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» Forum Name: PT Boats - General
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» Topic:
Al Ross & group - Follow up on Atlantic PT Boat colors
http://www.ptboatforum.com/cgi-bin/MB2/netboardr.cgi?cid=101&fid=102&tid=1684
Greetings Al and all,
On the FSM forum I posted a question last year about the possible color of some Atlantic based PT Boats. I recently came across the attached photo of a sailor with ammo and if I remember correctly this was supposed to be a PT Boat. But I'm not convinced it is. But the color is interesting. Can you identify the boat? I'm wondering if the color is the same. I've also included a photo of the boats which was the basis of my original question.
[IMAGE]http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n27/David_Waples/PT%20BOATS/13624.jpg[/IMAGE]
[IMAGE]http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n27/David_Waples/PT%20BOATS/06-07-2009-09-24-01-250_edited-1.jpg[/IMAGE]
David Waples
Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Mar 2, 2010 - 5:23am
Total Posts: 1679 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm
Hi David,
That color shot is of one of the 77 footers used at Melville, Alex Johnson can verify that my statement is correct and accurate.
Garth
Posted By: TGConnelly | Posted on: Mar 2, 2010 - 5:57am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
Got to agree Garth, looks very much like the ship shown here.
[url]http://www.historylink101.com/ww2_navy/org/ships/TorpedoBoat/13626.html[/url]
Right down to the uniforms and depth charges.
Gary
Posted By: Gary Paulsen | Posted on: Mar 2, 2010 - 6:13am
Total Posts: 249 | Joined: Feb 14, 2009 - 6:31am
Thanks for the input guys. I'm having a hard time buying that this is a 77' Elco. The cabins and vent pipes don't match up. I was thinking that it might be one of the other PT's other than an Elco, or Higgins.
Dave
David Waples
Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Mar 2, 2010 - 6:21am
Total Posts: 1679 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm
You know something guys ... I had a closer look at that photo, could it be like the 140 or 139?
i:77ftrs/pt66underway.html
Look at this photo and you might see a similarity with the color shot.
Posted By: TGConnelly | Posted on: Mar 2, 2010 - 7:32am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
David,
You might be right.
Look at the color shot of the 314 on History101 ... the positioning of the depth charges is a match for the 314 ...
But, if you also look at the color shot of the 20mm on board a 77 footer, it also is similar too - I mean the positioning of the MARK 6 depth charges.
But, hey, ya know - I could be wrong ................
Garth
Posted By: TGConnelly | Posted on: Mar 2, 2010 - 7:40am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
On the HistoryLink101 link shown above, the hull number of the boat is painted on the 20mm magazine - I can't read it on my screen but will run the print through photoshop at lunch and see if I can enhance it enough to read the number.
Jerry
Jerry Beasley
Posted By: Jerry Beasley | Posted on: Mar 2, 2010 - 8:07am
Total Posts: 89 | Joined: Jan 9, 2008 - 4:27pm
DAve and Garth,
Must be getting close to something. The color shot Dave posted is #13624 from the naval slide collection at the national archives. The link I posted is a shot #13626 and shot #13625 is a photo of PT 140.
[url]http://www.historylink101.com/ww2_navy/org/ships/TorpedoBoat/13625.html[/url]
Coincidence? Will keep looking.
Gary
Posted By: Gary Paulsen | Posted on: Mar 2, 2010 - 8:09am
Total Posts: 249 | Joined: Feb 14, 2009 - 6:31am
Ah, my first gut-feeling was on target. Good. I might be still good at this stuff.
Posted By: TGConnelly | Posted on: Mar 2, 2010 - 8:15am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
David;
The 77' Elco in question is PT 62 RON 4 or 5, you can see this painted on the 20mm magazine the sailor is holding. The early 80' Elco is PT 107 RON 5. Here are the photos in order of the website Gary posted:
1. PT 314 RON 4 near Melville.
2. PT 140 RON 4 near Melville at speed.
3.PT 62 20mm gunnery exercise.
4. Stbd side .50 cal mount PT 107 RON 5.
5. Smoke screen looks like a 314 series(probably 314, 315, 316, or 317, or RON 24 boats, but can't be sure) or later 80' Elco, looking at the engine hatch the crewman is leaning on.
6. PT 463 RON 31 Lake Ponchatrain, La.
7. Another RON 31 boat Lake Ponchatrain, La
8. Probably a RON 4 or 5 boat, can't tell.
9.RON 13 boats
10 PT 536 RON 37
11. PT 333 RON 24 "The Green Beast"
12.PT 332 RON 24
13. PT 333 RON 24 "The Green Beast"
14.PT 333 RON 24 "The Green Beast"
15. LT. Ed Pope watches crewman paint another tally mark on PT 134 RON 25
16 PT 129 and PT 130 "New Guinea Krud" RON 8
17.The photo with the rockets is probably an LCT(R). When I get home, I can tell you the paint colors, as per the Testors FS system.
18. RON 31 or RON 32 boat underway at Kerama Retto. These were the only Higgins squadron assigned to Okinawa.
hope this helps.
Take care,
TED
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Mar 2, 2010 - 8:22am
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
Ted jumped me there while I was working on the photograph - it is indeed PT62 (Ted do I get partial credit for an assist)? Ted either has better eyes or a better photo to start with, or maybe both.[:-rdo-:]
Jerry Beasley
Posted By: Jerry Beasley | Posted on: Mar 2, 2010 - 8:45am
Total Posts: 89 | Joined: Jan 9, 2008 - 4:27pm
Jerry;
1/2 credit is yours!
These photos have been out for awhile, PTHQ does have some more of other boats, but as we all know color photos are very rare.
Take care,
TED
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Mar 2, 2010 - 10:18am
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
The guy with the ammo is on an 80' ELCO. If you look on the far right of the photo, you will see the very aft end of the day cabin. The flat surface with the grab rail on top is the Stewart Warner heater. Also, note the deadlight just beneath his foot. The 77' boats did not have deadlights in this location but the ELCO drawings for the 80' boat show one here, just opposite the heater.
Despite the stenciling on the 20mm magazine, this is not PT62; rather, it is an 80' ELCO. The identifying characteristics are the shape of the depression rail, the position of the two 20mm ready service lockers, and the shape of the cleat near the 20mm pedestal. On a 77' ELCO, the depression rail was symmetrical because of the side by side turrets; the trunk cabin went all the way to the aft end of the engineroom hatch and was nearly as wide as the space between the cowl vents, so there would not be any space for the ready service lockers as shown in the photo; and, the 77' ELCO had a bollard in the same general location as the cleat on the 80' boat, but it was shaped like two thin teardrops attached to a ball on a pedestal. That on the 80 looked like a pipe with gull-wings coming out of its sides at the top.
I can post graphics to illustrate if you guys want.
Al
Posted By: alross2 | Posted on: Mar 2, 2010 - 1:29pm
Total Posts: 993 | Joined: Oct 30, 2006 - 8:19pm
THANKS, AL!
Will
Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Mar 2, 2010 - 2:37pm
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm
Well,
If it is an 80 footer, then, if you go by the fact that since it is from the same time from when the color shots were taken, then it could be the 140 or the 314.
My EDUCATED guess is that it's the 314.
Garth
Posted By: TGConnelly | Posted on: Mar 2, 2010 - 3:59pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
Al;
I really knew that. This is probably a RON 5 80' footer, maybe 107 like the rest of the color photos. 77' ELCO's did not have the rounded depression rails and did not have double 20 mm ready service lockers. The PT 62 20mm magazine was borrowed just for the op.
Garth;
The 77' ELCO in the bottom three color photos on your website really is PT 62
as she was the only 77' ELCO with flat side .50 cal depression shields around the turrrets, if you want I can supply a B/W photo to support this.
I am a supportive friend to both of you, for the sake of this board move on or carry it elsewhere. Do I make my point?
All the best to both of you.
Take care,
TED
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Mar 2, 2010 - 4:28pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
Al,
Thanks for clarifying the details of the pictures. There's probably no way to tie the color in the pictures to the boats assigned to Europe. And reviewing boat assignments no boat this old would have been in Europe. Looking at that one and others in the web link there is a heavy blue undertone to all of them. Just wondering if I had stumbled on to something but I'm thinnking not.
With respect to the first picture is it safe to assume that this boat was not in the Pacific if it were sporting the heater? I thought these were removed before sent to the pacific. I'm also curious about the white markings on the depth charges. Do you have any idea what that's about? Is it for training purposes?
Thanks
Dave
David Waples
Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Mar 2, 2010 - 6:50pm
Total Posts: 1679 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm
Hi David,
I read this before in Motor Torpedo Boats Tactical Orders and Doctrine.
I copied it from the HNSA website. This section is about the depth charges. Jerry
4303. Condition of readiness.-During peacetime, depth charges if carried on board, will have pistol and booster mechanisms removed and placed in designated stowage. During wartime depth charges will be kept either in the "normal" condition or the "ready" condition. (See Armament Conditions of Readiness.)
Large white marks extending from the depth setting graduations on the pistol and to the outer periphery of each charge should be painted with corresponding large white numbers denoting depth settings. This will facilitate setting depths at night.
4304. Depth settings.-Normally the four forward charges should be kept set on 50 feet and the after four on 100 feet-depth of water permitting. This provides the best settings for the most likely encounter with enemy submarines, that of sighting his periscope close aboard or catching him on the surface at night. Under other conditions depth settings should be staggered among the charges on board. Charges should be dropped in rotation from each side working from forward aft. This will provide a pattern and tend to keep the boat on an even keel.
Here is another photo of a 77 foot Elco in the Solomons (Courtesy of Wayne Traxel) that shows the same markings on the DC in the background. Jerry
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/WayneTraxelcolor77ftelco.jpg[/image]
Jerry Gilmartin
Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Mar 2, 2010 - 6:56pm
Total Posts: 1472 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm
Excellent Jerry,
Thanks for the insight on the DC markings. I've looked at that picture before but had forgotten about it. I'm still perplexed about the heater on the boat.
Thanks again!
Dave
David Waples
Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Mar 2, 2010 - 7:38pm
Total Posts: 1679 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm
With respect to the first picture is it safe to assume that this boat was not in the Pacific if it were sporting the heater?
In my mind, assumptions are never safe... :-} For instance, in the oft published photo of the RON 9 boats being shipped to Panama, the closest boat has its heater still fitted. Was the heater removed during transit, in Panama, not at all, ...??
Al
Posted By: alross2 | Posted on: Mar 2, 2010 - 7:58pm
Total Posts: 993 | Joined: Oct 30, 2006 - 8:19pm
Al,
I had not noticed that before. I'll have to revisit those photos.
Dave
David Waples
Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Mar 2, 2010 - 8:31pm
Total Posts: 1679 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm
Ted,
Hi.
By all means ... yes, please post that photo ... I don't know how to, I tried to post one yesterday and failed.
Thank you.
Garth
Posted By: TGConnelly | Posted on: Mar 3, 2010 - 6:19am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
As to whether the box-like heating units on the Elco 80-footers, situated on the forward starboard corner of the engine room covers (at the aft starboard corner of the dayroom house) -- an educated guess, from all the clues gathered from the PT reading I've done, is that they were most probably removed and ended up on the beach, once the boats got to the combat area.
During the early days at Guadalcanal, the crews of the Elco 77-footers, and then the first arriving 80-foot boats, learned rather quickly that speed was of the essence when escaping and evading the Japanese destroyers and cruisers of the Tokyo Express. The crews were always trying to get more speed from their boats. Everything of any weight, extraneous to the actual operation of the boat in combat, was stripped to lighten it. Also, most of the crews felt that the 80-footers were not quite as fast as the 77-footers.
Many of the boats had their 250-pound 20mm gun armor shields removed. The portable furniture below decks, which was pretty much only (as far as I know), the two wooden bureaus in the captain and exec's cabins, were removed. Some boats removed the cockpit's rear armor bulkhead and wing -- reportedly by some skippers to equalize their exposure to shot and shell to the crew's -- but more logically, to save weight and/or facilitate movement in and out of the cockpit. I'm sure other uneccessary odds and ends of any weight were probably beached by various crews, too.
I don't know what the actual weight of the heating units on the 80' Elcos were (although with the veterans, incredibly talented historians, authors, researchers and modelers we are priviliged to have on this site, someone will probably come up with the figure), but why would a boat retain it's heater unit in the equatorial heat of the South Pacific? Just doesn't make sense, for dual practicality/weight-saving reasons.
I realize there are photos of the boats on board their trans-oceanic transports with heating units intact, and certainly you'd want a heater unit on a boat in the ETO and maybe the Med, but in the Pacific? Where speed meant survival, and you couldn't even sleep in the oven-like heat below decks due to the consistant 90%-100% heat?
Posted By: Drew Cook | Posted on: Mar 3, 2010 - 7:26am
Total Posts: 1306 | Joined: Oct 19, 2006 - 10:44am