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» Forum Category: PT Boats of WWII
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» Forum Name: PT Boats - General
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» Topic:
new album-Ron 33 photos
http://www.ptboatforum.com/cgi-bin/MB2/netboardr.cgi?cid=101&fid=102&tid=283
I thought i would make an album of the photos of Ron 33 I have received from don Brown, son of the skipper of the 493 boat and Ray Wilbur, son of a gunner on the 495 boat. I want to thank them for thier assistance and for sharing the photos. Most of the photos are of the 493 boat.
[url]http://www.villagephotos.com/pubbrowse.asp?folder_id=1840703[/url]
Ed
Posted By: ducati650 | Posted on: Mar 20, 2007 - 5:47am
Total Posts: 450 | Joined: Feb 19, 2007 - 10:01am
That's a great collection of photos and it's backing up your color and pattern selection. Keep up the great work. I'm starting to think about backdating this critter myself. Keep the photos coming. Can't wait to see the stars and bars.
Dave
David Waples
Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Mar 20, 2007 - 7:40pm
Total Posts: 1679 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm
Thanks. I posted a few new pictures in the build link. After looking at photos and talking with crew and families, I think the pattern was also painted on the deck when first applied. See the July 2007 photo from March 1944 in the PT Boat Calendar. The pattern is on the deck. compare this to the Ron 33 boats 490, 491 and 495 nested to the Oyster Bay later in the year, after Oct. You can make the faint outline of the pattern, especially on the 491. Either it faded badly or the deck was painted over with a color like Deck green. That is what i did and you can see it in the latest photos. That is brown on the deck with Deck green on top of it but I stopped painting when the pattern was still slightly vbisible.
What do you guys think?
Ed
Posted By: ducati650 | Posted on: Mar 20, 2007 - 8:02pm
Total Posts: 450 | Joined: Feb 19, 2007 - 10:01am
I'm sitting here looking at your photos and comparing them to the Snyder and Short chip sets that I have.
Good catch on the deck pattern. I think you have the right idea at Oyster Bay. Looks like they changed the numbers to white? I keep looking at the other photos of the 493 boat. The darker color looks like everything from black to Navy Green (5-NG Revised) to #4 Deck Gray 20. Then I look at the radar mast and it looks like a lighter gray. But my guess is that it's brown and not gray, and it is just the photo giving the gray look. The brown looks like a faded Brown 4A from the chip set I have so maybe Brown 4 faded is right. The mast color seems to match the rails on the port gun turret too. Back to Oyster Bay It looks like the 491 boat was completely painted over except on the sides, while the 495 boat appears to have kept the brown and dark green (or whatever it is) except on the deck surfaces. Anybody's guess on the dark color. But in the photos it appears completely vertical surfaces are darker than the horizontal surfaces. But you would suspect that with weathering and sun angle.
Tough decisions on the paint. Not sure what John Snyder is saying but typically WEM paints need to be faded to give a scale look. Not sure if that's what you're using but I love their paint. I think you're pretty close but don't mess up the model going crazy with the paint. You're not wrong with the Brown 4 and 5-NG.
I think I'm going to stay with the 596 boat and avoid the melt down I'm currently having with my 105 and 109 boats. But what fun would that be?
What great subject matter!
Keep up the great work!
Dave
David Waples
Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Mar 20, 2007 - 9:30pm
Total Posts: 1679 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm
Thanks. John Snyder thinks it is probably Brown #4 and either 5-NG or Green #3. I have both and settled on green #3 because I liked the look better. I really appreciate your input. It reinforces how I read the photos. I knew using brown would go against the conventional wisdom. I have some more original photos and will try to post them today if I can.
Thanks again,
Ed
I added the additional photos to the Ron 33 page. I'm using the WEM paints.
I'm thinking about stripping the hull and deck and starting over. The paint on there now is built up and has sort of evolved. I now know what I want to do, what I think it should look like and how to do it.
Posted By: ducati650 | Posted on: Mar 21, 2007 - 3:07am
Total Posts: 450 | Joined: Feb 19, 2007 - 10:01am
Hi Ed,
You would be hard pressed to tell the difference between 1944 #3 Green and 5-NG Navy Green from the 1943 revised greens. John is your best source for color. The one thing to keep in mind with WEM paints is that they are mixed per formulas I believe. Typically paints are lightened the smaller the scale to give a scale look. Then weathering needs to be taken into consideration. Finally you have war time or operational variances to consider. In other words when you have to paint the boat, you have to paint the boat and you do it with what you have. Do you want a fresh paint look or a weather beaten look. Your best source would be the crew so they may be the best source for understandiing what happened on the deck. But even they can contradict each other sometimes. It all adds to the modeler's meltdown. :-)
A question for you on your construction. With respect to the twin .50 cal next to the forward port torpedo tube how did you deal with the left and right hand cocking mechanism? All the after market guns I've seen have right hand pulls.
Thanks and we'll be looking forward to the additional pictures.
Dave
David Waples
Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Mar 21, 2007 - 4:51am
Total Posts: 1679 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm
Dave,
You have a great understanding of this stuff. I really appreciate it. This model is my first boat, the first thing this big and the first time using WEM paint. Needless to say, I am learning a lot. I do mostly WW2 aircraft in 1/48th so i have studied them a lot. There are a lot of paint issues with them also. For thee PT I bought Al's and Chun's books, already had 3 other PT Boat books. bought a silicon molding/casting kit and learned how to do that, bought Al Ross' plan package, should buy stock in Evergreen Plastic, joined PT Boats Inc. and on and on. This is the most expensive kit I've ever built.
For what it is worth, here is a link t photos of my latest plane. It is a P-40E used by the AVG. It was a replacement aircraft transferred to them on the QT. They flew them from South Africa to China with stops along the way. These were in standard USAAF OD which weathers very badly. The stars on the wings were covered with the Chinese disks. On the body the stars were painted over with the only green they had, the green used on their original P-40B/C intended for England. Oddly they left the US ARMY on the bottom of the wings.
[url]http://www.villagephotos.com/pubbrowse.asp?folder_id=1285914[/url]
I really enjoy doing the research. The paint is scaled and weathered. With planes I pretty much know what to do. This PT boat is a challenge and I have really enjoyed the sometime frustration journey but I now think, with the help of a lot of people, where I need to be.
The fact that you have reached the same conclusions as I, really helps my confidence. Thanks.
I think I am going to strip the hull and deck then paint the full original pattern with lightened #3 and #4, including the deck. This is how I think the Ron 33 boats looked in Mar. '44. Then I will spray the deck with Deck Green or maybe a darkened #3 so that the underlying pattern is still discernable and the boat will look like the late '44 Oyster Bay photo. I'm not sure if the horizontal surfaces of the cabin and deckhouse should be over-sprayed with deck green or left in the camo pattern. I think over-sprayed. On the cabin the star and bars cover so much it probably doesn't matter. The deckhouse has more area. Thoughts?
Thanks a lot.
Ed
Edit:
I forgot your question about the twin fifty mount. The guns come the Academy Machine Gun set. The are really quite nice for plastic. They have charging handles that you glue on. I will attach them to the appropriate side. I may need to file/cut a groove but there already is a feature the looks pretty close. The $7 kit comes with 30 cals, and several 50s. 2 of the 50s are aircooled we need. There are a number of HD barrels and 2 have flash hiders so I cut them off and added them to the boats twin 50 mounts. I bought 2 MG kits.
Edit 2:
I was looking at the Ron 33 nested Oyster Bay photo trying to see if i could detect if the cabin and deckhouse roofs were still camo patterned. Hard to tell but look at the area arount the deckhouse hatch. Could that be the pattern? I see it running up the side and on the spray shield.
Posted By: ducati650 | Posted on: Mar 21, 2007 - 5:39am
Total Posts: 450 | Joined: Feb 19, 2007 - 10:01am
It looks to me like all three boats retain their chamo pattern on the hull. The 495 boat retains it's brown chamo on the deck structures where the other two boats look like they are all one color. As you noted the chamo on the decks looks like it was painted over . The numbers look white to me. There is an amazing amount of scuffing on the decks. I think you have the right idea on going with either 20-G Deck Green or 5-NG Navy Green (revised). As faded and weathered as the paint is it doesn't seem to reflect light and it's very dark. Almost black in some photos.
I'm like you. I research the hell out of this stuff. I have the same PT books as you plus the Johnson book. I'm getting ready to paint my 1/72 109 boat, have a 1/48 PT-105 in progress, and am collecting parts for the Italeri kit now. I have a pile of WEM paint that I'm probably not going to use. I cast torpedo tubes for the 1/72 PT so I've gone down the casting road too. A lot of money at the end of the day so I feel your pain.
Kudos on the P-40. A very nice job of weathering so I can't wait to see how the PT comes out. Keep it going.
Dave
David Waples
Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Mar 21, 2007 - 7:08pm
Total Posts: 1679 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm
Thanks Dave.
Posted By: ducati650 | Posted on: Mar 21, 2007 - 8:03pm
Total Posts: 450 | Joined: Feb 19, 2007 - 10:01am
Hi Ed,
Just saw your new pictures. What great reference material! Are you going to go with the red numbering? I'm also wondering about the graphics on the chart house. That's great stuff! Do you plan to reproduce that as well? If so I'd love to hear how you're going to do that.
Take care
Dave
David Waples
Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Mar 23, 2007 - 5:31am
Total Posts: 1679 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm
Most of the photos are of the 493 boat. I'm making the 495 boat and where there are holes in what I know about the 495, I'm defaulting to the 493's details.
In the nested Oyster Bay photo, if you have a good copy of it, you can see that the 490 numbers look like the 493's and are probably red with grey shadow. In the same photo the numbers on the 491 and 495 look white so that is what i am using.
The only graphics I know of for the 495 is the Gentleman Jim plaque and possibly the Ron 33 emblem on the port spash shield. It is not the starboard shield like some of the other boats.
I have been in contact with decal makers and mask makers and there may be something from them to help.
Ed
Posted By: ducati650 | Posted on: Mar 23, 2007 - 7:13am
Total Posts: 450 | Joined: Feb 19, 2007 - 10:01am