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» Forum Name: PT Boats - General
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» Topic:
What is this?
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I have seen this hole on photos of the 305. Some drawings show it, others do not. It was on both turrets, inboard side. We have just made our tubs and we are making the inner steps and getting ready to cut access hole. We just dont know what this hole above was. Help.
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/PT%20305/RON_16_cockpit.jpg[/image]
Bob
Posted By: Bob | Posted on: May 15, 2011 - 11:44am
Total Posts: 181 | Joined: Jun 8, 2010 - 6:21pm
Bob . . .
It appears to be a round circular cut-out on the turrets side wall with a refection from within, please see photo blow-up.
Dick . . . .
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Webmaster/RON_16_cockpit-01.jpg[/image]
Posted By: Dick | Posted on: May 15, 2011 - 12:06pm
Total Posts: 1417 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm
Thanks Dick. We know that it is a hole thru the side of the turret. It is above the second step inside. What is it for? What is it's purpose?
Bob
Posted By: Bob | Posted on: May 15, 2011 - 5:34pm
Total Posts: 181 | Joined: Jun 8, 2010 - 6:21pm
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/locker.jpg[/image]
Bob
Posted By: Bob | Posted on: May 15, 2011 - 5:41pm
Total Posts: 181 | Joined: Jun 8, 2010 - 6:21pm
We dont have access to the 305 untill the new building is complete. A temporary deck was built in our old location. From this, the charthouse and machine gun tubs could be built.
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/PT%20305/100MEDIA_IMAG0449.jpg[/image]
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/PT%20305/100MEDIA_IMAG0450.jpg[/image]
Bob
Posted By: Bob | Posted on: May 16, 2011 - 5:48am
Total Posts: 181 | Joined: Jun 8, 2010 - 6:21pm
Here's a view of the MK17 mount from the BUORD manual. The small hole seems to be well below all parts except for the shell/link bag.
[IMaGe]http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i204/alross2/plate02.jpg[/IMaGe]
Al Ross
Posted By: alross2 | Posted on: May 16, 2011 - 4:46pm
Total Posts: 993 | Joined: Oct 30, 2006 - 8:19pm
Al, This brings up a good point, where did the spent shells go? Were they saved and recycled or trashed?
Bob
Posted By: Bob | Posted on: May 16, 2011 - 5:45pm
Total Posts: 181 | Joined: Jun 8, 2010 - 6:21pm
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/PT%20305/PT-295-001-1.jpg[/image]
C'mon guys, I need your help. What are these holes for? Any ideas?
Bob
Posted By: Bob | Posted on: May 19, 2011 - 7:26pm
Total Posts: 181 | Joined: Jun 8, 2010 - 6:21pm
The picture was the 295 boat.
Bob
Posted By: Bob | Posted on: May 19, 2011 - 7:27pm
Total Posts: 181 | Joined: Jun 8, 2010 - 6:21pm
Could it be a way to empty the shell bag?
Bob
Posted By: Bob | Posted on: May 19, 2011 - 7:36pm
Total Posts: 181 | Joined: Jun 8, 2010 - 6:21pm
The large holes were simply there to pass ammo into the turret. It was easier thought to hand the gunner ammo through this hole then try to left it up over the gun supresser rails...............
Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: May 19, 2011 - 9:06pm
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am
Al and Bob;
This is a shot in the dark, but were these turrets ever intended to have a power assist? Either electric or hydraulic, This could have been the access for the on/off switch for the power assist, and it was just never used, (after seeing the problems the Elcos had with there turrets at Pearl Harbor), but the hole remained in the turret through the early series Higgins PT's?
Just a pure guess, but worth researching.
Bob;
To answer your other question, spent shells got the deep six, that is one reason why you see alot of photos with brooms present, not only were they used to keep the boats clean, but they used them to sweep the spent shells over the side, on the way back to base. They were slipping/tripping hazzards.
Take care,
TED
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: May 20, 2011 - 5:15am
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
There seems to be SOMEthing in that hole. Could it be a later addition to the inside of the turret that was just a little bigger than the space available. The fact that is on the line drawings suggests that it was not some ad-on feature. Maybe Ted is right about the power assist capability.
Will
Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: May 20, 2011 - 7:43am
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm
Bob: I don't know what the large holes were for. I never used them in my turret. I loaded ammo belts in the cans on deck then had some crew member lift them up to me in the turret then I would put them in storage either in the ring shelf at the top or down on the floor of the turret. As for the 50 cal hulls- most of them fell down in the floor of the turret and we just threw them out when we got back to the base.
C. J. Willis
Posted By: CJ Willis | Posted on: May 20, 2011 - 1:06pm
Total Posts: 464 | Joined: Nov 5, 2006 - 5:02pm
Thanks guys for the responses. We should be adding the inner steps today, as well as cutting the access hole. Still trying to figure out what the small round hole was for. Power assist is a possibility.
Bob
Posted By: Bob | Posted on: May 21, 2011 - 6:01am
Total Posts: 181 | Joined: Jun 8, 2010 - 6:21pm
The manual for the MK17 mount does not mention anything about a power drive.
A review of the ELCO turret construction drawings shows no similar access hole.
Al
Posted By: alross2 | Posted on: May 21, 2011 - 10:19am
Total Posts: 993 | Joined: Oct 30, 2006 - 8:19pm
The round hole does not appear on this drawing of the turret construction for PT265-313. The circle with the 1 inside, while in the approximate location of the hole in the photos, is simply a drawing key identifying the turret tube.
[IMaGe]http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i204/alross2/turret1.jpg[/IMaGe]
Still, the hole was there as evidenced by the photos, including this one of a 265-313 boat:
[IMaGe]http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i204/alross2/turret2.jpg[/IMaGe]
and this one of a 450 series boat:
[IMaGe]http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i204/alross2/turret3.jpg[/IMaGe]
Notice that the large access holes are quite different, too.
Al
Posted By: alross2 | Posted on: May 21, 2011 - 11:32am
Total Posts: 993 | Joined: Oct 30, 2006 - 8:19pm
Al, great photos. We worked on the tubs again today using the exact plans as Al showed. We cut the tops of the tubs to the proper height, level at the top. Installed both steps inside the starboard tub along with brackets. Also cut out the access hole.
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/PT%20305/100MEDIA_IMAG0463.jpg[/image]
Mold to make machine gun tubs.
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/PT%20305/100MEDIA_IMAG0451.jpg[/image]
Making the steps for the inside of the tubs. The lower step is 5" wide and upper is 4".
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/PT%20305/100MEDIA_IMAG0459.jpg[/image]
Tub temporarily in place.
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/PT%20305/100MEDIA_IMAG0460.jpg[/image]
Inside steps mounted with brackets
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/PT%20305/100MEDIA_IMAG0462.jpg[/image]
Closeup of access hole.
Bob
Posted By: Bob | Posted on: May 21, 2011 - 1:32pm
Total Posts: 181 | Joined: Jun 8, 2010 - 6:21pm
Great stuff, Bob. Thanks from all of us....
Will
Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: May 21, 2011 - 2:02pm
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm
THE ONLY THING I CAN SEE THAT THE HOLE LINES UP WITH IS THE SPENT CARTRIDGE AND LINK CONTAINER ZIPPER. JUST EYEBALLIN' IT.
Steve Tuhy
Posted By: Steve Tuhy | Posted on: May 22, 2011 - 6:17am
Total Posts: 114 | Joined: Oct 17, 2006 - 5:41am
I stand by my statement, that the larger opening in the bottom of the turret, was for passing ammo. Although when at base, pasing ammo over the top of the turret was evident, when at Sea or at GQ, the gunner could easily grab ammo boxes for the guns. You would not need an opening that size just to get rid of spent shells. Check out the movie, Devil boats. You will see ammo being passed into one of those openings through the botom opening of one of the Elco Boats. Maybe I am wrong..........
Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: May 22, 2011 - 6:36am
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am
Frank, I'm sure you are right about the large access hole. The question is what was the small round hole directly above it for?
Bob
Posted By: Bob | Posted on: May 22, 2011 - 8:14am
Total Posts: 181 | Joined: Jun 8, 2010 - 6:21pm
Assuming one of the purposes of the large hole was for loading ammo cans, another possibility for the small hole would be to reach an arm in to help load in the ammo cans. They were about 80 pounds loaded, and only a few inches shorter than the opening. The large access hole on later boats seems to be taller to maybe eliminate the need for the small hole. I admit my guess sounds like it would be awkward though.
That is some nice work Bob, I look forward to seeing her progress. Thanks for posting the images.
Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: May 22, 2011 - 9:18am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am
Frank you may be right for Elco boats where the turrets were staggered away from the cockpit. I never rode one. But for Higgins 242 I was port turret gunner and at GQ I can tell you that Mr. McLane, the skipper, would not have moved away from the wheel to get out of the way for me to load a can of ammo through that hole.
C. J. Willis
Posted By: CJ Willis | Posted on: May 22, 2011 - 9:28am
Total Posts: 464 | Joined: Nov 5, 2006 - 5:02pm
Just a guess here CJ, and who would know better then you, because you were there. I just can't see any other reason for cutting such a large opening and smaller openings into the HIGGINS GUN TUBS. Another reason could be for repairs to the lower end of the turret. It would be much easier for carpenters to inact repairs to the lower parts of the gun tub from below then trying to reach from the top. Smaller holes could be vent holes for moving air, again all guesses here, because I have nothing that documents why they were there........... I will check my RTU BOOK
Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: May 22, 2011 - 10:00am
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am
If you look at the following closeup higgins class 265 drawing, you can see that the steps are at the very bottom and very top of the large access hole. The access hole measures 15 3/8" by 22". The round hole in question is above the top step. Just guessing, but it looks to be about 2" above the step and maybe 3" in diameter.
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/PT%20305/guntub.jpg[/image]
Now the next drawing shows the MK17 mount in an Elco. But look how close the shell bag is to the top step. You should be able to touch the shell bag thru the small hole if the bag was lined up with it. So it might be possible that it had something to do with the bag.
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/PT%20305/plate03.jpg[/image]
By the way guys, thanks for all the input. These little details are what makes this project really fun. Actually the detective work is just as fun too.
CJ, Thanks for your service. Did you have this small round cutout on your boat?
Bob
Posted By: Bob | Posted on: May 22, 2011 - 10:28am
Total Posts: 181 | Joined: Jun 8, 2010 - 6:21pm
By the way, the Higgins drawing shows a #1 pointing directly at where the hole in question is, but it is only identifying that #1 was the tub itself.
Bob
Posted By: Bob | Posted on: May 22, 2011 - 10:32am
Total Posts: 181 | Joined: Jun 8, 2010 - 6:21pm
Might be off the wall here, but looks like a good place to aim a CO2 extinguisher if things get too hot in the spent shell container.
GARY
Posted By: Gary Paulsen | Posted on: May 22, 2011 - 12:44pm
Total Posts: 249 | Joined: Feb 14, 2009 - 6:31am
CO2 is a great idea, but the end of the horn is much bigger than the hole.
Bob
Posted By: Bob | Posted on: May 22, 2011 - 5:07pm
Total Posts: 181 | Joined: Jun 8, 2010 - 6:21pm