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ť Forum Name: PT Boats - General
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ť Topic: New photo of PT 109 under JFK comes to light
http://www.ptboatforum.com/cgi-bin/MB2/netboardr.cgi?cid=101&fid=102&tid=3214

OK guys, hold on to your hats --

I have just seen a new, previously unpublished and historically priceless photo of the seventh PT 103-class 80' Elco PT boat, yes the famous -- some would say infamous -- PT 109, while under the command of the future President of the United States, Lt. (j.g.) John F. Kennedy.

I've long thought there were probably other, previously unpublished photos of PT 109 that hadn't seen the light of day, and apparently, there are!

The incredible photo I'm talking about is in the newly-published book "Listening In - The Secret White House Recordings of John F. Kennedy," on page 279.

The photo, taken from a starboard obilque angle, shows an excellent, unobstructed, and FULL LENGTH shot of the 109 running at sea, with a low coastline in the back ground and another (moored?) PT or two to aft. The boat is in the exact same configuration seen in the well-known and badly damaged (black spots and smears) photo of the 109 at sea, in which all you can see is the forepart of the boat from the port .50-cal turret forward.

I can't tell, of course, if the photo was taken at Tulagi, in the Russells, or at Rendova.

Yep, this great full length photo shows the 109's depth charge on the foredeck, the high rear cockpit armor, the canvas-skirted port aft turret, her (unshielded) 20 mm gun, pointing straight up, and -- NO MAST (although because of this, I'm positive someone will loudly and repeatedly declare that "we can't be sure this is the 109").

The credit for this photo is listed in the book as "The John F. Kennedy Presidential Library and Museum, Boston." I've had a hunch for years that those folks at the JFK Library & Museum were sitting on previously unpublished photos of PT 109. Hunch confirmed.

I will try to scan this photo into my computer's Pictures file, and send it to Dick, who can then work his magic and post it here for all of us to see.

[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Drew%20Cook/NewPT109atseaphoto-01.jpg[/image]

The best I could do, wasn't much to work with. It was clearly a printed photo that was rescanned and printed again for the new publication. then you add another rescan and now its impossible to retrieve any pixel data. Dick . . . . .

Posted By: Drew Cook | Posted on: Jun 13, 2013 - 5:37pm
Total Posts: 1306 | Joined: Oct 19, 2006 - 10:44am

OUTSTANDING!!!!
I also agree with you, there has to be more photos out there somewhere. If not fro the Kennedy time frame, from the Westholm/Larson time frame, I feel there should be at least 2-3 other photos of the Northampton crew rescue, at least a closer photo. I am sure the must be some ELCO photos of her too. The photo of the carpenter guys working on the 80' cabin for instance, you can see written on the side in grease pencil/china marke the numbers 3360, that is for ELCO Hull Number 3360, which became Earl's beloved PT 108! Who knows, we shall see.
Take care,
TED

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Jun 14, 2013 - 8:36am
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

may i ask, what color?

Posted By: Bob Butler | Posted on: Jun 14, 2013 - 10:45am
Total Posts: 192 | Joined: Mar 23, 2013 - 11:58am

Drew,
Are these the ones? Jerry

[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Jerry%20Gilmartin/PT109moviepicc.jpg[/image]

[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Jerry%20Gilmartin/PT109moviestill.jpg[/image]

[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Jerry%20Gilmartin/PT109moviepicb.jpg[/image]

Jerry Gilmartin

Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Jun 14, 2013 - 11:14am
Total Posts: 1472 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm

STA ANNNNN!

Please build Frank a dio of the 109 at the dock. ;<)

Wow! Look at all those neat details. Bumpers. Note the rake of the gun tub guards.

Those are very interesting image.

Thanks for posting them.

Cheers from Peter

"Give me a fast boat for we want to get out of harm's way too."

Posted By: PeterTareBuilder2 | Posted on: Jun 14, 2013 - 12:17pm
Total Posts: 204 | Joined: Dec 8, 2012 - 6:03pm

I call BS!

Nice spot Drew.

Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Jun 14, 2013 - 12:46pm
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am

hi drew/ thank you so much.excellent researching.there must be,as you said, many more photos out there.
LOOKS LIKE TULAGI, not sure earl

earl richmond

Posted By: earl | Posted on: Jun 14, 2013 - 3:00pm
Total Posts: 197 | Joined: Oct 18, 2006 - 12:13pm

Thanks, Jeff, Ted, and Earl, and thanks to Dick for posting the photo.

The photo isn't the clearest, of course, but you can squint through the fuzz and see the overall configuration of the boat, confirming several details that have been discussed over the years, such as the depth charge (which looks very close to the edge of the deck), the lack of a mast, what I've always called the "high box" of the cockpit armor, the definite four torpedo tubes-setup, and the aft 20 mm gun without an armor shield.

Posted By: Drew Cook | Posted on: Jun 14, 2013 - 3:03pm
Total Posts: 1306 | Joined: Oct 19, 2006 - 10:44am

Jerry,
Why are you trying to confuse people! :-)
Dave

David Waples

Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Jun 14, 2013 - 5:43pm
Total Posts: 1679 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm

Drew;
I just bought the book, and the photo looks to be from the same roll as the water damaged underway photo in Donovan's book. Also, I compared the background with a photo of PT 61, which I also think is from the same roll and taken from the deck of PT 109. You compare.

[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Ted%20Walther/PT61MAY1943SEARLESVILLE.png[/image]

[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Ted%20Walther/PT_109_RON_2_CREW_1943.png[/image]

[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Ted%20Walther/PT_109_RON_2_underway_1943.png[/image]

the next few are just for Frank!

[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Ted%20Walther/Italeri_Page_PT_109_JFK_In_Cockpit_Searchlights.jpg[/image]

whoever took this only had to step back 1 extra foot and we would all see the 61 above the 77' er's window!

[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Ted%20Walther/Lt__John_F__Kennedy_aboard_the_PT-109-1.jpg[/image]

[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/LTJohnFKennedyPT101RON4PT109RON2PT59RON21943.jpg[/image]

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Jun 14, 2013 - 6:45pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

GEE! does that actually show the correct color "Tropical/Jungle Green"!!! WOW! All these years and I have finally solved the mystery!

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Jun 14, 2013 - 6:48pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

What a day in PT Boat modeling history. If someone that has a hue changing program can get the skin tones on JFK correct and you may have the color if the photo is a true color photo. I'll mess with it later.

Posted By: Bob Butler | Posted on: Jun 14, 2013 - 7:42pm
Total Posts: 192 | Joined: Mar 23, 2013 - 11:58am

What the heck is with the target orange life ring ?

Posted By: Roy Forbes | Posted on: Jun 14, 2013 - 7:48pm
Total Posts: 371 | Joined: Sep 5, 2012 - 4:57pm

Ted, What book was this in. I just used Corel Photo Paint the change the hue. The young Lt. doesn't look so green and the boat color is a real close match to the color of the boat tied up next to PT 61 in those color photos. This may be for real.

Posted By: Bob Butler | Posted on: Jun 14, 2013 - 8:16pm
Total Posts: 192 | Joined: Mar 23, 2013 - 11:58am

Bob;
No book that I know of, I found both photos while surfing for that water damaged photo in Donovan's book. Your hue change looks very close to the colors that we used on our riverine boats in Panama. I have always thought that was the right color for this boat, but that is MY opinion. I have also painted my PT 59 models(1/72nd and 1/32nd scale) this color.
take care,
TED

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Jun 14, 2013 - 9:02pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

I spent a lot of time looking at those little bits and pieces of the boat (said to be the 109) tied up next tp PT 60 and came up with what I thought was a close match so I painted my 109 that color. Comparing your photo to my mix is really really close. When I was messing with the hue I discovered I hardly had to change anything. A slight move changed the green to a dk gray. I can see now why two of the crew said green and the other two said gray, a little touch of color blindness. Thanks, may be the best find yet. Now if you can just find out who shot the man.

Posted By: Bob Butler | Posted on: Jun 14, 2013 - 9:34pm
Total Posts: 192 | Joined: Mar 23, 2013 - 11:58am

Ted,

I agree with you on the supposition all those photos, including the one of the 61, were probably on one roll of film, taken around the same time.

Thanks for posting the full, new photo of the 109 from "Listening In - The Secret White House Recordings of John F. Kennedy." It shows more of that low coastline and the boats (blobs, really) to aft of the 109.

Posted By: Drew Cook | Posted on: Jun 15, 2013 - 2:28am
Total Posts: 1306 | Joined: Oct 19, 2006 - 10:44am

Bob;
Believe it or not, this book and a quick google search actually bring a little more LOGICAL sense to that too. The corset he wore for his back, actually kept him sitting up straight in the car, when a normal man would have been thrown forward in the car, by the impact of the first bullet. If he could have just left that damn thing in the plane, he probably would have survived. I am sure Jack Duncan, as a ballistics expert, could confirm this "hypothetical" possibility. Instead, he wore it and he was a victim of his own ailments.
Take care,
TED

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Jun 15, 2013 - 5:51am
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

I wanted to give that skin color a little bit more of a warmer (tanned) tone and it took the boat to a darker olive color. We may never know the real color that I'm sure changed day by day in that humid sun.

Posted By: Roy Forbes | Posted on: Jun 15, 2013 - 10:42am
Total Posts: 371 | Joined: Sep 5, 2012 - 4:57pm

It's been reported the boat was painteed with black and yellow pigments.and that makes Olive. We use to get 5 gal buckets of O.D. , it looked like greese and we thinned it with gasoline to get a nice orange peel texture. That photo really brings back some memories.

Posted By: Bob Butler | Posted on: Jun 15, 2013 - 11:52am
Total Posts: 192 | Joined: Mar 23, 2013 - 11:58am

Just a general point have a look at the dials of the instrument panel in the second colour photo they appear white or close to it, the colour they should? be.

In the third colour photo they appear to have quite a red colour to them, maybe a little to far with the photo shop.

Plus some where I have read that the Atabrine tablets the men were required to take turned their skin quite a yellow colour, not your normal stateside colour.

And just to open a can of worms, of three shots one hit a light pole two hit the man the first traveling through his neck and hitting the Mayor of Dallas which even if the third shot had not been fired would have caused his death.

I am a little out of touch with that part as the last time I watched the roundup of the event was abut six months ago.

D.buck

Posted By: David Buck | Posted on: Jun 15, 2013 - 7:36pm
Total Posts: 332 | Joined: May 4, 2008 - 2:59am

if i remember correctly when we wwent into drydock for rep[airs nand redoing the painting if the boat we first scraped the boast,we then applied a coatinf of what we called red lead paiint/then applied a coatinf of yellow sulphur collered paunt and then applied a gray paint/then applied a dark green in camo wavy pattern as camoflage.
i think the original colors of our boats was a of a darrker hue than shown in the phiotos shwon herre, the age of the paint on the boats/the salt water and the extreme brightness of the sun may have lightened th e original "green" paint. jusy an obServation on my part. earl

earl richmond

Posted By: earl | Posted on: Jun 15, 2013 - 8:14pm
Total Posts: 197 | Joined: Oct 18, 2006 - 12:13pm

Thanks, Earl. It makes a world of difference in all of this to hear from you guys who were really Out In The Area.....

Will

Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Jun 15, 2013 - 9:35pm
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm

Wow Earl, there was more work in repainting a boat than I would have guessed.

Someone had fun colorizing JFK in the cockpit... and did a fairly good job of it except for in a few spots like the pipe and upper left gauge.

Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Jun 16, 2013 - 3:23am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am

Except for that weird orange (?) life ring on the 61...[:-confused2-:]

I'm pretty sure most of them were overpainted the same color as the rest of the boat(s)...

Posted By: Drew Cook | Posted on: Jun 16, 2013 - 2:18pm
Total Posts: 1306 | Joined: Oct 19, 2006 - 10:44am

Trust me Pete, Stan has so much to do right now, no time for any Diorama's. He just got out of Surgery on Friday for Carpal Tunnel on his right hand. He will be out of commission for a little bit. PT-61 on the drawing board for just after the summer, should be a good one. Looking to have PT-109 Italeri Kit built for my Exhibit as well.

Posted By: Frank Andruss | Posted on: Jun 16, 2013 - 5:15pm
Total Posts: 3964 | Joined: Feb 9, 2007 - 11:41am

Trust me Pete, Stan has so much to do right now, no time for any Diorama's. He just got out of Surgery on Friday for Carpal Tunnel on his right hand. He will be out of commission for a little bit. PT-61 on the drawing board for just after the summer, should be a good one. Looking to have PT-109 Italeri Kit built for my Exhibit as well.

Hi Frank.

Please tell Stan that I wish him a speedy and complete recovery.

Cheers

"Give me a fast boat for we want to get out of harm's way too."

Posted By: PeterTareBuilder2 | Posted on: Jun 16, 2013 - 9:12pm
Total Posts: 204 | Joined: Dec 8, 2012 - 6:03pm

Looks like Jerry fooled a few of you again.....................

Posted By: Frank Andruss | Posted on: Jun 17, 2013 - 1:35am
Total Posts: 3964 | Joined: Feb 9, 2007 - 11:41am

Tee hee! Somebody always falls for it. I love yanking all the chains of the "PT109 is the only PT boat that matters" crowd! All in good fun. Jerry

Jerry Gilmartin

Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Jun 17, 2013 - 2:14pm
Total Posts: 1472 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm

What subject was being exposed will also affect colour of other items in an image. I don't think there is any way, short of time travel, to tell exactly what colour and/or shade was used on any particular boat. If you want to paint something big or knit or crochet something large the very first piece of advice given is make sure everything comes from the same LOT number. That's because different lots of the supposedly same colour can be significantly and thus noticeably different fom others.

I still marvell athe angle of those gun tubs on 109. I always thought they were a lot more level than that.

Cheers

"Give me a fast boat for we want to get out of harm's way too."
Peter,

Those photos are the Hollywood PT-109 movie prop boats. They're not the actual 109 boat.
Dave

David Waples

Hi David.

Thanks for that heads up. Sometimes we miss the obvious. I'm just glad I didn't rush to correct the tubs on my two boats.

Found a reddish spray primer today that looks really good as the red on the hull bottom of the model of my 80' Elco - a lot better than the too bright Testor's Red that I had painted it 20+ years ago.

Cheers from Peter

"Give me a fast boat for we want to get out of harm's way too."

Posted By: PeterTareBuilder2 | Posted on: Jun 17, 2013 - 5:56pm
Total Posts: 204 | Joined: Dec 8, 2012 - 6:03pm

Hi all in the third photo there appears to be a frame work setup to put the Cameras on to film the bridge area,

Bit of a giveaway.

D.buck

Posted By: David Buck | Posted on: Jun 17, 2013 - 6:20pm
Total Posts: 332 | Joined: May 4, 2008 - 2:59am

I think WEM sells a "Copperoid" color

Will

Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Jun 17, 2013 - 10:13pm
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm

I think WEM sells a "Copperoid" color

Will

Hi Will.

If you were replying to my post about the reddish hull colour I bough; the stuff I got had a few things going for it. It's available ehen I want it - no waiting for it to arrive needed, and it's very inexpensive.

When I made the decision to redo the hull bottom colour I was able to go to tthe store and get the paint, return home and mask and paint the bottom within two hours total from the decision to get the paint.

The problem with small cities or towns is that nearly any specialized modelling stuff has to ordered online. That's why i try and use something available in a spray can for painting large areas of/or models.

The reddish primer i bought is Canadian Tire Store bought 047-1025-6 MMB VALUE PRIMER RED.

Cheers from Peter

"Give me a fast boat for we want to get out of harm's way too."

Posted By: PeterTareBuilder2 | Posted on: Jun 18, 2013 - 1:28pm
Total Posts: 204 | Joined: Dec 8, 2012 - 6:03pm

Krylon makes a spray can "primer" red color that's a dead ringer for brick-red copperoid. It works just fine on styrene plastic.

Posted By: Drew Cook | Posted on: Jun 18, 2013 - 1:41pm
Total Posts: 1306 | Joined: Oct 19, 2006 - 10:44am

Jerry:

Your photos are stills from the movie PT-109. The tell tale is the winch on the fore deck of the boats. Anyone interested in looking through a two inch tall stack of photos that detail the acquisition, conversion and construction, and use of the movie boats, including the two bow sections (one keel up, the other keel down) will have to visit the Warner Brothers Archives on the campus of USC in Los Angeles, California. You want copies of the photos? Be prepared to pony up $200 per shot if there are no recognizable actors in the shot. Don't think about the fees if an actor is involved.

Chip Marshall
Silver Spring, Maryland USA

Posted By: Chip Marshall | Posted on: Oct 23, 2014 - 9:26am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

Krylon makes a spray can "primer" red color that's a dead ringer for brick-red copperoid. It works just fine on styrene plastic.

Would Copperoyd have been brick red, though? I guess it depends on your definition of brick red.

My understanding (from "Hell On Keels" was that it was pure copper in a lacquer medium. Generally anti-fouling paints are made with copper or copper compounds because it's toxic to barnacles etc (the fouling in question). Iv'e not tried mixing it or buying a 'real' anti-fouling paint but I'd expect that to have an orange-ish cast.

When I've seen ships' anti-fouling paint in real life, the hull looked more red than orange. I think an iron oxide red could look pretty convincing, both for bricks and anti-fouling paint.

Well now you've done it. You've got me thinking way too much about "what color ARE bricks, really??"

Posted By: zeusbheld | Posted on: Oct 23, 2014 - 12:14pm
Total Posts: 61 | Joined: Aug 12, 2014 - 9:54pm

the pier shown looks like the one at sessapi/ tulagi

earl richmond

Posted By: earl | Posted on: Oct 23, 2014 - 9:12pm
Total Posts: 197 | Joined: Oct 18, 2006 - 12:13pm

Hi Chip and Earl,
Yes Chip I am aware the photos I posted were from the movie set in 1962, I intentionally placed them on there to mess with all of the "PT109 is the only PT Boat that matters and all I care about" people out there. Sort of a way to "Yank their chain" so to speak. But it was done all in good natured fun. Take care,Jerry

Jerry Gilmartin
PT658 Crewman
Portland OR

Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Oct 23, 2014 - 9:34pm
Total Posts: 1472 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm

PLUS the fact that Jerry is just plain evil. . .[:-laughing-:]

Will

Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Oct 23, 2014 - 10:31pm
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm

COOL IT'S ABOUT TIME FOR ANOTHER 109 DISCUSSION I SEE WE'RE COMING OUT OF AL'S CLOSET!!! I THINK THE 109 WENT DOWN IN 2 X 1000 PIECES.

Wow Chip, that's unreal. I wonder how often someone buys a copy.

Zeus, I'd guess it was an oxide of copper because it was reddish. I've heard modelers say a "boxcar red" is a good substitute if you can't get the WEM paints.

Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Oct 24, 2014 - 2:09am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am

Zeus, I'd guess it was an oxide of copper because it was reddish. I've heard modelers say a "boxcar red" is a good substitute if you can't get the WEM paints.

Copperoyd could be CU20, that's a fairly bright red. This is my guess for what's in just about any anti-fouling paint I've ever seen. Formulations I've seen for sale tend to be darker/boxcar-ish, and look almost like red Fe2O3.

It will slowly oxidize CUO, which would be in the black or grey range.

The entire reason for using copper in anti fouling paints is its toxicity to barnacles and such which means changing over time would be a good thing--more toxins released. What's interesting about this, is that it at least suggests a hypothesis for that apparent boot topping in the photos of the 109 on the tanker: it oxidized faster where it was exposed to air. It doesn't look like a deliberately painted boot topping, too sloppy.

Pure copper anti fouling paint tends to be orange-ish or even a bit brown-ish. Also I expect it would tend to oxidize to a green patina--most modern pure-copper antifouling paints I know of would.

My understanding is that vets typically describe copperoyd as red. For this reason, I suspect the pure copper lacquer described in "Hell on Keels" was a one-off, what was available on the tanker they were riding to the Pacific. Another case of using what ever was at hand.

I'll probably use real anti-fouling paints on my boats, just because I suspect its' easier to get around here than model paint.

Posted By: zeusbheld | Posted on: Oct 24, 2014 - 4:04am
Total Posts: 61 | Joined: Aug 12, 2014 - 9:54pm

While PT paint is beyond my narrow field of PT expertise, it's been discussed by the experts here that the boot topping is as you say, discoloration from the water and not painted.

Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Oct 24, 2014 - 6:44am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am

In my experience painting the bottoms of my Dad's work boats, the copperoid bottom paint was a flat brick red.

I also remember getting a can of Krylon spray paint -- can't remember what the actual color designation was (it may have been "Primer Red?") -- some years ago, when I was planning on building the Lindberg 1/32nd scale PT, that was a solid match for this color.

Posted By: Drew Cook | Posted on: Oct 24, 2014 - 11:42am
Total Posts: 1306 | Joined: Oct 19, 2006 - 10:44am

Stu Hurley did a really nice job of weathering and delineating the boot-top on his 109 model......

Will

Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Oct 24, 2014 - 12:01pm
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm

Hi CJ,
I know it's been a long time but do you remember what made up that dark film along the waterline? Was it biological or was it oil and other scum? Do you remember what you had to do to get it off the boat?
Thanks for sharing your memories.
Dave

David Waples

Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Oct 24, 2014 - 6:45pm
Total Posts: 1679 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm

Dave: I believe it was moss. It was not scum or oil. We never removed it until we went into dry dock.

C. J. Willis

Posted By: CJ Willis | Posted on: Oct 24, 2014 - 6:59pm
Total Posts: 464 | Joined: Nov 5, 2006 - 5:02pm

That sounds like it wasn't much fun CJ especially the scraping part under the hull.

Thank you for the information about the moss, talk about "experts say"... it don't get more expert than that.

Would you happen to remember roughly what color the moss was? Did you see this question coming? :D

Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Oct 25, 2014 - 2:51am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am

Would you happen to remember roughly what color the moss was? Did you see this question coming? :D I'm guessing moss-colored :p

Posted By: zeusbheld | Posted on: Oct 25, 2014 - 8:06am
Total Posts: 61 | Joined: Aug 12, 2014 - 9:54pm

Guys I helped scrape and repaint the bottom of PT 242 twice during my 13 months aboard. In dry dock. ( once at Rendova and once at Green). .All I can tell you is that it was red and pretty thick and we applied it with about a 4 inch brush. If I remember correctly it took about all day. At that time we didn't worry about what tint of red it was.

C. J. WillisI'd imagine you had other things on your mind besides the shade of red at the time!

A million thanks for that. It may seem like a small, trivial detail but just the fact that you remember it as red (not orange) pretty clearly confirms that Copperoyd was an oxide, not pure copper,. I now know what to paint it!

How often did you guys paint above the waterline?About the same, or more often? Another small detail but it will give me a very clear idea of how much the paint should be faded and/or chalked.

Posted By: zeusbheld | Posted on: Oct 25, 2014 - 8:16am
Total Posts: 61 | Joined: Aug 12, 2014 - 9:54pm

Jeff the moss was a greenish color. That moss would eventually collect with crud on the bottom of the boat too which slowed them down. You got top speed out of a boat with a new bottom and new engines. I recall only painting the deck one time during my time on 242. That was at Green Island. I don't believe we ever painted the camouflaged sides of the boat while I was aboard. It was the original paint from the factory. PT 242 was placed in service in New Orleans May 12, 1943 and I went aboard Nov 6, 1943 at Vella La Vella and was relieved from duty aboard in Nov. 1944.

C. J. Willis

Posted By: CJ Willis | Posted on: Oct 25, 2014 - 9:37am
Total Posts: 464 | Joined: Nov 5, 2006 - 5:02pm

Thank you CJ, that could really add some color and interest to a model. In the right hands which sure wouldn't be mine. I can lay a decent coat down but the weathering the experts do amazes me.

You've probably mentioned it before but thanks too for the painting history, I assumed the whole boat was painted at once. Would you mind if I quoted you on my web sites color page?

Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Oct 25, 2014 - 1:50pm
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am

Well guys here is another wrench in the convoluted copperiod color question on bottom colors. I used Krylon's Georgia Clay on the 623. The color of the can top I thought was perfect but it dried just a shade more red. Still dark and still a brownish red however, in the photos I have posted in the bright daylight, it appears redder than it actually is. With that said I now use a mixture of British Crimson & Insignia Yellow for the Italeria boats on the diorama. Drew, that Georgia Clay might be what you were talking about.

Posted By: Roy Forbes | Posted on: Oct 27, 2014 - 10:36am
Total Posts: 371 | Joined: Sep 5, 2012 - 4:57pm

CJ,
That business about the moss, and how often you painted the decks is really an incredibly valuable bit of information for modelers. I may not be the guy who can get the mossy crud just right but I'm sure going to give it a go.

Bangkok is not that far from the beach (few hours from the nicer ones) and we like the more deserted beaches that are populated mostly by fishing boats, so I should be able to find some real examples of the mold to look at.

Roy
If it really is CU20 then it could be quite red,. As a pigment it can create a range of colors; In powder form I've seen orangey (probably only partially oxidized) but also a very deep, almost blood red, a darker brick red, and even a near purple.

Given that the paint is meant to poison barnacles (and moss), it's reactive, so there's bound to have been some variation on the real boats even if it came out of the factory a very consistent color.

"Brick red": bricks are red 'cause they're made from clay. Clay (like Georgia Clay) is red because of Iron Oxide (a rust-red, because it IS rust). Anti-fouling paint's generally made from copper but to my eye a lot of anti-fouling paint can pass for Iron Oxide red in spite of the different chemistry.

So the bottom line to my eye is that you can't go too far wrong unless you're building one of the boats (Ron 12 boats, I can't remember exactly which ones) which Desolve wrote were painted, while in transit, with a pure copper antifouling (which would be orangey when new and greenish after a while).

Posted By: zeusbheld | Posted on: Oct 27, 2014 - 7:39pm
Total Posts: 61 | Joined: Aug 12, 2014 - 9:54pm

Not to re-open old wounds, but page 55 of Allan Lawrence's DEADLY PT PATROLS (which seems to be meticulously researched) states that on or about "Monday, November 30 [1942]", while at Noumea, PT-109 "was camouflaged in dark green paint and otherwise made combat-ready".

Will

Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Mar 17, 2015 - 12:07pm
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm

This would be when Bryant Larson first arrived in the combat zone. Way to got Will, you did it again![:-devil-:]
Take care,
TED

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Mar 17, 2015 - 2:18pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

Hi Dick and Will and Ted,
I remember reading this on Gene Kirkland's "PT King" website, it is in the narrative called "The unknown history of PT109". He talks about the fact that they painted the PT109 Green during an upkeep period. I also just tried to access this PT King website Dick, and the link seems to be broken. Can you fix that for us Dick? Gene has a very informative site.
Thanks Jerry

Jerry Gilmartin
PT658 Crewman
Portland OR

Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Mar 17, 2015 - 5:30pm
Total Posts: 1472 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm

Jerry - Im not sure what link you're referencing. I was able to visit the site from my own bookmarks and also the Gene Kirkland link on this sites PT Boat Link page. Please advise as to actual link you are referring to - thanks

The following paragraph is directly copied from [red][b]Gene Kirklands[/b][/red] webpages concerning the PT 109 - this the actual link to that five page section:

[url]http://pt-king.gdinc.com/PT109article.html[/url]

Partial text is as copied: [red] On the morning of April 25, Ensign Thom took the boat to Sesapi to pick up 109's new CO--a twenty-six year-old product of Harvard who introduced himself to Thom as Jack Kennedy. That same day, the men who would make up the nucleus of the 109's new crew--Firemen Edmund Drewitch and Leon Drawdy, and Gunner's Mate Charles Harris--also reported to the boat. The rest of the new crew--sailors with names like Maguire, Kirksey, Galeweski, Kowal, Mauer, Burchheit, and McMahon--reported for duty within the next two weeks. A few of these men would only stay for a short period, being transferred to other boats, or wounded in action and sent to hospital; those who remained would sail with the boat throughout the spring and summer of 1943 until the 109 met her ultimate fate one dark, dangerous night in August of that year. But that was in the future; for now, the boat was in need of major maintenance after five months in the combat area. [b]The boat needed new engines, and the entire boat needed to be camouflaged in green to match the surrounding jungle, a job the previous crew had no time for when the boat originally arrived in the Solomons the previous November.[/b] Mr. Kennedy, Mr. Thom, and 109's new crew set to the task of refurbishing the now-veteran torpedo boat; and in the process, the boat's officers had the additional duty of forging the new men into a team ready for the challenges to come. With the departure of the remnants of the boat's original crew, this little known phase of PT 109's career was over; a new and much more heralded chapter was about to begin. [/red]

If its been awhile since anyone has visited please take the time and do so.

Dick . . . .

Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Mar 17, 2015 - 10:04pm
Total Posts: 1417 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm

Thanks Dick,
I tried it on a different computer and it worked just fine. Sorry fo rthe false alarm!

Will,
By the way, that passage you quoted saying the PT109 was painted in November 30 [1942] in Noumea? Wasnt the boat already in Tulagi/Sesapi area going out on Patrols by 30 November 1942? I wonder if they made a special trip all the way back to Noumea in order to paint the boat? Near the end of Chapter 2 it says
[red]"Squadron Two's second division, including Ensign Larson's 109, left Noumea on the [Nov] 20th, [1942] under tow of another pair of ancient four-stackers, USS Manley and USS McKean. They arrived at Espiritu on the 23rd and at 1930 that evening the convoy hoisted anchor and sailed for Tulagi. After reaching a point some 300 miles from their destination the PT's were turned loose and proceeded to complete the rest of the trip under their own power. The boats arrived at Tulagi on the 25th, tying up to the dock at the former Chinese village of Sesapi. The following day,[November 26th] Lieutenant Westholm came aboard 109 and took over as boat captain, while Bryant Larson reverted back to his original position as the boat's executive officer."[/red]

I saw earlier in the same paragraph that on November 11th they painted the boats green so perhaps the book just got the date wrong.
[red]The convoy arrived at the harbor of Noumea, on the French possession of New Caledonia, on November 11. [1942] There the boats were unloaded, camouflaged in dark green paint, made combat-ready, and then towed to their next destination,[/red]

Jerry Gilmartin
PT658 Crewman
Portland OR

Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Mar 18, 2015 - 11:52am
Total Posts: 1472 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm

Hey Jerr, you didn't expect anything on the topic to make sense, did you?

Will

Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Mar 18, 2015 - 5:42pm
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm

Good point Will! I just wanted to be accurate for all the PT109 rivet counters out there!

Jerry Gilmartin
PT658 Crewman
Portland OR

Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Mar 18, 2015 - 6:28pm
Total Posts: 1472 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm

This info of the boats being painted green while at Noumea jibes with John Clagett's -- skipper of the 80' Elco PT 111, originally in Ron 5, transferred to Ron 2 and lost in combat near Guadalcanal on February 1, 1943 -- description of the PTs in his (quasi-autobiographical) novel "The Slot" being painted green there.

Here's Clagett's version, from his novel: "The morning broke sunny, and all day all hands painted ship. There was no gleam to this paint; it was flat, dark, light-absorbent. A fighting color. By night the...boats of the division were a uniform dull green."

So, it stands to reason that the 109, originally assigned to Ron 5, re-assigned to Ron 2, and arriving at Tulagi via Noumea, may very well have been originally painted green at New Caledonia.

Posted By: Drew Cook | Posted on: Mar 19, 2015 - 11:02am
Total Posts: 1306 | Joined: Oct 19, 2006 - 10:44am

OK, I will add some more here, This is the time line, As quoted in Gene's Text, as per the individual boat log books and RON TWO History/War Diary:
:
**But there was one minor problem--because of transfers earlier that summer, Squadron Two was reduced to six boats, the Elco 77-foot PT's 36, 40, 43, 44, 47, and 59. In order to bring the unit up to strength, on September 22 six of Squadron Five's boats (PT 109-114) were transferred to the Guadalcanal-bound MTB Ron Two. In the United States, the man chosen to lead Squadron Two through the sea battles to come was being detached from command of his new squadron fitting out in New York and was on his way to Panama. Lt. Rollin E. Westholm was relieved as CO of MTB Squadron Seven, and flew to the Canal Zone to take charge of Squadron Two. A 1934 Annapolis graduate, Westholm had considerable experience with PT's, since he had been with the PT program from the early days. Also, in late 1941 hed had been sent to Britain to study MTB tactics used by the Royal Navy's Coastal Forces.
** Eight of Squadron Two's boats--the six 77-footers plus PT's 109 and 110--were readied for their sojourn to the combat theater, while the remaining four boats (PT 111-114) were to follow and join up with the squadron later. The eight boats going to the war zone were divided into two sections; the first division, with Lieutenant Westholm as senior officer was PT 36 (Lt. j/g Marvin G. Pettit), PT 40 (Lt. Allen H. Harris), PT 44 (Lt. Frank Freeland) and PT 47 (Lt. j/g Mark E. Wertz). The second section was PT 43 (Ens. James J. Cross), PT 59 (Ens. David M. Levy) PT 109 (Bryant Larson) and PT 110 (Lt. Charles E. Tilden). The first division's boats were hoisted aboard Liberty ship SS Robin Wently, while the second division was secured aboard another Liberty, SS Roger Williams. The two cargo ships departed(Balboa, Panama) for the Solomons on October 14, 1942.
**Squadron Two's second division, including Ensign Larson's 109, left Noumea on the 20th, under tow of another pair of ancient four-stackers, USS Manley and USS McKean. They arrived at Espiritu on the 23rd(October 1942), and at 1930 that evening the convoy hoisted anchor and sailed for Tulagi. After reaching a point some 300 miles from their destination the PT's were turned loose and proceeded to complete the rest of the trip under their own power. The boats arrived at Tulagi on the 25th(October 1942), tying up to the dock at the former Chinese village of Sesapi.
Take care,
TED
P.S. Maybe we can reach 100 posts on this topic too!

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Mar 19, 2015 - 11:52am
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

Yeah, Ted. Everything in Lawrence's book pretty much agrees with your latest post. Whatever the date, I think they were painted green in Nomea en route to the Solomons...

Will

Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Mar 19, 2015 - 10:35pm
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm

So to get this straight in my head, the PT109 was painted green in Noumea sometimes after the 11th but before the 20th of Nov 1942?

Jerry Gilmartin
PT658 Crewman
Portland OR

Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Mar 20, 2015 - 11:22am
Total Posts: 1472 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm

Jerry;
That's what the "available" documentation says. Too bad I over looked this, for the past 2-3 years, I could have eliminated many posts on our favorite and sometimes "obsessive" subject.
Take care,
TED[:-good-:]

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Mar 21, 2015 - 7:52am
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

But Ted, then we'd never get to 100....

Will

Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Mar 21, 2015 - 5:21pm
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm

[green]I could have eliminated many posts on our favorite and sometimes obsessive subject.[/green]

Since when have we let facts get in the way of a good debate?

Good job narrowing it down. [:-cheers-:]

Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Mar 22, 2015 - 4:01am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am

Jeff;
I think that green is a little too light/
Take care.
TED

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Mar 22, 2015 - 8:38am
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

Is this closer?

Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Mar 22, 2015 - 4:03pm
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am

Hello guys,

I havent lurked here for a while or posted for quite some time. As some of you know Ive long been working on a book about PT 109. As my previous posts stated, my initial research started in 1999 and covered many other boats; so the information I gathered covers a wide range. I dont want to go into too much detail lest I compromise salability of the completed project, but this is what I believe to be true

Late 1942mid-1943 PT boat squadrons generally had the same paint scheme applied throughout the squadron while stateside and in transit to the South Pacific. Based on the well-known stateside photos showing the initial dark scheme carried by RON 5 and the lighter appearance of 109 on Stanton, RON 5 might have been an exception. Possibly because the squadron was the first with the eighty-footers. Once RON 2 and the other early squadrons moved into the South Pacific, no single scheme can be assumed to have remained on or applied to all the boats. Some were painted green, many others remained gray. The information I have based on boat logs and recollections of a PT 109 crewmember, 109 remained gray throughout the Guadalcanal Campaign. The sources corroborate each other. A memory could be incorrect, or a log entry not performed, however, the separate data points I have are not contradictory. The anecdotal evidence based on generalities within the squadron might suggest PT 109 could have been painted green at Noumea. However, my research specific to 109 indicates otherwise.

I thought it best to put this small bit of my research into the mix. I realize I might cause some heartburn or muddy the water more (sorry, couldnt help using the pun) by not going into more detail, but again, I dont want to compromise my books salability. As is typical of PT 109 related things lately, drawing conclusions on partial information and then stating it as fact is sailing into dangerous waters. (Oh geez, I better stop.)

Matt

Posted By: Matthew Waki | Posted on: Mar 23, 2015 - 1:34pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

THAT'S IT JEFF YOU DID IT![:-laughing-:]

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Mar 23, 2015 - 3:19pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

Hi Mathew,
I want to thank you for your fresh perspective and wish you good luck with your book. Just FYI, the info that I posted was from not only a former crewman, but the former skipper of PT109, Bud Larsen, who wrote a 20 page long typed recollection of his time in the Navy (back in 1950's, when his memory was still relatively fresh) for his family to have. It covers the time period from the delivery of PT109 in New York up to when he left the boat about 2 weeks before JFK showed up and took command. In his typed document, he speaks of the painting of the PT109 green just before he left. I am aware that Maurice Kowal who was a friend of Frank Andruss maintained the boat was always "Battleship Grey" So you are right in that it is possible the veterans memories may have made things fuzzy over the years.
Bud Larsen was one of PT658's initial sponsors and he shared his typed story with us but asked that we not publish it for unknown reasons. Just to muddy the waters again, Still I dont imagine this info will diminish any "assumptions or facts" from your book concerning the color of PT109. I think it is just one of those things we may never know for sure!

Jerry

Jerry Gilmartin
PT658 Crewman
Portland OR

Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Mar 23, 2015 - 4:27pm
Total Posts: 1472 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm

Hello Jerry,

Thanks for the post. Sorry I havent been back in touch with you since our last communications. Been working long hours on this and I got lax with so much to do. Despite what some say, I believe a veterans memories are always something that need to be respected and not dismissed as being untrustworthy. It is ridiculous that anyone would dismiss the memory of a combat veteran out of hand. History gets rewritten that way.

After having interviewed so many veterans Ive found that what they remember is rarely totally inaccurate. The combat memories are sometimes erroneous only because they report what they saw from their position, not necessarily what really happened on the whole. Their accounts need to be cross-referenced to additional accounts and verifiable sources. In other cases, the recall errors are merely in the timeline. This might be the case of the Kowal and Larson recollections. Follow up questioning is critical.

The 109 veteran I mentioned in my post was also Maurice Kowal. I communicated with him back in 2006. At the time, my book was going to be about fifteen other boats and 109 was merely one of them. I was constantly away from home doing contract work and reached dead ends on most of the boats so frustration led me to suspend my research. I again looked at it a few years ago and realizing how much I had on PT 109 restarted it, redirected the focus on her. Most of my PT crew interviews were conducted from 1999-2006. My correspondences with Bob Donavan were in 2000, shortly before his passing. Because I had suspended my research in 2006 I did follow up questioning of all but Mr. Kowal. I now regret that. The sparse information he related to me was also the Battleship Gray. I should have followed up.

Im including quite a bit of the other information I have accumulated in my book so I think it will be of interest to all regardless of its PT 109 focus.

Ill get back with more you via email.

Later all
Matt

Posted By: Matthew Waki | Posted on: Mar 25, 2015 - 8:15am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

looks like the old pier at sesapi

earl richmond

Posted By: earl | Posted on: Mar 25, 2015 - 7:23pm
Total Posts: 197 | Joined: Oct 18, 2006 - 12:13pm