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ť Topic: They Were Expendable movie
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After watching the movie THEY WERE EXPENDABLE for a zillion times, I noticed most
of the Elco boats had two parallel straight air chambers (by Higgins) mounted above the
torpedo tubes instead the Elco black powder firing mechanism. Has anyone wonder why
they used Higgins equipment on an Elco boat ? I think that's because the compressed air
method is more dependable than the black powder. In making movie they could not
afford to have a misfire.
Victor

Victor K Chun

Posted By: victorkchun | Posted on: Dec 17, 2011 - 9:32pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

You may have just answered your own question Victor. In 1945, when the movie was made, it was safe to say that the black powered tubes were all but gone from the boats. The air compressed tubes were much easier to launch a torpedo from these boats, to make it look good for the movie so to speak. In essence I would say it was safer to use these tubes for the movie............................

Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Dec 17, 2011 - 10:30pm
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am

I believe those tube configurations were destined for some of the boats slated to be transferred to the USSR, although the specific boats used in TWE were not among them.

Will

Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Dec 18, 2011 - 6:33am
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm

If I remember correctly, there was a certain Mark # assigned to those later tubes. Al, the keeper of all things technical, can probably tell us for sure.

Will

Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Dec 18, 2011 - 6:35am
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm

MK19

Posted By: alross2 | Posted on: Dec 18, 2011 - 9:13am
Total Posts: 993 | Joined: Oct 30, 2006 - 8:19pm

Victor;
These were used, as mentioned, not only for reliability, but they were the only ones on hand in any numbers. The PT 730 class was being issued to the Russians via lend lease when filming started, they were all fittted with as Al said the MK19 tube. So it was easy for the RON 4 boats(PT 139, 140, 141, 99, 98, 101, I might be wrong here, this is an educated guess on Huckins boats, they were transferred back to RON 4 from Panama (RON 14) around they time filming started with 100 and 102, but the 3 ELCO's were the ones which were used in the filming, as PT 141 was LT John Iles boat in RON 4)to head over to ELCO and have the MK 19 tubes mounted for the movie and then head down to Miami Shakedown for the filming.
Take care,
TED

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Dec 18, 2011 - 11:26am
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

Per info from the PT SEA STORIES tapes, the boats used in EXPENDABLE were Elcos 139 & 141 and Huckins 99,100,101 & 102.

Will

Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Dec 18, 2011 - 11:58am
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm

I wonder if other boats besides the Elco and the Huckins were used in the film. In several shots, when you see the stern of the boats, they do not have the straight look of the Elco, yet they do not look like the Huckins boats as well. Do we have any evidence of other boats used, or any boats that were hand crafted by MGM as fill in shots. When you see the three boats being towed, you can tell the Elco's, but other ones look different form the stern.............

I just wonder if any other boats were used to simulate the PT BOATS outside of what we already know were being used.

Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Dec 18, 2011 - 1:06pm
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am

Frankie: Not that I am aware of, but there were full-scale cockpit and other partial boat mockups built. There is some speculation that all or part of a 77'er was used in the scene of Kelly's (Wayne's) boat being strafed, beached, and burned.

Will

Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Dec 18, 2011 - 5:16pm
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm

Will;
Message about Huckins PT's in TWE understood. This was obviously a pro-ELCO movie as all the underway attack and all the underway from the pier were done by PT 139 and PT 141, the Huckins PT Boats were just background. In reference to post about mock ups, I understand anything is possible, but the strafing scene on the beach, has always interested me. I always thought it was PT 39, but Chip cleared me up on that, however, with the post of the photos of PT 38 back at Melville in late 1944, this makes me wonder. As of now, there is no real end story for PT 38, was she destroyed or sold surplus???????? She is now the "REAL" mystery 77" ELCO.

Also, I realize Hollywood magic may be at work here, but in the tow scene from Pop Cleveland's Cebu City boatyard, three boats leave the dock with 41 as the tow boat(presumably towing 34 and 35), but when in open sea, at time 1:32 Hr PT 41 is towing 2 boats and all 3 are ELCO 80' boats, I am watching it now via TiVo.
Take care,
TED

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Dec 18, 2011 - 7:49pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

I did some quick and dirty research on TWE. I have the movie on my Mac's computer hard drive, and decided to view it in MEG-StreamClip where I could view it-fast forward-back-pause-frame advance and take screen shots. Below are some images with comments based on comments already posted - check them out.

Dick . . .

[red][b]Just a nice shot of the movie's 41 boat:

Side by Side (Elco) 34 boat, (Huckins) 35 boat.

Movie beginning, 2 Elcos foreground, and four Huckins background. Nearly always seen in this combination. With the Huckins boats always played down, and in minor fill-in action.

Beached & Burning 34 boat, The first shots of the beached 34 shows an Elco 80 with minor fires, and a few hollywood gasoline can explosions. Then after several back and forth cuts the movie ends up show an Elco 77 burning intensely (below) in place of the Elco 80.

Jerry talks about 3 Elcos and some Hunkins. But the movie mainly shows 2 Elcos and 4 Huckins. However later in the movie the 34 and 35 boats are being towed by the 41 boat, and this time in two scenes a third Elco 80 is seen. In the beginning of the tow just the very most forward part of the foredeck can be seen of the third boat. When they cut away to an at-sea scene you clearly see 3 Elco 80's line up (below).

Torpedo Tubes & the Mix: here you see the Elco 34 and Huckins 35 boats both carrying possible dummy MK-19 tubes. both are mounted on what appears to be wooden blocks and the aft end of the tubes have no pressure domes (required for high pressure applications).

Another stern view of the 34 boat, again dummy tubes.

These next two photos show the 41 boat, It has real MK-19 tubes, please note the pressure domes on the back side of the tubes.

Finally two interesting shots of a Huckins boat with two different types of tubes. One a dummy MK-19 aft, and a standard Power Charge Elco Mk-18 forward.

What a mixed bag of tricks on these boats and tubes.

Are we having fun yet ! ! ! ! ![/b][/red]

Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Dec 18, 2011 - 11:57pm
Total Posts: 1417 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm

Photo eight is what I was referring to in my latest post. Look at the Elco doing the towing. Notice her transom has that over hanging strip of wood the runs the entire length of the stern, yet PT-34 has that high arch. I can now see it is because PT-34 is missing that strip along her stern . That high arch threw me when I had seen the movie, thus I thought it might have been a made up boat..........

Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Dec 19, 2011 - 1:39am
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am

Dick: Thanks for posting. I for one am having a hell of a lot of fun with this!!!

Will

Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Dec 19, 2011 - 3:11am
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm

Those compressed air tubes aren't MK19s. Some of them are the interim tubes used to launch MK13s; others appear to be crude copies of same. At least one of the Huckins boats has a MK18 tube. Will have to spend a little more time looking at these shots!!!!

Al

Posted By: alross2 | Posted on: Dec 19, 2011 - 4:19am
Total Posts: 993 | Joined: Oct 30, 2006 - 8:19pm

The 77' boat makes a number of apperanes, the first I can find is as the 31 boat as it is being hit by Jap shells and appers to have a number of fires on board ,note preceding seene where the mast has been koncked down but in the next scene the mast is back up and there are none of the crew visable (lets put saftey first here).
The next time she shows up is as the 34 Boat that is stuck on the coral the best way to pick this is to note the chine height at the bow much lower on the 77" Boats compared to the 80' Boats. this is seen just after John Wayne dives into the water and the camera is panned around to show us the 34 Boat Ref. Dicks first photo of the 41 Boat.
The three Boats in the towing scene the first is an 80' Boat the next is a 77' Boat then the last is a 80' Boat again note the chine depth at the bow.
The scene with the 34 Boat on the marine railway shows not only that the Boat used is a 77' but careful examination of the bow section shows that it has been altered to form a straighter line rather than the normal reverse line that the 77' had at the bow.An interesting note here is that as the boat slips into the water there is a 80' boat behind her and at one point you can make out both bows from a dead on shot, if you can freeze the frane at that point the differant height is quite clear.
The scene of the 34 Boat being destroyed has a 80' boat underway while fighting the Japs and being hit but then as she comes into the beach it is a 77' boat that the crew is jumping off, wether they used a prop during thenext scene is an interesting question but they do a cutaway to John Wayne watching the boat blowup and when they return to the boat instead of being high out of the water as in the preceeding scene the boat seems to have lost most of its hull which seems a little wrong if you look at the actor reteiving the mast, an explosion of that size would turn the Boat into matchsticks even if done by a prop company. Also all one has to do is look at some of the photos on this board to get an idea of how sever the damage to the Boats was and none I have seen here have shown a Boat with its hull blown out from under the deck leaving the deck to burn,also the 50 cals seem to be missing as well as the engine room air vents.
The last time it appears is in the scene where they tow away the 41 Boat the best take on this is as John Wayne stops at the cabana and watches the boxes being loaded at the frount of the Boat, again that chine line is a 77' Boat giveaway.
I also noticed that the 77' Boat is not used in any of the scenes with the Boats underway, mayby she had been cleaned out for safety reasons, the scene with her comeing into the beach could have had her being pushed in so I do not count that as an underway moment!
Anyone find any thing else?

D.buck

Posted By: David Buck | Posted on: Dec 19, 2011 - 4:25am
Total Posts: 332 | Joined: May 4, 2008 - 2:59am

David . . . Sharp, sharp eyes, nice catch. I went over the scenes mentioned and made screen captures, very interesting. I hope to have some time to edit the captures and post them late tonight. All seem to bear out your comments except for the Army take-over of the 41 boat. The shape and configuration seems strange but not a Elco 77.

Great observations David.

DIck . . .

Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Dec 19, 2011 - 9:34am
Total Posts: 1417 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm

In the pic of the 34 boat starting up, why is there exhaust bubling up from the side? Is that where the shorter (not the 80') Elco's exited? Or is this some other through hull fitting? It looks like the boat ahead has lots of exhaust bubbles at the transom. Or did I miss something said before?

Dave

Sorry, I just realized this was the towing scene! My bad.

Posted By: boater dave | Posted on: Dec 19, 2011 - 12:45pm
Total Posts: 18 | Joined: Jan 6, 2011 - 4:40pm

In the towing scene, if in fact we are seeing a 77 foot boat being towed, then MGM must have done some mock up work, because that boat has a charthouse and spray shield around the helm. Maybe we can see a close up shot.............

Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Dec 19, 2011 - 2:56pm
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am

PhotoS show what could be an Elco 77' modified to appear as an 80'. One of the points in this direction is the shape of the hull seen from the stern and the shallower chine. The 80' chin is steeper, raising much higher on the bow then the 77'. Some deck shots what could be the Deck stiffener beams. The location of the hatches and the configuration (specially) the aft gun turret. The earlier beach scenes really show the Elco 77', one photo or camera angle appears to be purposely hiding a good front shot of the suspect 77' with a palm tree. Some photos have over laid art with Red as Elco 80' and Green as Elco 77', the art was traced from the microfilmed prints of the Elco Lines.

Se what you guy think.

Dick . . .

[red][b]Beached ?? modified 77' ?? just prior to burning.

Beached ?? modified 77' ?? just prior to burning.

The 34 on the rocks

The 34 pulled from the rocks

The 34 in tow.

The 34 at Pop's for repair

The 41 being hauled away by the Army - Looks like an 80'

The 41 being hauled away by the Army[/b][/red]

Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Dec 20, 2011 - 12:05am
Total Posts: 1417 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm

Hi Dick great shots,just thinking out loud here but after looking at the shot of the 41 Boat being towed away what if this is not a 77' or 80' Elco at all but something they used to stand in for the 41 boat.
After looking at Victors photo on page 82 of the elco slipper and looking at some of the rear shots of the start up scenes this stren has a point or two that stand out,like the gap between the two banks of exhausts seems far two wide also the deck overhang is two small with a non standard extra timber strip under it and the chines are not as pronounced as they should be, the rudders do not appear to have the right shape to them and there does not appear to be anything on the deck after the day room this is more apperant on a long shot over Ward Bonds shoulder a few seconds later and if they had used an 80' for the scene why would the depression rail on the rear 50's be faceing the wrong way as Dicks last shot shows.
Returning to the long shot over Ward Bonds shoulder it appears to me that the overhang after the day room is a little to long so have a look at that Dick and see what you think
By the way just wondered if anyone had picked up a point earlier in the film this being, after the 34 Boat is stood down as John wayne has been told he is off to Hospital the 41 Boat pulls away from the dock in a forward faceing scene being watched by John Wayne standing on the bow of the 34 Boat then in the next scene taken from rearward the 34? Boat powers up and followers the 41 Boat out to sink the Japs converted cruiser.
So if the 34 Boat was taking Wayne to hospital they would have waited for the 31 Boat to leave but the implication of the scenes are that these two boats are off to sink the Jap.(also no third boat leaves)

D.buck

Posted By: David Buck | Posted on: Dec 20, 2011 - 4:54am
Total Posts: 332 | Joined: May 4, 2008 - 2:59am

Gentleman;
Wow!! There is some really great detective work going on here!! I always new they used a 77 for the beach burning scene, but i never noticed the 77 used as a mocked up 80! The photo evidence sure points to this happening. I wonder if the boat was PT 38????
Take care,
TED

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Dec 20, 2011 - 6:35am
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

I think another obvious point (discussed before) is that the tubes shown on the shots of the 34 boat posted by Dick sure look like mockups. Taken together with some of the other points brought up, I'm wondering if there was indeed some other type of hull used in some of the shots (like maybe a ASR boat?) Having worked in the film industry, I know what the utility of having a "mock-up" hull that could be redressed for various setups (and burned at the end) would be, especially as these things are almost never shot in sequence from beginning to end.

Will

Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Dec 20, 2011 - 7:30am
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm

Will
Along the same lines, of your thinking, might they have used "The Austin Trainer" as the basis of the cockpit structure? According to the Administrative history of PT's, they felt this was a defective training device, so what better way to use it and get rid of it. just an idea..
Take care,
TED

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Dec 20, 2011 - 7:51am
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

Will
Along the same lines, of your thinking, might they have used "The Austin Trainer" as the basis of the cockpit structure? According to the Administrative history of PT's, they felt this was a defective training device, so what better way to use it and get rid of it. just an idea..
Take care,
TED

Don't think it was the Austin Trainer as it stayed there til it closed. When they closed, they were still working on plans on fix it.

Charlie

Posted By: 29navy | Posted on: Dec 20, 2011 - 11:30am
Total Posts: 600 | Joined: Dec 28, 2006 - 3:02pm

The evidence seems to be pretty conclusive when you view the enlarged photo's. I watched the beaching scene several times, and I must say she sure looks like a 77 Footer. In any case, it seems as though at least one 77 footer was used for the making of this movie. It would be nice to know which one was chosen for this movie, and just curious was that 77 footer ever used under her own power, or was she just pulled along to appear she was under her own power.

Part of the problem is that when the 77-footers were declared obsolete adn reclassified as small boats, the requirement for keeping deck logs ceased. And there was nothing in the MTBSTC War Diaries to indicate if any 77-footer went to Miami (although they probably were really assigned to MTBRTU...havent found their war diary yet.)

Charlie

Posted By: 29navy | Posted on: Dec 20, 2011 - 11:36am
Total Posts: 600 | Joined: Dec 28, 2006 - 3:02pm

Per info from the PT SEA STORIES tapes, the boats used in EXPENDABLE were Elcos 139 & 141 and Huckins 99,100,101 & 102.

Will

According to my research, I have PTs 98, 100, 101, 102, 139, 141, and 315 that participated.

Charlie

Posted By: 29navy | Posted on: Dec 20, 2011 - 12:30pm
Total Posts: 600 | Joined: Dec 28, 2006 - 3:02pm

GREAT SCREEN CAPTURES AND COMMENTS. ON THE PT VIDEO "SEA STORIES #1"' THE LATE EMIL SARGIS SAID CARPENTERS BUILT THE WOODEN TORPEDO TUBES ON THE HUCKINS BOATS. THE .50 CALIBER MUZZLE FLASHES APPEAR ONLY IN THE CLOSEUPS: IN THE LONGER SHOTS, THERE'S NO MUZZLE FLASH. THEY WERE ADDED TO THE FILM LATER IN THE STUDIO, AS WERE THE AIRBURSTS THAT APPEAR PERFECTLY IN THE FRAME. DONE PRE-CGI, IT ALL LOOKS PRETTY IMPRESSIVE.
THE MOVIE WAS VOTED #6 IN A 2002 SEA CLASSICS POLL OF THE "GREATEST SEA FILMS' OF ALL TIME BY 2,113 READERS.

ROSS FISHER

ross@dupagels.lib.il.us

Posted By: ROSS FISHER | Posted on: Dec 20, 2011 - 8:40pm
Total Posts: 82 | Joined: Jul 23, 2008 - 10:03am

I'll be. Good eyes. Never noticed the 77'er posing as an 80 footer. Did wonder about the bow design of 34 in the re-launching scene at Dads, bow shape and lower chine was wrong for an 80.
Lightened up Dick's 34 burning shots to see if I could bring out more detail

My first impression was that the charthouse appears to be a later 45-68 series 77'er, but the flames obscure the detail at the front of the charthouse and raises some doubt. However if the boot was removed from a 20-44 series charthouse, it could be an early series boat too.

Frank posted this shot on the message board about 3 years ago and Dick determined this craft to be PT-38. Ted may be on to something.

Wayne Traxel

Posted By: Wayne Traxel | Posted on: Dec 21, 2011 - 2:41pm
Total Posts: 248 | Joined: Oct 11, 2006 - 5:40am

Hi Wayne ,
The more times I look at the scene on the beach the more that I think they produced a mockup for the burning Boat. The fact that when they cut back to the boat after John Wayne and they use a differant ccmera setup that no longer shows the beach,palm trees or the crew says a lot.
the other thing is that only the cabin and rear day room areas are on fire and very intense fire at that,one has to ask why the cabin would burn as fircely as that as there is not all that much to burn in that area but timber, and if that were the case then you would think that the deck would also be on fire but nowere is the deck on fire.
So a purpose built fire prop could well have been made to simulate the 34 Boat in its last minutes, this prop could be burnt again and again till the director was happy.
As to the cabin of the 77' boat on this prop as they had replaced the cabin of the 77' boat to replicate an 80'er the carpenter team that built the prop deck may have had the old cabin and decided to use it to save some build time as this does apear to be a forward cabin off a 77' Boat with windshild and all in the correct place. Otherwise why would they have not just built a 80' Boat mockup forward cabin. I do not think they built the 80' cabin directly over the 77' cabin again as the windshild is still in place and this would foul the 80' cabin.
It would be nice to find out if the 77' Boat was the PT 38 that would mean that one of the first batch of PT Boats was in the Movie that is telling the the story of Ron 3, thats about as close to useing the boats that the story is about that one could get.
Somewere there has to be someone that can connect the dots of this therad, I wonder if M.G.M. has anything that can be researched about the production?

D.buck

Posted By: David Buck | Posted on: Dec 22, 2011 - 4:06am
Total Posts: 332 | Joined: May 4, 2008 - 2:59am

One has to wonder if the Navy would have allowed MGM to destroy one of the boats in their inventory. I for one do not believe they would have taken PT-38 and destroyed her. The boats were still in use at that time, although in the photo (which I supplied) showing the boat at Melville, she does appear to have been used for RTU training purposes. If anyone has some time on their hands, it might not be a bad idea to contact MGM to see what they might have in their Historical department.

Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Dec 22, 2011 - 4:28am
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am

Frank;
PT 39, 40 and 48 were all used for RTU training purposes. PT 40 and 48 literally had new hulls in late 1944-early 1945, thanks to the outstanding work MTBRTU did. PT 38 probably was included in this group as you said, only PT 47 and 59 were used for other puroses, the dehydration tests at The Philadelphia Navy Yard, however, once the tests were completed, I am sure PT 59 and PT 47 had their hulls worked on by MTBRTU, prior to going down to NAS Norfolk for their short stint as ASR boats.
Take care,
TED

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Dec 22, 2011 - 9:53am
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

Found this picture at:
[url]http://www.tcm.com/tcmdb/title/2070/They-Were-Expendable/tcm-archives.html#tcmarcp-149995[/url]

Charlie

Posted By: 29navy | Posted on: Dec 22, 2011 - 11:52am
Total Posts: 600 | Joined: Dec 28, 2006 - 3:02pm

Great find, Charlie. Looks like a 77' hull with mock tubes and a prop dept. topside to me. . .

Will

Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Dec 22, 2011 - 9:22pm
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm

Nice Charlie, I went to the site and found some interesting photos. In looking at the beached boat, you can really tell that this is a 77 Footer, and that the portions of the cabin structures have been made. I strongly feel that no boat was destroyed in the making of this movie, but rather a mock up consisting of destroyed parts were shown on camera for viewers to see. Not sure how many 77 Footers were available for the movie in 1945, but it looks more and more that the shot I posted of that stripped 77 Footer, used for RTU purposes could have been used.

Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Dec 23, 2011 - 3:54am
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am

Some more scene shots. I took the file and stripped out everything but boats and came up with 34 minutes of film. Instead of saving it as a movie I saved the entire 34 minutes as sequenced Jpeg image files. All in all, at 30 frames per second and at 34 minutes it generated over 62,000 individual images. From there I picked-out each camera angle and copied beginning and end frames and have posted the results on the "Beached" portion of the film, in an attempt to identify 80 vs. 77 vs. props and what might be a conclusion.

Now true it might be another type of boat, but it would have to be very, very similar to an Elco 77. In the final scenes the boat is badly busted up - far beyond repairable, with its entire bow busted up and missing.

Hoping the following images don't take forever to download, those with slow internet service please except my apology.

Dick . . .

Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Dec 23, 2011 - 9:06am
Total Posts: 1417 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm

Outstanding work, Dick.

Will

Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Dec 23, 2011 - 9:18am
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm

Amazing and time consuming work dick. So much can be studied by looking at these film clips. Could the boat have been a half boat, meaning what is towards the camera has been made to look like a PT Boat, and the side away from the camera is hollow.................

Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Dec 23, 2011 - 10:52am
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am

Dick

The last photo you posted certainly looks like a 77, specially the front corner of the house where the flames illuminate the outline of the windows. If that's the case, it would seem that the filmmakers burned a real boat, since they would have had no reason to build a 77 mock-up. Given the degree to which the Navy co-operated with the studio, it might be that they provided a stripped 77 to be destroyed in the filming.

Keith

Posted By: kgretter | Posted on: Dec 23, 2011 - 3:42pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

Dick;
Great work. I only wish John Iles could remember this part so we can have conformation from one who was there(even though the visual is enough, and we really don't need it). I have asked him, and he has told me about his boat being used as PT 41(PT 141) and on the PT 41(PT141)he did all the wheel work for the movie, but, when I ask more about other aspects of the movie, well.......you understand.
Take care,
TED

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Dec 23, 2011 - 6:16pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

Hi Dick,
After looking at the damaged forward section of the burning boat I had a look at Al Rosses diagram of a 77' Boats internals it appears that if the boat was cutaway at this point that there would not be very much to see but a hollow space under the deck as this area is the crews quarters and a fairly open area within the boat.
However on haveing a look at this area in closeup from the movie it seems to not marry up with the drawings as it is very busy under there!
Another point again refering to Al Rosses book Re ;Deck Construction both early and late 77' Boats used plywood decks not planking.
Per page 172 Pt 20-44 3/8in Mahogany plywood, PT45-48,59-68,BPT1-10 5/8 Mahogany plywood.
The last things that I can not find are that the deck stiffeners seem to be missing from the burning boat and also there does not seem to be any part of the toe rails on either side which if you look at the forward shot of the 77' Boat on the coral has them running right up to the forward tubes forward support. Some part of them should have survived but there does not appear to be anything in sight.

TIME TO CALL IT A NIGHT SO MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL ON THE BOARD FROM THE LAND DOWNUNDER AND TAKE CARE IN THE HOLIDAY SEASON.

D.buck

Posted By: David Buck | Posted on: Dec 24, 2011 - 4:35am
Total Posts: 332 | Joined: May 4, 2008 - 2:59am

I guess the thing that keeps coming to mind is why would they burn a real boat for one scene, when they had the MGM prop dept, which was perfectly capable of constructing a mockup?

Will

Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Dec 24, 2011 - 7:01am
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm

My best guess at this point leads me to believe;

1.) That the beached boat is a 77' modified.

2.) They stopped all pyrotechnic on the modified 77, which only involved the upper deck structures. This was to minimized any unnecessarily damage. Probably Hollywood cans of modified gasoline with simple charges.

3.) Then brought in a simple prop of mostly a very simple deck similar to a PT. Then using this very lightly built deck, reassembled the 77's upper prop components. Then simply reset the fire for a burn down. Nothing prior eve explain what appears to be very, very severe hull damage. It must just be a simple deck.

4.) Clearly the last three photos do not appear to be a complete boat, they just might show a prop deck on some pilings. It clearly is not a structured boat.

Dick . . .

Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Dec 24, 2011 - 10:52am
Total Posts: 1417 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm

Something on that order does seem to be the most logical explanation. They certainly had cockpit mockups for the CUs of the actors.

Will

Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Dec 24, 2011 - 11:53am
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm

I concur Dick with your overview of the beach scene, one wonders what they did with the modified 77' Boat did MGM return it to its 77' cabin layout before returning it or did they just hand it back to the navy?
I ask because if it could be followed it may be able to be identified
.
Also what do you think as a subject for a model a little differant yet with a history all its own.

D.buck

Posted By: David Buck | Posted on: Dec 25, 2011 - 2:51am
Total Posts: 332 | Joined: May 4, 2008 - 2:59am

David: It would indeed make a great dio...

Will

Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Dec 25, 2011 - 6:16am
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm

As we await the arrival of my Sons and Grandchildren this morning, I couldn't help but remember a photo that I had. If you notice the shot, it shows a 77 Footer and crane. Now, this is a long shot, but could this be one of the boats they used for the movie "They Were Expendable" The crane could be removing some items for the movie, as along side looks to be an LCVP. It sure looks like they are stripping the boat if you look. Just fishing here.

Frank

Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Dec 25, 2011 - 10:11am
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am

Frank;
As you can see, this is a late series Elco 77. This boat also still retains its original telescoping mast, which in this photo is in the retracted position. it also has the early series .50 cal depression rails, which says this boat had the Colt mounts. which means this boat is PT 38, PT 39, PT 40, or PT 47( the small storage compartment behind the .50 cal gun tubs looks strange to me, I have only seen them with a smooth rounded aft end, not the sharp cut off seen here. Did this compartment have another portion that was attached to the engineroom canopy? It does look like connection points are present.) It is not PT 48, because 48 came back with roll-off torpedo racks As you can see, the two 80' Elco boats in the background sport SO-A radar masts, which means this photo was take around August 1944, when these boats came back from Guadalcanal.
It is interesting to note that the photo that Charlie originally posted showing PT 48 back at Melville in late 1944, shows what looks like another 77" Elco(stern to camera) tied up to the pier by the crane and the dry docks in the basin at Melville. Zoom in and take a look. The landing craft is certainly present in this photo. but the focus is the other boat, by the crane.
Take care,
TED

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Dec 25, 2011 - 6:31pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

Frank;
Some additional observations:
This is one of your photos, presumably PT 139, 141, or 315 around the same time as the start of movie filming at Melville. Prior to heading south or maybe after their return.

Who originally posted this photo? Was it Al? This is actually the boat in Frank's pierside photo where the mid canopy section is being removed, again notice the storage compartment behind the .50 cal tubs, this has the exact sharp ending compartment, plus the torpedo tube cradles are still present.

Well this ends tonights photo investigation exercise....enjoy!
Take care,
TED

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Dec 25, 2011 - 7:34pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

Hi Ted,
Looking at your last photo and the rear of the 34 Boat during the scene were she is stuck on the coral I was wondering if someone may know how many early series 77' boats were fitted with the 80' Boats muffler system,( the complete system not the long pipes of the 77' series ) also how many photos of the same may be out there.as the 80' muffler system appears to be fitted to the boat in your picture.
However the muffler system fitted to the 77' 34 Boat seems to be a mockup by the studio.
Also there appears to be no running gear under the boat in your last picture.
To answer an earlier question going by Al Rosses book the 45-48,59-68 series boats were fitted with a locker aft of the gun tubs that was in two pieces the second or rear piece would fit to the section that is visable in the photo of the trunk section being lifted and continue onto the rear or engine roon section,
Still no info on the 38 Boat? I was trying to work out were you might find any information on a boat that had been posted to Melville, is there a record of Melville in the Navel Archives or might there be somewere else that would hold the records?
I also wondered if anyone on the board may have pictures of her?

D.buck

Posted By: David Buck | Posted on: Dec 27, 2011 - 3:57am
Total Posts: 332 | Joined: May 4, 2008 - 2:59am

David;
I would imagine several boats recieved the 80' mufflers, as they probably stopped making the 77' specific mufflers, somewhere along the line(probably in 1943), so every 77" still around in 1944-45 could have had the 80' mufflers added as replacements.
As for info on PT 38, rememeber she was recieved as material/cargo., you probably won't find anything say "PT 38 Returned to Melville".
and if she did come back in August 1944, with the rest of them she was Reclassified as a Small Boat, C68730, 6 February 1944. So this C68730 is what should appear, on a manifest/shipping document.
hope this helps.
Take care,
TED

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Dec 27, 2011 - 4:49am
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

Hello all

I've been following this "investigation" pretty closely, and there's one thing I still don't understand. There seems to be a consensus that the final scene of the boat burning on the beach is a mock-up. Dick has posted several photos that make a convincing argument that part of the cabin in that scene is from an Elco 77'. So here's my question: If the MGM prop department made a cabin mock-up, surely it would have been of an 80 footer, since no 77's are depicted in the movie. I find it hard to imagine that they would show an 80' in a battle scene, then build a mock-up to burn on the beach that contained any part of a 77'.

Keith

Posted By: kgretter | Posted on: Dec 27, 2011 - 4:46pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

Hi Keith,
A good point but one that also must allow for the fact that 65 years ago that scene lasted 20-30 seconds on screen and if you wanted to see it again you would have to sit through the whole movie again. Soooo if you could go back there and explain to them that one day I could talk to you via a device called the internet and also be in touch with any one via vidieo link any time I wished to I think they would lock you up in a straightjacket in a rubber room and thruogh away the key ,

My point being if you also told them that you could stop, play back and forward any movie plus capture and dissect any scene you wanted while sitting in your liveing room the same result may occur. (Maybe with Buck Rodgers around at that time you might get away with it still would not want to try it !!!)

Time marches on and we can look back at this movie and enjoy both the abilty to watch it for what it is one of the best PT Boat movies and when we wish we can use modern technolgy to enhance the areas we wish to investergate.(Something the movie makers of that era had no idea could be possiable)

So as the flames and smoke obscure most of the mockup I would say that someone decided to cut corners and used what ever was left over from the props dept. to fill the deck of the mockup.

Just my thougths on the subject and I could be way off but as I am haveing a relaxing afternoon just wanted to put my 2 cents worth in .

Hopes that helps Keith

D.buck

Posted By: David Buck | Posted on: Dec 27, 2011 - 9:39pm
Total Posts: 332 | Joined: May 4, 2008 - 2:59am

PT-38

Will

Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Dec 29, 2011 - 9:06am
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm

Nice find Will.

D.buck

Posted By: David Buck | Posted on: Dec 30, 2011 - 12:39pm
Total Posts: 332 | Joined: May 4, 2008 - 2:59am

I thought the depth charge rack was interesting...

Will

Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Dec 30, 2011 - 1:05pm
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm

Yes and so far can not find any other boat with this form of rack.

"Home made" do you think.....

Happy New Year Will and to all on the Board !!

D.buck

Posted By: David Buck | Posted on: Dec 31, 2011 - 3:31am
Total Posts: 332 | Joined: May 4, 2008 - 2:59am

David;
You are correct this was a "homemade" depth charge rack, but it was common on the Tulagi 77' ELCO's(This is ny idea, but mainly because this was the only place they had the room on deck, However, I do have photos though of another boat with them installed between the torpedo tubes, I think that was a RON 1 boat). These photos are all from Gene's site:

This might be PT 38, entering Tulagi Harbor, July 1943, this boat, PT 115 and PT 116 were escorting USS Nicholas, DD 449 into Tulagi. All boats were photographed from the ship.

This photo was one taken by amature photograher ENS.David M. "HOGAN" Levy, standing on the hill behind the engineering shack/marine railway, late 1942-early 1943. You will notice this rack is present on the second 77'ELCO (which is a late series) and the last 77'ELCO (which is an early series).

Finally a late series 77' ELCO, idling out of Tulagi at dusk, to go out on patrol. This boat, with the Colt .50 cal mounts, can only be either PT 45,46(prior to collison, where bow was repaired, shorter),47,or 48.
Hope this helps.
Take care,
TED

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Dec 31, 2011 - 8:14am
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

Should have mentioned the PT-38 pic is from Gene's site.

Will

Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Dec 31, 2011 - 10:59am
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm

Will;
I did, in the begining, they are all from Gene's site. Happy New Year!!!!
Take care,
TED

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Dec 31, 2011 - 4:18pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

Ted: I meant MY post of the 38 boat....

Will

Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Dec 31, 2011 - 8:27pm
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm

Hey guys, in the section Elper for sale, Chip Marshall talks about the beach scene after the boat was attacked. I mentioned in one of these posts that it was probably made up. read on, Chip Marshall talks about this being a half boat, made up with 55 gallon drums for flotation. I was right, this was not a real PT BOAT.

Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Feb 15, 2012 - 11:11am
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am

Great detective work here!! Now a hard question. Did the nurse portrayed by Donna Reed get evacuated off the island or was she captured with the rest on corregidor? I had read where some of the nurses were evacuated by submarine prior to the surrender.

Dam the torpedoes...full speed ahead!

Posted By: Michael Snodgrass | Posted on: Mar 10, 2012 - 4:12pm
Total Posts: 31 | Joined: Dec 28, 2011 - 12:52am

Answer to the Nurse question:

[url]http://www.angelfire.com/nm/bcmfofnm/angel_of_bataan.html[/url]

Charlie

Posted By: 29navy | Posted on: Mar 11, 2012 - 7:28am
Total Posts: 600 | Joined: Dec 28, 2006 - 3:02pm

Can anyone tell me what real PT boaters were used in the making of They Were Expendable? I live near Meadville, PA and my Dad, a PT boater, always said a local guy was part of the movie. Later found a newspaper clipping that said Dad's boat skipper was in it too-Lt. j.g. Herbert Punches. Any help? After watching it yesterday I swear there is an officer who looks like Punches...

The crews of the boats that were in the movie were there as extras when they needed group shots (like the inspection at the begining). You'd have to get the deck logs of the boats to see who was part of the crews to confirm them. Any others that may have been from the local commands would be a harder, if not impossible, task.

Charlie

Posted By: 29navy | Posted on: Mar 11, 2012 - 7:33am
Total Posts: 600 | Joined: Dec 28, 2006 - 3:02pm

This thread is appropriate today since it is the anniversary of the events portrayed in the movie.

On this day 70 years ago, President Roosevelt as Commander-in-Chief ordered Gen. Douglas MacArthur to leave the Philippines as the islandsďż˝ defenses fell and Allied forces continued to retreat toward Bataan. Retreat, in fact, was the original plan of ďż˝defenseďż˝ in the Philippines. When the Japanese attacked the Philippine Islands shortly after Pearl Harbor, the then-current War Plan (Rainbow Five) plan was not to fight, but to retreat immediately to Bataan to await better equipment and additional troops. MacArthur, however, believed Allied forces in the Philippines were stronger than the attacking Japanese, and rolled the dice by taking them head on. As the tide in the Philippines turned repeatedly for the worse, and as more and more territory in the south Pacific was lost to the Japanese, Roosevelt felt the urgent need to remove MacArthur from the Philippines.

MacArthur would evacuate the Philippines with his family and staff on PT boats of Motor Torpedo Boat Squadron 3 (Ron 3) on 11-12 March 1942. It was during this trip that MacArthur made his famous [b]I shall return[/b] vow, which he lived up to with the Philippines Campaign of 1944-45. Once settled in Australia, MacArthur was named Supreme Commander of Allied Forces in the Southwest Pacific Area

And forever after the PT Boats were known as "MacArthurs Navy"

Jerry Gilmartin

Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Mar 11, 2012 - 5:47pm
Total Posts: 1472 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm

Jerry,

As one prepares to retire for the night I spend a small amount of time going over any new posts on this board, one of my main interests is Ron 3 and I have to think what did those BRAVE , YOUNG men have on their minds as they prepared to leave Bataan for the last time and what would they make of the world we now live in.

Thanks Jerry their efforts were not in vain, this Board and those that hold an interest in the Boats and their Men will keep their spirit alive.

D.buck

Posted By: David Buck | Posted on: Mar 12, 2012 - 5:22am
Total Posts: 332 | Joined: May 4, 2008 - 2:59am

In Response to your request:
Jeff Sherry
Can anyone tell me what real PT boaters were used in the making of They Were Expendable? I live near Meadville, PA and my Dad, a PT boater, always said a local guy was part of the movie. Later found a newspaper clipping that said Dad's boat skipper was in it too-Lt. j.g. Herbert Punches. Any help? After watching it yesterday I swear there is an officer who looks like Punches...

Jeff I am posting your proof and a photo of PT 342
If you would like to contact me my email is: dshannon@battleshipcove.org

[image]http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt215/BattleshipCove/HerbertWarrrenPunchesSquadron24PT342collectioncopy.jpg[/image]

[image]http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt215/BattleshipCove/HerbertWarrrenPunchesSquadron24collectionTicketandcardfromTheyWereExpendablecopy.jpg[/image]

[image]http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt215/BattleshipCove/HerbertWarrrenPunchesSquadron24collectionTakenonlocationTheyWereExpendablecopy.jpg[/image]

[image]http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt215/BattleshipCove/HerbertWarrrenPunchesSquadron24collectioncopy.jpg[/image]

Donald Shannon

Posted By: Donald Shannon | Posted on: Mar 16, 2012 - 2:11pm
Total Posts: 47 | Joined: Apr 24, 2009 - 10:07am

Great photos Don. I love the small flip up windshield in front of Lt. Punches. Great to see if one wants to copy the boat and make the piece complete with the hinges.

Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Mar 16, 2012 - 2:39pm
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am

Interesting armament arrangement on the 342. Don't often see a 20mm forward of the 37mm.

Will

Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Mar 16, 2012 - 3:59pm
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm

Will, your right, a very interesting set up. I also noticed the man in the helm is real high in the air. I wonder if he is on that flip down seat, or standing on one high box.

Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Mar 16, 2012 - 5:17pm
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am

Hi Frank just thougth I would bring this post forward as the film captures help a lot to answer your question.

Also just a note or two ,on the boat at dads note the original tube traverse mounting block under the mockup rear tube and the same mounting block in the 77' boat being towed off the reef , this would point to this being the same boat.

The rear of the boat being towed away by trailer appears to have none of the traverse mounting blocks, engine room covers, air vents, smoke discharger mounting blocks( the 80' have them) flag staff base, things that should be there and do not appear to be also the distance between the banks of mufflers does appear to be rather wider than the drawings of the transom of the 80' boat making the stern a fair bit wider than an 80' Elco.

Hope this helps.

D.buck

Posted By: David Buck | Posted on: Jun 20, 2012 - 8:52pm
Total Posts: 332 | Joined: May 4, 2008 - 2:59am

Dave

It seems that your good eye might just prove the boat at Dad's boat yard as being a real PT BOAT, with the boat on the trailer being nothing more than a mock up of a PT BOAT.... Good job Dave.

Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Jun 21, 2012 - 7:18am
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am

Frank I do enjoy the feretting out of clues that the movie makers have left us and it would be amiss of me not to point out that without the posts of Dick ,Ted, Yourself and the many others that have inputed to this post the informatiom that we have then the answers that we seek would be very hard to find.

Only glad that I could help.

D.buck

Posted By: David Buck | Posted on: Jun 21, 2012 - 3:05pm
Total Posts: 332 | Joined: May 4, 2008 - 2:59am