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» Forum Name: PT Boats - General
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» Topic:
Need help identifying this boat in New Jersey
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Hello shipmates!
My freind from Jersey, Joe Reese, who visited PT658 last year and helped us work on the boat, sent me these photos from a boat yard somewhere back there on the East Coast called Greenwich boatyard. The owner of the yard said this is an old PT Boat, but it does not look quite right to me. Can you look at them and let me know what you think it may be? Thanks Jerry
Hi Jerry,
I finally made it to Greenwich Boat yard. The yard owner told me on the phone that the New Buccaneer had been a PT boat, but
he didn't know which or what type. They had no current owner info, as the old one was long gone, so I guess it belongs to the yard
now, but I don't know what it is. I hoped these might help. There seems to be some type of alphanumeric identifier under
the name, but I can't tell what some of the letters say. The superstructure certainly looks like a PT, and there are 3 shafts and
3 rudders, but I've never seen a higher bow before. Modified, or a different maker? It looks like there was a bit of rounded
wood on the port side, behind the helm (gun tub?) which makes me wonder if Higgins or someone else with the symmetrical
gun tubs? Vosper? I just don't know enough about them.
Jerry Gilmartin
Photos recovered from source and reposted here.
Dick . . . .
Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Apr 18, 2012 - 2:50pm
Total Posts: 1473 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm
Jerry, it sure has the appearance of an Air Sea Rescue craft. Does not seem to be that of a PT BOAT, although the lines tend to make one want to make it into one.
Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Apr 18, 2012 - 3:30pm
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am
This is the former R-21-1251, one of two experimental 94' rescue launches built for the USAF.
Lindberg made a particularly inaccurate kit of this boat years ago. I've got one or two in my stash.
Al Ross
Posted By: alross2 | Posted on: Apr 18, 2012 - 5:19pm
Total Posts: 993 | Joined: Oct 30, 2006 - 8:19pm
Al: Why does it not surprise me that you know that? lol
Thanks.
Will
Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Apr 18, 2012 - 5:32pm
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm
Thanks Al! You never cease to amaze and astound me! I wonder what that big mount is on the bow in your photo? It looks kind of like a quad 50 cal mount with those tombstone magazines? I wonder....still a pretty cool find! Do you know what timeframe they were used from? Joe told me where is this place called "Greenwich Boat yard" is in Cumberland County, NJ, along the Cohansey river and the Delaware Bay, across from Smyrna DE. The boat is in the overflow (sale) yard at the Greenwich Boat Works (856) 451-7777
Jerry Gilmartin
Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Apr 18, 2012 - 8:12pm
Total Posts: 1473 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm
Several pics of the Lindberg model on Google.
Will
Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Apr 18, 2012 - 10:05pm
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm
I wonder what that big mount is on the bow in your photo? It looks kind of like a quad 50 cal mount with those tombstone magazines? Do you know what timeframe they were used from?
Jerry Gilmartin
Yup, The standard Maxxon quad .50 mount was fitted. When I get home tonight, I'll upload a couple more photos and give you the timeline.
Al
Posted By: alross2 | Posted on: Apr 19, 2012 - 4:17am
Total Posts: 993 | Joined: Oct 30, 2006 - 8:19pm
Now wait one second Jerry and Will. Don't I get at least a partial point for knowing it was some type of rescue craft, lol.
Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Apr 19, 2012 - 6:25am
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am
Seems like your first guess was a Navy blimp, wasn't it Frankie?
Will
Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Apr 19, 2012 - 10:10am
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm
I don't recall that Will, I knew it was something that floated though.
Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Apr 19, 2012 - 11:23am
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am
Lindberg and Inaccurate are synomyns.
It''s really too bad too as soem of their offerings aren't kitted in styrene by anyone else.
Nice looking craft in the images Al posted.
Cheers.
"Give me a faster PT boat for I'd like to get out of harm's way!"
Posted By: PeterTareBuilder | Posted on: Apr 19, 2012 - 5:19pm
Total Posts: 494 | Joined: Jun 24, 2008 - 5:59pm
You guys kill me...
Jerry Gilmartin
Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Apr 19, 2012 - 10:27pm
Total Posts: 1473 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm
Perhaps we should have a discussion about the color. I think it was .... :-)
Dave
David Waples
Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Apr 20, 2012 - 4:48am
Total Posts: 1679 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm
David - I think the quad .50 was lashed to the foredeck with coconut logs
Will
Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Apr 20, 2012 - 6:13am
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm
The time frame is 1951-53. One or more of these boats were transferred to the USN for trials, as well.
The MAXXON mount (M45) was fitted fore and aft.
[IMaGe]http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i204/alross2/m45_0001.jpg[/IMaGe]
[IMaGe]http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i204/alross2/m45_0002.jpg[/IMaGe]
Al
Posted By: alross2 | Posted on: Apr 20, 2012 - 1:43pm
Total Posts: 993 | Joined: Oct 30, 2006 - 8:19pm
Is'nt that PT 109? Hey you can see Jack Kennedy behind the wheel!
:0)
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Apr 20, 2012 - 3:31pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
Naw, Ted. That's Throckmorton Kennedy, Jack's third cousin.
Will
Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Apr 20, 2012 - 4:19pm
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm
I think the color was Gray, no wait, Green, hmm let me think a minute. I know she must have had a mast,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Apr 20, 2012 - 4:56pm
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am
Hi there.
Are you fellows aware that Dragon makes a Maxxon Quad .50 cal. gun mount in 1/35 scale?
Cheers
"Give me a faster PT boat for I'd like to get out of harm's way!"
Posted By: PeterTareBuilder | Posted on: Apr 20, 2012 - 9:07pm
Total Posts: 494 | Joined: Jun 24, 2008 - 5:59pm
Jerry;
I know you posted this 3 years ago, but here is a companion photo to the one Al posted, of NEW BUCCANEER in its service days, on the Detroit River. Oct 1953. She originally had a Maxon mount fore and aft, and had a stern gate to recover life raft/IBS/CRRC. I guess the stern was remodeled after being sold to civilian.
Take care,
TED
Photos recovered and reposted here:
Dick . . . .
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Jan 23, 2015 - 10:47am
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
Thanks Ted!
I had no idea it was built with a stern gate, that is way ahead of its time. Kind of laughable that the caption on the last photo still makes the common mistake of calling the Packard Model 4M-2500 1500 horsepower marine engine a "Packard Merlin" . It seems those Air force guys always get it wrong!
Jerry
Jerry Gilmartin
PT658 Crewman
Portland OR
Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Jan 23, 2015 - 11:43am
Total Posts: 1473 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm
Jerry;
Yes as far as the USN is concerned this USAF design is about 20 years ahead of its time, I think the first boat with a stern gate was the 36' Special Warfare Craft Light(SWCL) or Seafox, that we had. But it is reminiscent of the modifications that the Italian Navy Special Naval Group (Gruppo Navale Speciale), based at La Spezia, did to their Ex-RON 15 Higgins PT's in the 1950's-1960's, by adding a launch/recovery ramp for COMSUBIN (Comando Raggruppamento Subacquei e Incursori) Frogmen and their IBS/CRRC and SDV's
Take care,
TED
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Jan 23, 2015 - 1:52pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
All,
Just want to pass a bit more info concerning the R-21-1251. I did some digging and it turns out that this boat was designed by the famous race boat designer John L. Hacker (boats include Pardon Me, Thunderbird, and My Sweetie to name just a few). Even with world records and piles of wins, he considered this his big achievement in design. Seeing how this was the last US designed wood planing hull for the US military (Tjeld/Nasty being Norwegian), I think it truly remarkable that she still survives and now rests just a short 20 minute drive from the first wood planing hull PT-3 (designed by George Crouch, a compatriot race boat naval architect). Both were also built in Detroit, how freeky is that! We've got surviving book ends! and they're both in NJ waiting to be restored.
I plan to stop by the yard next Friday to look at her first hand and take some photos and a few measurement. Shame the USAF modified the initial design and got rid of the more powerful diesels. They replaced with old war used Packards. Being underpowered, her top speed was 36 knots. Based on what I can make out on her hull design, she probably was a comfortable riding boat and planed at a low speed, so probably would have had excellent long legs (with the original designed diesels). Another interesting design feature are the removable engine pods. This was another John Hacker design in which the engine, shaft and prop could be lifted out together through the engine hatch for maintenance. You can just make these out in one of Jerry's photos.
I did pick up one of the Lindberg kits and the hull scales out to 1/88 scale, but has been modified to 1/72 scale, which makes for some interesting modifications to the original design. Being a train guy, finding a potential HO scale item had me initially interested, but that is probably as far as that thought will go. The chine line is way off once it hits the waterline and the after freeboard seems too low (to be confirmed next week). The superstructure would all have to be scratch built. Those picture windows in the hull are painfully large. Probably not worth trying to modify the kit.
More to follow.
Cheers,
Andy
Posted By: Andy Small | Posted on: Apr 10, 2015 - 3:48pm
Total Posts: 262 | Joined: Nov 20, 2013 - 9:04pm
I must have part canine in me because I've got my head stuck way down this rabbit hole, but I guess it’s better than having it stuck ….. Looking at the 1952 date of this design and looking through Friedman’s book, it seems most of the results of the four post war PTs were pretty well known and analyzed, and probably would have heavily influenced the requirements of this design. A couple of thoughts:
1- Wood construction due to dissatisfaction with aluminum construction (at least until improved welding techniques developed). Also save weight leading to increased range (important in Korea).
2- Post war PT engine repair/replacement very difficult, so design used Hacker’s own to allow quick removal of entire power plant.
Since someone like Hacker would have been in the know about upcoming techniques from both the power boat design and racing world, were the original designed power plants he envisioned the same Deltic Diesels the USN would eventually use? Timing lines up almost perfect. He definitely would have known of their development and production.
I understand the plans for this boat are down in the Newport News museum. Has anybody seen these? Be really interested to see the internal construction (I’m hoping to get a peek inside). Also to interesting to find the early correspondence around this design.
Cheers,
Andy
Posted By: Andy Small | Posted on: Apr 11, 2015 - 8:04am
Total Posts: 262 | Joined: Nov 20, 2013 - 9:04pm
Hello Guys, Ive been watching this boat since the 90's,
I am a Licensed Surveyor in NJ, and according to 2020
aerial photos it is still there. Not mentioned in the thread
are the motors … when I was there at least one of the
apparent Packard ? V12s was in there, with light green
paint. Also at the time I thought it had a stern/transom
extension because the skeg drives and rudders were
at least 10' from the transom. I thought the wheels were
small for that power and the size of the boat, one was
remaining. Love this old maritime history
Posted By: Russ59dd | Posted on: Oct 6, 2021 - 12:19pm
Total Posts: 2 | Joined: Oct 6, 2021 - 11:04am
Hi Russ!
Eight years is not too long ago to bring back this thread! I had completely forgotten about this boat.
Jerry Gilmartin
PT658 Crewman
Portland OR
Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Oct 8, 2021 - 6:24pm
Total Posts: 1473 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm
Russ, they are a set of 8V71 Detroit Diesel engines. She was pulled from service as a passenger vessel due to the worm damage in her bottom.
Former crew member of the Big Blue Sightseer ex-PT 486
Posted By: Gerry McGovern | Posted on: Oct 15, 2021 - 6:49am
Total Posts: 78 | Joined: Oct 7, 2016 - 1:47pm
Lindberg made an inaccurate model? You're kidding![:-happy2-:][:-grin-:][:-lookhappy-:]
Posted By: Drew Cook | Posted on: Oct 16, 2021 - 9:38am
Total Posts: 1306 | Joined: Oct 19, 2006 - 10:44am
Located photos that actually were posted on two much earlier posts. The first and original post on this subject, by Jerry Gilmartin, and the second on page two from Ted Walther. I hope this will give better context to those scratching there heads on what are they talking about !
Dick . . .
Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Oct 16, 2021 - 4:02pm
Total Posts: 1417 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm
Russ,
It's been a few years since I've been through there, but PT-3 was not far away, at Flanagan Brothers in Fairton. It used to be sitting right out along the road, but the last time I was near there, I thought they moved it out back. No idea if they even still have it or not, but just in case you're out that way at some point. It's right in "town."
Posted By: Joe Reese | Posted on: Oct 4, 2022 - 2:12pm
Total Posts: 85 | Joined: Aug 2, 2022 - 11:02am
Joe,
PT-3 is still at Flannigan's!
Former crew member of the Big Blue Sightseer ex-PT 486
Posted By: Gerry McGovern | Posted on: Oct 17, 2022 - 6:17am
Total Posts: 78 | Joined: Oct 7, 2016 - 1:47pm
Hi Gerry,
Thank you. That's good to know. Makes me sad to remember the shape it was in, though.
I envy you the Sightseer. I used to watch that cruise back and forth, from my permaspot in the water, as a kid. Had no idea it was once a PT. If I had, you'd probably have gotten tired of looking at me, or answering my million questions.
Posted By: Joe Reese | Posted on: Oct 17, 2022 - 12:05pm
Total Posts: 85 | Joined: Aug 2, 2022 - 11:02am
Not only did I work on the Sightseer, but lived onboard her for 5 seasons! What a thrill!
Former crew member of the Big Blue Sightseer ex-PT 486
Posted By: Gerry McGovern | Posted on: Nov 14, 2022 - 5:30pm
Total Posts: 78 | Joined: Oct 7, 2016 - 1:47pm
That had to be amazing. Was the interior changed a whole lot, or still identifiable as a PT?
Posted By: Joe Reese | Posted on: Nov 15, 2022 - 4:26pm
Total Posts: 85 | Joined: Aug 2, 2022 - 11:02am