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OSS PT use
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On another discussion group, Alan Raven was asking for info on some Pacific PTs that were supposedly operated by the OSS. Anyone have any concrete information on this? Not interested in "I was told" or similar input.
Al Ross
Posted By: alross2 | Posted on: Aug 13, 2011 - 12:54pm
Total Posts: 993 | Joined: Oct 30, 2006 - 8:19pm
Al,
I did a little research on this subject a few years back. The only book I could find that was even closely related is Commando! The M/Z Unit's Secret War Against Japan, By A. B. Feuer. M/Z was an Australian Commando unit, not OSS. But of interest is the fact that all insertions were done by USN submarines. This makes sense when you think of the distances of the Pacific Theater.
I believe At Close Quarters mentions the 77 foot ELCOs reclasified as small boats and transfered to the Army as being used for intelllegence operations. But these reference appear to be hearsay rather than docuemented by primary sources.
Honest opinion, I do not think PT boats in the Pacific Theater were heavily, if at all, used for Commando or intellegence operations.
Bill
Bill Smallshaw
Posted By: smallwi | Posted on: Aug 13, 2011 - 2:47pm
Total Posts: 134 | Joined: Jun 21, 2007 - 3:02pm
Hi Al,
I have the hand typed Squadron history of RON16 by CCS Al Piotter that was donated to STPTB Inc by his widow a few years ago. At the end of the book is attached an 11 page cursive manuscript from Don Shallow of Santa Barbara. In his MS he describes how he and one other PT crewman from RON16 PT223, Chet Bell were at Melville and were recruited by a CPO who worked for Wild Bill Donovan, head of the OSS. They volunteered and were taken to be trained as Naval Observers in the Special Weapons Division Covert Operations. for a secret project code named JAVAMAN. They were taken to a secret base in St Petersburg FLA. They were trained as crewmen on B17 and B29 bombers, qualified to operate all gun turrets, and then high altitude pressurized oxygen training, crash landing procedures etc, Next came training for operating LORAN navigation equipment and also in operating television equipment. He said it felt very much like Buck Rogers.
They soon started training to operate by a remote control joystick located inside of a bomber at 30 to 35,000 feet altitiude either a Crash Rescue boat, a PT Boat, or a tugboat disguised to look like a local craft. The tugboat was to be used in Europe and the PT and Crash boat for the Pacific. They would start the boat running and then transfer to another craft which took them to a nearby airfield. They could change engine speed and course of the vessel completely by remote control and observed it on the TV monitor inside the airplane. He said the rest of the boat was completely gutted, so he surmised that it must be for a lot of explosives. After the war had ended, he kind of figured the boat was being considered for a surface delivery of the atomic bomb. The final decision was not made to drop the bomb from an aircraft until late in the war, so they may have been keeping the options open. I dont know how many PT Boats he was working with, but it was at least one or two. I hope this is helpful. Jerry
Jerry Gilmartin
Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Aug 13, 2011 - 7:13pm
Total Posts: 1473 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm
That is a really interesting story Jerry, thanks for sharing it. It sounds similar to today's technology. Do you see a cable repair truck with weird antennas parked outside now?
Were Crash boats also known as fastboats? I found the below reference to them and was wondering.
[url]http://www.history.army.mil/books/wwii/70-42/70-424.html[/url]
[green]The Office of Strategic Services never played a major role in the Pacific. Admiral Chester W. Nimitz, the overall commander of the Central and South Pacific theaters, limited OSS activities to an intelligence and liaison office in Honolulu. Donovan's envoys were even less successful in their negotiations with the Southwest Pacific Theater. MacArthur and his staff intended to conduct their own brand of special operations in the theater without any interference from a semi-autonomous organization that had its own command channel to Washington. Although the OSS periodically attempted to penetrate the theater, MacArthur was able to close his command to Donovan's agency until the last days of the war.[/green]
[url]http://www.nps.gov/history/history/online_books/oss/[/url]
OSS Training in the National Parks and Service Abroad in World War II (commissioned by the National Park Service)
Chapter 9, OSS in Action: The Pacific and the Far East, page 400
[green]Subsequently, from December 1944 to February 1945, first from Ceylon and later from Akyab, Burma, they were transported in Maritime Unit fastboats. These were similar to Navy PT (Patrol Torpedo) boats but shorter and without torpedo tubes. From these fastboats, the OSS teams were put ashore in their rubber boats and searched the shoreline and nearby villages in advance combat scouting groups before the main units arrived by landing craft.[/green]
Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Aug 14, 2011 - 6:08am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am
All,
In my summary of the MS, I forgot to explain the PT Boat had a TV camera mounted on the bow so they could see where the boat was going on the TV Screen up in the bomber and thus control it with the joystick.
Also, I googled "Project Javaman" and found "The Newsletter of the OSS Society" which has an obituary that mentions the same thing here:
Lt. Col. (USAF Ret) Ralph E. “Roger” Monroe,
84, died Jan. 7, 2004 at home in Newberg, Ore.
During WWII he flew 52 combat missions in B-24 Liberators
and participated in campaigns in Italy, southern
France, Germany, the Balkans, the northern Apennines,
and central Europe. He was in charge of flight operations
for project Javaman and worked closely with OSS
operatives. The Javaman project involved a missile craft,
disguised as an ordinary boat normal to the area of operation.
Remote control from U.S. aircraft aimed the
craft loaded with explosives at target enemy ships in
the Japan area. Col. Monroe developed a lasting friendship
with his OSS colleagues and became a member of
The OSS Society
Jerry Gilmartin
Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Aug 14, 2011 - 8:43am
Total Posts: 1473 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm
Al;
I have read through the messages on the "other" message board, I have always been interested in how the other 77' ELCO's were used by the "Army"? Where is this bottom of page 492 that is mentioned?? Listed are the RON 1 Funafuti boats, which were transferred to RON 3(2) and that were deemed still in decent condition, plus 36. Chip has the written results of the structural survey of all RON 3(2) Boats in summer of 1944. But I have never read anything of O.S.S. using Elco's in Pacific. Only Europe RON 2(2), and RON 15 in Med. I have photocopied a book on O.S.S. operations in Med, Will send you correct title if yuo are interested. The Only O.S.S operations I am really familiar with is those of UDT 10, which was comprised mainly of O.S.S operatives, all their work was done from submarines.
Take care,
TED
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Aug 14, 2011 - 6:38pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
Al;
Whoa! PT 27 was never part of the Funafuti Group of RON 1!, This was John Akins boat, and she was reclassified at Pearl Harbor in 1944, so this list is bogus already!
Take care,
TED
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Aug 14, 2011 - 6:42pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
The footnote is on page 492 of Friedman's US SMALL COMBATANTS. He does not list the boats there, however. He states "Some or all of the PTs reclassified as small boats in 1943-44 were transferred to the army for covert operations in the New Guinea area." The list must be Raven's.
Al
Posted By: alross2 | Posted on: Aug 14, 2011 - 7:11pm
Total Posts: 993 | Joined: Oct 30, 2006 - 8:19pm
WOW!!! I don't know about you all, but this certainly sounds like a version of Project Aphrodite.
that was the attempt to fly, by remote control with live TV feed, b-17 bombers into the sub pens along the French coast. It failed to provide the results wanted and was shut down. one of the casuties was Joe Kennedy Jr. when his plane blew up upon arming.
If I remember correctly, Bill Donovan head of OSS, had his hand in that project as well.
Posted By: Jonathan Eno | Posted on: Aug 15, 2011 - 3:16pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
Al,
Thanks for the clarification, I recall having read the note on reclassification of these boats, just copuld not remember where. Freidman is a good source but there are a few inaccuracies in the book. For example one photograph has a caption stating that it shows a 75 mm recoiless rifle on a boat. I, for the life of me, do not see a 75 mm in the photograph. Having read all of the Freidman books in this series, The Small Combatants book appear to be the least thorough of the series.
In other words, I do not think there is primary source information to backup the note in the book. Until someone digs up a source document from NARA, I do not think there is any proof of the use of PTs in the Pacific to support covert OSS operations.
Bill
Bill Smallshaw
Posted By: smallwi | Posted on: Aug 15, 2011 - 5:47pm
Total Posts: 134 | Joined: Jun 21, 2007 - 3:02pm
Jonathan, Al Jerry, and everyone else;
Yes this does sort of resemble a "waterborne" version of Project Aphrodite, here is what happened to JPK Jr.:
Joe Kennedy completed his flight training at Jacksonville U.S.A. in 1942. As a volunteer U.S. Navy pilot he flew Mariner flying boats from Puerto Rico, Central America, before converting to the B24 Liberator and serving in England at Dunkeswell, Devon, with squadron VB110. After completing his normal combat tour of 30 missions, he volunteered for an extra 10 - somehow managing to talk his crew in to flying with him. Just before his last mission Lt Kennedy volunteered for one further final mission which involved low level flying and a parachute jump. This mission was to be Top Secret as part of project Anvil, the target being the German V3 Supergun site at Mimoyecques, France. The details of this mission remained secret until 1966, although the identity of the crew was not released until 1970.
On the 31st July 1944 a U.S.N. special air unit, codenamed Project Anvil, moved to Fersfield from Dunkeswell in Devon. The mission was to involve the use of explosive-laden PB4Y-1 Liberator bombers under radio control. The crew of two, Lt Joe Kennedy (pilot), and Lt. Wilford John Willy (radio control technician/co-pilot), were to take off with 21,150 lbs of Torpex in 347 boxes and establish radio control of the Liberator by a Ventura mother-ship. Once full control was established and tested, at a pre-determined point the crew would parachute from the aircraft through the nose wheel bay emergency exit and the bomber would continue the rest of its mission under radio control, finally crashing onto the target.
Wilford John Willy, pictured above, was born on the 13th May 1909. He volunteered for the U.S. Navy in 1933 as an able seaman and worked his way up through the ranks, studying electronics and becoming an expert in radio controlled systems for Top Secret U.S. Navy weapon projects. He also became a pilot and was certified to fly various aircraft including the B24 Liberator.
Lt Willy had not seen any action during the war because of his involvement with Top Secret projects - project Anvil had prevented him from serving on active duty. He designed most of the weapon system for the Liberator drone he would eventually die in. Lt Willy had pulled rank on Lt Kennedy's co-pilot Ensign Simpson, not because he could not do the job, but because he was determined to make project Anvil work, the V3 weapon site just had to be destroyed.
At 5.59pm August 12 1944, after all the aircraft had taken off from Fersfield airfield, Lt Kennedy lined up his drone on the main 6,000 ft runway. After making a text book take-off he slowly climbed to the operating height of 2,000 feet and continued to fly on the planned course, forming up with the rest of the formation over Halesworth, Suffolk. The formation consisted of two Ventura motherships (because if there were a problem with one, the second could assume radio control of the drone once the crew had bailed out), one P38 camera aircraft, 4 Mustangs from the 20th Fighter Group as low level escort, one B17 filming, and two American Mosquitoes on detachment from the 25th Bomb Group Photographic Wing observing the mission.
Once the formation had cleared Halesworth the Liberator switched over from manual flight to radio control. The pilot in the Ventura mothership was making test turns under full control. Lt Kennedy, now flying as a passenger, radioed the codename "Zoot Suit" to tell the other crews that every thing was fine. Lt Willy then switched on "Block", which was the codename for the TV camera in the nose used to guide the drone onto the target (Mimoyecques V3 Site). Two minutes later the drone suddenly exploded over New Delight Wood, Blythborough, Suffolk.
The wreckage was scattered over an area 3 miles long and about 2 miles wide. 3 square miles of heath land was set on fire, 147 properties - some up to 16 miles away were damaged, and hundreds of trees in New Delight Wood were felled as a result of the blast. Despite all this, no civilians were killed. However, no remains of the crew were ever found. The cause of the explosion is believed to be a lack of electrical shielding on "Block" which caused electromagnetic emissions to open up a relay solenoid that should have been closed. When the solenoid opened it set off one of the MK9 detonators, which in turn set off the load of Torpex.
As far as the worn out PT boats being set up for remote control/ explosive delivery systems, this newly found info really intrigues me about this Project JAVAMAN, because within the last 5-6 years this type of program has been updated for modern day applications for harbor security.
Take care,
TED
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Aug 15, 2011 - 6:13pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
Been reading an extremely interesting book called Unmanned Systems of World War I and II by H.R. Everett. This book includes a great deal of info on the WW2 remotely controlled OSS surface torpedo Hacker-Craft (disguised as fishing boats).
The book has so much detailed info, photos and diagrams. What amazes me are the WW1 remotely controlled CMBs and all the different types of remotely controlled torpedoes from WW1 including one that would home in on ship's search lights.
The vehicles and aircraft are also fascinating!
The book is published my MIT, and as you would expect, is an extremely well researched technical read. While it says WW1 in the title, the work began during the end of the 19th century. Makes today's Unmanned Systems just simple (and somewhat boring) updates since all of the real interesting stuff was done at least 100 years ago, or during WW2.
I def recommend this for you techno geeks out there. Will take you down a ton of new rabbit holes!
Cheers,
Andy
Posted By: Andy Small | Posted on: Aug 8, 2016 - 6:17am
Total Posts: 262 | Joined: Nov 20, 2013 - 9:04pm
The OSS project with the disguised Radio Controlled Hacker-Craft boats was called Project Campbell. An RCA camera was installed on the bow of the craft and the boat was controlled from a B-17 control ship. An ingenious detonation setup and sequence would break the back of the target vessel and was demonstrated in August 1944 against the SS San Pablo. Interesting that online histories of the SS San Pablo (United Fruit Company) don't mention the OSS test, only the earlier torpedoing by U-161. The photo in the book clearly shows the old tramp steamer blowing up.
A single 85 foot Air Rescue Boat was involved in an earlier test and may be the connection to the radio controlled PT Boat concept.
Posted By: Andy Small | Posted on: Aug 8, 2016 - 10:42am
Total Posts: 262 | Joined: Nov 20, 2013 - 9:04pm
Andy;
Where were these tests conducted?
Take care
TED
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Aug 9, 2016 - 6:22am
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
HI Ted,
From Unmanned Systems of World Wars I and II by H.R. Everett, the initial tests for Project Campbell were done in the Hampton Roads area.
The test against the SS San Pablo was conducted in the Gulf of Mexico. Everett mentions that there is evidence that this project continued under code name Javaman, which Jerry mentioned in his posting. Javaman supposedly was going to be used during Operation Olympic.
The original US Navy project using Hacker-Craft was started well before the war. Later, the Navy then turned everything over to the OSS in May 1944 most probably due to the conclusion that surface torpedoes were too exposed and slow to be used against effective defensive measures. The Army also had a parallel project, but doesn't mention where it began, although the JR craft did operate off of Fort Story, VA.
Andy
Posted By: Andy Small | Posted on: Aug 9, 2016 - 7:33am
Total Posts: 262 | Joined: Nov 20, 2013 - 9:04pm
Fascinating stuff. Thanks, guys.
Will
Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Aug 9, 2016 - 1:43pm
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm
Andy and Jerry;
This is interesting stuff, as it is still current research today.
Take care
TED
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Aug 9, 2016 - 6:30pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
Some additional information regarding OSS Maritime Operations in the CBI theater:
In the mid-1980s I met this gentleman that was a customer of my sister's business. He had served as an enlisted man (Bosun) with an OSS Maritime Unit operating under the cover of a rescue boat squadron. The boats were the 63' Miami's with two Packard engines. The dispensary had been modified to contain extended range fuel tanks. And after they had been in theater about six months each of the boats was equipped with PT boat radar. The boat's weapons were the same two twin 50s but the crew had a pretty generous armory on board to use depending on the mission and circumstances. When they did carry a rubber boat it was placed on the roof of the dispensary. Crew was two officers and five enlisted with the enlisted a little heavy in rank and experience. They got their replacement Packards from the nearby Brit MTB squadron. The boats had C numbers, nothing more. Missions were usually one boat unless a larger party had to be infiltrated or extracted. He did mention that until they made some modifications to the cooler intakes they had to keep the speed of the boat down so the cooler intakes would be in the water.
I present all this as an oral history type interview. Most of the information seems legit but I have not had the chance to check it out.
One last OSS related item: I was contacted by an Army officer serving in Afghanistan about his deceased father's service in the OSS Maritime Units in the Med. Seems he was the skipper of an all Navy crew on a US Army 85' rescue boat in the Leghorn area of Italy. Apparently their missions used US Navy PT boats for cover when needed.
Chip Marshall
Silver Spring, Maryland USA
Posted By: Chip Marshall | Posted on: Oct 18, 2016 - 7:44am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
With reference to remote controlled PT boats I offer up the following information from BuShips records at the National Archives:
PT601-612 were reclassified RCT1-12. Only RCT-1 (the former PT-601) was converted to remote control at Norfolk NSY. And, with the exception of PT-606, the other boats were transferred to Norway. RCT-1 was used as a command and control boat to test new tactics and equipment with postwar MTBron1. She was then sent to Panama City and sold off in 1962.
Another group of surplus PT boats (by now stripped of weapons and electronics) was set aside by BuShips to act as remote control range boats for post war Test Charlie, the third atomic bomb test scheduled for Bikini Atoll. The reason for PT boats was their speed (they would be able to retrieve samples quicker. The boats were to be painted all yellow and operated from an overhead aircraft. One of the first decisions made was to release the BuShips hold on the Higgins PTs as they were deemed not suitable for the needs at hand. And, with the cancellation of Test Charlie, the Elco PTs were released and eventually sold off. The incomplete list I have of the PTs slated for Test Charlie is 456,486,487,505,557,559,614,615, and 618.
Some of the remote control research and development was applied to the four new aluminum PT boats. The fire control system for the torpedoes needed to steer the boat to properly line up on the target. Once everyone found out that the torpedoes intended for the new PT boats were slower than the launching boat, torpedoes, a fire control system, and remote steering all went out the window.
PT-811 was the only aluminum boat that had her torpedo launching racks fitted (this was confirmed by paperwork at the Archives from Norfolk NSY). To date, no pictures or testing records.
Chip Marshall
Silver Spring, Maryland USA
Posted By: Chip Marshall | Posted on: Oct 18, 2016 - 8:28am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered