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ť Forum Name: PT Boats - General
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ť Topic: Rendova Harbor PT Boat info 2009
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Just returned from the Solomons and some news for those that may make it out there to see the base area in Rendova Harbor.

-Place to stay in Munda: Agnes Lodge, who also have boats (crewed) one can rent for 1/2 day, or full day to visit Rendova.

- Dive Shop: Dive Munda in the lodge area, Graham and Jen, plus Sunga, Brain and Solomon. I had several excellent dives (and beers) with these folks.

Also, Agnes has wi-fi connection now, having it put in place as I was there.

Air Pacific has a great site, where you can book tickets to Henderson on Guadalcanal- via LAX/NADI/VILA/Henderson

Solomon Air has several flights to/from Munda each week.

Anyway, it was as always an interesting trip. I did not expect to look so much into PT Boats -as that was not my primary interest- yet due to the unreliability of one of my guides I ended up more focused on the PT area.

(Prior to getting started, the dive shop thinks there is a PT engine block on the reef on a dive site, over on the Munda side. I did not dive that site, so I did not know.)

Ashore on Bau Island, I was able to look around a bit more and compare some of the cement foundations to 1944 film footage, all the cement foundations there in the ville are remainders of the USN base.

Over on the point are more items such as a shower stall base (?) and such. I asked about the trees there too, the locals showed me the coconut trees that were there during the war. These trees had spike marks in the trunks where the Yanks ran wires from tree to tree.

The best tree though is what I named the "Wally Tree", this tree has very deep weathered letters carved into it spelling "WALLY". The locals said this was done by an American not them....(and no the locals do not put spikes into their trees, or carvings), as these are food and drinking sources, not for graffiti and such.

Either Bau or Pau Island was also said to have a small airstrip during the war, if any vets here can remember, please reply here- as many of the local elders there have passed on- and most of the younger generation are little interested in such matters.

The inlet in Bau is littered with debris on the bottom, bits of metal matting, barrels, an overturned landing barge (LCVP ?), with its ramp open. On the left side (East) of the bay when the water is clear you can see the outline of the PT Boat dock there. I already marked the other normal US Barge remains in a previous email. We also found spent .50 cal rounds on the coral below.

Using Google Earth on can see stone jetties on the West side of the inlet, both probably built by the base- the one furthest to the South, was probably for the PT drydocks that were positioned there.

The East end of Bau I was told was an "restricted area" during the war, and there are numerous concrete foundations down there too. There is said to by the remains of a "firing range" over to the North of the inlet across the island.

The diving was great for finds, however much of the deeper coral is dead, due to the Tsunami a couple years back-

Our finds, which were found under my direction from research I gathered :

Five Anchors, most with chain attached and in deeper water- I've no doubt all were used by PT Boats, or their support vessels, this due to location and type of anchor.

As the anchors where wedged in the coral in such a way- I do not think they intended to get them back. Two, maybe three were Danforths, the others much larger traditional types of anchor.

In addition to the anchors, we located two "possible" mooring sites (everything was marked and noted GPS wise, to avoid other claims of first discovery). One is a large amount of ss wire either coming out of some object on the sloping u/w shelf. The other was ss wire laced through several barrels on the bottom. They almost made a "wagon wheel shape", all full of something and (as mentioned) laced with wire one to the other.

We also located a PT Boat engine vent scoop, that is to be place outside the local dive shop...and I saw a glass cover of some sort that I have to have another here id for me...the debris in the 2008 site was much more exposed this year.

On our safety stop on the debris field, one of the dive shop staff while looking for buried wood, discovered something to like boat ribs of wood, several .50 cal rounds, a .45 cal pistol round and lots of wood bits (again like 2008), with ss and monel screws in them.

The find which served a reminder that this was from the war, was the remains of a old boot sole that was under the sand and wood bits, next to it was a probable human bone. If anyone knows which PT Boat (117 or 164) had the KIA fatalities let me know, so I can pass it on to the dive shop.

Lots more to do still as far as marking the base area- there was even a cemetery either on Bau, or Rendova. I did not have time to find its location. The bodies there were said to be moved to Mundas large US cemetery, then the bodies were removed to the USA, or PI and re-buried.

In Munda, one can see the overgrown US cemetery, in 2008 some locals cleared a piece to plant their food gardens. In the clearing one could see rows of pits were the dead once rested.

There is some local movement by a former US peace Corps chap who married a local lady, to try to and get the S.I. government to preserve Lumbari Island (JFK base), and Rendova Harbor as a historical site/eco lodge etc....I doubt if much will come of it, but I will include his snail mail address later.

I can be reached on this post, if you are interested in going to Rendova, I will try to help- if you want to ask questions- some I will be happy to help, but I recommend you go yourself, you will not be disappointed. The Dive shop will do what they can to help you I am sure, but if you want to sit back and have myself, or them do your research for you- "won't happen".

Also, if you are thinking to sail into the harbor and simply collect parts and such from the sea bottom, or base area, this has been anticipated- and the locals told to watch for such acts, it would help to read the "Solomons relic act of 1980" and work from there.

Regards-

Shane E.

Posted By: Shaneo2 | Posted on: Nov 24, 2009 - 8:13pm
Total Posts: 147 | Joined: Apr 17, 2008 - 10:19pm

The US ex pat I mentioned above is:

Mr. Dennis McAdams
Hopono Village, Rendova Is.
P.O. Box #157, Munda
New Georgia Island
Western Province
Solomon Islands

He is married to Effie, whose father John Z. Kary was involved with the rescue of JFK's men from the PT 109.

As mentioned above, Dennis is trying to get some NGO's and the Solomon Govt. to establish some sort of eco lodge on Lumbari Is., with protection for the Island and harbor area (?)

Having seen the corruption and total apathy of the Solomon Islanders and the apathy of the US government towards our US "Missing in Action" in the Solomons- I really do not expect much from either of those governments, but I wish him luck.

Posted By: Shaneo2 | Posted on: Dec 1, 2009 - 3:22pm
Total Posts: 147 | Joined: Apr 17, 2008 - 10:19pm

Shane,
Do you know if anyone has checked the 31 boat site? (Long 14deg 45.0N Lat 120 deg 13.0E). Thanks, Mark

Posted By: Mark Culp | Posted on: Dec 18, 2009 - 7:32pm
Total Posts: 135 | Joined: Oct 15, 2006 - 2:56pm

Mark,

No info there I'm afraid.

Posted By: Shaneo2 | Posted on: Dec 20, 2009 - 6:05pm
Total Posts: 147 | Joined: Apr 17, 2008 - 10:19pm

Mark,
Are you refering to the PT 31 sunk near Subic bay P.I.

D.B.

D.buck

Posted By: David Buck | Posted on: Dec 21, 2009 - 3:30am
Total Posts: 332 | Joined: May 4, 2008 - 2:59am

The location given is the Manilla neighborhood.

Posted By: QM | Posted on: Dec 21, 2009 - 5:19am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

Shane,

The official PT boat history, "At Close Quarters," stated two men were killed in the August 1, 1943 Japanese air raid on Rendova..."One bomb blasted PT's 117 and 164 at their dock and killed two men."

I think the two KIA were probably crewmen on PT 164, the entire forepart of which was completely demolished.

Posted By: Drew Cook | Posted on: Dec 22, 2009 - 3:00pm
Total Posts: 1306 | Joined: Oct 19, 2006 - 10:44am

The "Wally Tree", on Bau Island in Rendova Harbor.

Posted By: Shaneo2 | Posted on: Dec 26, 2009 - 10:01am
Total Posts: 147 | Joined: Apr 17, 2008 - 10:19pm

Thanks Drew- I reckon it is the 164 also...

Also on the Wally Tree above, one can see another coconut tree on the extreme right with an example of "spike marks" on the tree, whereas the younger ones in the same photo have none.

If one were to do a study of the base, on suggestion would be to follow the trees still existing w/spike marks in them ...may lead to other areas of interest.

Regards-

Posted By: Shaneo2 | Posted on: Dec 26, 2009 - 10:07am
Total Posts: 147 | Joined: Apr 17, 2008 - 10:19pm

US mooring block on the reef East end of Bau Island. This is a odd one as it is on the reef itself. There was a WW-II navigation marker almost at this spot according to the USN chart.

In the background one can see Lumbari Island with the white sand beach- there is the point of Pau Island also in the photo.

I located another mooring block exactly the same in 2008 between Bau and Pau Island...this one was in about 15'-20' ft. of water, and was said to be the mooring block for US Barges.

[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/IMG_1016.jpg[/image]

Regards-

Shane

Posted By: Shaneo2 | Posted on: Dec 26, 2009 - 10:56am
Total Posts: 147 | Joined: Apr 17, 2008 - 10:19pm

Dive #2 under my direction, Brian from Dive Munda discovered this air scoop (?) from one of the PT's sunk in Rendova Harbor, also found was a probable interior light cover about 8'-10' ft away- both items barely poking out of the sand.

Regards-

Shane

Posted By: Shaneo2 | Posted on: Dec 26, 2009 - 11:10am
Total Posts: 147 | Joined: Apr 17, 2008 - 10:19pm

Shane;
Do you have any photos like these of Bau Island cove from beach looking out, and any of Lumbari beach looking out or water looking in? These would make a great back drop for PT boat models.
Take care,
TED

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Dec 26, 2009 - 12:48pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

That's cool Shane, and it's in remarkably good shape for being in salt water for so long.

Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Dec 30, 2009 - 2:25am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am

Jeff I was impressed with the condition also, remember only maybe 1/8" of a inch of the upper intakes circle was poking out of the sand - the light cover I found was barely exposed - it had no growth on it at all.

If I had a U/W metal detector I probably would have found hundreds of items under the sand where we were looking...

Posted By: Shaneo2 | Posted on: Dec 31, 2009 - 10:16am
Total Posts: 147 | Joined: Apr 17, 2008 - 10:19pm

Shane

I would love to have you contact me one day to say you found something a bit more substantial. The engines would be a dream as well as the Helms wheel, engine room panels, or dials and switches. Over the years, I am sure many items were recovered and sold for scrap or now sit in someones home. Still, as I told you, finding this air intake was a great find...........

Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Dec 31, 2009 - 11:15am
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am

Frank,

Maybe someday someone will do a proper survey and expedition of sorts out there. One local claims to have seen a engine block in the area we were diving- I never did. I heard of another story in 2008 of a wheel and something else from a "boat" that someone had- from which boat from where....??

There is mention of a Japanese submarine over on Kolombangara Is. that was blown up after the war for scrape- pieces are said to be still there...

The search for metals (post war) is why the 164 is in little bitty bits all over the bottom - mainly under the sand...Now I would bet the 117 would be more interesting- if someone could find it.

I heard tell of local divers who saw a wrecked ship in the harbor- to my knowledge the only wrecks that may be mistaken for a "ship" by locals (sea going vessel), would be one of the PT's...I do not know of all USN losses, but I have only seen the PT 164 & PT 117 in Rendova Harbor listed.

Dive Munda mentioned what they thought to be a PT engine block on the reef (sunken down some meters)...how they came to that conclusion I did not pursue- as my primary interest was other WW-II history there in the area.

Regards-

Posted By: Shaneo2 | Posted on: Dec 31, 2009 - 1:30pm
Total Posts: 147 | Joined: Apr 17, 2008 - 10:19pm

Talk about finding a needle in a haystack... good job! I bet it took some effort to release it from the sand.

I know funnels were widely used on all sorts of ships. I did an estimate of sorts using the gentleman on the rights's face width as a guide and it seems to match the dimensions of an ELCO funnel of about 7" tube and 14" funnel. This is with encrustation compensation of course. :D A very distinctive part of the boat, well done. Did it come up with the base ring attached?

Frank, to me a dream find, besides the wheel, would be a teardrop binnacle or perhaps a bow fairlead complete with light. You can bet that the fairlead/light would be mounted on a wall and rewired as a main fixture.

Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Dec 31, 2009 - 3:08pm
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am

The Funnel with measuring tape as a guide:

Another view from my photo collection.

Posted By: Shaneo2 | Posted on: Jan 1, 2010 - 10:38am
Total Posts: 147 | Joined: Apr 17, 2008 - 10:19pm

Jeff:

I think a Danforth Anchor would be pretty neat, but those Packard Engines, now that's the Holy Grail. At 2,950 pounds each, one might think they would be fairly easy to find, given exact locations of a boat sunk, but I have not heard anyone who has found them yet. This is one reason I really believe PT-109 was never found by Robert Ballard. The evidence to me anyway was not conclusive enough. Besides, was the so called torpedo tube ever brought to the surface to be cheked. Ok, so I do not want to go down that road again. Enough said.............

Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Jan 1, 2010 - 1:08pm
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am

I'm with you on the 109 Frank, it's only speculation unless a traceable part shows up.

Speaking of speculation, I guessed the funnel was from an ELCO boat. The lack of the upper clamp ring has me wondering though. It could be rotted away/encrusted with growth, hard to tell.

Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Jan 6, 2010 - 3:43am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am

Jeff;
With what you and Frank are saying, I also agree, to a certain extent. I agree we need more evidence. My question about this to everyone here is: Why was a torpedo tube found? With all the reserch we have done and all the veterans we have all talked to, why don't we know of a boat that lost its torpedo tube in this area? It would have been recorded somewhere, simply because they were just coming out of a shortage of torpedo tubes, and I believe they would have also been serialized. If they find an engine block at a later date, we have to hope 109 had all her original engines, which needed to be replaced, but I don't have written evidence that they actually were replaced. If they were replaced, it should have been during drydock/repair period in April- May 1943, when Larsen turned over with Thom and JFK. The engine serials would be entered in the 109's deck log and the log of the Tulagi engine shop. Now if these 2 logs were "lost" over the years, we can only go by the fact that 109 was the only boat lost in this area.
Damn! I hope I did not open that old can of worms again!!!!!! DISCLAIMER: THIS IS JUST MY TAKE ON THE BALLARD THING!
take care,
TED

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Jan 6, 2010 - 7:05am
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

Ted

There was nothing to indicate that anything was found pertaining to an Elco PT BOAT. My take on it remains the same as it did a few years back when Ballard made his claim. There was no substantial evidence that PT-109 was even found. I certainly understand that finding things on the Ocean Floor is a science in itself, and that finding small parts can be very difficult at best. Again, these PACKARD MARINE ENGINES weigh in at 2,950 pounds each. If the stern sank that night in 1943, after breaking away from the forward half of the boat, those engines would still be in the general area. This, as Ted says is my own opinion and I do not take it from any experts.

I did however speak with a good friend of mine who has been a diver for many years, even working with several groups finding sunken boats and treasures in the Newport, Rhode Island area. He feels as I do that not enough evidence was brought forward to make the claim that PT-109 was found. Until such time as the engines are located or another piece of evidence from an ELCO BOAT, and this is the key word here, "ELCO PT BOAT".with serial numbers, in my mind PT-109 was never located.................

Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Jan 6, 2010 - 8:00am
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am

On Monday landslides and a tsunami destroyed the homes of about one third of the population on the island of Rendova. There was a 7.2 magnitude earthquake somewhere nearby.

Posted By: QM | Posted on: Jan 6, 2010 - 12:31pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

In a way, I'm quite ambivalent about whether or not Robert Ballard actually found and photographed one of PT 109's torpedo tubes when he searched for the remains of the boat on the bottom of Blackett Straight in May of 2002, but, consider the following...

1) He was searching the bottom of Blackett Straight, where the boat was rammed, drifted, and sank,

2) The search area grid was plotted by calculating the probable area where the boat sank -- the southeastern end of Blackett Straight, near Ferguson Passage -- again, accounting for it's drift due to the currents,

3) The item found and photographed by Ballard's expedition was identified by a U.S. Naval historical expert as a Mark XVIII torpedo tube, the propeller and vanes of a torpedo (most probably a Mark VIII), were seen inside the tube, and the tube's deck-mounted training gear was also seen and I.D.'d,

4) As far as I know, no U.S. Navy vessel carrying a Mark XVIII torpedo tube -- other than PT 109 -- was lost in Blackett Straight,

So, my question is this: why WOULDN'T the rusted and encrusted Mark XVIII torpedo tube containing a torpedo, found and photographed by Ballard on the bottom of Blackett Straight in May of 2002, be from PT 109?

Do those who don't believe the tube photographed is from the 109 also believe Ballard was and is involved in a deliberate deception, as to WHERE the tube was found?

True, the entire object of the search WAS to find the remains of the 109, and they had an expensive expedition, a filmed documentary and a pre-existing book deal counting on Ballard's finding it, but...

Why would Ballard risk his public reputation on such a large hoax, and why would the U.S. Navy aid and abet him by I.D.ing the tube as a PT-103 class Mark XVIII torpedo tube, on the bottom of Blackett Straight, if it wasn't? I'm aware of several (ridiculous, to me) conspiracy theories about why they would, but -- come on!

The reason given for the fact that anything under the tube was buried was logical to me, as photos showed the undulating, shifting sand drifts on the bottom, and, if the Rendova area has suffered a 7.2 level earthquake in recent days, the sea floor is probably even more likely now to have shifted and covered even the tube.

Everybody has their own opinion, but to me, there are too many reasons for the stance that Ballard probably DID find (part of) the remains of PT 109 than for the one that he didn't, and has foisted a deliberate hoax on the public since 2002.

PT 109 was rammed, drifted, and sank somewhere in Blackett Straight on August 2, 1943. Her remains are still somewhere on the bottom. That much is undeniable.

Posted By: Drew Cook | Posted on: Jan 6, 2010 - 1:42pm
Total Posts: 1306 | Joined: Oct 19, 2006 - 10:44am

Damn, I did it again!
Drew;
I am not calling this a hoax, but as you said the money that was spent only to find a torpedo tube, without digging in the sand to see if some decking was left. The Navy officially calls the boat a war grave, which I am sure dictated alot of what Ballard could and could not do once he did discover the wreck, however, this is in theory only because more than likely Marney's body was swept away with the stbd turret as the DD cut through the boat near this point. Kirksey's body if it did remain with the aft portion of the boat sank with it, however he was topside also. Anyway, with money expended, why not the aft portion which on side scan sonar should provide a better return than a tube with a torpedo in it. I guess I just want more pieces to be found of the 109. I doubt they ever will, because as far as all that were involved, including the Navy, it is a closed subject. As for me I feel, Dr. Ballard, who is the best at what he does, did a better job investigating the Yorktown, which is also classified as a war grave.
The search for the 109, sort of reminded me of Geraldo Rivera's search for Al Capone's vault.
Alright Sorry guys, I am out of this one.
TED

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Jan 6, 2010 - 2:24pm
Total Posts: 3059 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

Drew and Ted both make excellent points. Personally, I tend to discount the "conspiracy" theories (which inevitably crop up surrounding anything of this significance).

We probably know as much now as we will ever know about the remains of the 109 boat.

...of course, who knows what some future technology or another giant quake in that area might turn up?

Will

Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Jan 7, 2010 - 11:50am
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm

I do not think he found it, but hey, what do I know? I think the wreck will be closer to shallow water, as she was last seen by two witnesses, a PBY pilot and by Evans, on a reef ..........

Garth

Posted By: TGConnelly | Posted on: Jan 7, 2010 - 12:06pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

Interesting how finds from the PT boats in Rendova Harbor morphs into discussion on the PT 109 expedition- it is great the conversation is keeping history alive.

That being said I hoped to show here the base area and some sites there of interest in regards to "all the other men" who served, not only PT boats but simply served in the Solomons.

I find the story of the PT-109 interesting, but in regards to PT boats, I find now: "any other" PT boat information/story in the Solomons "much more interesting" then the PT-109. The least interesting chapters for me in the book PT-105, was the one that included the story of the events of that night. I want to know about everyone else who was there, not drift back to a story to be told and retold, and retold...Yet if you write a book from there you have to include it I know.

On survival stories in the Solomons during the war, the PT-109 is remarkable, but having read of so many others like the USS Juneau, or the many, many aviators shot down there -it is just "one of many" - just so happens JFK went on to be president. President Nixon served in the Northern Solomon Islands too (Bougainville), although nothing as interesting as PT Boats.

One of the most irritating things for me in my questions to locals in the Solomons, was when I would ask about PT Boats or areas, how they would assume anything PT boat was "Kennedy"- I got to a point where when I felt some information (probably made up - or heard from someone, who knew someone, who knew someone, who was there) would turn to something Kennedy ...I would tell them"I am not interested in Kennedy, or the PT-109"...now what do you got ?

For anyone wanting to get interviews on/about PT's in the Solomons, just like our veterans the elders there are passing on- in a few years you will be faced with dealing with: someone who knew someone, who knew someone ...you know the rest...

I have never followed on the Ballard trip...I met a local there who claims to have been involved with the trip...once the conversation turned to PT-109 I excused myself and left. As far as finding anything at depth- wow I guess he was lucky. The sand shifts so much, even the dive sites I dived in Rendova. One area I saw in 2008 had 3x the items exposed as last year, my regret is not spending the whole dive there- instead it was just the safety stop- live and learn.

I do not have the support of University dept.'s, nor private donations for another something "JFK" discovery- I could never spend the kind of money Ballard did to find a tube...I find it farcical the USN declared it a "war grave" if that is true (?)...I wonder if the USN knows in doing this- that there are almost 3,000 US Missing in Action in the Solomons "still" to this day- and no, they are not all on ships sunk in Iron Bottom Sound- as some like to think.

With almost 3,000 US MIA in the Solomons, really did they declare a torpedo tube a war grave ? I can show them one war grave- a F4F Wildcat that was found with the pilots body aboard- I understand a RAMSI officer recovered the bones and brought them to Honiara to give to US consul there- the reason is: *the US Government does not send MIA recovery teams to the Solomons*....JPAC has the bones now thanks to a RAMSI police officer...meanwhile because we send "no teams" to the Solomons some other divers have bones from the site they are trying to return- but they get no reply from JPAC..myself and others suspect some locals may have the dog tags too - and possibly the pilots skull...and oh the wreck which is in less then 20m of water and the has not been declared it a "war grave" by either the USN or USMC.

The remains of the PT 164 are not a declared "war grave"- there is no signs/markers/nor memorials- and even still- is all the debris there from the PT-164 - I suspect it is from both boats?

I found another F4F upside down cockpit embedded into the earth in the jungle...the pilots canteen was in the wreckage...one local "slipped up" and said in pigin that the pilots "pistol" was found too....who bails out without their pistol over enemy territory ? When I asked further on the pistol- it was "lost or someone stole it"- which means either they did not know where it was, or did not want to show me.

You do not even have to look hard in the Solomons to find information on MIA- and yet the US Government sends no teams to look for the MIA and private donors paid millions to declare a supposed torpedo tube no one will ever see (except in pictures), a war grave- words escape me now.

I will try to post some more photos of on/about PT's here a disclaimer though: nothing is from the PT-109

Posted By: Shaneo2 | Posted on: Jan 9, 2010 - 12:06pm
Total Posts: 147 | Joined: Apr 17, 2008 - 10:19pm

Corrected the name spelling

Posted By: Shaneo2 | Posted on: Jan 9, 2010 - 12:39pm
Total Posts: 147 | Joined: Apr 17, 2008 - 10:19pm

One of the things I have learned over the years is that the story of PT-109 will always be with us. The contraversy of this crash will continue to make heated discussions with PT Boat Veterans, who insist Kennedy should have been Court Marshalled for the incident. One thing I can say that holds true: If Kennedy had not become President, PT BOATS would have never been as well known as they are today. The movie PT-109 brought the PT Boats into the public eye no doubt.

When one asks someone about a PT Boat, the first thing they say is :Wasn't that the boat Kennedy was on". It is then that I realize that PT-109 certainly did make an impact on our Nation, and no matter how many Exhibits I put on, this is how people discribe what a PT Boat is. I choose not to turn my Exhibits into a PT-109 affair, but how can you buck History, IT DID HAPPEN, and KENNEDY was there, and became President of the United States.

If not for that movie, my love affair with PT BOATS might not have happened. To this day, PT-109 remains the main reason I have continued to try and educate the public about the role of the PT Boats, Bases, and Tenders. It is this movie, that as a young ten year old, held my fasination and caused me to ask Dad to buy me one. I do get fustrated when people want to talk about PT-109 all the time, but again this is History, plain and simple. I have learned over the years that I represent all of those who served on the boats, and my main goal is to tell the story of the PT BOATS period....................

Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Jan 9, 2010 - 2:18pm
Total Posts: 3497 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am

Here we go again. First, I am not one of those who believe that Kennedy was at fault for the collision with a Japanese DD. I was out many of those nights when you could not see anything. In addition, did the CO of the DD see the PT in time to avoid a collision? His ship was disabled and he had to limp home. He could have lost his ship. I have always questioned why the other boats who saw the burning 109 did not proceed to the scene to see what was happening. There could have been a DD to finish off. There was definitely men to be rescued.

What did Kennedy do of a heroic nature? His rescue and the rescue of the remainder of the crew was made possible by a coast watcher and his local resident assistants. Kennedy was one of those rescued. The movie "PT 109" like "They Were Expendable" was part fiction. JFK was the beneficiary of a politically influential father who waged an intensive public relations campaign. He had what we called "PI". I do not know what influence Joe Kennedy had in the making of the movie. Joe Kennedy had owned a Hollywood movie studio. He had considerable influence in Hollywood.

Kennedy did not establish the reputation of PT's. Their reputation was established long before JFK.

Has anyone heard of brainwashing or possibly spin?

Posted By: QM | Posted on: Jan 9, 2010 - 5:56pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

Holy moly! I guess I'm the one who stirred up the PT 109 topic again.

I don't know what to say about this other than, for good or for bad, for better or for worse, that particular 80' Elco PT is, and always will be, THE most famous PT boat in the United States Navy.

I've always found the 109 story fascinating for several reasons, primarily because she was one of the first Elco 80-footers to engage in combat during the early days at Guadalcanal. After all, the boat WAS fought, in combat, by several different crews under several different skippers, around Guadalcanal, the Russell Islands, and Rendova.

While the 109 didn't have a particularly distinguished combat record compared to some of the other PTs, she DID become famous because of the story of her rather spectacular and unique end, and the subsequent evasion, survival and rescue of her crew behind enemy lines. To say that PT 109 "never would have been heard of" if her last skipper hadn't gone on to become President of the United States is nonsense -- anyone who was interested in World War II history, particularly anyone interested in PT boat history -- would have eventually read and studied the 109 saga, no matter who her last skipper had been.

The 109 story, of course, wouldn't have gotten the huge "play" it eventually did before the public if her last skipper hadn't been first, an Ambassador's son (who promoted the 109 story) and then, a charismatic young politician who rose to the Presidency, but... Audie Murphy wouldn't have been recognized as often, and been bemedaled as much, if he hadn't had very active and aggressive 3rd Infantry Division publicity officers. There were hundreds, if not thousands, of infantry soldiers who performed just as valiantly as Murphy did during the war -- who "have never been heard of" -- and never will.

Another reason the PT 109 story has held my interest has been Robert J. Donovan's well-researched-and-written book ("PT 109 - John F. Kennedy in World War II"). The book details a great deal of PT boat life, trivia and information, and presents a fascinating picture of PT life and ops in the Solomons at the time. JFK really isn't treated with kid gloves, and is in no way lionized or made iconic, by Donovan's book. He comes off as a pretty typical 26-year-old, albeit one with something of a "pedigree" and a Harvard education. The guy was a good enough boat handler to have been made a PT instructor at Melville (conspiracy theory -- "he was kept out of combat by his connections!"). While JFK was always demonstratively proud of having volunteered for and serving in the PTs -- and allowed the 109 story to be told and retold as he ascended in politics -- he was certainly never proud of losing his boat or two crewmen.

As far as the "war grave" BS concerning the found (or not) torpedo tube on the bottom of Blackett Straight by Ballard, this was straight from Teddy Kennedy (whom I never liked, nor respected) through the U.S. Navy. It is patent nonsense to seriously believe either Kirksey or Marney's remains are with, or even proximate, to what's left of the 109.

Anyway, I'll still mention PT 109 once in a while. For instance, along with Gene Kirkland, I now believe she probably carried black, unshaded boat numbers on her charthouse, port cockpit and starboard turret under JFK. What does it matter, you ask? Well...it's PT boat trivia, and we deal with that all the time here on the board. I'll always be interested in ALL the other PTs, their skippers and crews. I've learned a lot on this site about them, and sometimes pass on what I think, or have learned, also.

Apologies to those who can't stand to hear about the 109 or JFK any more. She's still the most famous PT boat of all time.

Posted By: Drew Cook | Posted on: Jan 9, 2010 - 9:20pm
Total Posts: 1306 | Joined: Oct 19, 2006 - 10:44am

The funnel mouth measured from my photos of the day:

Posted By: Shaneo2 | Posted on: Jan 10, 2010 - 10:49am
Total Posts: 147 | Joined: Apr 17, 2008 - 10:19pm

A thoughtful post, Drew. I think it sums up the feelings a lot of us have about the 109 "saga" and the boats in general.

Will

Will

Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Jan 10, 2010 - 10:53am
Total Posts: 1955 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 4:19pm

Light cover found poking out of the sand in Rendova Harbor. This was found 8'-10' feet from the funnel, which was barely exposed that day.

Regards-

Shane

Posted By: Shaneo2 | Posted on: Jan 10, 2010 - 10:53am
Total Posts: 147 | Joined: Apr 17, 2008 - 10:19pm

My dad was on the 164 when it was destroyed by a single bomb while at the dock. The 117 was also damaged at the same time. I am new to this but have more info. And as far as I know both men were killed on the 164. My dad died 8-02-78 and recieved 2 purple hearts from that incident. The second was after he survived the August 2 bombing, he was evacuated to a hospital vessel and that was also hit on or about the 6th if I remember his story correctly. There are existing photos of this incident. I will try to find them.

Mike Finn
My dad: William R. Finn
Radioman 1st class.

Posted By: Mikefinn | Posted on: Jan 25, 2010 - 3:55pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered