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» Forum Name: PT Boats - General
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» Topic:
PT-59 Configuration
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For sometime now I've been trying to resolve PT-59 armament configuration, and just by chance I found my self on a webpage from the NARA JFK Library some time back. As I viewed the page I noticed they had a small image of PT 59, but more importantly this image was much clearer then any of printed versions of this typical shot which could be found in several books. I contact the library by email and about five or six weeks later I got a reply, after several more emails back and forth about the photo(s) of PT 59, I finally had a copy of the image. The photo clearly shows the four gun position on the 59. We could always see the first three single 50 calibre machine guns per side (from the aft to forward), but the image quality near the front of the cabin in the previous images were always very dark and little could be seen. This new image finally gave clues what was there. In the front position are dual 50's in (as Al Ross describes to me, I didn't see it a first) a MK-17 mount and instead of being single guns, were actually duals.
I had always assumed there was a gun position but could never resolve the issue, until now. Below is the photo and also a isometric line drawing I had first drawn in 1998, modified in 2007, and now modified again with the twin 50's.
Dick . . .
Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Mar 12, 2011 - 3:46pm
Total Posts: 1417 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm
Dick: I am glad to look at a good picture of the 59 gun boat. We berthed next to them in the mongrove bushes at Lambu Cove at Vella La Vella in November and part of December 1943. They left and the 60 boat moved in next to us sometime in early December. I just remember both gunsboats bristling with guns all over them.
C. J. Willis
Posted By: CJ Willis | Posted on: Mar 12, 2011 - 6:01pm
Total Posts: 464 | Joined: Nov 5, 2006 - 5:02pm
Dick,
As I was made to understand, as a PTGB, the 59 (or, PTGB-1) had three single .50s along her decks (however, the 60 and 61 had three twin mounts) plus the two twin .50s which were located at frame 22 on the hull. These two twin mounts were supposedly a carry-over from her PT configuration.
Interestingly, if one reads the small section on these boats in Dr. Friedman's SMALL COMBATANTS book, there is a line in there stating that these boats retained their 20-mm guns, but in none of the photos I've seen of any of the 77 footers, or even of the Higgins PTGBs, I never saw a 20-mm gun.
That's my two cents, take it as you will.
Garth
Posted By: TGConnelly | Posted on: Mar 13, 2011 - 6:24am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
Of course, with my crusty old eyes, I could be mistaken, but if you look at the forward twin-.50 mounted on the deck, it doesn't appear that there is much, if any, armor plate in front of the gun mount as compared to the single .50s as shown in your drawing.
The plate on the singles covers up much of the side of the .50, while you can see the entire side of the twin-.50s. Of course , it could be the angle, too. But the one square piece that may be the armor (if that is what it is), looks like it stops at the barrels or just slightly above. Not like the higher rise of the singles.
Of course, this is just my interpretation.
Charlie
Posted By: 29navy | Posted on: Mar 13, 2011 - 8:08am
Total Posts: 598 | Joined: Dec 28, 2006 - 3:02pm
Here is a closer look at the forward machine gun position.
Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Mar 13, 2011 - 9:38am
Total Posts: 1417 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm
I COULD be wrong; but I THINK what you think is a ready service locker is actually the right side of the shield for the twin 50s plus MAYBE the shelf for its box ammunition ...
Garth
Posted By: TGConnelly | Posted on: Mar 13, 2011 - 9:44am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
Dick,
Could that be a mortar mounted along the rail by what you identify as the ready box?
Gary
Posted By: Gary Paulsen | Posted on: Mar 13, 2011 - 10:01am
Total Posts: 249 | Joined: Feb 14, 2009 - 6:31am
I would say what you have marked as the shield is the shield. The ready box appears to be the ready box. I orginally thought it might be part of the shield, but it was too far away and the gun was not at the right angle to be such.
Charlie
Posted By: 29navy | Posted on: Mar 13, 2011 - 10:13am
Total Posts: 598 | Joined: Dec 28, 2006 - 3:02pm
Yes ... But, Charlie, what is marked as the RSL appears to block a part of the gun.
Could what we are seeing be generated by the angle of the camera?
I'm just asking ... I'm not saying I'm right, I'm not saying he's wrong or that you're wrong ... I'm just asking a legitimate question.
No, Gary, that is not a mortar.
Garth
Posted By: TGConnelly | Posted on: Mar 13, 2011 - 10:36am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
As I was made to understand, as a PTGB, the 59 (or, PTGB-1) had three single .50s along her decks (however, the 60 and 61 had three twin mounts) plus the two twin .50s which were located at frame 22 on the hull.
From what source did this information come? THE PTGB designator is not one I have seen in official correspondence and I've not seen any photos of 60 or 61 clearly showing twin fifties in all positions.
Al Ross
Posted By: alross2 | Posted on: Mar 13, 2011 - 11:25am
Total Posts: 993 | Joined: Oct 30, 2006 - 8:19pm
I would say what you have marked as the shield is the shield. The ready box appears to be the ready box. I orginally thought it might be part of the shield, but it was too far away and the gun was not at the right angle to be such.
Charlie
I agree with Charlie. The cut-out for the barrels is visible and the basic shield seems to be the same width as the other shields.
Al Ross
Posted By: alross2 | Posted on: Mar 13, 2011 - 11:37am
Total Posts: 993 | Joined: Oct 30, 2006 - 8:19pm
I do have a photo showing at least one twin fifty mount on PT-60, although this does not mean she had them in all positions. This photo can be found in my new book under the Bases section, showing PT-60 making her way out of Lambu Lambu area.........
Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Mar 13, 2011 - 11:42am
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am
Yes ... But, Charlie, what is marked as the RSL appears to block a part of the gun.
Could what we are seeing be generated by the angle of the camera?
I'm just asking ... I'm not saying I'm right, I'm not saying he's wrong or that you're wrong ... I'm just asking a legitimate question.
Garth
I initially thought that the RSL was part of the shield, but with the close-up view, the top of it appears to be below the bottom of the gun. And with the gun facing almost directly to starboard, it would be out of alignment; the gun and shield should turn together. And it looks like a piece of the mount protrudes in front of the RSL.
The part marked as the shield, you can see a small piece of it above the barrels on both sides.
Garth...looks like we'll have to update your model of the 59.
Charlie
Posted By: 29navy | Posted on: Mar 13, 2011 - 12:13pm
Total Posts: 598 | Joined: Dec 28, 2006 - 3:02pm
You can clearly see the curved handles on the back of the gun, which indicate two Machine Guns. If you follow the weapon to the end, you can clearly see the two flash suppressors as well. There is no doubt, in my mind at least, that we are seeing a twin .50 caliber machine gun set up for this boat. Outside of this, I really love the Sailor on the bow with the Talkers Helmet on.
Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Mar 13, 2011 - 12:19pm
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am
I think Charlie is pretty much right-on with this.
Will
Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Mar 13, 2011 - 12:42pm
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm
I was looking at T Garth's excellent website and found this picture showing the obvious twin 50 cal mount and shield even with frame 22 just as Garth stated in his earlier posts, as well as on his website "PT Boat World" Also, I agree with Franks observation that the two curved handles are a dead giveaway of the use of the Bell Mark 9 twin machine gun cradle. You can clearly see the splinter shield as well in this photo that is identified by Garth as being taken on the PT59. Just my 2cents! Jerry
Jerry Gilmartin
Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Mar 13, 2011 - 12:46pm
Total Posts: 1469 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm
Charlie, ...
HA!
I don't think so, .............
Hmmmmmmmmmmmm, well ... Maybe.
New 40-mms, new .50s ... A RSL ..........
I will think about it .........
The PTGB designation is something I alone call them, because - basically that's what they were, gunboats from PTs, not MGBs from the keel up. So, therefore PTGBs ...
I remember reading that the two other PTGBs had twin 50s and that the 59 just had singles ...
I also that Mr. Ross did have a drawing of the 61 as a PTGB which showed the twin ...
And, the photo in Frank's book supports my statement as well.
Garth
Posted By: TGConnelly | Posted on: Mar 13, 2011 - 1:17pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
Here is a linked image from Garth beautiful site - twin 50's upper left corner:
[image]http://www.ptboatworld.com/photos2/PT59/59-A.jpg[/image]
[b]Here is a direct link to Garth's PT-59 Photo Page a must see:
[url]http://www.ptboatworld.com/Photo%20Albums/PT59.htm[/url][b]
Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Mar 13, 2011 - 1:54pm
Total Posts: 1417 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm
I think we're looking at photos that, if all of PT 59, were taken at a different time, or the NARA photos on Garth's site are not PT 59. If you enlarge the JFK shot, you can clearly see 59 on the cockpit side, so we know that is PT 59. If you compare the JFK shot with the NARA shots, you'll notice that the twin mount forward is lower on the JFK shot than on the NARAs. Note the height and angle of the triangular gussets on the base and the position of the gunner in each. On the JFK shot, the cradle is about chest height on the guy sitting behind it. On the NARA shots, the gunner is standing and the cradle is in the same relative location. Also, note that the turret mounts on the NARA shots have a non-standard three-sided shield on the cradle, while the JFK shot does not have that shield.
This is another of those intriguing mysteries like the earlier thread on the 70' boat with the natural wood deck.
Al Ross
Posted By: alross2 | Posted on: Mar 13, 2011 - 2:20pm
Total Posts: 993 | Joined: Oct 30, 2006 - 8:19pm
Chip Marshall gave me those photos Mr. Ross ... and from all indications - we BOTH believe that it is the 59.
The two twin 50s forward of the singles - as evidenced in that famous shot of the 59 with Kennedy in the cockpit supports our belief it is the 59.
This is one of the very few instances in my life of late that I am 100% sure of my research and my assertions made based on that research are 100% correct.
That is the 59 in that series of photos and I can say that without fear of contradiction from Mr. Ross.
Posted By: TGConnelly | Posted on: Mar 13, 2011 - 2:42pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
I think we're looking at photos that, if all of PT 59, were taken at a different time
My sites does state that the series of photos were taken in "early 1944" (and that date was conveyed to me by Mr. Marshall) ... so, obviously, yes it was after Kennedy was sent back to the States ...
Garth
Posted By: TGConnelly | Posted on: Mar 13, 2011 - 3:05pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
I was just thinking that, these boats had a very large crew for such a small boat. I'm guessing 20 to 22 crew members in total, maybe even more. and tons of ammunitions.
Dick . . .
Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Mar 13, 2011 - 7:07pm
Total Posts: 1417 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm
With all that added weight of two 40mm Guns @ 4,700 pounds and all those .50 caliber guns with Shields, the stress on those boats must have been tremendous. Add to that the weight of the men, and ammo, not to mention the boat itself, I can imagine what the speed of these boats might have been.. I would also venture to say that manuverability must have really dropped off as well. I guess the thought process was she would become a gun platform, not a speedy Torpedo Boat...........
Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Mar 13, 2011 - 7:32pm
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am
Thanks for posting that clear photo of the 59 under JFK, Frank.
I'd read somewhere that despite their barge-busting potential, the weight of all the extra guns and armor of the PT 59, 60 and 61 gunboats taxed the engines, caused the fuel consumption to go way up, and cut the speed so much on those boats that the gunboat experiment was abandoned.
Posted By: Drew Cook | Posted on: Mar 13, 2011 - 8:28pm
Total Posts: 1306 | Joined: Oct 19, 2006 - 10:44am
The more I look at these photos the more I try imagining the awesome firepower of this little ole PT Boat! What i would give to see the PT59 firing a broadside with all of her 50 cal and 40mm firing at once! That surely must have been an awesome sight! Jerry
Jerry Gilmartin
Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Mar 13, 2011 - 10:23pm
Total Posts: 1469 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm
I have little memory of the of the 59 . I was on it for only a few weeks on loan from the 39 which had gone to Tulagi for new engines and radar .In April 44 they pulled all sinking survivors off the 59. Including the remaining 109's survivors. Sent us down to Tulagi for retune to the States. There were thee of us off the Niagara, Davis , Mauer (109), and Joe Brannan GM3c
I
Joe Brannan
Posted By: Joe Brannan | Posted on: Mar 14, 2011 - 2:16pm
Total Posts: 8 | Joined: Oct 12, 2006 - 5:56pm
Joe,
So, you were aboard her when she was in her PTGB configuration? Possibly at the time which those photos on my website were taken?
Garth
Posted By: TGConnelly | Posted on: Mar 14, 2011 - 2:50pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
Joe . . .
Thanks for the thoughts. Were you ever on the boat during a firing mission? The crew must have been huge?
Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Mar 14, 2011 - 2:51pm
Total Posts: 1417 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm
I was on the 59 at Rendova when they made the movie shots of the 59. Do not remember being in any action or firing the guns. Mr Thom was the skipper at that time . I believe I am in the picture on the single 50. This is what I looked like in those days. do not know how to attach a picture of me on the 39. /media/Oct 06 2007/ww2sp39/File0053.jpg, hope this works I am the short one ,other Bill Mitternight qm.The picture was taken at Russel island by same photographer that took the pictures of the 109
Joe Brannan
Posted By: Joe Brannan | Posted on: Mar 14, 2011 - 4:19pm
Total Posts: 8 | Joined: Oct 12, 2006 - 5:56pm
Hi Joe!
Are you the same Joe Brannan that was a crewman on PT305 (or was it the PT309?) of RON22 in the Med? I have looked at many of your photos that were posted on the old Defenders of America website for Oh Frankie PT309. I have a question or two about some of those old pictures of yours. Can I contact you offline by email? Mostly the questions are things like "What is that? and "Where was this?" etc I am helping to restore the PT658 (a 78 foot Higgins here in Portland Oregon) to follow the spirit of how your old boat appeared in a lot of small details shown in those pictures. Jerry Gilmartin
Joe sitting on deck of PT305
Joe on PT305 at speed
PT305 Bar Fly with crew on bow
PT303 damaged when it collided with PT305 stern
PT305 collision damge from PT303
Jerry Gilmartin
Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Mar 14, 2011 - 7:04pm
Total Posts: 1469 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm