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ť Forum Category: PT Boats of WWII
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ť Forum Name: PT Boats - General
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ť Topic: Italeri kit dayroom front and rear walls
http://www.ptboatforum.com/cgi-bin/MB2/netboardr.cgi?cid=101&fid=102&tid=3110

Hi all,
Can anyone confirm that the dayroon front and rear walls should be 90 degrees to the waterline, the same as the rear turret ? Looking at drawings I think this should be so.
I think this accounts for the odd appearance of the turret stagger in the kit when viewed from tthe starboard side. The turret itself is O.K. I reckon.
Best regards,
Stu

Best Regards,
Stu.

Measure twice, cut once.

Posted By: Stuart Hurley | Posted on: Mar 26, 2013 - 2:21am
Total Posts: 255 | Joined: Mar 19, 2013 - 3:32am

They are Stu, as is the inner framework. Are the kit walls OK?

Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Mar 26, 2013 - 5:31am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am

Hi, Jeff,
Unfortunately not then. The dayroom is all square. The front wall isn't too noticeable but the rear makes the turret stagger look wrong from starboard. I can see most people will leave this well alone. The rear wall is a fairly easy fix but the front is tricky as then there will be a discrepancy in the lenth of the cabin where it meets the cockpit steps etc. and then you may find the roof a little short as a result and it will all get worse from there. Fortunately the spray shields hide this area quite well
BTW did you see my question about the training cranks on the roof? On your partial drawing it would appear that the starboard side crank is mounted further aft than the port. They are opposite each other in the kit. Just wondered if this is correct. Sorry to keep sponging off you but my enquiring mind keeps finding stuff......
Best regards,
Stu

Best Regards,
Stu.

Measure twice, cut once.

Posted By: Stuart Hurley | Posted on: Mar 26, 2013 - 5:50am
Total Posts: 255 | Joined: Mar 19, 2013 - 3:32am

Bummer Stu...

Stu, you are in no way sponging off me. I appreciate your going through the extra effort to get it right very much. I think it's a show of respect to the men that fought on them. I also appreciate your sharing your observances with us. So it's more like me sponging off you. :D I started my site to help modelers get it right, one particularly bad RTR R/C boat really set me off. After seeing what was available, it wasn't until I saw a plan drawn by Al Ross of [url]http://www.coastalforcesplans.com[/url] that I saw what they really should look like. Then I bought most of the Elco 103 class drawings available at [url]http://www.ptboats.org[/url], but wasn't really happy using general arrangement drawings with little or no dimensional info. Then Dick gave me a copy of the Elco DVD... which caused me to happily trash most previous work.

I missed the crank question Stu. I noticed the difference of the torpedo tube crank mounts but don't have a satisfactory answer. I believe Italeri used the deck arrangement drawing which shows them even. For the most part the drawing is very accurate which leads me to guess they were moved. I used the specific crank stowage drawing which shows them staggered. It's one of the drawings the Navy didn't film very well but the placement dimensions were visible. The modification and application sections are almost illegible. A total guess would be that the starboard crank was moved back around the same time the day room hatch was hinged to the aft so that the hatch wouldn't sit on top of it when opened.

When modeling the cranks I was surprised at how few photos I had that show the mounted cranks. I guess because they were removed when roll off racks were installed. Maybe another board member can shed further light on this. This is about the only image I have of the mounted crank, it shows the stbd one and it appears to be moved back from where the deck arrangement drawing shows it:

[image]http://www.pt103.com/images/Italeri_Page_Stbd_Torpedo_Tube_Crank.jpg[/image]

Anyone know which boat that is?

Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Mar 26, 2013 - 9:43am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am

I checked the deck arrangement drawings, which I should have before, and see that the drawing for PT 372-383 and some 540's boats show the cranks staggered. It's still possible the move was made before these boats though. As always, images of boats are needed to verify.

Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Mar 26, 2013 - 9:57am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am

Hi Jeff,
Thanks, very much. I will leave the kit as is then as I have changed the pads to represent the wooden blocks and bungee cord. I have carried out the modifications to the dayroom to introduce the rake and they were quite simple after all.They certainly improve the look. I will post some pictures when I get a chance, probably over at Todds thread which he kindly invited me to hijack occasionally.[:-smilearound-:]

Best Regards,
Stu.

Measure twice, cut once.

Posted By: Stuart Hurley | Posted on: Mar 26, 2013 - 11:54am
Total Posts: 255 | Joined: Mar 19, 2013 - 3:32am

@Jeff: I believe that's the 315 boat dummied up for a training film. (Right, Frank?)

Will

Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Mar 26, 2013 - 1:05pm
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm

Stuart,

Here's the inboard profile for the iinitial series boats to illustrate the vertical nature of the frames, bulkheads, and deck structures..

[IMaGe]http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i204/alross2/inb_zps96e6cf4a.jpg[/IMaGe]

Same series, showing the placement of the speed wrenches for the torpedo tubes.

[IMaGe]http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i204/alross2/top_zpsf825b730.jpg[/IMaGe]

Al Ross

Posted By: alross2 | Posted on: Mar 26, 2013 - 3:27pm
Total Posts: 993 | Joined: Oct 30, 2006 - 8:19pm

Hi, Al.
Fantastic, many thanks, some pics over at Todds thread.

Best Regards,
Stu.

Measure twice, cut once.

Posted By: Stuart Hurley | Posted on: Mar 26, 2013 - 5:13pm
Total Posts: 255 | Joined: Mar 19, 2013 - 3:32am

Will,

That's a still from the Warner Bros. documentary "Devil Boats."

Don't know which PT that was numbered up as the "1315."

Posted By: Drew Cook | Posted on: Mar 26, 2013 - 8:04pm
Total Posts: 1306 | Joined: Oct 19, 2006 - 10:44am

Note the angle of the outer screen, the inner needs to be cut the same. the sliver can be added to the sbd wall. The turret edge needs to be cut back to match the new angle so the wall Can butt up to it

More pics on model shipwrights.
S

Best Regards,
Stu.

Measure twice, cut once.

Posted By: Stuart Hurley | Posted on: Mar 27, 2013 - 1:25am
Total Posts: 255 | Joined: Mar 19, 2013 - 3:32am

Stu,
I noticed the line drawn for the two halves of the day cabin roof. Italeri's update set will include some photoetch connecting plates if you can stand to wait. Should be available there in the UK next month sometime.
Dave

David Waples

Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Mar 27, 2013 - 5:19am
Total Posts: 1679 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm

That is the 315 boat in the color photo, you are correct Will.

Posted By: Frank Andruss | Posted on: Mar 27, 2013 - 6:14am
Total Posts: 3964 | Joined: Feb 9, 2007 - 11:41am

Thanks Will, Drew, Frank.

Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Mar 27, 2013 - 6:27am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am

I see you got out the chainsaw Stu.

Stu, were you the one I was discussing the boat hook with? I can't find the thread... Check the top photo on this page for the stbd boat hook location on PT 109, click it for a larger image: [url]http://pt-king.gdinc.com/PT109-2.html[/url]. I'll have to check and see how it compares on other boats, and it's different from what the drawing I used shows, but the aft end looks it was flush with the cabin end on the 109.

Jeff ,
Yes, it was at/near the end of the wall but since I added a couple of mm I will have to move it and lengthen it, as then the tubular handle fitting under the deadlight window will not be in the right place (It is at the centre of the window on 105/103 so I guess it would be the same on 109)
More work[:-smilearound-:]

Best Regards,
Stu.

Measure twice, cut once.

Posted By: Stuart Hurley | Posted on: Mar 27, 2013 - 6:53am
Total Posts: 255 | Joined: Mar 19, 2013 - 3:32am

David,
Really? amazing. I was just contemplating how to represent these.
Does the set contain a cabin heater? I am fretting over that at the moment. I have the Elco drawings but they are hard to interpret, especially the mounting to the deck.
I was going to get this set anyway for the liferaft.
Many thanks.

Best Regards,
Stu.

Measure twice, cut once.

Yes, that one was just good timing. When Jeff published that CAD drawing and the photos came out with the plates I couldn't believe it because we had just concluded our conversation with Italeri about ideas for their parts kit. They told me we were in time to add the plates to the photoetch fret and they pulled it off. That's how great these guys have been to work with.
Dave

David Waples

Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Mar 27, 2013 - 6:37pm
Total Posts: 1679 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm

I must say I am really impressed with Italeri's co-operation on their PT projects. So many companies just refuse to accept consumer input.

Will

Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Mar 27, 2013 - 9:22pm
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm

Hello,
Italeri do seem to have a passion for the subject, and must have been impressed with the enthusiasm of the people here, to have taken the risk.
I just hope they don't mind me cutting up parts of their lovely kit.

I spent some time yestereday finishing my dayroom mods, tidying it all up and adjusting the fit. I think it was a worthwhile mod which improves the look IMHO.

Best Regards,
Stu.

Measure twice, cut once.

Posted By: Stuart Hurley | Posted on: Mar 28, 2013 - 2:51am
Total Posts: 255 | Joined: Mar 19, 2013 - 3:32am

Looking good Stu, I see you heightened the throttle push rod deck housing too. Most excellent!

The boat hook pole itself was 10' long, including the 4" tapered end that fit inside the head.

Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Mar 28, 2013 - 5:52am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am

Hi, Jeff
Yes, had to do it. That mod also involved widening the engine hatch coaming, as there was a gap between it and the pushrod cover flanges. I noticed the tubular boat hook (handle retaining) fittings on PT 103 and 105 were exactly under the centre of the deadlight window, with the hook fitting at the edge of the wall . This does make my scratchbuilt stbd boathook a little shorter than the kit port side one at the moment though. Something to look into. The next creation is to be the heater unit. I have the elco drawings but I am not sure yet about the deck mounting over the throttle covers. Also, I notice that 109 does not seem to have the diagonal brace on the box or the rail along the top edge, which makes it easier to build at least.

Best Regards,
Stu.

Measure twice, cut once.

Posted By: Stuart Hurley | Posted on: Mar 28, 2013 - 7:05am
Total Posts: 255 | Joined: Mar 19, 2013 - 3:32am

Ahhh heaters. I haven't looked much into them. As far as I know, boats headed for warm waters such as the 109 weren't equipped. Where are you seeing a heater on her? It might be something else.

If anyone else knows more about heater use, or if my guess is wrong, could you please post it here?

Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Mar 28, 2013 - 7:53am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am

Jeff,
In the famous shipping pics. On the J.Stanton I think 109 and 110 have their heaters in place. You can just see the louvres through the wood beams on 110 in the rear three quarter shot. In the stbd. side shots of 108 and 109 I am convinced the heaters are there. I have enhanced the photos to try to get some more detail out of them but the boxes are quite plain. They do appear to be the correct size and shape though, so I don/t think that they are just storage or the like.

Best Regards,
Stu.

Measure twice, cut once.

Posted By: Stuart Hurley | Posted on: Mar 28, 2013 - 8:10am
Total Posts: 255 | Joined: Mar 19, 2013 - 3:32am

I see them, good catch I've never noticed them before. I'm also not seeing the aft windshield on the 103, 105, 108. The aft view of the 109 appears to show it though. I'll be working on that next so thanks for pointing those images out. The 103-108 boats had some minor differences, don't know if this is one or not yet.

Still not sure that's a heater, it looks leveled in the drawings and tilted to the deck angle in the 108 shot. And too close to the cabin with no duct. Here's what the drawing for PT 103-162 shows:

[image]http://www.pt103.com/images/Italeri_Page_Dwg_Heater_Engine_Hatch_PT103_162_Stbd_Side_850.jpg[/image]

A section on the heater would be a good addition to the Italeri boat changes page, thanks for lending me courage to make me jump in. I'll need to do a lot of drawing crawling though, Verified with images or "maybe"'s, the drawings lie sometimes.

Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Mar 28, 2013 - 11:35am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am

Jeff,
If you have a look at the shots of PT117 at speed on test she has the same box. When I enhanced the photos all I could get out of them was what looked like some release clips at the bottom.

Best Regards,
Stu.

Measure twice, cut once.

Posted By: Stuart Hurley | Posted on: Mar 28, 2013 - 2:08pm
Total Posts: 255 | Joined: Mar 19, 2013 - 3:32am

I see, I checked PT 117 photos I had and found a back shot of it. And 1 of the 141 with definitely a heater:

[image]http://www.pt103.com/images/ptpics/PT_117_141_Box.jpg[/image]

Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Mar 28, 2013 - 2:48pm
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am

I see what you're talking about on the 109:

[image]http://www.pt103.com/images/ptpics/PT_109_Box.jpg[/image]

Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Mar 28, 2013 - 3:18pm
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am

We are on to something.

The louvres on 141 are much more pronounced and similar to the drawings. The drain is also very prominent
The box on 117 has a single narrower louvre similar to 110 On 110 you can just make out a diagonal strip similar to 109 top left to bottom right.

louvre visible on 110

It certainly seems we have two types of enclosure, early and revised. Maybe they uprated it after the first few.
Best Regards,
Stu.

Measure twice, cut once.

Posted By: Stuart Hurley | Posted on: Mar 28, 2013 - 11:37pm
Total Posts: 255 | Joined: Mar 19, 2013 - 3:32am

You certainly are on to something, at least as far as I know. I've never spotted that before. Excellent photo squinting Stu!

It could be an early version of a heater. And I see what you mean in the 110 shot, it could be an exhaust pipe. It's on the stbd side in the drawings and 141 shot. That would be a cool detail on a boat with a heater, the pipe snaked around the torpedo tube foundation before dumping out the side. Check out drawing ELCO_Roll_5535-4_72SCAN_00326.pdf, for PT 159-196 and 314-367 plus.

I went through the heater drawings but couldn't find any additional information. Likewise with ammo storage drawings. So for now I'll say "early boats of the 103 class show a heater-like box in images of them being shipped out" or something like that. I've learned to say "maybe" and "guess" a lot with PT boats. :D

Any better images or information would sure be appreciated.

Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Mar 29, 2013 - 5:59am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am

Stu,

I doubt very much those heating units were retained on the 80' Elco PTs in the South Pacific.

The equatorial heat would have (quite obviously) negated their use, and as the boats were stripped of everything non-essential for combat -- particularly anything of any weight -- if those heating units even made it to Tulagi on the boats, I'm pretty sure they'd have been removed and left on the beach.

Although the classic Revell 1/72nd scale model kit of the 80' Elco PT, first released in the early 1960's, has a part for that heating unit box, I'd never model a PTO 80' Elco PT with one.

Hi, Drew.
Thanks for the info.
You are correct, but I have gone down the route of building my 109 as she was before shipping, so I have as we say, 'made a rod for my own back' If only we could get a photo of that beach!
Got to go with it now as I have driven myself mad scratch building lengths of toe rail.

Best Regards,
Stu.

Measure twice, cut once.

Posted By: Stuart Hurley | Posted on: Mar 29, 2013 - 8:31am
Total Posts: 255 | Joined: Mar 19, 2013 - 3:32am

Jeff,
I have seen no other photos of our early heater box. I think the words maybe and guess will feature strongly on this one.
I would go with a diagonal brace on the rear face and one louvre. I can't see any evidence of an exhaust or drain.
It could be MacArthurs' filing cabinet !
There is something on the forward face in the 109 shipping shot from stbd. but I can't get much out of the photo. Maybe it is the duct. Logically it has to be there.
I notice on late boats the duct enters the day cabin higher up, through the area which had the window and there is a hairdryer like assembly (which appears in the parts catalogue) around the duct, with a vent to stbd through the cabin wall.
Maybe we'll turn something up. I'll keep looking.

Best Regards,
Stu.

Measure twice, cut once.

Posted By: Stuart Hurley | Posted on: Mar 29, 2013 - 8:47am
Total Posts: 255 | Joined: Mar 19, 2013 - 3:32am

Stu,

Sorry, I missed that you're modeling the 109 as she was shipped out on the Stanton.

The model looks great -- beautiful work. I'm looking forward to seeing the finished boat!

Posted By: Drew Cook | Posted on: Mar 29, 2013 - 10:18am
Total Posts: 1306 | Joined: Oct 19, 2006 - 10:44am

Thanks Drew,
I am enjoying the build and really getting my teeth into it. I hope I can do it justice.

Best Regards,
Stu.

Measure twice, cut once.

Posted By: Stuart Hurley | Posted on: Mar 29, 2013 - 11:48am
Total Posts: 255 | Joined: Mar 19, 2013 - 3:32am

My guess is that is PT-315 as the 315 is roughly centered and she spent a lot of time in PTRon 4 at Melville, where it would have been easier/more likely for her to be filmed.

Tracy White
Researcher@Large

Posted By: Tracy White | Posted on: Mar 31, 2013 - 7:58am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

That heater that didn't match drawings turned out to be a rubber boat stowage locker. Those with Dick's drawing DVD can find it on ELCO_Roll_5535-2_72SCAN_00179.pdf.

Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Apr 15, 2013 - 3:41pm
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am

All;
Yes this is PT 315, with an extra 1 added to throw off any enemy intell types that might see the film.
take care,
TED

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Apr 15, 2013 - 7:06pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

Stu,
Would you please email me at jgbeas@comcast.net . I want to pick your brain on torpedo tube questions. Thanks
Jerry

Jerry Beasley

Posted By: Jerry Beasley | Posted on: Apr 24, 2013 - 11:47am
Total Posts: 89 | Joined: Jan 9, 2008 - 4:27pm

Jerry,
Incoming.

Best Regards,
Stu.

Measure twice, cut once.

Posted By: Stuart Hurley | Posted on: Apr 26, 2013 - 12:49am
Total Posts: 255 | Joined: Mar 19, 2013 - 3:32am