The PT Boat Forum
http://www.ptboatforum.com/cgi-bin/MB2/netboard.cgi

ť Forum Category: PT Boats of WWII
http://www.ptboatforum.com/cgi-bin/MB2/netboard.cgi?cid=101&fct=showf

ť Forum Name: PT Boats - General
http://www.ptboatforum.com/cgi-bin/MB2/netboard.cgi?fct=gotoforum&cid=101&fid=102

ť Topic: Deck deadlights: were they painted over?
http://www.ptboatforum.com/cgi-bin/MB2/netboardr.cgi?cid=101&fid=102&tid=1831

It's my understanding that all the glass window surfaces (and the Plexiglas windshield) and that could reflect sunlight/moonlight were painted over when the PT were given their green paint job in the Pacific. [b]Would that have included the many, many deadlights in the deck?[/b]

If so I would wonder why ELCO should have continued including these in production? They have a lot of production time in them and 24 screws per deadlight to install

Posted By: TheBridge | Posted on: Jun 7, 2010 - 8:59am
Total Posts: 318 | Joined: Nov 22, 2009 - 3:04pm

Deadlights were most assuredly painted over. Light leaking from anywhere on the boat was a huge concern to any PT BOAT SKIPPER, and they did whatever was needed to stop that leakage. Some even put tape over their Helm dials, leaving just enough to read the guages.

Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Jun 7, 2010 - 9:44am
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am

Bridge,

I wondered for years about the replacement of the 80' Elco windshields with either light armor or wood, and after looking at many a photo posted here on the Message Board, I (as well as many other posters on the Board) have realized that most of the early boat's windshields were simply painted over in whatever color the boat was painted -- green, gray, camouflaged color combinations -- whatever.

The painted-over plexiglass windshields even seem to have warped or sagged in the same places on a lot of the boats.

You see a lot of the later boat's windshields with wood planking bolted/screwed over or in place of the windshields, but most of the early 80-footers (and 77-footers) windshields were painted over.

The 157's windshield was clearly painted over in those photos of her that have recently been posted here.

Posted By: Drew Cook | Posted on: Jun 7, 2010 - 7:10pm
Total Posts: 1306 | Joined: Oct 19, 2006 - 10:44am

Well, I think it depends on the boat. I wrote to Mr. Keresey and he told me that the two windows on the forward side of the chart house were painted over, but the various side windows were not. All of these windows had internal hatches to shut out light. The deadlights (as somebody recently posted) had a sliding shield that could be opened or closed from inside the boat. I suspect they were mostly left closed.

Looking at photos I can't tell. It does appear that the number of deadlights were reduced on later boats. I would think that if they decided in the field they were useless they would have been eliminated at the factory. Just me thinking though. No proof of that.

From a modeling perspective I glossed up all those little deadlights on my 1/72 PT and then dry brushed over the frames which left only the glass parts glossy. I've decided that they don't look right so I'm going to shoot them with a flat finish. You have to know that even left unpainted they got dirty and I would be surprised if anyone bothered to clean them very well.

That's my two cents.
Dave

David Waples

Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Jun 7, 2010 - 8:12pm
Total Posts: 1679 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm

I'll say what I have said several times. Operational PT boats met no general standards, but were fixed the way the current crews wanted. Some had painted over plastic to minimize glare and others in the same squadron wanted the incoming light. Ours were painted over and we had no closure means. Most everybody painted the windscreen or removed it because it reflected so much moonlight. I think it is safe to say there were no two PT boats alike, at least in the Pacific.

Posted By: BobPic | Posted on: Jun 8, 2010 - 5:33am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

Great obversation, Bob. It just makes common sense that with the conditions the boats often operated under and the jobs they were tasked with, many individual boats would take on their own "personality"...

Will

Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Jun 8, 2010 - 6:19am
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm

Bob, who would lnow better then those that were there. Your input is a most important lesson for me and others who visit this site..........

Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Jun 8, 2010 - 6:24am
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am

[b]Windshield:[/b] I noticed in the ELCO blueprints the original windshields were Plexiglas which accounts for the sagging that occurs between the frame supports (likely crewman standing at the bridge holding on to the top edges while underway). In one photo of the 154 you can see the plex is actually split in front of the helmsman.

From a modeling perspective, after reviewing the windshield using the Dick Washichek collection of ELCO blueprints as my guide I recently removed what I had as a piece of painted wood as the windshield with a much thinner piece of clear plastic that I bent to reflect to 'fatigue sag' and put a light paint coat on it. I'm much happier with this more accurate representation.

[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Bridge%20Carney/P1020314.jpg[/image]

[b]Painting of the boats[/b]: I had also read on a model builder's message board some time ago that the crews painted their own boats but such was not the case, at least, with the 157 according to the torpedoman (Welford West) when I asked this very question a few months ago. It was done by a crew assigned to painting boats. This was soon after arrival in the Pacific. I also heard from Jack Russ that he was on one of the PT paint crews until he got assigned as QM to the 157 (replacing Dewilde)

BTW: I asked Welford (89-years old and willing to do so) to go to Home Depot and look at all the shades of green and select which was closest to the color of the 157 (and this was because he was sure he could do so). He did so and chose from the Martha Stewart Living color swatches (he did realize that so don't razz him about it) and chose:
[b]DILL (MSL094)[/b] as the initial color right after painting
[b]OOLONG TEA (MSL093)[/b] and the color that it turned to after the DILL shade faded to due to sun and wear and this as the shade it was most of the time while he was on board.

Bridge

Posted By: TheBridge | Posted on: Jun 8, 2010 - 8:20am
Total Posts: 318 | Joined: Nov 22, 2009 - 3:04pm

Bridge,

So Mr. Welford has said the 157 was green -- not gray, like most (or all) of the other boats in Ron 9 (at least in the pre-and-at-Rendova period, as seen in recently-posted color film footage and screen captures of same)? Interesting.

I'll respectfully disagree about your idea as to the cause of the "sagging" or warping of the painted-over plexiglass windshields -- I think it was most probably caused by the heat of the tropical sun, not by crews hanging onto them. Just my two cents on the topic.

BTW, your model's windshield is well-realized -- just needs the vertical bracing strips with their bolts (or screw-heads) on the forward facing. With your attention to detail, the windshield will look great when finished!

Posted By: Drew Cook | Posted on: Jun 8, 2010 - 5:37pm
Total Posts: 1306 | Joined: Oct 19, 2006 - 10:44am

SHIPS-2, the USN's official wartime camouflage instruction series, had this to say:

"All bright or shiny objects, no matter how insignificant, shall be painted, covered, or removed.

Glass windows shall be covered or removed, especially during the day in sunny weather, and at night when anticipating searchlight discovery.

Cheers,
John Snyder
White Ensign Models
http://WhiteEnsignModels.com

Posted By: John Snyder | Posted on: Jul 23, 2010 - 6:57am
Total Posts: 11 | Joined: Jul 6, 2010 - 2:20pm