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» Forum Category: PT Boats of WWII
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» Forum Name: PT Boats - General
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» Topic:
German Flak Lighters
http://www.ptboatforum.com/cgi-bin/MB2/netboardr.cgi?cid=101&fid=102&tid=2692
Guys;
If you want to really see something different in the modeling realm, check out this subject, This guy is scratchbuilding a flak lighter in 1/35th scale!
While I have only seen the two photos in Frank Johnsons book, this CAD diagrams really gives you a sense of what RON 15, 22, and 29 had to go up against, just looking at the diagrams made the hair stand up on the back of my neck and sent shivers down my spine! Two 88's, two quad 20mm mounts, a single 37mm, a single 20mm, plus what ever hand held machine guns might be on board!
here is the website:
[url]http://www.modelshipwrights.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=SquawkBox&file=index&req=viewtopic&topic_id=193358&page=1[/url]
AWESOME!!
Take care,
TED
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Jul 12, 2012 - 9:30am
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
Ah someone made the link clickable. Thanks.
I had cut and pasted the link earlier to view the model. Wow! what a work that will be when it's finished.
I noticed the size difference between it and the S-Boote in the background of some of the images. That's going to be a decent size model.
Not to nit-pick but I also noticed that the builder of the model says the main guns were 10.5 cm not 88 mm.
What an adversary for PT boats to go up against! Even if they had a 40 mm mounted the PT boat would be at a disadvantage because the flak lighter had armour on at least the main guns and probably elsewhere as well.
Those PT boaters who were ordered out to engage those flak lighters had to have had a lot of grit.
Cheers from Peter
"Give me a faster PT boat for I'd like to get out of harm's way!"
Posted By: PeterTareBuilder | Posted on: Jul 12, 2012 - 12:31pm
Total Posts: 494 | Joined: Jun 24, 2008 - 5:59pm
Yeah, F-lighters were bad news for sure.
Will
Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Jul 12, 2012 - 12:59pm
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm
Peter;
They might have had them on later versions(this is the second version known as the Flak Lighter ll). The 10.5 cm FlaK 39(105 mm gun with a rate of fire of 15 to 18 rounds per minute), was introduced to replace the 8.8cm FlaK 37/38(88mm gun with a rate of fire of 15-20 rounds per minute), but I believe most mounted the 88.
take care,
TED
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Ted%20Walther/flaklighter1944.jpg[/image]
Here is another model of one, at The Armed Forces Museum in Largo, Florida, I think this one is 1/72nd scale, it does not say, but is does say 88mm were mounted.
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Jul 12, 2012 - 3:21pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
P,S, also look on bow, it looks like Nebelwerfer type rockets( NbW 41 28/32cm rockets) as carried on the sides of the Sd. Kfz 251/1 nicknamed "Stuka zu fuss" or "Ground Stuka".
Take care,
TED
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Jul 12, 2012 - 3:27pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
Although outgunned for sure, the PT BOATS biggest advantage here would be speed, and Radar. I understand even at a very low setting a torpedo would pass underneath the Flak Lighter. Imagine how one felt when going up against this beast. You would have to knock it out quickly if you could, because there would be no way in hell a PT BOAT would stick around and slug it out........
Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Jul 12, 2012 - 3:48pm
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am
Hello shipmates!
One of our PT veterans on PT658, GM2/c Frank LeSage was on the Port 50cal turret on PT205 of RON15 in the Invasion of Southern France. His boat went up against a German Flak Lighter and lost. Franks boat was hit with several 88mm shells and he was blown clear of the turret and ended up in the sea. He told me over half the crew was killed. The boat was found the next day still floating, and was towed back for repairs Frank still has a very healthy respect for these mini warships. They could not move very fast, and that was their only shortcoming. I have never seen a good model of one either. Jerry
Jerry Gilmartin
Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Jul 12, 2012 - 11:08pm
Total Posts: 1472 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm
Jerry;
While we also have Bob contributing his awesome photos of PT 305 in another topic thread, let us not forget that while PT 205 RON 15 and Frank LeSage and his crew got chewed up by one of these beasts, PT 305 actually sank one!
"PT-305, along with PT-302 through PT-313, was assigned to Motor Torpedo Boat Squadron 22 (Ron 22) operating along the coast of Southern France and Northern Italy. The boats participated in the Invasion of Elba on June 17, 1944, where PT-305 sank a German flak ship."
For an interesting PT 305/LT Allan Purdy/ USS Missouri (SSN-780)
follow on story from May 2010 go to this link:
http://cafnrnews.com/2010/05/returning-to-sea/
Take care,
TED
P.S. Hummm, wouldn't it be nice, if when PT 305 is complete and inside the museum, models of a flaklighter and her other kills were in a display case postioned near the boat?
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Jul 13, 2012 - 8:29am
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
Scary looking beast....
[image]http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x164/willday6/GERMANYFLAKLIGHTER02.jpg[/image]
Will
Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Jul 13, 2012 - 10:26am
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm
I wonder what the tactic was for the boats when having to confront this monster. There must be a write up on it somewhere, just as they did with the Barge tactics in the Pacific. It probably read one word RUN!!...
Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Jul 13, 2012 - 6:19pm
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am
AT CLOSE QUARTERS recounts some encounters between PTs and F-Lighters......
Will
Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Jul 13, 2012 - 6:56pm
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm
Hello friends,
the vessels attacked by the PT-boats were not the Artilleriefährprähme version of the MFP (AFP or AF) - they were not used in the Medditerranean Sea.
The vessels they met were other MFP - Marinefährprähme versions: transport and minelayer versions - but also in the Kampffähre-version (KF, - f.e. F 542 or F 352) the
Also ex-italian MZ-landing craft was used by the german navy as transport or KF-vessels (f.e. F 724).
For more details of all these have a look in this database (the origin of the 3D-models):
http://historisches-marinearchiv.de/projekte/landungsfahrzeuge/uebersicht.php
The entry for F 352:
http://www.historisches-marinearchiv.de/projekte/landungsfahrzeuge/marinefaehrprahm/ausgabe.php?where_value=814
with a nice photo as used as a KF: http://historisches-marinearchiv.de/projekte/landungsfahrzeuge/bilder/index.php?bild=MFP_F_352.jpg&ftyp=marinefaehrprahm&id=814
Darius
Posted By: Darius | Posted on: Jul 14, 2012 - 5:46am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
Darius;
Nice info Thanks, Also Welcome Aboard!!
Take care,
TED
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Jul 15, 2012 - 12:17pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
The Ron 15 boats, after late July 1943, tried not to get into gun battles with the F-Lighters. The 218 was chewed up pretty well making a gunnery run, suffering holing below the water line, punctured gas tanks and disabling of one engine. The Division Leader, boat Captain and Exec Officer all being wounded. Captain Barnes then decided "it was henceforth not considered profitable to engage F lighters with gun fire".
The shallow draft of the F-Lighter was a problem for torpedoes, and the low silhouette made it virtually impossible to see them on dark nights until you got very close.
Steve
Posted By: Nuge210 | Posted on: Jul 16, 2012 - 7:58am
Total Posts: 323 | Joined: Jun 4, 2008 - 7:50am
In Spring of '44 the Brits came up with "Operation Gun" which is detailed in several books including At Close Quarters. Recognizing the short comings of torpedo attacks, the PT's and MGB's were teamed up with RN LCG's. There is a brief write up of one encounter involving PT 209 on my grandfather's site:
[url]http://pistolpackinmama.net/pb/wp_2adb015f/wp_2adb015f.html[/url]
(scroll down)
You can also read the ACQ version here:
[url]http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/CloseQuarters/PT-6.html[/url]
(scroll down to chapter 13)
It seemed to have success but Bulkley doesn't elaborate on what happened after the initial engagements.
Grandson of James J Stanton
RON 15 PT 209 and RON 23 PT 243
Check out: www.pistolpackinmama.net
Posted By: newsnerd99 | Posted on: Jul 18, 2012 - 8:43am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
The shallow draft of the F-Lighter was a problem for torpedoes, and the low silhouette made it virtually impossible to see them on dark nights until you got very close.
Steve, did your dad have any stories about close encounters with F-Lighters or Flak-Lighters? 
Grandson of James J Stanton
RON 15 PT 209 and RON 23 PT 243
Check out: www.pistolpackinmama.net
Posted By: newsnerd99 | Posted on: Jul 18, 2012 - 8:46am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
Hi
in the first post was presented the barge which I construction.
This is the German Artilleriefährprahm Type D-3
Type D3 had cannons 105mm
described above, the cannons 88mm had type D2
[url]http://img26.imageshack.us/i/barka.jpg[/url]
[image]http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/3188/barka.jpg[/image]
Here you can see my boats built
[url]http://modelwork.pl/viewtopic.php?f=77&t=32750[/url]
[url]http://modelwork.pl/viewtopic.php?f=77&t=27876[/url]
Posted By: BALROG | Posted on: Jul 19, 2012 - 9:16am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
@ BALROG: Outstanding work!
Will
Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Jul 19, 2012 - 10:13am
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm
BALROG
I was so impressed with your work, that is why I posted it here. I agree with Will, OUTSTANDING!!!
Take care and welcome aboard!
TED
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Jul 19, 2012 - 4:49pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
Yes they are nasty looking critters. There must have been numerous configurations, from an unarmed transport or oil lighter to the Flak Lighter bristling with guns.
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Steve%20Nugent/Lighters.jpg[/image]
Balrog, welcome to the board.
Steve
Posted By: Nuge210 | Posted on: Jul 19, 2012 - 6:44pm
Total Posts: 323 | Joined: Jun 4, 2008 - 7:50am
Guys,
Here is the photo of F 352 that Darius spoke of, is that one of those Quad 40 mm up top ?
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Steve%20Nugent/MFP_F_352.jpg[/image]
And the result of being hit with 40mm shell. This was damage to the 210 in the action during the Elba invasion.
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Steve%20Nugent/210HullDamage.jpg[/image]
Steve
Posted By: Nuge210 | Posted on: Jul 21, 2012 - 7:21am
Total Posts: 323 | Joined: Jun 4, 2008 - 7:50am
Hello Steve,
the Vierling was a 2cm weapon:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2_cm_Flak_30/38/Flakvierling#2_cm_Flakvierling_38
Greetings
Darius
Posted By: Darius | Posted on: Jul 26, 2012 - 1:11pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
Thanks Darius, that is very interesting stuff. FlaKvierling 38 is a quad 20mm antaircraft gun. Fires up to 1800 rpm. I think Mauser built the 38,
but not the previous models.
Keep the info coming Darius. It's all good !
Steve
Posted By: Nuge210 | Posted on: Jul 30, 2012 - 8:27am
Total Posts: 323 | Joined: Jun 4, 2008 - 7:50am
Hi All, My Dad was in the Royal Navy on MGB 659 in the Mediterranean. This beast was their main target as they would be protecting the convoys of supply vessels used by the Nazis around Sicily and Yugoslavia.
Their tactics were to operate at night only. come from the back of the line of the convoy and attack with all their guns which included twin oerlikon cannon a six pounder, twin bofors and twin Browning machine guns.
The F lighters had a very shallow draught so torpedoes were not an option, they had to be shot to pieces and even then would be hard to actually sink.
As well as heavy armour they used concrete behind the armour as well. A real tough nut to crack!
The Brits did not have good radar like the PT boats so one would accompany the flotilla (four MGBs and two MTBs) to help spot the convoy. He did say that the PTs never joined them in action and once they had spotted the enemy would provide a bearing and distance and then depart.
All action took place at night y the way as nazi air attack was a real danger in daylight.
The PTs were by all accounts very fast but lightly protected and rather vulnerable to the likes of the F Lighter.
My dad has many memories of the friendly rivalry with the PT crews on and off shore.
His is still with us at the age of 93. I have huge admiration for all of those brave men who put their lives on the line for us.
All the best Nick O'Hare
Posted By: Nick OHare | Posted on: Jan 17, 2015 - 1:00pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
Nick, welcome aboard. If you have seen 'Flag Four', there are numerous
references to MGB 659 . Who was the CO when your Dad was onboard ?
The Ron 15 Action Reports & War Diary don't always specify which MGB's or MTB's they worked with. I believe MGB 659 was in on Bobby Allen's 'Operation Newt'.
Another nice reference is 'Dog Boats at War' by Leonard Reynolds ( he
served on MGB 658 for three years ).
Any photos you can post are always welcome. [:-cheers-:]
Steve
Posted By: Nuge210 | Posted on: Feb 16, 2015 - 8:55am
Total Posts: 323 | Joined: Jun 4, 2008 - 7:50am
Hi,
there were also some Siebelfähren, which were used als "Kampfsiebelfähre" or "Kampffähre" in the 10th Landing-Flottilla in 1943:
[url]http://historisches-marinearchiv.de/projekte/landungsfahrzeuge/tabellen/l-flo_10.php[/url]
Scroll down for the "Siebelfähren"-Section and look at KSF 169 or KSF 176.
They were armed with some 8,8cm guns, but were not so good platforms as the MFPs.
Greetings
Darius
Posted By: Darius | Posted on: May 31, 2015 - 1:08pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered