The PT Boat Forum
http://www.ptboatforum.com/cgi-bin/MB2/netboard.cgi


» Forum Category: PT Boats of WWII
http://www.ptboatforum.com/cgi-bin/MB2/netboard.cgi?cid=101&fct=showf


» Forum Name: PT Boats - General
http://www.ptboatforum.com/cgi-bin/MB2/netboard.cgi?fct=gotoforum&cid=101&fid=102


» Topic: ELCO vs HIGGINS
http://www.ptboatforum.com/cgi-bin/MB2/netboardr.cgi?cid=101&fid=102&tid=205



For years people have asked me as they stolled into my Exhibits the stark differences between the Elco and the Higgins PT Boats. Of course we go over the obvious of the standard design differences, smaller crews quarters, larger engine room layout, different rudders, ect. I guess the big question that has probably been asked a thousand times. WHICH WAS THE BETTER BOAT................



Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Jan 5, 2007 - 8:00pm
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am



Well, i would have to say the Elco-not for any of the obvious reasons, As a kid looking in all my grandpas navy stuff, it seemed to be the boat I saw more of (other than the PT73-ole vosper). So that being the case it was the boat i drew alot of, it just seemed so sleek and rreally cool.



Posted By: VCR | Posted on: Jan 5, 2007 - 8:15pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered



It's a question guaranteed to start a lively "discussion" at PT bull sessions. From everything I've read and according to all the PT vets I've talked to or interviewed over the last 15 years the conclusion I've come to is that-- assuming equal physical condition-- the Higgins maneuvered a bit better and was a bit faster. On the other hand everyone I've talked to who served on a Higgins boat said it was a pretty wet ride at speed.

The Elco had better crew accomodations and working spaces inside the boat (except for the engine room) and had a more comfortable and drier ride, relatively speaking.

My personal opinion having been on board both is that the Elco is the better "boat" in terms of overall layout and design. But in terms of the mission, the Higgins was just as competent as the Elco.


C. Marin Faure
Sammamish, Washington

Posted By: C Marin Faure | Posted on: Jan 5, 2007 - 10:48pm
Total Posts: 27 | Joined: Dec 20, 2006 - 11:43pm



Frank,

There is ONLY one choice here - the 80 foot Elco MAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They RULE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Garth[:-grin-:]

You've got a question, I've got an answer.

Posted By: TGarth Connelly | Posted on: Jan 10, 2007 - 6:24am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered



I can't believe you guys like Elco better than the obviously superior boat, the 78 foot Higgins! At least there are more surviving examples today of the Higgins 78 foot boat, as I count them there are still 4 Higgins boats around (PT305, PT309, PT659 and PT761 while only 2 80 foot Elcos survive, (PT617 and PT485) the Higgins boats ___must___ have been built better to survive for so long! And as far as speed I dont think anything could touch the Higgins Hellcat! Just In My Own Humble opinion, which may be biased since I have been able to pilot the PT658 underway at 23 knots last summer. Dont be worried we should be able to get the center engine operational by springtime, and then maybe it will go 45 knots! I cant really speak out though on this debate, since I am __not___ a WW2 PT Boat veteran, and they are the true judges! Jerry

Jerry Gilmartin

Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Jan 10, 2007 - 8:15am
Total Posts: 1469 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm



When I visited Battleship Cove two summers ago, I boarded the Higgins for the first time. I am thankful that I served aboard an Elco. Whomever the guide was (Shannon was at the annual reunion at the time), he had served on a Higgins and he told me that the Elco was the Cadillac and the Higgins was the Chevvy. ...That coming from a member of a crew on a Higgins.



Posted By: Russell Pullano | Posted on: Jan 10, 2007 - 11:13am
Total Posts: 131 | Joined: Oct 23, 2006 - 7:31am



Jerry -------

ELCOs RUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUULE!

And, you don't fergit that ...............

See ya.

Garth

You've got a question, I've got an answer.

Posted By: TGarth Connelly | Posted on: Jan 10, 2007 - 12:06pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered



And, oh Jerry,


The 486 and 615 are still around - Elcos.

See ya

You've got a question, I've got an answer.

Posted By: TGarth Connelly | Posted on: Jan 10, 2007 - 12:08pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered



Frank:
I never rode an Elco boat but rode a Higgins (PT 242) 13 months in the Solomons. From observation when running with Elco's - they were a sleek boat and seemed to ride higher in the bow and probably had less spray. As far as speed sometimes we could out run Elco's and sometimes they would beat us. If a boat had been in dry dock recently and had a clean bottom they were faster also new engines made a big difference. I do believe the Higgins was a tougher boat. We made 85 patrols in some of the roughest water imaginable and never cracked a rib or had any damage while I was aboard. It seemed we were always available for patrol. Of course we had a good crew of motormacs that kept the engines in good shape. I loved the sound of the Elco's when they fired up with open mufflers - it was a sweet sound. The Higgins had the underwater exhausts. The Elco's could and did start some fires at the fuel dock when they started up with open exhausts. I liked the Higgins but we had a great crew with two good officers to keep everthing going. We were the first Higgins squadron in the Solomons and I think we proved that we were just as durable and good as any of the Elco Squadrons.

C. J. Willis

Posted By: CJ Willis | Posted on: Jan 10, 2007 - 12:11pm
Total Posts: 464 | Joined: Nov 5, 2006 - 5:02pm



One of the apparent advantages of the Elco was the positioning of some of its armament. Higgins vets please correct me if I'm wrong, but the staggered placement of the Elco's .50 cal. turrets would seem to provide some firepower advantages in that both pairs of guns could be brought to bear on a target from some angles. The side-by-side arrangement of the Higgins turrets (and early Elcos) would seem to prevent that.

Also the somewhat larger area of forward deck on the Elco would seem to offer a few more opportunities for the mounting of additional weapons like extra 20mm or 37mm guns.

I would think that motor macs preferred the Higgins because of the greatly increased space around the the engines and the fact that all three engines were direct drive, eliminating the need to maintain or repair the Vee-drives of the Elco's wing engines.

Knowing Higgins' reputation in boatbuilding I have no problem believing the Higgins PT was stoutly built. It was probably a toss-up in this regard between the Higgins and Elco boats. Operational environment, the type of action seen, and the maintanance capabilities of the base I'm sure had a far greater impact on the physical condition of a boat than the name on the builder's plate.

I think the number and type of the PT boats in existance today is irrelevant in terms of indicating which boat might have been better built. As I understand it the boats in existance today were all very-late-war or were launched after the conclusion of the war, and that for whatever reason weren't scrapped or sold off. Or were boats used in US waters. As opposed to a boat commissioned in a squadron in 1943 and that fought through the next several years in a combat theatre.

So the fact there are a few more Higgins boats in existance today simply means there are a few more Higgins boats in existance today. I don't believe it is any indicator of the relative quality of the two manufacturers.

The aesthetics of boat design is largely in the eye of the beholder. I happen to prefer the lines of the Elco 80' boat, but I have talked to plenty of people, vets and younger types, who prefer the simpler lines of the Higgins.


C. Marin Faure
Sammamish, Washington

Posted By: C Marin Faure | Posted on: Jan 10, 2007 - 2:45pm
Total Posts: 27 | Joined: Dec 20, 2006 - 11:43pm



One would tend to prefer the Elco PT Boat because frankly it was all we ever saw as young kids growing up. As a 10 year old in 1967, all I ever saw in the stores was the Elco PT 109 model. I never even knew another PT Boat existed until I was old enough to do my own research. The two movies produced that dealt with PT Boats showed the Elco design. PT 109 in its wonderful attempt to copy the 80 footer, and of course the 1945 splender They Were Expendable.

The second movie used real 80 footers and I must say, seeing them dance across the water tends to stick in ones mind. There is nothing like the sound of the Elco as she is going thru her start up wine, with the mufflers popping, and that gurrgling sound above the water line. Her keen and sleek lines leave one breathless and one look at her and you are instantly in love. One must agree that before all the weapons were stuffed on her decks, she looked like a racing grey hound, a corvette getting ready for the big race. . I am sure we have all seen the Elco 103 class with her twin 50's proudly pointing upward and her long torpedo tubes just waiting for the chance to launch an all out attack. No 37MM up front, no 20MM as well. In the back no large 40MM, and no Radar Mast. She was a thing of beauty.

One PT Crewmen once said to me that the Higgins was the box we used to ship over our Elco. It proves just how loyal one can be when it came to his boat. In all fairness to the Higgins, it just was not in the public eye as was the Elco. I own over 275 original ads all dealing with the PT Boats, and I think I have maybe 6 or 7 dealing with the Higgins PT Boats, the rest all Elco.

There is no doubt that the Higgins Hellcat might have been one of the best boats built, but of course it was not put into production. I had heard the speed and turning power were unmatched. The end result here. It seems for those of us who never set foot aboard a PT Boat, we prefer the sleek look and design of the Elco. This above all other things is the number one reason most of us have one, two, maybe three Elco models in our collections.



Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Jan 10, 2007 - 3:42pm
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am



What's weird is that some of the boats used in THEY WERE EXPENDABLE were built by Huckins. I understand the workmanship on the Huckins was incredible, more along the lines of a yacht than a warship. Of course, they were built in limited numbers and never saw combat.

Will

Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Jan 10, 2007 - 4:15pm
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm



Frank---

You are clearly far more knowledgeable about the PT paraphanalia that's been produced over the years than I am. I've built two Revell PT-109 models, one as a kid (that model is long gone) and one in the early 90s as part of my gathering PT information for my current project. (However I numbered it 117 to go with a series of photos of that boat that I have.)

I've also built a model of a WWII Vosper PT, and I know there are models out there of E-boats.

Has anyone ever produced a model (plastic Revell-type, not custom-made) of a Higgins PT?


C. Marin Faure
Sammamish, Washington

Posted By: C Marin Faure | Posted on: Jan 10, 2007 - 5:41pm
Total Posts: 27 | Joined: Dec 20, 2006 - 11:43pm



Early around 1960's Revelle produced a couple of Higgins PT Boat Kits, which you can sometimes find on EBAY. I think there may even be one produced in the 50's as well. Mostly everything that was done represented the Elco PT Boat. There are larger kits out there that you can make statec display or RC. I have one of the John Haynes Higgins models in 1/24th scale and it is a beauty. The Hull is fiberglass and the parts are just remarkable. A bit expensive, but you can make her into any boat you wish. He also carries the Elco boat. I am sure there are more guys on the message board that can direct you as to whats out there for Higgins models, although I don't think you will find many. Garth Connelly is very versed on the subject. You can contact him by checking this weeks posts.



Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Jan 10, 2007 - 10:04pm
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am



Frank,

Welp, now. There you go again sir. Taking my name in vain again. Shame on you, now stop it.

OK. Onto business, as for Higgins kits, other than that darned Revell kit that goes back to the 50s, John R. Haynes's big scale kit, the MOSQUITO HOBBIES kits, which are big kits, I am not aware of any of the Higgins PT other than the JAG 1:350 resin kit (which I'm not sure is produced anymore) and the PT DOCKYARD's war-gaming scale models...

Although .....................................

Garth

You've got a question, I've got an answer.

Posted By: TGarth Connelly | Posted on: Jan 12, 2007 - 9:52am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered



Garth:

I would never take your name in vain, you know that. Now, get out that reference book because I am sure more questions will follow.



Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Jan 13, 2007 - 6:26am
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am



That's all I know at this time .......

You've got a question, I've got an answer.

Posted By: TGarth Connelly | Posted on: Jan 15, 2007 - 6:31am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered