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» Forum Category: PT Boats of WWII
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» Forum Name: PT Boats - General
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» Topic:
PT 302 8/11/2013 update.
http://www.ptboatforum.com/cgi-bin/MB2/netboardr.cgi?cid=101&fid=102&tid=3308
Got some paint on, a few things fixed and the exhausts made.
Posted By: Bob Butler | Posted on: Aug 11, 2013 - 3:19pm
Total Posts: 192 | Joined: Mar 23, 2013 - 11:58am
The colors we choose for the decking is awesome. It would be great to see how the guys here feel about the color's but I must say I am very happy with what we choose to use. When you sand and use your Magic on it Bob, I have no doubt it will look like the real deal. I am happy with the fact that this boat had a white stripe on the bow and a red one on the stern. In talking with Arthur Frongello, who was on PT-302, he insist's the boat had a blue stripe as well. I have no evidence of this at all. Your thoughts guys?
Posted By: Frank Andruss | Posted on: Aug 11, 2013 - 5:49pm
Total Posts: 3964 | Joined: Feb 9, 2007 - 11:41am
We have plenty of time I just wanted to get the hull sealed. It would make sense Red, White and Blue. But I'll be darned if I can see it in this photo. Any body elese got magic eyes? I realize you guys were beautiful back than, but it would sure help out if you guys took some detail shots.
Posted By: Bob Butler | Posted on: Aug 11, 2013 - 6:09pm
Total Posts: 192 | Joined: Mar 23, 2013 - 11:58am
Sorry Bob, I don't see any Blue stripe anywhere on this photo. We know about the white and red stripe, but I'll be darned if I can spot any other stripe at all.................
Posted By: Frank Andruss | Posted on: Aug 11, 2013 - 9:08pm
Total Posts: 3964 | Joined: Feb 9, 2007 - 11:41am
Any chance Arthur could be remembering a blue radome stripe or a star-and-bar aircraft recognition signal painted on the deck? . . .Just a thought. . .
Will
Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Aug 11, 2013 - 9:35pm
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm
Bob;
Awesome work!
Take care,
TED
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Aug 12, 2013 - 4:31am
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
Will that is a good thought, although I don't spot and star or bar in any of the PT-302 photos that I have. Bob has a shot of the radar done that I sent to him, maybe he could post it here.
Posted By: Frank Andruss | Posted on: Aug 12, 2013 - 7:17am
Total Posts: 3964 | Joined: Feb 9, 2007 - 11:41am
The first photo here I think 302 is the fourth from the left and the dome appears dark, The 2nd the dome is dark but the more I look at it under the dome looks like a bag is tied off and it may be a bag over the dome.
Posted By: Bob Butler | Posted on: Aug 12, 2013 - 9:12am
Total Posts: 192 | Joined: Mar 23, 2013 - 11:58am
I'll take a wild-ass guess and say the first five boats L-R above are the 309,313,312,302,308. What do you guys think?
Will
Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Aug 12, 2013 - 6:09pm
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm
The boys from PT-305 Restoration are saying the hull should be Thayer Blue on our PT-302 project. I am not 100% sure of this. Anyone want to take a stab at colors.
Posted By: Frank Andruss | Posted on: Aug 13, 2013 - 8:00am
Total Posts: 3964 | Joined: Feb 9, 2007 - 11:41am
I think so too with what I have to go on. But as long as were at this point is Deck Blue the right coor for the deck?
Posted By: Bob Butler | Posted on: Aug 13, 2013 - 10:39am
Total Posts: 192 | Joined: Mar 23, 2013 - 11:58am
Deck Blue is what it calls for, and you have already painted PT-302 in this color. PT-305 boys are leaning towards Thayer Blue for the hull and everything else on deck. I sure would like to know so we can be 100% correct in the painting. I have been getting differing reports from some of our PT BOAT friends and Model Builders. I think we are correct in this color scheme though. Maybe not as blue as the model I showed you from Ron 29, but who knows. I get confused...............................
Posted By: Frank Andruss | Posted on: Aug 13, 2013 - 11:48am
Total Posts: 3964 | Joined: Feb 9, 2007 - 11:41am
Frank, I don't know about a Higgins boat being the nicest model in your collection. It just doesn't seem right.
Most excellent work Bob!
Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Aug 13, 2013 - 12:53pm
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am
Thanks, Jeff, I've had that love for Elco 80 's sense I built the Revell kit when it first came out around 50 years ago, wonder how much money Revell has made off those molds? I've got a great intrests in Higgins sense I've started this project. I've decided to donate my PT 109 as well. I just couldn't stand the though of donating a Higgins with out an Elco alongside. 'I'm going to try to get 302 painted blue today and will Post.
Posted By: Bob Butler | Posted on: Aug 13, 2013 - 1:35pm
Total Posts: 192 | Joined: Mar 23, 2013 - 11:58am
Frank . . .
I think the best choice for you is to select a scheme and color that best suits you. If anyone has spent any time at all looking through RON 22 boat photos they will clearly see a myriad of colors and schemes used at one point or another. I'm sure the 305 boys and the Museum are going to, or have already had a great, great debate as what final color they will paint this beautifully restore boat. The image below shows three partial RON 22 boats, and taken at the same time - yet all three have a different paint scheme. This can be seen throughout many, many photographs, showing boats at certain dates displaying a different color arrangement.
Its a tough choice guy and I wouldn't want to be the one to call it. Regardless what you pick, to most observers (of course not us) it won't look like any PT boat they've seen - its not green, its not gray - it's what . . . baby blue and dirty blue - wowww ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !
Frankie, what ever you choose, it will be just fine,
Dick . . . .
[Image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Webmaster/ron22PTboats-01.jpg[/Image]
[Image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Webmaster/ron22PTboats-02.jpg[/Image]
Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Aug 13, 2013 - 1:41pm
Total Posts: 1417 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm
It would seem they had an easter egg basket of boats. This is why I'm voting for the blue with a white strip.
Posted By: Bob Butler | Posted on: Aug 13, 2013 - 1:53pm
Total Posts: 192 | Joined: Mar 23, 2013 - 11:58am
I hear you Dick, the color choices have been bugging me for some time now, and you are right, I think Bob and I will go with that deck blue, and Thayer Blue, only toned down a bit with more Gray tones mixed with the blue. Bob is the painter here, and model builder so he is the one that is going to make her look great.
Jeff, I hear you, I am not a HIGGINS man, so having one in my Exhibit will be great. I am sure this will please Jerry. Bob has graciously donated his wonderful PT-109 to my exhibit as well. I am in my glory, and you guys know it. This PT-302 project has been fun, and my hopes is that Arthur Frongello will love her as much as I do...................
Posted By: Frank Andruss | Posted on: Aug 13, 2013 - 2:45pm
Total Posts: 3964 | Joined: Feb 9, 2007 - 11:41am
I'd be curious to know what source was referenced to determine that 305 was Thayer Blue (5-B). Same goes for 302. Consider the following two photos:
[image]http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i204/alross2/thayer_zpse9b522ad.jpg[/image]
RON29 boats (Thayer Blue)
[image]http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i204/alross2/302_zps14548063.jpg[/image]
PT302 at some point
We know for certain that the RON 29 boats had Thayer Blue (5-B) vertical surfaces. Swazey, an ELCO camoufleur, confirms this. Compare the shade of the RON 29 boats' hulls with that of PT 302's charthouse. The latter is considerably darker. The color photo of RON 22 boats earlier in this thread shows a dark neutral gray not unlike 5-D (a color officially discontinued by this date). All three photos appear to have been taken under similar atmospheric conditions (quite sunny), so the effect of light on the paint does not appear to contribute to the difference. Consequently, at least at this point in time, it does not appear that the 302 was in Thayer Blue.
Al Ross
Posted By: alross2 | Posted on: Aug 13, 2013 - 3:07pm
Total Posts: 993 | Joined: Oct 30, 2006 - 8:19pm
Frank, Bob and all the rest;
I am with Al on this one, RON 29 is the only documented, squadron to use Thayer Blue.
RON 22 used various shades on Gray, in their camo schemes. One boat PT 306, even was painted in Adapter Scheme, when RON 22 first got to MED.
RON 15 was the most different with multiple schemes used at the same time, including a PINK camo scheme.
In RON 22, most of the boats eventually had the decks painted deck blue, as can be seen in the posted photos. The critical Past film footage is what should be used on both the PT 302 model and PT 305 in NOLA.
Take care,
TED
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Aug 13, 2013 - 4:13pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
Let me say that the Thayer Blue color was started by myself. I threw that color out there when I notice the critical past color shots. One of the boats looked as thought it had a Blue-Gray mix, so I mentioned Thayer Blue, which I shouldn't have. I am now happy with the model being deck gray with gray tones for the deck and superstructure. With these colors I am confident with the boat being correct . Thanks Al for the photos, and Ted you are right, I agree as well. I just used that word Thayer Blue to describe the blue I thought I might be seeing in the color photo.
Posted By: Frank Andruss | Posted on: Aug 13, 2013 - 5:14pm
Total Posts: 3964 | Joined: Feb 9, 2007 - 11:41am
Frank,
Bad boy Frank! Never say Thayer unless you really mean it!
Ha! As usual Al is right!
Jerry
Jerry Gilmartin
Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Aug 13, 2013 - 8:04pm
Total Posts: 1473 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm
And this boat? PT-505 Ron 34 in the English Channel. It's a dead ringer for the Thayer Blue chip set I have. Although this boat is documented as Measure 13 (Haze Gray & Deck Blue)
Dave
David Waples
Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Aug 13, 2013 - 10:34pm
Total Posts: 1679 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm
I know Jerry, I was bad, but when you look at the radar mast of the color photo in this thread, that Higgins sure looks a bit blue to me. Not to worry, I have come to my senses and decided on the dark and light Gray tones for the boat.
Posted By: Frank Andruss | Posted on: Aug 14, 2013 - 5:51am
Total Posts: 3964 | Joined: Feb 9, 2007 - 11:41am
David;
You can see the difference here, This is a RON 29 boat, in Thayer Blue, maybe PT 562 "MOONBEAM McSWINE", off Bastia 1944. RON 34 boats were Measure 13.
Take care,
TED
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Ted%20Walther/RON29_red_sternmaybePT556.jpg[/image]
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Aug 14, 2013 - 8:56am
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
To give you a feel for the subtleties among the grays used by the USN, here are three scans of actual color chips prepared by John Snyder:
[image]http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i204/alross2/thayer_0001_zps4a7d4a1a.jpg[/image]
(purple-blues) (1941)
[image]http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i204/alross2/thayer_0002_zpsc662049f.jpg[/image]
neutral grays (1944)
[image]http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i204/alross2/thayer_0003_zpsbb26c37e.jpg[/image]
Thayer Blue
Colors appear much lighter on my screen than the actual chips, but show the relationships fairly well.
Al Ross
Posted By: alross2 | Posted on: Aug 14, 2013 - 2:23pm
Total Posts: 993 | Joined: Oct 30, 2006 - 8:19pm
Even color photos can present images that are open to interpretation. Consider the following:
[image]http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n27/David_Waples/PT-505%20Build/PT505RON348June1944afterhullrepairsonbeach-1.jpg[/image]
Dave's photo
[image]http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i204/alross2/14fb40ff-5444-4dd3-ae85-e420074d7157_zpsc04d2a8f.jpg[/image]
Same photo, lightened a couple clicks, slight adjustment to hue and saturation - different colors
Al Ross
Posted By: alross2 | Posted on: Aug 14, 2013 - 3:09pm
Total Posts: 993 | Joined: Oct 30, 2006 - 8:19pm
Can some one tell me what the box like structure is behind the radar mast on the 302 model? I did an earlier class Higgins from a set of Al's drawings and that item was not included, also it seems that it's location would preclude the option of folding the radar mast.
Larry
62 Bel-Air
260 Eagle EXP
79 Cole TR-2
Posted By: bubbletop409 | Posted on: Aug 15, 2013 - 9:57am
Total Posts: 164 | Joined: Apr 22, 2013 - 11:48pm
It's some sort of storage locker, There are 3 hings on the lids on each side. It sits on the engine room hatch.
Posted By: Bob Butler | Posted on: Aug 15, 2013 - 10:41am
Total Posts: 192 | Joined: Mar 23, 2013 - 11:58am
Did some painting this morning. The chart house a ways to go so that is still in primer. A few things to detail.
Posted By: Bob Butler | Posted on: Aug 15, 2013 - 1:12pm
Total Posts: 192 | Joined: Mar 23, 2013 - 11:58am
Bob;
She is really looking GREAT!
Take care,
TED
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Aug 15, 2013 - 3:09pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
I love it Bob, seeing a build come together is great.
Posted By: Frank Andruss | Posted on: Aug 15, 2013 - 4:08pm
Total Posts: 3964 | Joined: Feb 9, 2007 - 11:41am
That structure aft of the radar mast sits on top of the engine room hatch. It is the flack jacket locker. Nicknamed by some, "the dog house". This is seen on some of the Ron 22 boats.
Bob
Posted By: Bob | Posted on: Aug 15, 2013 - 5:33pm
Total Posts: 181 | Joined: Jun 8, 2010 - 6:21pm
Thanks Bob, that explains the photo Arthur sent to me of the guys wearing Flak Vests. I had always wondered where the heck they kept all those things.
Posted By: Frank Andruss | Posted on: Aug 15, 2013 - 7:28pm
Total Posts: 3964 | Joined: Feb 9, 2007 - 11:41am
