The PT Boat Forum
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ť Forum Category: PT Boats of WWII
http://www.ptboatforum.com/cgi-bin/MB2/netboard.cgi?cid=101&fct=showf

ť Forum Name: PT Boats - General
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ť Topic: Help Needed for Late Model Elco 80' PT
http://www.ptboatforum.com/cgi-bin/MB2/netboardr.cgi?cid=101&fid=102&tid=3175

Hi everyone.
With the PT 109 and PT 596 kits that Italeri produced, I'm trying to decide which boats to represent in my builds.

Originally, I planned to use the Italeri Update set (when I can got one) to modity the PT 109 kit to a mid-war boat with roll-off torpedo racks instead of the tubes and add additional bow weapons. However, I think the torpedo tubes provide greater historical contrast to the later boats, so now I'm going to build it as an early 103 Class boat with original armament.

That leaves me with how to depict the PT 596 kit. My preference is to back-date it to a boat that saw action with the earlier SO radar instead of the SO3, but keep as many of the kit weapons as possible such as the twin .50 cal, turrets, stern 40mm, bow 20mm and 37mm, and at least 2 roll-off torpedo racks. If possible within the realm of accuracy, I'd like to add a couple of depth charges and pipe-mounted .50 cals.

The problem I have is that I can't find clear enough photos or references for specific boats in that armament/radar configuration. From the information I can find, I narrowed down the boats closest to that setup from Ron 27 PT 372-377 in the Pacific, Ron 29 PT 552-563 in the Mediterranean, or Ron 35 PT 510-521 in the English Channel.

I've ruled out PT 374 because I don't want to infringe on the superb PT-374 Memorial Project Diorama. Did the other Ron 27 boats have the same armament as the 374? I also prefer not to have to scratch-build the Thunderbolt quad 20mm on PTs 556-559.

I haven't been able to find adequate documentation in my numerous PT boat books and internet searches to identify my ultimate dream boat. I realize there might not have been any such boat, but I'd like to get as close to it as possible.

Any suggestions, photos, references, or corrections are welcome. Thank you very much for patiently reading this long-winded post.
Pete

Posted By: Rock1947a | Posted on: May 6, 2013 - 11:05am
Total Posts: 24 | Joined: Mar 1, 2007 - 10:56am

PT-373 might be a good choice. The Pacific boats were the ones that tended to carry lots of firepower forward and stand-alone .30 & .50 mgs on pipe mounts spotted in various postitions.

Will

Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: May 6, 2013 - 11:44am
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm

Thanks for the quick answer, Will. PT 373 is a definite possibility. I'm still open to other suggestions though.
Pete

Posted By: Rock1947a | Posted on: May 6, 2013 - 12:21pm
Total Posts: 24 | Joined: Mar 1, 2007 - 10:56am

PT-373 is an excellent choice. This PT brought Mac Arthur back to Corregidor in March of 1945.

Wayne Traxel

Posted By: Wayne Traxel | Posted on: May 6, 2013 - 1:55pm
Total Posts: 248 | Joined: Oct 11, 2006 - 5:40am

PT-373 is a great choice, using this Ron 27 boat as the main subject that MacArthur rode on. Thanks for your concern on not doing PT-374, my Memorial Diorama project, but if you choose this boat, that would be fine by me, although PT-373 might be the better choice.

Posted By: Frank Andruss | Posted on: May 7, 2013 - 6:04am
Total Posts: 3964 | Joined: Feb 9, 2007 - 11:41am

It looks like PT 373 is the unanimous choice. Where can I find photos or descriptions of the boat's armament?

Thanks very much for everyone's kind help.
Pete

Posted By: Rock1947a | Posted on: May 8, 2013 - 8:24am
Total Posts: 24 | Joined: Mar 1, 2007 - 10:56am

Pete,

Sorry for a late suggestion, but two RON 27 boats you might consider are the 359 and the 361. From my picture collection it looks like the RON 27 boats had fairly standardized armament except for the pole mounted 50 caliber guns to port of the chart house. Then it was variations of single or twin guns. The outlier is the 359 boat with a second 37 mm cannon replacing the starboard 20 mm, an interesting set-up. It appears to have twin 50's to port.

[image]http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o102/prjm3/358-359_zpsb21474d3.jpg[/image]

This being my first picture post on the new forum, I'll see if this works before going further.

Randy McC

Posted By: Randy McConnell | Posted on: May 8, 2013 - 7:11pm
Total Posts: 12 | Joined: Mar 16, 2013 - 7:42pm

Pete,

Okay, the first picture post worked so here's the foredeck layout of the 361. (Of course I'm biased towards this boat.) The port pole mount guns were twin 50's with curved ammo magazines. Maybe some other forum members can say what the magazines were originally intended for.

[image]http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o102/prjm3/361-2_zps19398e10.jpg[/image]

On the starboard side was a small mortar and 20mm magazines against the chart house. All of the staged photos of sailors at the mortar are with white-colored flare rounds. The only other picture I have of a mortar is of a much larger unit on the 377. The 37 mm on the 361 was originally on a low mount like those in the earlier picture of the 358 and 359. After an overhaul the 37 mm was on a taller mount.

[image]http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o102/prjm3/361-1_zps69243c27.jpg[/image]

I have a lot of pictures of the 361, including their monkey mascot, as well as other RON 27 boats, particularly the 359 and 360. I'll see if I have anything on the 373.

For the MacArthur "return" to Corregidor on PT boats, he actually did it four times. First on the 373 plus once on the 375 and twice on the 361, although I don't know what order the last three were in. I have some newspaper and magazine clippings on those trips which would be more appropriate for a separate thread. I do remember my Dad saying that RON 27 was selected for the photo-op return missions in recognition of some unit award that they were awarded.

Randy McC

Posted By: Randy McConnell | Posted on: May 8, 2013 - 7:41pm
Total Posts: 12 | Joined: Mar 16, 2013 - 7:42pm

Hi Randy.
Thanks for posting the great photos. I'm sure other members will appreciate them too. The port side pole-mounted twin .50 cal curved ammo boxes on the 361 foredeck look like the the same boxes in the .50 cal. turrets, but that's just a guess on my part.

I believe that the 356-361 boats were based on the early PT-103 series, so back-dating the PT-596 kit would involve major modifications to the turrets, day room, chart house, etc. What I'd like to do is build the 596 kit with the earlier SO radar without other major alterations. The PT 372-377 boats come close to my project, but I don't have adequate photos or documentation for them. I might still decide on an English Channel or Mediteranean boat if I can find enough references.

Thanks for sharing your very interesting information. I really appreciate your interest.
Pete

Posted By: Rock1947a | Posted on: May 9, 2013 - 9:34am
Total Posts: 24 | Joined: Mar 1, 2007 - 10:56am

Great photos, Randy. Thanks for posting them.

Posted By: Drew Cook | Posted on: May 9, 2013 - 3:41pm
Total Posts: 1306 | Joined: Oct 19, 2006 - 10:44am

Pete - What's your email? I'll send you some 373 pics.

Will

Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: May 9, 2013 - 9:21pm
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm

Pete,

I'm a little slow to catch on, but I've got it now! I forgot about the two different series of boats, now the boat numbers you are considering make sense.

Most of the pictures I have of the 370-numbered boats are with them in nests and not much detail visible. One I do have is of the 377 with the large mortar visible next to the chartroom as well as the name "Cruncher".

[image]http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o102/prjm3/377Cruncher-1_zpsc15e604d.jpg[/image]

The caption from Dad's photo album reads, "Japanese surrender party with Australian Army Officers on board PT 377. Mel Everingham, skipper of PT 377, with left hand on hip, is seated on front of chart room. Randy was on a troop transport headed for San Francisco when this photo was taken by Chuck Welsh, Skipper of PT 359."

I'm guessing it's also an Australian wearing a bush hat in front of the turret. Notice that there are no weapons in sight and no ammo in the 50 cals. Sorry, but not much detail of the 370-numbered boats.

Good luck with your search for pictures.

Will, could you share some of your pictures with the forum?

Randy McC
Lakewood, CO

Posted By: Randy McConnell | Posted on: May 10, 2013 - 5:46am
Total Posts: 12 | Joined: Mar 16, 2013 - 7:42pm

Pete - What's your email? I'll send you some 373 pics.

Will

Hi Will.
My email address is rock1947a@aol.com
Would you be able to also post the PT-373 photos on the forum as Randy suggested? If not, would you mind if I try to post them for you, or forward them to Randy?

We never can have enough pictures of these magnificent boats. I often wish there was a universal database of PT boat photos we could all access.
Thanks,
Pete

Posted By: Rock1947a | Posted on: May 10, 2013 - 9:34am
Total Posts: 24 | Joined: Mar 1, 2007 - 10:56am

That's a great photo of the 377 boat, Randy. It includes several useful boat details besides being a memorable snapshot of some of the crew and passengers.

I've never seen the nickname Cruncher before. The PT 377 nickname is not included in Bob Ferrell's United States Mosquito Fleet or Frank D. Johnson's United States PT-Boats of World War II in Action. As far as I know, your photo provides another piece of missing PT history. (On the other hand, I don't know very much.)

Concerning the armament in the photo, it's curious to see the large mortar tube facing aft instead of forward, starboard or port. Maybe that's to avoid contaminiating the interior of the barrel while under way, or maybe to make room on the deck?

I could be mistaken, but I think I can make out a few of other details:
Starboard forward 20mm facing straight up.
Port forward 20mm breach at very edge of picture (barrel facing forward?).
Is that a pipe-mounted .50 cal barrel pointing straight up visible between the
2 port-side antennae?

I'm far from a PT Boat expert, but I'm very anxious to learn as much as possible. If anyone has further information they're willing to share, I'd love to see it.
Pete

Posted By: Rock1947a | Posted on: May 10, 2013 - 10:17am
Total Posts: 24 | Joined: Mar 1, 2007 - 10:56am

Most excellent photos Randy, thank you for sharing them! It looks very uncomfortable in that last shot you posted, I see lots of tension.

Pete, another list was done by Will Day, it has the Cruncher listed: [url]http://www.pt-boat-list.gdinc.com/[/url]. Nice work Will.

Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: May 10, 2013 - 10:42am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am

Hi Jeff.
Thanks for the heads up and link to Will Day's PT Boat list of nicknames. I wasn't aware of it, but now it's in my favorites folder and I will download the .pdf version to my pc.

My hat's off to Will for his hard work in producing this updated list of nicknames. I'm sure there's much more on this forum that he and others have provided that I haven't come across yet. This is a treasure trove of information, from which I learn so much every time I visit.

Thanks to everyone.
Pete
[:-cheers-:]

Posted By: Rock1947a | Posted on: May 10, 2013 - 11:11am
Total Posts: 24 | Joined: Mar 1, 2007 - 10:56am

You're welcome Pete, I learn a lot here too.

Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: May 10, 2013 - 1:37pm
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am

Hey Randy,
My dad was on PT356, any chance you have any pictures of that boat?

Thanks,

Larry

Larry Peterson the son of Earl Peterson of PT 356

Posted By: Larry Peterson | Posted on: Dec 2, 2015 - 6:36pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

Larry,

I looked through my pictures last night and unfortunately I have none of the 356. Sorry I couldn't help.

Randy McC

Posted By: Randy McConnell | Posted on: Dec 2, 2015 - 7:03pm
Total Posts: 12 | Joined: Mar 16, 2013 - 7:42pm

Randy,
No Problem, thanks for checking.

Larry

Larry Peterson the son of Earl Peterson of PT 356

Posted By: Larry Peterson | Posted on: Dec 2, 2015 - 7:50pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

Here are two pictures of the 356:

[url]http://www.navsource.org/archives/12/05356.htm[/url]

Charlie

Posted By: 29navy | Posted on: Dec 3, 2015 - 6:00am
Total Posts: 600 | Joined: Dec 28, 2006 - 3:02pm

I have a lot of pictures of the 361, including their monkey mascot, as well as other RON 27 boats, particularly the 359 and 360. I'll see if I have anything on the 373.

For the MacArthur "return" to Corregidor on PT boats, he actually did it four times. First on the 373 plus once on the 375 and twice on the 361, although I don't know what order the last three were in. I have some newspaper and magazine clippings on those trips which would be more appropriate for a separate thread. I do remember my Dad saying that RON 27 was selected for the photo-op return missions in recognition of some unit award that they were awarded.

Randy McC

Randy, I'm hoping you're still active on this forum.
My grandfather served on PT-361. I'm doing some research on his military history and would love to see any pictures or other information you have on PT-361.

- Jerry

Posted By: Jerry | Posted on: Feb 15, 2017 - 11:43am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

Pete;
You are correct, the curved .50 cal boxes are the same. n addition to Randy, I suggest you use Jeff Davidson's www,pt103.com for your reference. many of his stuff carries to the late 300 series ELCO's.
Take care,
TED

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Feb 15, 2017 - 8:37pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

oops, duplicate.

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Feb 15, 2017 - 8:37pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

Jerry,

If you could provide your grandfather's name I'll see if I have anything on him in my PT361 pictures and notes.

Randy McC

Randy McConnell (Randall J. McConnell III)

Posted By: PRJM3 | Posted on: Feb 18, 2017 - 8:53pm
Total Posts: 94 | Joined: May 25, 2009 - 2:47pm

His name is Clarence "Ed" Carnahan

Posted By: Jerry | Posted on: Feb 20, 2017 - 8:04am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

I believe he held the rank of Captain

Posted By: Jerry | Posted on: Feb 20, 2017 - 8:06am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered