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» Forum Name: PT Boats - General
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» Topic:
How many torpedos fired?
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I was talking to both Bud Liebenow and Welford West (separate conversations) about how many torpedoes they actually fired during the very busy period of missions in 1943. The number I got was a bit of a surprise.
So now I'm going to open the same question to any PT crew Vets who served in [b]1943 [/b] in the Solomons to recall the total number of torpedoes your boat fired while on mission.
In your posting please include:
+ your boat number
+ number of torpedoes fired (within the 1943 time window)
+ general area (or areas) of operation in which the boat was assigned during 1943
I look forward to seeing the reply posts!
Bridge
Posted By: TheBridge | Posted on: Jun 29, 2011 - 8:14am
Total Posts: 318 | Joined: Nov 22, 2009 - 3:04pm
OK, Bridge -- how many fish WERE fired by the 157 in '43?
Posted By: Drew Cook | Posted on: Jun 29, 2011 - 11:29am
Total Posts: 1306 | Joined: Oct 19, 2006 - 10:44am
My Dad (Sebastian D. Listro) was in Ron 27 at that time onboard the 359. He told me that they never fired a torpedo during action. Most of their missions were barge busting and recon. He was the QM.
Dick Listro
Posted By: Dick Listro | Posted on: Jun 29, 2011 - 12:30pm
Total Posts: 28 | Joined: Dec 5, 2006 - 12:43pm
Bridge: I was aboard 242 from the time Ron 19 started patroling out of Vella La Vella about Nov. 1, 1943 until Dec 14, 1943 when the base burned from a fuel dock fire. The next day we moved to Treasury and operated with Ron 9 until Dec 28, 1943 when 242 was damaged from a fire fight with 3 barges off Bougainville. We were then out of operation for repairs at Tulagi. During these last two months of 1943 we were patroling Choisuel and the southern end of Bougainville from both Treasury and Vella La Vella bases.. During that period we launched no torpedoes and am sure no Ron 19 boats launched any torpedos during that period. We patroled the Solomons , New Britain and New Ireland from about Nov 1, 1943 until about Nov 15, 1944, nearly 13 months, and we never launched a torpedo during that time. The enemy capital ships had moved outof the Solomons by then. We were strictly barge hunters.
C. J. Willis
Posted By: CJ Willis | Posted on: Jun 29, 2011 - 12:49pm
Total Posts: 464 | Joined: Nov 5, 2006 - 5:02pm
PT-157
Source: William Liebenow (Skipper)/Welford West (torpedo man)
March '43 to Oct '43
Both Liebenow and West said that from the time they arrived in the Solomons which I believe was ~ March 43 to when Liebenow was transferred to the Atlantic theater (abt Oct 43) the 157 (RON-9) fired 6 torpedoes (as best as they can recall).
The torpedoes were fired in pairs so this represents 3 attacks as it were.
2 fired fired when they were ordered to do so by the section leader during action in an apparent effort to create a spread pattern of torpedoes by using multiple PTs on a target.
2 fired on the night of July 2/3 '43 when they hit a destroyer (after they nearly slammed into it on a moonless night)
2 fired but can't recall the occasion
Welford's comments is that the PT of RON-9 primary task (although not the only task) was to attack barges (and hence the obvious growth of gun mounted guns as the war progressed). He does feel that having the continued presence of torpedoes on the PTs however made the Japanese think twice before sending bigger ships through 'The Slot' for fear that the PT's and their torpedoes would eat them up.
- Bridge
Posted By: TheBridge | Posted on: Jun 29, 2011 - 1:46pm
Total Posts: 318 | Joined: Nov 22, 2009 - 3:04pm
I recall talking with many PT Boat Veterans over the years, and it would seem that not many fired torpedoes. As you recall, the roles of the boats changed drastically at least in the Pacific. Becoming more of a gun platform, it was more important to add larger caliber guns. Many of the boats even discarded at least two of the torpedoes, keeping the others, just in case a target might show up. It seems that the bulk of the torpedoes being fired by the boats were done in the early stages of the War, when they were the principle weapon.
In the Med, this would certainly be a much different way of life. The boats were more involved in a torpedo war then a gun-ship war. They were often pitted against German Navy Ships, including the dreaded F Lighters, which carried the high caliber German 88. This does not mean that the Higgins boats did not find favor in adding cannons and other weapons, because they would certainly need them to fight it out with the German E Boats, and F-Lighters. I wonder if any records were kept as to the actual amouint of Torpeoes fired by the PT Boats during the War.........
Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Jun 30, 2011 - 4:13pm
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am
My Dad (PT-154) remembers firing torpedoes at a Japanese destroyer ... which simply outran the torpedoes.
natsmith
Posted By: Nathaniel Smith | Posted on: Jun 30, 2011 - 5:14pm
Total Posts: 211 | Joined: Jan 19, 2008 - 6:55am
Nat - would we count that then as a total of either 2 or 4 torpedoes total while he was skipper of the 154?
Posted By: TheBridge | Posted on: Jun 30, 2011 - 5:24pm
Total Posts: 318 | Joined: Nov 22, 2009 - 3:04pm
Nat - would we count that then as a total of either 2 or 4 torpedoes total while your Dad was skipper of the 154?
In general, what were the dates was he on the 154?
Thanks!
Posted By: TheBridge | Posted on: Jun 30, 2011 - 7:12pm
Total Posts: 318 | Joined: Nov 22, 2009 - 3:04pm
PT-154 arrived in Tulagi from Noumea on 23 April 1943.
My Dad left PT-154 14 November 1943.
natsmith
Posted By: Nathaniel Smith | Posted on: Jul 1, 2011 - 4:43am
Total Posts: 211 | Joined: Jan 19, 2008 - 6:55am
"Cactus Control" to Bridge:
I did a study of Solomon PT missions a few years back, but it was based mostly on PT Boat Deck Logs of the early rons. Gene Kirkland had shared some of what he had from the National Archives and I did some more digging. My records though only go through early Feb 1943. I doubt after that time that many torpedoes were fired since that was when the Japanese Navy made their last run down the slot. Some of the logs give some good information - however some of them also were lost with the boats which were destroyed in combat - so there are some holes in the records.
The starting dates and the Rons covered in this research: RON-3 Arrived Tulagi - Oct 12 & 25 1942 (PT's 37, 38, 39, 45, 46, 48, 60, 61). RON-2 Arrived Tulagi - Nov 20 & 25, 1942 (PT's 36, 40, 43, 44, 47, 59, 109, 110, 111, 112). RON-6 Arrived Tulagi 31 Dec 1942 (PT's 115, 116, 123,124).
I listed the boats and developed a legend for anything of interest that was noted on the logs:
LEGEND:
P = Patrol
nc = no contact
E = Engaged Enemy
ft = fired torpedoes, and number fired (if known)
fr = fired rounds
ls = lay smoke and retired
O = Observed Action
ps = pick up survivors
rc = recalled, 'Peter Tares' (all Pete Holiday)
sc = sub contact
sb = stand-by duty
47C = identifies another crew on board the named PT
GM = Guard Mail trip (to Guadalcanal)
He = Hit by enemy fire
Hf = Hit by friendly fire
Destr = Destroyed
G = Grounded
D = Disabled
DO = Disabled, Out of Commission
Dryd = Drydocked
MGL = Moored at Government Landing, as member of strike force
UT = Under Tow
uw/R = Underway for the Russell Islands
uw/S = Underway for Sesapi
uw/B = Underway for 'Buttons'
NLE = No Log Entry Available
(A) Here is an example of the EARLIEST RECORD for 4 boats of Ron 3:
The 38 & 46 w/ USS Hovey, the 48 & 60 w/ USS Southard, arrived Tulagi on 12 Oct 1942. The first recorded mission from their deck logs showed all four boats going out on 14 Oct.
PT-38: PE-ft4. intercept enemy ships firing on Guadalcanal.
PT-46: PE.
PT-48: PE-fr. fired 300 rds of 50-cal. At DD, destroying searchlight.
PT-60: PE-ft ls. G-DO. chased by 2 DD's - ran aground on coral reef; hull damaged.
From the above, we can see that the 38 fired 4 torpedoes, and the 60 fired (but the number was not indicated).
(B) Here is what was found for the last visit of the Tokyo Express on 01 Feb 1943 for the boats that I have information on:
PT-36: NLE.
PT-47: PE-ft, ls-ps. Fired salvos at ship 4 mi East of Savo, lost contact. Flare dropped astern, p/u 2 survivors of PT-111.
PT-59: PE. (Mentioned in 115's log).
PT-109: PE-ps. Lt. Westholm. U/W (2125). Obs .50 cal fire from enemy floatplane on patrol near Savo Island (2150). Took patrol station off Lunga Pt. Enemy rept'd sighted headed for Cape Esperance.
PT-111: PE-He, Destr.
PT-37: PE-ft4, Destr. ft at DD, hit by 5-inch shell expl. gas tanks, all but one lost.
PT-39: P-nc, ps. p/u survivors Blake & Ens. Connolly of PT-115.
PT-45: NLE. [DO. 08 Jan 1943, left drydock; out of commission]
PT-46: NLE.
PT-48: PE-ft4, ls, G. Lt Gamble. Plane bombed 200 yds to port, no damage. Fired torp (2235), retired under smoke, beached boat, abandoned ship.
PT-115: PE-ft4, he-G. bombed by planes. separated. from 59, but went ahead to patrol sta. w/ 37. Ft2, obs 2 hits. Obs 3 more DD's 2-mi W. of
Visale, ft2, results unk due to heavy shellfire. E. to Cape E. at Full. Smoke Gen failed. Obs 3 more enemy ships, (continued)
PT-123: PE. Destr. Destroyed by enemy aircraft.
From the above, the 37, 47, 48 and 115 fired torpedoes. As can be seen from other known action, it was a very bad night for the Tulagi PT's.
This likely doesn't address your question about 1943, but I thought it interesting enough to share.
Randy Finfrock
Posted By: Randy Finfrock | Posted on: Jul 6, 2011 - 9:22pm
Total Posts: 97 | Joined: Nov 27, 2006 - 6:21pm
Nice work Randy!
I am hearing that although most PTs (in the Solomons) fired few torpedoes there was one rare time when a lot were fired. I don' think there is an 'official' count however on the night of August 2/3 1943 there many have been as many as 30 to 35 torpedoes fired by numerous PTs; no sinkings of enemy ships although some know to have been dead on target.
Posted By: TheBridge | Posted on: Jul 7, 2011 - 4:23pm
Total Posts: 318 | Joined: Nov 22, 2009 - 3:04pm
I've enjoyed compiling loads of information and plan soon to slow my researching, and begin writing in earnest, the story of my father-in-law's time in the Navy in WWII, particularly PT's. Some information I was able to gain directly from him and some from crew mates and others that were in the same Ron's. That first-hand information is the best of course.
Here is the background on him: Bill Tatroe, RM3c was at Tulagi in the early days (Ron-2, and assigned to the PT-47, arriving 11/20/1942 and departing 4/7/1943 (the day of the big air raid - and the day that Kennedy was inbound on an LST).
-----
Bridge, you mentioned the torpedoes being on target, but no sinkings... I had specifically asked Bill about that. Below is his answer to a question exactly as he typed them in an email to me on 26 March 2003.
(Q) When did people start to realize that some of the torpedoes the boats were firing at the Japanese may have been duds?
Ans: "When they hit the Jap Ships and didn’t go boom! Also we found them floating around in the water when it got light enough to see. We usually sank them with rifle fire."
-----
That same year I was able to record a conversation with Bill, 28 July 2003 at his home in Rockport, TX. This is some more on torpedoes; I was following up on the fact that he'd told me that they floated and I found that interesting:
Q: “Did that happen quite often; since some didn’t go off?”
A: “Well they didn’t sink – they ran; they expended their fuel and instead of sinking like they should’ve - they were defective torpedoes – so, all we had out there was bad torpedoes."
"Whoever thought of firing them out of tubes … every time you fired one of those fish out of a tube, why - the oil that collected in the tube ignited – and it’d have a big flash - it was drained oil that was left over in the tube... that burned.”
Q: So, what was a ‘hot run’ – how would you describe when they had a ‘hot run’ in a tube?”
A: “Oh, … the torpedo prop was running, and it’d never gotten out of a tube – well that torpedo goes so long – and, then it arms itself – doesn’t have to be in the water.”
Q: So what did you do in those cases?”
A: ”Well, generally speaking, they went on and put another charge in it – and, it discharged again – and that’d push it out.”
Q: “So, when a torpedo fired and didn’t leave the tube, it was called a ‘hot run’. You’ve described what it was – why didn’t they work well?
A: “Oh, that was so discouraging – none of those fish going off! They were… a lot of them, were defective.”
-----
Another time this subject came up when Bill was addressing the Tulsa Gun & Military Club, at Ollie’s Station Restaurant, Thursday, 7 Aug 2008. Here are some excerpts from that talk:
"One of the worst things at Tulagi was the torpedoes malfunctioning. Our torpedoes were launched out of long tubes, four to a boat; I think they were called Mark VIII’s. Later, they used torpedoes that rolled off the side.
Anyway, when the flash went off it could easily give away your position. While on patrol in the middle of nowhere, it was the ‘blackest black you’ll ever see.’ So any light whatsoever could be sighted quite easily.
When a torpedo is armed, the TNT stinks so bad and it sends a cloud into the air."
-----
Finally, here is a link to an excellent article "World War II in the Pacific, 1942 - Dud Torpedoes" -- Fire in the Sky by Eric Bergerud.
>> SOURCE: http://www.ww2pacific.com/torpedo.html
If you can't bring it up, let me know and I can email the document to you.
Randy Finfrock
Posted By: Randy Finfrock | Posted on: Jul 7, 2011 - 8:37pm
Total Posts: 97 | Joined: Nov 27, 2006 - 6:21pm
Randy,
Send me your email address. Kellymark@fuse.net.
Rons 1, 2 and 3.
Posted By: Mark Culp | Posted on: Jul 8, 2011 - 6:43pm
Total Posts: 135 | Joined: Oct 15, 2006 - 2:56pm
Randy - can you send me your email address as well to: bridge@PT-157.com
Posted By: TheBridge | Posted on: Jul 9, 2011 - 5:58pm
Total Posts: 318 | Joined: Nov 22, 2009 - 3:04pm