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ť Forum Name: PT Boats - General
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ť Topic: Request permission to come aboard......
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I am extremely pleased to find this website and the PT-103 website. I am a 59 year old model builder who primarily builds 1/32 scale USN and USMC aircraft. I also build modern USMC and Russian Armor. Because of the larger scale and the amount of detail that can be done,
I am looking forward to building the Italeri PT-109, I am grateful for all the intel I am finding on both of these websites.

I must forewarn the membership here that as a former member of Uncle Sam's Mis-guided Children, I will ask some stupid questions. My knowledge is very limited regarding USN vessels. In 16 years of service, I spent about 7 total hours on USN ships ( An LPH and an LCAC).

That said, here are some of my first questions;

Once the 80' ELCO' arrived in SWP AO, they were painted with a medium green on vertical and horizontal surfaces. What would be closest FS number to match this green?

Was there any non-skid applied to the deck? (Maybe pumice in the deck paint?)

Was the life raft secured to the deck where the 37 mm was later installed?

That's about it for now, Thank you

Mike Witous

Semper Fidelis

Temecula Valley Model Club
Haud Sceptum Haud Sentio Haud Forsit

http://www.meetup.com/TemValModClub/

Posted By: Gunner Mike | Posted on: Nov 18, 2012 - 9:48pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

That said, here are some of my first questions;

Once the 80' ELCO' arrived in SWP AO, they were painted with a medium green on vertical and horizontal surfaces. What would be closest FS number to match this green?

Was there any non-skid applied to the deck? (Maybe pumice in the deck paint?)

Was the life raft secured to the deck where the 37 mm was later installed?

That's about it for now, Thank you

Welcome to the board Mike. Glad to hear you will be taking on the Italeri kit. I've been working with some of the guys here to help Italeri produce this kit. I just received my advance copy and it is beautiful. I will be doing a complete review on the kit over the next couple of days. We have some very knowledgeable people here who will be happy to provide detailed information about the boats. You will also find that you will receive a lot of speculation and best guesses. We get pretty passionate about it sometimes so be patient.

I'll start the ball rolling by asking you if you know which boat you're going to build?

Paint color leads to some very spirited discussions that will depend on which boat you are building. What type of paint do you like to use? Now to start the spirited discussion. :-) If you are building the 109, she was at some point painted a field developed green. They didn't have FS numbers there. Italeri suggests FS34102. I just pulled out my FS guide and I think that is very close. Close to what? We have some color photos from one of the skippers who Ted Walter knows. He tied up along side the 109 often and has told Ted that the boat on the starboad side of his gray 77' Elco is the 109. I actually think the boat on the port side tells the story of the mystery green better. You decide but I think FS34102 is a very good choice. These boats heavily weathered in the tropical sun so you see a lot of fading on horizontal surfaces, especially the decks.

[IMAGE]http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n27/David_Waples/PT%20BOATS/PT-109colorreference-1.jpg[/IMAGE]

As far as non skid goes on the 80' Elco there are only two areas I can think of that have this and I'm not totally sure if it is non skid as you and I would think of it. Maybe somebody can help with that. You will see two black squares on the top of the chart house and day cabin adjacent to the two turrets. They are also right next to steps on the sides of these structures. The rest of the horizontal surfaces are all just painted.

The life raft at least on the 109 doesn't appear in any reference photos. We do know that JFK had a small dingy that he used but it wasn't on board the boat. Mostly the boat crews would put them somewhere to keep them out of the way and you rarely see them on the foredeck. Usually on the top of the chart house in front of the helm or on the day cabin. The good news for you is that Italeri didn't include a raft in the kit. That said they are planning on introducing one in future releases of this kit.

I think that covers your questions for now. No doubt there will be more.

Once again welcome to the board.

Dave

David Waples

Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Nov 19, 2012 - 5:05am
Total Posts: 1679 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm

Here's a probable glimpse of PT-109 (starboard side of PT-61). The skipper of PT-61 in this picture said that he was tied up along side JFK. While you can't see a boat number we do have the word of the veteran who was there.

[IMAGE]http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n27/David_Waples/PT%20BOATS/PT-61crewJuly1943.jpg[/IMAGE]
[IMAGE]http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n27/David_Waples/PT%20BOATS/PT-61Prescottphotos.jpg[/IMAGE]

David Waples

Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Nov 19, 2012 - 6:13am
Total Posts: 1679 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm

Welcome to the message board. Trust me, anything to do with PT-109 will gather a fire-storm of answers, which should help you in your build. Color is always a good source of back and forth banter here, but as Dave has alluded to, the color match for paint is pretty close. Remember, there are really no good color shots of any of these boats from the Squadron at that time, so the photos Dave has put up here, will help some. I guess my first question is how you intend to build the boat. Out of the Elco Factory, she was gray, and did have her Balsa Raft on the bow, which was quickly removed by the crew's to make room.

Some stored the raft on the dayroom, and some were removed altogether, and replaced by the rubber type raft, later on. Painting in the field was pretty much what was available by the Quartermaster, and in some instances, paint was mixed to get that certain green color. I must say over the years, I have seen PT-109 models painted every shade of green available. I am not 100% sure, but I do not think any type of paint mixed to make a rough service was used coming out of Elco. Maybe someone here has a better idea of that, but I have not heard of it being used. If you are making the model to appear as if it was out in the Pacific, than there would be certainly fading of the paint on the upper surfaces of the day room and chart house areas, not to mention deck areas wherever the guys moved about. The combination of salt water and the hot blazing sun changed the color of the boat quickly. Good luck with your project and welcome aboard.

Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Nov 19, 2012 - 6:29am
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am

MIke;
Welcome to the board.

David;
I actually have the word of another veteran who was there. The boat on the starboard side of PT 61 is PT 109, but the boat on the port side o PT 61(the other 77' ELCO) is PT 48! John Iles was Skipper at the time, and he has also confirmed, that while at Searlesville(where the photos were taken in late May 1943), He either tied up next to Ken and Joe in PT 61, or Jack in PT 109. The three were always nested together. Do you have the photo of the crews going to chow in the LCVP? This shows the same boats, but is futher away and shows all 3.
Take care,
TED

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Nov 19, 2012 - 7:11am
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

Gentlemen,

Pinning down the green color of the early boats is about as difficult as matching Israeli armor sand gray or modern Russian armor green. Like David said, the green was probably mixed from whatever the quartermaster had in stock, I have access to a color spectrometer at work and match FS numbers to Tamiya paint mixes. I will post the formula in a future message. BTW the color pictures posted are outstanding.

As far as the non-skid on the deck goes, if it is there, it is very very subtle according to these and other pictures. The life raft is a mystery.

Right now I am leaning towards a build of the 109 as she was fitted before the 37mm was lashed to the deck. To me she looks much "cleaner" without it. I have built the Italeri 596 boat with all the late war weapons which kind of reminds me of how they modified our AFV's in Iraq and Afghanistan, sort of like a Mad Max movie.

I would hope that Italeri would come out with some figures depicting the crews of these SWP boats. I did find some resin helmets, life vests etc. from a company called Royal Model. I am sure some photo etch is being worked on as well.

Thank you for your responses. What is model building without passion?

Out here

Mike Witous

Semper Fidelis

Temecula Valley Model Club
Haud Sceptum Haud Sentio Haud Forsit

http://www.meetup.com/TemValModClub/

Posted By: Gunner Mike | Posted on: Nov 19, 2012 - 9:41am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

Mike;
About the non-skid, as far as I know, none was ever used.
Take care,
TED

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Nov 19, 2012 - 10:40am
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

Welcome to the board Mike! I'm glad you're finding this site and my pt103 site helpful.

The non skid surfaces on the tops of the chart house and day room on the 103-196 & 314-367 Elco deck arrangement drawing are described as "non-skid rubber mat". After that, the description is "tri-m-ite pads". Today, tri-m-ite is 3M's black wet or dry sandpaper. I'm betting you already knew that. I don't know how similar past and current products are, in particular the color. Black would be a good bet. The chart house and day room turret steps also had non skid applied to their tops. I have no idea if the 109 had any kind of non-skid on her decks.

Ah yes, the PT 109 green subject. If I remember right, someone who asked 4 former crew members said 2 stated the boat was gray and 2 stated the boat was green. I understand that, it would be like someone asking me what color house I lived in when I was 20. Although you can't see the "109" on her, I think Ted has come up with the best reference yet, color pictures and statements from a man that was there! Well done Ted. I saw someone on another forum say that he didn't think that it was the 109 in the photos. When asked why despite the skippers statements, he stated that he had a "gut feeling". That's one of the funnier comments about the subject I've seen. Even if it's not the 109, it most likely would be the same color. I asked a former crewman of PT 103, Jack Duncan, about the shade of green the all-green PT boats had, he replied "they were GREEN". Just like in Ted's photos. It makes sense to me as opposed to an olive drab, it matchs the green of tropical vegetation but I'm certainly no camouflage expert.

Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Nov 19, 2012 - 11:53am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am

Mike and Jeff;
Non- skid "stick-on-pads", yes, these were also on the 77" ELCO's, however, I was refering too Non skid paint, this is what I thought Mike was asking about.
Today's Non-skid is two part (E wt73lbs and F wt 25-30lbs) and when mixed, weighs in the neighborhood of 100 lbs. (for each 5 gal can).
Now the average 5 gal can (oddly enough the can I referenced was Green! Green # 14062 which is an enamel british racing green/forrest green color)of paint is 65 lbs.
I wonder if C.J., Earl or Jack, remembers how many 5 gal paint cans were used during one of their re-paints?
Take care,
TED

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Nov 19, 2012 - 12:51pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

I just figured out to respond individually to your reply. Thank you for the information. FS 34102 looks like a pretty good match. As greens fade they get lighter and grayer. The reflectance also changes. I would be curious to find out if the boats were hand painted or sprayed. More than likely a combination of both.

Are the overhead sky lights green tinted?

Again Thanks

Mike Witous

Semper Fidelis

Temecula Valley Model Club
Haud Sceptum Haud Sentio Haud Forsit

http://www.meetup.com/TemValModClub/

Posted By: Gunner Mike | Posted on: Nov 19, 2012 - 8:11pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

Yes I was referring to the decks. I think part of the helm floor may be a rubber matt.

Thanks for the info. BTW all of the non-skid on our LAV's were applied at the factory. It was pretty uniform. I still got the scars on my forearms and elbos from this stuff. But it's better than breaking an arm or a leg falling off a turret.

Mike Witous

Semper Fidelis

Temecula Valley Model Club
Haud Sceptum Haud Sentio Haud Forsit

http://www.meetup.com/TemValModClub/

Posted By: Gunner Mike | Posted on: Nov 19, 2012 - 8:23pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

Guys;
This is the photo I was speaking of. In this photo the 77' boats are switched as a result of return from patrol. In this photo PT 61 is outboard with MK 15 torpedoes, John Iles PT 48 is inboard and JFK's PT 109 is inshore.
Take care,
TED

[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Ted%20Walther/PT61and48and109RussellsMay1943.jpg[/image]

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Nov 19, 2012 - 8:26pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

woops.... I stuttered

Posted By: Gunner Mike | Posted on: Nov 19, 2012 - 8:27pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

Mike;
The "floor: area at the cockpit of both 77' and 80' ELCO's was a teak/wood lattice flooring about 5 'x3'
TED

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Nov 19, 2012 - 8:30pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

Welcome aboard Mike!
As I am a crewman of the restored PT658 in Portland, OR which is a Higgins 78ft, I am partial to the Higgins. That being said, I met a WW2 PT Boat crewman, Bob Machnik, last June who rode our boat at the Rose festival Fleet Week. He gave us copies of some photos he had from his boat, the 80 foot Elco, PT150. The most surprising thing was that there were several COLOR photos! I noticed the PT150 was also painted green. These are pretty good color pictures that Bobs son scanned for me, and I just thought you and several other PT Boat nuts may appreciate seeing them, especially since you dont see that many good color photos of PT Boats! Even so, I still think Ted has better pictures that he posted already. Jerry PT658 Portland

PT150 cook Wendell Innskeep at helm off Samar 1945

[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Jerry%20Gilmartin/WendellInskeepAtHelm.jpg[/image]

PT150 Signalman Wm Garfield

[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Jerry%20Gilmartin/WmGarfield.jpg[/image]

PT150 skipper LT William J West

[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Jerry%20Gilmartin/WilliamJWest.jpg[/image]

PT150 crewman Woodlell (or possibly Woodell?)

[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Jerry%20Gilmartin/WilfredWoodlell.jpg[/image]

PT150 in Ormoc bay

[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Jerry%20Gilmartin/OrmacBay.jpg[/image]

PT150 Wiese, Smiles, Machnik, and LT West

[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Jerry%20Gilmartin/BobWieseJGSmilesMachnickLtWest.jpg[/image]

PT150 cook Wendell Inskeep climbs from deck hatch on bow

[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Jerry%20Gilmartin/BestCookWendellInskeep.jpg[/image]

Jerry Gilmartin

Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Nov 19, 2012 - 9:40pm
Total Posts: 1473 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm

Nice, Jerry. Thanks!

Will

Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Nov 19, 2012 - 10:56pm
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm

Thanks for posting those photos Jerry. That is the first time I've seen the inside of the funnels painted red. I found the port side photo interesting. The standard .50's in the port turret, 20mm Oerlikon on the port side of the foredeck, a mirror image of the .50 cal deck mounted between the torpedoes, and some mystery barrel close to the deck mounted .50! What's that about! Any ideas? The mount for the light is very unique. I haven't seen that before. I keep looking and seeing new things.
Great stuff Jerry! Our thanks to Mr. Machnik as well.
Dave

David Waples

Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Nov 20, 2012 - 4:53am
Total Posts: 1679 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm

Those are great photos, Jerry. Thanks to Mr. Machnik for providing them, his son Bob for scanning them, and you for posting them.

Lots of fascinating details on the late-war configuration of this boat, the most interesting of which, to me, is the cut-down port cockpit bulkhead/armor.

Posted By: Drew Cook | Posted on: Nov 20, 2012 - 9:21am
Total Posts: 1306 | Joined: Oct 19, 2006 - 10:44am

Hey Dick,

Any chance of zooming in and clearly blowing up of that slice of the 109 in that b&w PT 61/PT 48/PT 109 photo?

It might solve a couple of questions about her...it looks like she may have had (small?) light-colored numbers on her port outboard cockpit above the grab rail...but I can't see any on the charthouse...

Posted By: Drew Cook | Posted on: Nov 20, 2012 - 9:26am
Total Posts: 1306 | Joined: Oct 19, 2006 - 10:44am

Wow Jerry, new color images! Once again thank you very much for posting them. This forum would be a much poorer place without your knowledge and contributions.

Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Nov 20, 2012 - 11:13am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am

Drew, I was looking at it too and it does look like some light colored feature on the side of the cockpit side plate just below the top rail that might be markings. i couldn't see any anywhere esle either.

I also could not pick a mast out of the trees behind the 109.

Posted By: ducati650 | Posted on: Nov 20, 2012 - 11:37am
Total Posts: 450 | Joined: Feb 19, 2007 - 10:01am

Fantastic photo's Jerry. The color of the boat certainly was not done in the States, this looks to be a job done in the Pacific. Mix whatever was available to make green to blend into the surroundings. Looks to be a Forest Green color, or dark green when it comes to paint from the local hobby shop. Great shot of the Port side Depth charge, which really helps if you want to paint them for a hobby boat. PT-150 certainly had a few ad on's for weapons, including .30 caliber stingers, 20mm, .50 calibers........................

Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Nov 20, 2012 - 1:26pm
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am

Maybe it's my monitor, but I'm seeing more blue than green. Especially in the image captioned "PT150 cook Wendell Inskeep climbs from deck hatch on bow ". The deck looks like a different color too...

Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Nov 20, 2012 - 1:55pm
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am

Yeah, Jeff - I'm seeing it with a deffinate blue tint also.....

Will

Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Nov 20, 2012 - 2:37pm
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm

Hi David, I think your Mystery barrel is the 40mm Bofors on the stern? Did you notice the particular shade of GREEN that the boat was painted in? Any opinion on that? Jerry

Jerry Gilmartin

My initial thought was color shifting in the photos. Notice the inside of the hatch. Is it a less faded version of the exterior color?
Dave

David Waples

Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Nov 20, 2012 - 9:07pm
Total Posts: 1679 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm

Thank you Jerry for posting these pictures. I am hoping that the next time I get to Portland on business I can take a look at your boat. BTW are you a Duck or a Beaver?

University of Oregon, 1971-1974 O-Line ( before the Corps)
Now residing in SoCal

Mike Witous

Semper Fidelis

Temecula Valley Model Club
Haud Sceptum Haud Sentio Haud Forsit

http://www.meetup.com/TemValModClub/

Posted By: Gunner Mike | Posted on: Nov 20, 2012 - 10:06pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

Double posted again, Dam

Posted By: Gunner Mike | Posted on: Nov 20, 2012 - 10:11pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

Drew . . .

Tried to blow it up and lighten - there is just nothing there. There are however some white dots from photo print or from the scanner these were scanned on, no numbers or other reference. I even blew out the color but still nothing.

[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Webmaster/PT-61Prescottphotos-copy-01.jpg[/image]

Jeff, Will . . . .

I took a couple of pt-150 images and opened them in Photoshop and performed a simple "Auto Color" and the green came out. The images are over saturated tending to lead to blue, but the color actually is a very dark green. Most all PC Windows computers will show different colors depending on monitor, graphics cards and computer operating system. Those on a Mac usually see very, very close to the same colors, because ColorSync found on all Macs.

[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Webmaster/BestCookWendellInskeep-copy-01.jpg[/image]

[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Webmaster/WendellInskeepAtHelm-copy-02.jpg[/image]

Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Nov 21, 2012 - 9:04am
Total Posts: 1417 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm

[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Webmaster/BestCookWendellInskeep-side.jpg[/image]

Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Nov 21, 2012 - 9:17am
Total Posts: 1417 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm

PT493 before RON33 moved to the P.I.
Green #3 and Brown #4 are most likely.

[IMage]http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h450/ducati650/PT%20Squadron%2033/493-3.jpg[/IMage]

[IMage]http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h450/ducati650/PT%20Squadron%2033/493-4.jpg[/IMage]

[IMage]http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h450/ducati650/PT%20Squadron%2033/493-blacksheep.jpg[/IMage]

Posted By: ducati650 | Posted on: Nov 21, 2012 - 11:04am
Total Posts: 450 | Joined: Feb 19, 2007 - 10:01am

Thanks, guys!

Will

Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Nov 21, 2012 - 11:22am
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm

[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Webmaster/493-blacksheep-copy-comparison.jpg[/image]

Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Nov 21, 2012 - 12:35pm
Total Posts: 1417 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm

Dick,

Thanks...but I was referring to the black & white photo of the three boats (moored to the left) in the photo Ted Walther posted on page 2 of this thread. Ted says the 109 is the 80' Elco, closest to the shore. You can only see a small slice of it in that photo.

I wouldn't even ask...but for your magical computer skills in clearly enlarging these historic photos!

Thanks again.

Posted By: Drew Cook | Posted on: Nov 21, 2012 - 2:07pm
Total Posts: 1306 | Joined: Oct 19, 2006 - 10:44am

The white spot is to defused to make out anything:

[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Webmaster/PT61and48and109RussellsMay1943-copy.jpg[/image]

[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Webmaster/PT61and48and109RussellsMay1943-copy-2.jpg[/image]

Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Nov 21, 2012 - 2:21pm
Total Posts: 1417 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm