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Forum Category: PT Boats of WWII
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Forum Name: PT Boats - General
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Topic: Elco flagstaff on stern
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As some of you know I'm slaving away at finishing my 1/72 PT boat model. I keep finding ways to add detail to it. My most recent dive into minutia revolves around the flagstaff on the stern of the boat. I have some good detail photos of the 109 and 117 boats but I'm trying to understand what all this is used for and how it works.

The photos I have show a hollow tube coming up from the deck. A power line is routed through the center. It appears that when the flag is flying back there another piece which holds the flag is inserted into the hollow tube and the bottom of the flag is tied to the base of that tube somehow.

So why the power going up the tube? I've seen some drawings but never photos of a light arrangement. Was there a marker light fixture that could be installed?

Does anyone have any clue about this?
Thanks
Dave

David Waples

Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: May 4, 2010 - 7:04pm
Total Posts: 1574 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm



Dave

You spend way too much time thinking about this stuff. I think you need a hobby (ha, ha). Someone will answer your question I am sure.............



Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: May 5, 2010 - 4:23am
Total Posts: 3144 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am



David, I am not an authority on this. The 167 did have a staff mounted near the smokescreen generator but we didn't have the top piece that held the flag so we didn't use it for that. It did make a good hand-hold for when you wanted to hang your rear over the rear of the boat.
I never saw one with electrical power connections. However, it seems to me there was a powerboat regulation that required all powerboats moored to a buoy to exhibit a white stern light. This defined the mooring radius as the boats swung around with the tide or wind. I don't remember where I got this explanation or if it merits consideration. Maybe someone else can amplify.



Posted By: BobPic | Posted on: May 5, 2010 - 10:15am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered



On at least the early 80' ELCOs, the stern light was attached to the top of a stanchion on the centerline aft. An electrical cable fed up from a fitting on deck next to the base of the stanchion and entered the hollow stanchion, then attached to the stern light.

[IMaGe]http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i204/alross2/sternlight.jpg[/IMaGe]

The top of the stern light was a socket into which the flagstaff was put. It was secured by the thumbscrew seen in the exploded parts diagram:

[IMaGe]http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i204/alross2/socket.jpg[/IMaGe]

Al Ross



Posted By: alross2 | Posted on: May 5, 2010 - 1:29pm
Total Posts: 897 | Joined: Oct 30, 2006 - 8:19pm



Thanks Bob & Al,
I started pouring through my books again and seeing things I had not seen before. I looked at a stern photo of the 109 and the 170 boat and you can clearly see that it has the same mounting and light that you have in the drawing Al. They at least kept the same design on the early 80' Elco's.

I have no idea when it changed, but Al, if you look at the stern of a late model PT on page 135 of your Allied Coastal Forces book you can see a clear shot of a completely different lighting system. Looking at boats 596, and 603 from your book, they also have this later style lighting system.

By the way, I'm not going to add lights to this boat.
That would be nuts. :-) But... in 1/35 scale....

Dave

David Waples

Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: May 5, 2010 - 7:25pm
Total Posts: 1574 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm




I have no idea when it changed, David Waples


The ELCO parts manual shows the same part number for boats through 563, plus 731-760. This edition of the parts manual does not include the 565 and later boats, however.

Al Ross



Posted By: alross2 | Posted on: May 5, 2010 - 7:44pm
Total Posts: 897 | Joined: Oct 30, 2006 - 8:19pm



Good eye David, the drawings available from Dick show the 565-624 design did away with the light built into the stanchion. A bracket mounted to the stanchion held a light similar in shape {cylindrical} to the mast anchor light.

Bob, was the smoke generator also used as the throne? Maybe Frank could incorporate this into one of his dioramas to add that special touch of realism... [:-grin-:]

Here's some sternlight drawing files on Dick's DVD:
ELCO_Roll_5535-2_72SCAN_00319.pdf
ELCO_Roll_5535-2_72SCAN_00320.pdf
ELCO_Roll_5535-2_72SCAN_00335.pdf
ELCO_Roll_5535-2_72SCAN_00336.pdf
ELCO_Roll_5535-2_72SCAN_00345.pdf
ELCO_Roll_5535-2_72SCAN_00346.pdf
ELCO_Roll_5535-2_72SCAN_00361.pdf
ELCO_Roll_5535-2_72SCAN_00368.pdf
ELCO_Roll_5535-2_72SCAN_00369.pdf




Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: May 6, 2010 - 2:45am
Total Posts: 1706 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am



Jeff

Don't laugh, I actually have a photo of a guy using this crapper set up on the stern of one of the boats. Funny as hell, but effective. I don't think I will be incorporating anyone using the crapper in any of my Diorama'a any time soon.



Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: May 6, 2010 - 4:02am
Total Posts: 3144 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am



That is excellent information gents. Thanks for sharing that. I just finished modeling the flagstaff with light bracket thingie. My whole punch isn't small enough to do lightening holes in 1/72 for the bracket. But I think it's going to look pretty sharp. Thinking about adding the upper part of the flagstaff and flag. No crapper though.

When I get back to the 1/48 model I will put a little more detail into that.. Not the crapper though.

Also last night assembled the .50's and the 20mm. I'm very glad I switched to the John Haynes 20mm set. It's a world of difference over the kit gun. Getting closer!

Take care
Dave



David Waples

Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: May 6, 2010 - 5:07am
Total Posts: 1574 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm



We had a crapper made from a wooden ammunition box. We cut a hole in the side - the bottom was open. Mounted it on 2-2x4's which slipped under the smoke generator and hung over the side. Made a nice seat. We kept it in place when tied up at the bouy at the base. Took it off when we got underway. That beat hanging over the stern holding on to the light stanchion which you had to do if underway and nature called..

I recall one night on patrol. The Captain of the other boat we were with had a call of nature. He fell in off the stern. I remember turning on the light anf fishing him out. There were some funny times too. Our officers razzed him pretty good.

C. J. Willis

Posted By: CJ Willis | Posted on: May 6, 2010 - 3:28pm
Total Posts: 464 | Joined: Nov 5, 2006 - 5:02pm



Now that's hysterical. It makes perfect sense though. I'm imagining modeling a figure hanging his big bare ass off the back of the boat with a death grip on to the stanchon.

Frank, sounds like a great picture for Victor's next book.

Dave

David Waples

Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: May 6, 2010 - 9:08pm
Total Posts: 1574 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm



I have the photo, if Victor wants to use it.....................



Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: May 6, 2010 - 10:08pm
Total Posts: 3144 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am



Thanks CJ, that must have taken some getting used to. Were the heads in the boat the type you had to empty manually? I was wondering why the box arrangement was used.

I've seen that image, a man with glasses sitting on a box. Do you suppose he knew he was a Kodak moment star?

From flag staff to custom crapper, great topic drift!




Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: May 7, 2010 - 7:36am
Total Posts: 1706 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am



Jeff: We never used the below deck head. Too hot! When Patty Thomas and Francis Langford came to the base with Bob Hope , We were told by the skipper to remove the box and not use it while they were there. There is a very good picture of the set up in our Squadron 19 "Snuffy" book.

C. J. Willis

Posted By: CJ Willis | Posted on: May 7, 2010 - 8:17am
Total Posts: 464 | Joined: Nov 5, 2006 - 5:02pm



Thanks CJ, interesting "behind the scenes" stories as always.




Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: May 7, 2010 - 8:47am
Total Posts: 1706 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am