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» Forum Name: PT Boats - General
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» Topic:
Progress on My PT 109
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Topic: Progress on my PT109 - Apr 10, 2013 - 1:56pm
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Color is still an issue. I painted the boat US Navy 5NG greeb, Which I really liked and still do but looking at the photos posted of PT 61 with 109 tied up on its starboard side It didn't look right. Two of the crew thought it was dark green and two thought it was dark gray. A number of others said dark gray and dk green also. I'm sure most of you know the debate. In my profession we use somethinf called a SWAG,(Scienctific Wild Ass Guess). I'd painted a 1/72 with White Ensigh Tropical Green and hated that. It is pretty well knowen the paint on the 109 was mixed and not out of the can. So I started experminting with the colors they may have had at the time and came up with a shade of green that looks Dark Gray in full sun and Dk Green in shaded light. A persons degree of color blindness factored in and I feel I'm very close. I've asked some friends what color some said gray and some said green If I can figure out how to attach a photo I will. The boat is 5NG green and the dayroom is my color made with a 1:1 mix of Trolpical green and Deck Gray (White Ensigh Tropical Green and Testors Euro 1 Gray. (FS 36081). PS How do you post a pic?
Photos posted below (Dick):
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/BB-01.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo BB-01.jpg[/image]
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/BB-02.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo BB-02.jpg[/image]
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/BB-03.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo BB-03.jpg[/image]
Posted By: Bob Butler | Posted on: Apr 10, 2013 - 2:06pm
Total Posts: 192 | Joined: Mar 23, 2013 - 11:58am
Bob . . .
Email me the photo, I will post it for you.
Click on the email icon above or use the email address below:
dick@ptboatforum.com
Dick . . . .
Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Apr 10, 2013 - 2:26pm
Total Posts: 1417 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm
Dick, Photo's on the way. Please be Gentle and keep in mind this is my guess and I'm not saying this is the color of the 109 but I think I'm on to something.
Posted By: Bob Butler | Posted on: Apr 10, 2013 - 2:40pm
Total Posts: 192 | Joined: Mar 23, 2013 - 11:58am
Hey Bob, your model is coming along nicely.
There's a post on another forum about her color here, including a color photo of what is probably the 109: [url]http://modelshipwrights.kitmaker.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=SquawkBox&file=index&req=viewtopic&topic_id=202180&ord=&page=5[/url].
It matches what a PT vet said when I asked what color the all green PT boats were, he replied they were GREEN. It makes sense to me, I'm guessing they were trying to match the green of the tropical vegetation, a slightly darker than grass green.
Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Apr 11, 2013 - 3:46am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am
Hi Bob,
As Jeff said your boat is coming along nicely. I like the placement of the depth charges. That said the placement on the photo of the 109 on Ballard's book looks like they are set back just a little further and no sign of toe railing. However the photo is not that good and it's hard to say with any certainty.
With respect to those color photos of the 109, I would focus on the boat on the port side of PT-61. That green looks pretty close to the 5NG. When I did my Revell kit I used 4 parts 5NG and 1 part Tropical Green. When I mixed some black and yellow together I was able to come up with a green fairly close to 5NG. Kind of a WAG as you say but it gave some credibility to what I had heard and read before about this field created green paint.
Glad the photos got posted. Please continue to share your work with us!
Dave
PS. The National Geographic Society came back and said they don't have the cover photo in their file.
David Waples
Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Apr 11, 2013 - 4:59am
Total Posts: 1679 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm
Bob,
Interesting theory. You do seem to be on to something. I went nuts a few years back trying to figure out the most likely green of 109 and ended up using tropical green on a 1/72 model, which was the fashion at the time. It looks too blue to me now.
Don't know whether you have considered it, but I would now probably go for US Marines green as a starting point (there must have been some of that about, surely) and add grey from there. Looking at the colour photo of the green boat next to the 61 which we have cause to believe is 109, the paint finish seems too neat and uniform to be a just a rush job with any old paint. It certainly seems to look fresh. Which leads me to believe that the colour could have been a common one after all and applied with some care. Just my opinion though. Greens do suffer in sunlight and depending on the pigments can shift drastically to blue or very brown. I have chickened out anyway and I am going for dark grey this time. Keep up the good work, look forward to seeing the finished article.
Best Regards,
Stu.
Measure twice, cut once.
Posted By: Stuart Hurley | Posted on: Apr 11, 2013 - 5:01am
Total Posts: 255 | Joined: Mar 19, 2013 - 3:32am
By the way Bob, how did you go about fashioning the starboard side day cabin window. Like Stu's it looks real good.
Dave
David Waples
Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Apr 11, 2013 - 5:06am
Total Posts: 1679 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm
Bob Butler
Apr 11, 2013 - 8:57am
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The window was realy easy. The 109 kit comes with some photo etch frames for the front of the chart house, I just used epoxy to attach one to the window after cutting off the drip rail, it's a perfect fit so don't use to much epoxy. I looked at the cover for Ballard's book too but also trying to line up the camera shot of JFK at the helm, if you look at the uncropped version you can see the forward port depth charge, and to me I think it was moved rearward and inboard.
The color I mixed is really weird. It is a flat shade, for example in the sunlight and on camera the spot of paint I sprayed on the corner of the chart house lights up like a neon light but under my hobbyroom florescent lights you can hardly see it. If you look at the guard rail for the 20mm gun of the 109 in the PT 61 photo it's a green gray, at least to me, that's the color I went after. It looks almost gloss. After posting the pic's yesterday I sprayed a satin finish and that makes the green stand out more. If you look at the group photo on the 109 you can see the light does a washout of the forward deck in the bottom of the picture. I'm going to try a flat finish on the deck and upper surfaces and the satin on the sides. The way light effects color seems to be a lesson I'm learning now.
Also I want to thank you guys for your imput, I value it and your research. GREAT FORUM!
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Bob%20Butler/PT-61Prescottphotos.jpg[/image]
Posted By: Bob Butler | Posted on: Apr 11, 2013 - 9:11am
Total Posts: 192 | Joined: Mar 23, 2013 - 11:58am
Thanks Bob, I had to look at the photoetch fret again to see that there are two sets of Chart House forward window covers. One painted over and one open as you used for your Day Cabin. Good call! I'm going to follow your lead.
Dave
David Waples
Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Apr 11, 2013 - 8:56pm
Total Posts: 1679 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm
Hi,
I needed mine for the front, so had to go with plastic strip.
Best Regards,
Stu.
Measure twice, cut once.
Posted By: Stuart Hurley | Posted on: Apr 12, 2013 - 12:58am
Total Posts: 255 | Joined: Mar 19, 2013 - 3:32am
Stuart, I have an extra if you want it, it's free. rbbutler@frontier.com
Posted By: Bob Butler | Posted on: Apr 12, 2013 - 7:45am
Total Posts: 192 | Joined: Mar 23, 2013 - 11:58am
Hi, Bob,
Mail incoming.
Best Regards,
Stu.
Measure twice, cut once.
Posted By: Stuart Hurley | Posted on: Apr 12, 2013 - 8:25am
Total Posts: 255 | Joined: Mar 19, 2013 - 3:32am
I'm almost embarrassed to post this. Big Realisation tonight. Havn't seen PT 109 the movie in years. The turquoise green they painted the boats wasn't because of the foliage on the islands, it was the color of the water. Am I the only one.
Posted By: Bob Butler | Posted on: Apr 12, 2013 - 9:23pm
Total Posts: 192 | Joined: Mar 23, 2013 - 11:58am
Bob,
The three "PT" boats (converted 85' Air/Sea Rescue Crash Boats) in the movie "PT 109" were painted gray, not green.
It seems many people, over the years, have thought they were green, particularly due to a photo of the "109" from the film that's been circulating on the internet for quite some time (in which the boat does look sort of green), but...
Watch the DVD of the film on a good color-adjusted TV. They're gray, a color most people used to call "Navy" gray. Just what actual official Navy shade or measure of gray, I couldn't say.
Posted By: Drew Cook | Posted on: Apr 13, 2013 - 2:47pm
Total Posts: 1306 | Joined: Oct 19, 2006 - 10:44am
Bob Butler
Apr 13, 2013 - 3:27pm
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I guess my last post wasn't clear. The real 109 and some of the others were painted with a turquoise shade of paint that was mixed on the spot. It occured to me after looking at some of the senes in the movie and having looked at some other I'd seen in photos, that is the the color of the ocean in many locations there and that is the camo effect that was trying to be achieved. I was thinking the camo on the boats were painted to blend in with the foliage on the land and I realized I was wrong. It was fun to watch the movie and see the detail they went to , like the hand rails on the dayroom and the sheilds above the engine room hatch. Then looking at the errors like the clean plexie glass windshields and the placement of the forward turret, to that of a late model Elco. Those guys really did a fantastic conversion on what they had to work with. The only down side I got that damn tune they kept playing stuck in my head over and over and over again.
Posted By: Bob Butler | Posted on: Apr 13, 2013 - 3:36pm
Total Posts: 192 | Joined: Mar 23, 2013 - 11:58am
Sorry Bob,
Thought you were talking about the movie boats being green.
I most certainly wouldn't ever call the green color (real) PTs -- especially the early 80' Elcos of the Guadalcanal/Russells/Rendova period --were painted "turquoise." As far as I've ever seen, read or heard about, they went from a dark "forest"green, like the boat (maybe the 109) to starboard of the 61 in those color photos, to a lighter, sun-faded olive green (like Bridge Carney's model of the 157 )-- but hardly "turquoise."
And -- the boats were painted green to camouflage them in the bushes along the shoreline during the day, not to match the color of the water.
Posted By: Drew Cook | Posted on: Apr 13, 2013 - 5:19pm
Total Posts: 1306 | Joined: Oct 19, 2006 - 10:44am
Here's another photo of PT-109 on the port side of PT-61. This picture is from the Prescott collection. This shows a glimpse of PT-109 in the light rather than in the shade. Notice how faded the deck is in this photo.
Dave
[IMAGE]http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n27/David_Waples/PT%20BOATS/PT-61CheifTorpedoman.jpg[/IMAGE]
David Waples
Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Apr 13, 2013 - 6:54pm
Total Posts: 1679 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm
US Navy Tropical Green is a turquoise, I read the acounts of Forrest Green Whatever that is. There are also accounts of the boat being Tropical Green, Dark Gray, Dark Green. etc The green I see in the color photos to me look like a green /gray. and that's what I see in the color photos of the PT on the starboard side of PT 61. PT 61 is gray. I shouldn't have brought up turquoise but that is how I got the color that looks good to me (1:1 Tropical Green and Deck Gray). Light really effects this mix. If the light is just right the greeh hue has an almost turquoise effect with the gray. My photos don't show the true color as seen in person. This color can match the ocean in places and US Navy Tropical Green matches the color of the ocean in the South Pacific in many places and that is what my realization was. Sorry for my use of terms, this whole thing is confussing enough with out me balbbing through it. Any way that's what I'm going with and I hope to show the boat off in some shows this summer. Reno will be one.
http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=4721&start=320
Posted By: Bob Butler | Posted on: Apr 13, 2013 - 7:18pm
Total Posts: 192 | Joined: Mar 23, 2013 - 11:58am
This is one of those topics that will make us all crazy. :-) Tropical Green System from what I've been told is not an "official" Navy color. It was a field creation of Zinc Chromate (which is a yellowish green not to be confused with aircraft interior green) and 5-TMa Tinting Paste which is a black or blackish blue color. I mixed zinc chromate and black together and I got something similar to 5-NG. It's a long ways from turquoise. It's a color exclusive to PT Boats in the South Pacific. If somebody can show me something different I'm all ears.
White Ensign Models put out a paint they called "Tropical Green" but it was a guess and not close to the colors we see in the color photographs. It does look turquoise in color.
I found what did look good was taking 4 parts of 5-NG and 1 part WEM Tropical Green. That's just me playing around but it does look just like the photos. Here's a photo of the Revell 109 boat I finished a few years back with this mixture.
[IMAGE]http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n27/David_Waples/PT%20BOATS/PT-109Photo9-1.jpg[/IMAGE]
This photo shows the Tropical Green color created n the field.
[IMAGE]http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n27/David_Waples/PT%20BOATS/PT-109colorreference.jpg[/IMAGE]
Here is a very nice PT-109 model made by Martyn Robey using WEM Tropical Green.
[IMAGE]http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n27/David_Waples/PT%20BOATS/pt109-01_zps0f000d68.jpg[/IMAGE]
Dave
David Waples
Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Apr 13, 2013 - 10:36pm
Total Posts: 1679 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm
Ouch! I don't want to wade in on the colour of the boats as its clear that what one person sees another will not!
However the water around and close to the Islands appears green because of the closeness to the surface of the coral reefs, beyond the reef edge the water is generaly fairly deep and there the water is a deep rich blue.
If you can't go there to see this log on to google earth and check out the south pacific the colours are faily true, but nothing beats seeing it for yourself.
Or for that matter the flying fish and the dolphins being on the water out there gives one goosebumps when you know the history of the islands.
D.buck
Posted By: David Buck | Posted on: Apr 14, 2013 - 1:06am
Total Posts: 332 | Joined: May 4, 2008 - 2:59am
Field trip!
Trust me, I have no intention of fighting about the color question. I'm not an historian or expert. I'm only sharing what I've learned and put together over the years from the evidence provided by others more knowledgeable.
For official USN paint reference, John Snyder & Randy Short, along with White Ensign Models are my go to source for color matching. With respect to Tropical Green you wont see it in their complete chip set. All we can go by are the photos of the boats from the period and even those aren't perfect because of color shifting and different types of film, etc. Then add in the harsh sun to really screw things up.
I love White Ensign Models Color Coats paints. They are a great foundation to start from because of the excellent research from John Snyder and Randy Short have done. In my opinion the Tropical Green they created just isn't right when compared to the photos. The photos we're looking at didn't become available until after the guys made this paint color.
At the end of the day, do what makes you happy and have some fun doing it! Speaking of which, I'm starting my kit starting tomorrow!
Dave
David Waples
Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Apr 14, 2013 - 6:40am
Total Posts: 1679 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm
David., Thank You , Your the man.
Posted By: Bob Butler | Posted on: Apr 14, 2013 - 8:07am
Total Posts: 192 | Joined: Mar 23, 2013 - 11:58am
0417130935b_zps26332dca
Just testing
Posted By: Bob Butler | Posted on: Apr 22, 2013 - 4:58pm
Total Posts: 192 | Joined: Mar 23, 2013 - 11:58am
Photo Test...
Posted By: Bob Butler | Posted on: Apr 23, 2013 - 4:36pm
Total Posts: 192 | Joined: Mar 23, 2013 - 11:58am
