48pm

This would be perfect for rapid prototyping with a 3D printer, it would be easy to scale a 3D model up 2%. I don't know the current size limitations or cost but a plug could be made in sections if needed. I figure that's most of the 15K cost.

Check out the brass printed fire monitors Pat made: [url]http://members.boardhost.com/Warship/msg/1390353531.html[/url]. If you read this, very cool Pat! Any idea of the cost to get a plug printed for a Higgins muffler?

Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Jan 22, 2014 - 3:48pm
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am

The issue with metal shrinkage, and 2%, is it is just an estimated number of overall shrinkage. This muffler is roughly 2' x 4' and its a big part when considering 2% shrinkage. However, the shrinkage wouldn't be consistent throughout the part, because of size, shape, structure, vanes, spherical/cylindrical cross sections would all shrink at different rates. Whereas a square cube or flat bar would more than likely shrink more consistently on all of it edges.

I'm sure a big part of the 15K is the engineering drawings. The only Higgins drawing I'm aware of is the simple detail drawing not all of the casting and cast mold drawing. The hired firm would basically reverse engineer the piece (nowadays) in a 3D modeling program, like SolidWorks, then create multiple detailed manufacturing drawings for casting, and finish machining, so on and so on.

This is all a big task for a big part that is only a one-off - hard to impossible to recapture the cost.

I'll check with a source of mine for anymore guidance.

Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Jan 23, 2014 - 9:24am
Total Posts: 1417 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm

We are commissioning a Pattern Maker to build a form. We have a 3D digital model of it; going "Old School" so we can pour multiple times if needed. The cost of making a pattern is in the $10k range. Another $3.5 to pour a cast. $15k by the time it is machined.

--
National WWII Museum
PT-305 Restoration
Phone: 504-528-1944 Extension 375

Posted By: Higgins Fan | Posted on: Jan 23, 2014 - 10:14am
Total Posts: 128 | Joined: Aug 17, 2012 - 7:48pm

The saga continues.

--
National WWII Museum
PT-305 Restoration
Phone: 504-528-1944 Extension 375

Posted By: Higgins Fan | Posted on: Mar 24, 2014 - 2:14pm
Total Posts: 128 | Joined: Aug 17, 2012 - 7:48pm

We now have an exhaust muffler 50 percent complete. It is being fabricated in Louisiana, and the quality is great.

--
National WWII Museum
PT-305 Restoration
Phone: 504-528-1944 Extension 375

Posted By: Higgins Fan | Posted on: Oct 31, 2014 - 5:22pm
Total Posts: 128 | Joined: Aug 17, 2012 - 7:48pm

Glad to hear you guys found a foundry close by, sorry mine on the Eastern Shore did not pan out, keep charging forward!
Take care,
TED

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Nov 1, 2014 - 8:39am
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am